halbarz wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » palabana wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » It’s honestly hilarious that some people will excuse multiboxing as ok and are happy to leave it be cuz “well what can you do” despite all its harm, and yet rage that people using a tool that does nothing but provide objective, unbiased information that holds everyone on equal playing field, should be banned. It’s just wild My response in a spoiler because it's off topic.Ok let's ban multiboxing but do not prevent families and friends from playing in the same house. By the way, you can't prevent multiboxing. It's impossible. And if you try, you will also have to prevent friends and family from playing in the same house, using the same internet. This is just one of the examples. Multiboxers can bypass other counter measures just as easy. What Intrepid is trying to achieve is correct, it is only a matter of words that they chose. They decided to say "multiboxing is allowed" and that's what caused the multiboxing controversy. --- I'm fine with personal DPS meters, to be honest. But tell me, what game provides built in DPS meters while you're fighting a boss or any mobs out in the open? The question here is everyone is asking for DPS meters. However, most games usually provide training grounds of some sort for you to gauge your strength and not a real time DPS meter in the HUD. Best example is The Division 2's shooting range. I like that the best because you can play around with your builds, see your DPS and can choose the type of enemies as well as their levels. I'm not and have never been asking for just DPS measurements. DPS on its own is not that valuable a metric unless every boss fight is a tank-and-spank fight which would show a really godawful design team. Combat tracking, what I want, and what everyone here with sense is asking for, is the ability to objectively analyze encounters after the fact. Yes that includes who did the most and least damage. It also includes who took the most damage, who stood in stupid, who didn't cleanse when they should have, how often the tank lost aggro, how many times a player spread a debuff to another, how many times someone crit, how much overhealing the healers did, how high the uptime on key buffs were, how many times someone died. All of this information is necessary to understand what is going wrong in an encounter, or what is going right. Thankfully, it seems we will in fact have combat logs, so we will have combat tracking at least from third party sites that parse such information into an easily read format, which is what most of us want. I don't need real-time dps feedback, but I absolutely need a clear, coherent way to judge a build's effectiveness. "Trial and error" cannot occur without clear, detailed, and accurate feedback. I still disagree that you require logs and addons to analyze a fight, and frankly (my personal opinion) guilds that cannot figure out on their own when agro was lost, who stood wrong, when healing was off on a target, etc. and need an addon for this ... they are the problem not the game. Anyway, now that it is confirmed that there will be combat logs, you can analyze the information after the encounter. I hope this will please all the pro-meter folks Regarding trial and error, trial and error is a time investment, it is not impossible. It just requires you to know your class inside out, figure out what works and doesn't and what gear compliments the class, it's skills and it's combat style. Here again (in my personal opinion) if anyone claims this is ONLY possible with a tracker then it's not the game but the player. I do hope that and as said before: combat logs will help people after the encounter, and it seems to be a middle ground that everyone should be ok with.
Caeryl wrote: » palabana wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » It’s honestly hilarious that some people will excuse multiboxing as ok and are happy to leave it be cuz “well what can you do” despite all its harm, and yet rage that people using a tool that does nothing but provide objective, unbiased information that holds everyone on equal playing field, should be banned. It’s just wild My response in a spoiler because it's off topic.Ok let's ban multiboxing but do not prevent families and friends from playing in the same house. By the way, you can't prevent multiboxing. It's impossible. And if you try, you will also have to prevent friends and family from playing in the same house, using the same internet. This is just one of the examples. Multiboxers can bypass other counter measures just as easy. What Intrepid is trying to achieve is correct, it is only a matter of words that they chose. They decided to say "multiboxing is allowed" and that's what caused the multiboxing controversy. --- I'm fine with personal DPS meters, to be honest. But tell me, what game provides built in DPS meters while you're fighting a boss or any mobs out in the open? The question here is everyone is asking for DPS meters. However, most games usually provide training grounds of some sort for you to gauge your strength and not a real time DPS meter in the HUD. Best example is The Division 2's shooting range. I like that the best because you can play around with your builds, see your DPS and can choose the type of enemies as well as their levels. I'm not and have never been asking for just DPS measurements. DPS on its own is not that valuable a metric unless every boss fight is a tank-and-spank fight which would show a really godawful design team. Combat tracking, what I want, and what everyone here with sense is asking for, is the ability to objectively analyze encounters after the fact. Yes that includes who did the most and least damage. It also includes who took the most damage, who stood in stupid, who didn't cleanse when they should have, how often the tank lost aggro, how many times a player spread a debuff to another, how many times someone crit, how much overhealing the healers did, how high the uptime on key buffs were, how many times someone died. All of this information is necessary to understand what is going wrong in an encounter, or what is going right. Thankfully, it seems we will in fact have combat logs, so we will have combat tracking at least from third party sites that parse such information into an easily read format, which is what most of us want. I don't need real-time dps feedback, but I absolutely need a clear, coherent way to judge a build's effectiveness. "Trial and error" cannot occur without clear, detailed, and accurate feedback.
