DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

Noaani

Grimzar wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

I don't use a combat tracker to track my DPS

well topic is about damage meter

There is no such thing.

Every "damage meter" can be easily adjusted (some easier than others) to pick up any type of information, rather than just damage, and display it in what ever style is desired. As such, every "damage meter" is a combat tracker set to output only damage information.

Maybe I don't rly get it because for me game is a game, a time to relax and have some fun with friends, not another job to analyze stuff how to be "optimal" in virtual world.

This is why my suggestion has always been to add it in to the game in a way where a player like you doesn't ever need to see or interact with it at all.

To some people, their use is enjoyable and relaxing - and saying that they shouldn't have it is about the same as saying that you should have to use it.

My argument here is not to make it so that everyone has to use it - it is to make it so that those that want it have it, and those that don't are able to ignore (or even be oblivious to) it even existing.

Yuyukoyay

Well what people are saying is more along the lines of we don't even want that to be an option because then guilds will require it in dungeons and raids. Ya that is probably a fair criticism.

Noaani

BlackBrony wrote: »

It would be cool if we could also have some other stuff to save us time:

- I'd love to have an Event tracker so I can sorta know when a boss is about to do certain mechanic, it would save us a lot of time and trouble
- Resource tracker, so I can put where the gatherable nodes usually spawn. This way we won't waste time running around
- Player tracker. Something that let's us know when to cleanse a player

All of this would make gameplay better imo and improve everyone's performance.

A combat tracker only tells you things that have already happened. Literally all it does is go through a text file of things that have happened, pull the bits of informaiton that you tell it to, and then put that info in charts and stuff for you.

If it were to tell you what is about to happen (as per DBM and such) it would then be a combat assistant. Literally no one is asking for a combat assistant.

You can ask a combat tracker to pull up information on what you have harvested, or information on who has clensed who in your group or raid, but they can't predict the future.

Noaani

Adlehyde wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

It would be cool if we could also have some other stuff to save us time:

- I'd love to have an Event tracker so I can sorta know when a boss is about to do certain mechanic, it would save us a lot of time and trouble
- Resource tracker, so I can put where the gatherable nodes usually spawn. This way we won't waste time running around
- Player tracker. Something that let's us know when to cleanse a player

All of this would make gameplay better imo and improve everyone's performance.

I hope that's sarcasm, because that's gonna be a hard pass. Every one of those things is. "how can the game play itself a little bit more for me

I would say it is ignorance rather than sarcasm.

In the same way some people think that multiboxing as it exists in WoW is the only way multiboxing exists, usually the same people also think DBM and such are "DPS meters", rather than combat assistants, and have no real idea what an actual combat ttracker is or does.

Adlehyde

My argument here is not to make it so that everyone has to use it - it is to make it so that those that want it have it, and those that don't are able to ignore (or even be oblivious to) it even existing.

I hear this often, and it's just incredibly naive. The moment anyone CAN use it, everyone is immediately held to the standards set by those who do. It is unavoidable. It has never not happened in a a game where parsing was possible. This is just not a good argument.

Noaani

Adlehyde wrote: »

I hear this often, and it's just incredibly naive. The moment anyone CAN use it, everyone is immediately held to the standards set by those who do. It is unavoidable. It has never not happened in a a game where parsing was possible. This is just not a good argument.

You are right that this has not happened in a game where parsing has been possible, that is not a fact I would dispute.

The problem is, in all games that have had parsing available in them, it has been something that has been available to every player equally. Anyone can download a combat tracker, and so everyone should.

If combat trackers remain the domain of third partes in Ashes (and it is naive to think they won't), then Ashes will be exactly the same as every other game in this regard. You can't expect different bahavior from the playerbase from exactly the same actions from the developers.

If you want different behavior from your playerbase in relation to combat trackers, then you have to have combat trackers be different than they are in every other game. This is why my suggestion has always been to have them implemented in the game client, as a guild perk, but in a way where most guilds would have something else they would rather take (additional guild member slots, as an example). Further, the idea is to make it so that these combat trackers only work on players that are members of that guild - and if you group with such a member, they can not track your combat at all.

In a situation like this, the basics of who can use a combat tracker has gone from literally everyone, to very few people. People that are not in a guild like this have no way of tracking their combat, and no way of tracking other players combat.

There is no need to feel beholden to a tool that literally no one is able to use on you.

As far as I am concerned, literally the only way to break away from how combat tracker use becomes unavoidable is to alter the way they are implemented. You really can't expect different results from doing the same thing over and over again - and every game has done the same thing over and over again, with third party combat trackers that are freely available to all players that want them being the way to parse.