palabana wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » It’s honestly hilarious that some people will excuse multiboxing as ok and are happy to leave it be cuz “well what can you do” despite all its harm, and yet rage that people using a tool that does nothing but provide objective, unbiased information that holds everyone on equal playing field, should be banned. It’s just wild My response in a spoiler because it's off topic.Ok let's ban multiboxing but do not prevent families and friends from playing in the same house. By the way, you can't prevent multiboxing. It's impossible. And if you try, you will also have to prevent friends and family from playing in the same house, using the same internet. This is just one of the examples. Multiboxers can bypass other counter measures just as easy. What Intrepid is trying to achieve is correct, it is only a matter of words that they chose. They decided to say "multiboxing is allowed" and that's what caused the multiboxing controversy. --- I'm fine with personal DPS meters, to be honest. But tell me, what game provides built in DPS meters while you're fighting a boss or any mobs out in the open? The question here is everyone is asking for DPS meters. However, most games usually provide training grounds of some sort for you to gauge your strength and not a real time DPS meter in the HUD. Best example is The Division 2's shooting range. I like that the best because you can play around with your builds, see your DPS and can choose the type of enemies as well as their levels.
Caeryl wrote: » It’s honestly hilarious that some people will excuse multiboxing as ok and are happy to leave it be cuz “well what can you do” despite all its harm, and yet rage that people using a tool that does nothing but provide objective, unbiased information that holds everyone on equal playing field, should be banned. It’s just wild
Caeryl wrote: » halbarz wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » palabana wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » It’s honestly hilarious that some people will excuse multiboxing as ok and are happy to leave it be cuz “well what can you do” despite all its harm, and yet rage that people using a tool that does nothing but provide objective, unbiased information that holds everyone on equal playing field, should be banned. It’s just wild My response in a spoiler because it's off topic.Ok let's ban multiboxing but do not prevent families and friends from playing in the same house. By the way, you can't prevent multiboxing. It's impossible. And if you try, you will also have to prevent friends and family from playing in the same house, using the same internet. This is just one of the examples. Multiboxers can bypass other counter measures just as easy. What Intrepid is trying to achieve is correct, it is only a matter of words that they chose. They decided to say "multiboxing is allowed" and that's what caused the multiboxing controversy. --- I'm fine with personal DPS meters, to be honest. But tell me, what game provides built in DPS meters while you're fighting a boss or any mobs out in the open? The question here is everyone is asking for DPS meters. However, most games usually provide training grounds of some sort for you to gauge your strength and not a real time DPS meter in the HUD. Best example is The Division 2's shooting range. I like that the best because you can play around with your builds, see your DPS and can choose the type of enemies as well as their levels. I'm not and have never been asking for just DPS measurements. DPS on its own is not that valuable a metric unless every boss fight is a tank-and-spank fight which would show a really godawful design team. Combat tracking, what I want, and what everyone here with sense is asking for, is the ability to objectively analyze encounters after the fact. Yes that includes who did the most and least damage. It also includes who took the most damage, who stood in stupid, who didn't cleanse when they should have, how often the tank lost aggro, how many times a player spread a debuff to another, how many times someone crit, how much overhealing the healers did, how high the uptime on key buffs were, how many times someone died. All of this information is necessary to understand what is going wrong in an encounter, or what is going right. Thankfully, it seems we will in fact have combat logs, so we will have combat tracking at least from third party sites that parse such information into an easily read format, which is what most of us want. I don't need real-time dps feedback, but I absolutely need a clear, coherent way to judge a build's effectiveness. "Trial and error" cannot occur without clear, detailed, and accurate feedback. I still disagree that you require logs and addons to analyze a fight, and frankly (my personal opinion) guilds that cannot figure out on their own when agro was lost, who stood wrong, when healing was off on a target, etc. and need an addon for this ... they are the problem not the game. Anyway, now that it is confirmed that there will be combat logs, you can analyze the information after the encounter. I hope this will please all the pro-meter folks Regarding trial and error, trial and error is a time investment, it is not impossible. It just requires you to know your class inside out, figure out what works and doesn't and what gear compliments the class, it's skills and it's combat style. Here again (in my personal opinion) if anyone claims this is ONLY possible with a tracker then it's not the game but the player. I do hope that and as said before: combat logs will help people after the encounter, and it seems to be a middle ground that everyone should be ok with. You clearly have no idea how much combat trackers support every aspect of analyzing a game
halbarz wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » halbarz wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » palabana wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » It’s honestly hilarious that some people will excuse multiboxing as ok and are happy to leave it be cuz “well what can you do” despite all its harm, and yet rage that people using a tool that does nothing but provide objective, unbiased information that holds everyone on equal playing field, should be banned. It’s just wild My response in a spoiler because it's off topic.Ok let's ban multiboxing but do not prevent families and friends from playing in the same house. By the way, you can't prevent multiboxing. It's impossible. And if you try, you will also have to prevent friends and family from playing in the same house, using the same internet. This is just one of the examples. Multiboxers can bypass other counter measures just as easy. What Intrepid is trying to achieve is correct, it is only a matter of words that they chose. They decided to say "multiboxing is allowed" and that's what caused the multiboxing controversy. --- I'm fine with personal DPS meters, to be honest. But tell me, what game provides built in DPS meters while you're fighting a boss or any mobs out in the open? The question here is everyone is asking for DPS meters. However, most games usually provide training grounds of some sort for you to gauge your strength and not a real time DPS meter in the HUD. Best example is The Division 2's shooting range. I like that the best because you can play around with your builds, see your DPS and can choose the type of enemies as well as their levels. I'm not and have never been asking for just DPS measurements. DPS on its own is not that valuable a metric unless every boss fight is a tank-and-spank fight which would show a really godawful design team. Combat tracking, what I want, and what everyone here with sense is asking for, is the ability to objectively analyze encounters after the fact. Yes that includes who did the most and least damage. It also includes who took the most damage, who stood in stupid, who didn't cleanse when they should have, how often the tank lost aggro, how many times a player spread a debuff to another, how many times someone crit, how much overhealing the healers did, how high the uptime on key buffs were, how many times someone died. All of this information is necessary to understand what is going wrong in an encounter, or what is going right. Thankfully, it seems we will in fact have combat logs, so we will have combat tracking at least from third party sites that parse such information into an easily read format, which is what most of us want. I don't need real-time dps feedback, but I absolutely need a clear, coherent way to judge a build's effectiveness. "Trial and error" cannot occur without clear, detailed, and accurate feedback. I still disagree that you require logs and addons to analyze a fight, and frankly (my personal opinion) guilds that cannot figure out on their own when agro was lost, who stood wrong, when healing was off on a target, etc. and need an addon for this ... they are the problem not the game. Anyway, now that it is confirmed that there will be combat logs, you can analyze the information after the encounter. I hope this will please all the pro-meter folks Regarding trial and error, trial and error is a time investment, it is not impossible. It just requires you to know your class inside out, figure out what works and doesn't and what gear compliments the class, it's skills and it's combat style. Here again (in my personal opinion) if anyone claims this is ONLY possible with a tracker then it's not the game but the player. I do hope that and as said before: combat logs will help people after the encounter, and it seems to be a middle ground that everyone should be ok with. You clearly have no idea how much combat trackers support every aspect of analyzing a game You do make me wonder if you ever did a raid without one xD or if you ever made your own build instead of copy-pasting one from the interwebs. If you give me a comment like that. Each has their opinion, and as I mentioned in my post (it is my opinion) because that is how I cleared my raids, dungeons, etc. How I optimized my class and How I played. Nothing wrong with that. Am I better than you? No, we just have our own style and our own opinion. all I am saying is that a lot of things you mentioned do not require a meter/parser but a keen eye and again that is my opinion I also sometimes check builds people made for ESO for when it comes to PvP as that is what I enjoy the most there (if it doesn't lag hihi) + I'm not really interested in that game to spent hours up on hours trying things for that I have other games : There are combat log you have your middle ground be happy with it Steven said no addons/meters, he mentioned that there would be logs. With this people like yourself can analyze these or use parsers. In the end, everyone wins
halbarz wrote: » You do make me wonder if you ever did a raid without one
Caeryl wrote: » I'm not and have never been asking for just DPS measurements. DPS on its own is not that valuable a metric unless every boss fight is a tank-and-spank fight which would show a really godawful design team. Combat tracking, what I want, and what everyone here with sense is asking for, is the ability to objectively analyze encounters after the fact. Yes that includes who did the most and least damage. It also includes who took the most damage, who stood in stupid, who didn't cleanse when they should have, how often the tank lost aggro, how many times a player spread a debuff to another, how many times someone crit, how much overhealing the healers did, how high the uptime on key buffs were, how many times someone died. All of this information is necessary to understand what is going wrong in an encounter, or what is going right. Thankfully, it seems we will in fact have combat logs, so we will have combat tracking at least from third party sites that parse such information into an easily read format, which is what most of us want. I don't need real-time dps feedback, but I absolutely need a clear, coherent way to judge a build's effectiveness. "Trial and error" cannot occur without clear, detailed, and accurate feedback.
palabana wrote: » In The Division 2, at the end of each missions or raids, there will be a detailed breakdown of each players performance. A combat log, basically. How many kills, damage done, damage taken, healing done, combos, killstreaks, highest damage of the skills that you use, highest healing done by your skills, and so on. I liked the post-mission logs because sometimes I thought that I was useful in killing the enemies, but it turns out I had the lowest kill count and lowest DPS of all. But I make those up by having the most (significant) healing done and revives.
screwtape wrote: » Watched an interesting video recently that went into depth about how players will optimize fun out of the game simply to "be the best" or perform better. Sure some min-maxers will always do this, because that is what brings them joy. But DPS meters tend to cause situations like "Accepting DPS 40K+ for raid no others", so for people to compete they play what performs best and not what they have fun playing. Because if they don't play the meta for best DPS they will not be able to get into groups for X content. Yes this hinders min-maxers, but they still can find ways to measure their uber awesomeness without DPS meters. People who want to play to have fun can't undo DPS meter impact.
PlagueMonk wrote: » screwtape wrote: » Watched an interesting video recently that went into depth about how players will optimize fun out of the game simply to "be the best" or perform better. Sure some min-maxers will always do this, because that is what brings them joy. But DPS meters tend to cause situations like "Accepting DPS 40K+ for raid no others", so for people to compete they play what performs best and not what they have fun playing. Because if they don't play the meta for best DPS they will not be able to get into groups for X content. Yes this hinders min-maxers, but they still can find ways to measure their uber awesomeness without DPS meters. People who want to play to have fun can't undo DPS meter impact. Guilty as charged. Now why did I do that? Only because of exactly what you mentioned. When I wasn't getting into raids because my built wasn't optimal enough, I was pretty much forced into the flavor of the month build so I could participate in the upper level content. I enjoyed being included finally but I did not like the path I had to walk for that inclusion.
Damokles wrote: » I am gone for two weeks, and the Damage Meter discussion came up again?!? DID WE NOT BLEED ENOUGH?!?
Bolorny wrote: » Just NO addons whatsoever.
ForbiddenZex wrote: » Hot take: this discussion doesnt really matter
HankScorpio wrote: » Damage meter's are definitely a double edged sword. Its obviously nice to see who is lacking and also how to better optimize your own dps. This however leads into cookie cutter metas, which im still there will still be, but I think not having them will allow more diversity in specs which im looking forward to.
StevenSharif wrote: » Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well. My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️
Grimzar wrote: » looks like ppl can't enjoy the game without min-maxing everything. I want the game where diversity matters, not the game where everyone will roll the same build because dps meter shows that this configuration of skills and augments do 5% more damage than others...
Grimzar wrote: » dps-meter pros: - you can see your dps and potentially improve cons: - tool for shaming others - for boosting someones egos, bragging about numbers - cuts diversity, most of the ppl will want to roll top dps class - takes fun away, encounters doesn't matters only numbers, charts and diagrams