Songcaller

So...in a PvX Game you want to make the Hardcore PvE Players (Who will become the most dominant PvP Players because the gear is PvX) also have the ability to be the Min/Maxers who would also become dominant in PvP because as a Raid Team they would be at the epitome of the combat traits, and expect the situation to be perfectly fine and balanced?

The worst implementation would be to limit who has access to it. Either everyone should have it or no-one should have it. If only select people have it, especially those who are most likely to maximise the highest tiered drops from the PvE Content, then those Hardcore PvE Players would be Overpowered in Gear, Overpowered in Group Content and Overpowered in PvP.

Adlehyde

In steven's earlier post, the one where he complimented your arugments in favor of meters, he made the statement that he was pretty confident they will be able to prevent third party software from tracking in the first place. I mostly take this to mean that there's likely not going to be a battle log at all, so in that regard, it would be immediately different to how all the others have done it. parsers, Act in particular, tend to operate by just scraping the battle log as I understand it. Not that it's impossible to function without one, but the software would have to be quite a bit more invasive, and thus easier to track and action.

BTW, it isn't that I particularly disagree with your stance, but the particular arguments that can be summed up as, essentially, only those who want to use them will, and those that don't, won't need to, that particular argument is never a good argument, because it is fundamentally flawed. That's why it'st he only part I bothered to quote.

Caeryl

Adlehyde wrote: »

In steven's earlier post, the one where he complimented your arugments in favor of meters, he made the statement that he was pretty confident they will be able to prevent third party software from tracking in the first place.

And then he said there would be combat logs. The truth of those statements are mutually exclusive.

If we have combat logs, we will thankfully have combat trackers.

From everything I’ve heard from Steven, it seems like he only views combat trackers as real-time info displays, rather than the post-fight analyzers that they are.

Noaani

Adlehyde wrote: »

In steven's earlier post, the one where he complimented your arugments in favor of meters, he made the statement that he was pretty confident they will be able to prevent third party software from tracking in the first place.

His exact words were "I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers".

Now, both groups I am following are working on methods that haven't been used for combat trackers in the past. There was a third group I was following a year ago or so, but their method of data collection happened serverside and I wasn't comfortable with that (they do this on a number of existing AAA MMO's).

The thing with this is, it is almost an arms race. If Intrepid block one method, these people (who look at it as a challenge to their ability) will find another. This will force Intrepid to either accept them, or to work on blocking that method. If they attempt to block it, these people will just find another method.

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

From everything I’ve heard from Steven, it seems like he only views combat trackers as real-time info displays, rather than the post-fight analyzers that they are.

Which is an naive a view as people that think DBM is a combat tracker.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

So...in a PvX Game you want to make the Hardcore PvE Players (Who will become the most dominant PvP Players because the gear is PvX) also have the ability to be the Min/Maxers who would also become dominant in PvP because as a Raid Team they would be at the epitome of the combat traits, and expect the situation to be perfectly fine and balanced?

The great thing about the suggestion as I have put it forward is that since gear degradation is a thing, and since the tracker wouldn't work in PvP, PvE players are likely to not have any advantage at all over more PvP oriented players.

PvE players aren't going to PvP in raid gear if that will risk destroying that raid gear, leaving them unable to participate in the same level of raiding that they were in.

Yuyukoyay

The problem with the Damage Meters is that guilds are going to use it to reward players who score high and no one else. Regardless of what a stat says about you, you should have value in a raid as a player showing up to fight. Players who are screwing up are just going to get kicked as it is now. So players should be less needy of metrics to see just how well they did.

Basically the guild leader didn't do a raid by himself. He showed up with 39 other players. Just as he has the ability to judge them. They should have the ability to judge him back. It's disrespectful to take away rewards from a player who won a roll for any reason.

Having Damage Meters is just going to increase toxicity in group settings.

Aardvark

StevenSharif wrote: »

Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.

My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️

can we get a test dummy area in the large cities ?

Adlehyde

noaani wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

From everything I’ve heard from Steven, it seems like he only views combat trackers as real-time info displays, rather than the post-fight analyzers that they are.

Which is an naive a view as people that think DBM is a combat tracker.

I'd have to say the naive statement here would be any insinuation that it's not a real-time info display. It is also a post-fight analyzer, yes, but regardless of how certain people want to, or think it will be used, or the most valuable benefit of having one, what's important is how it is going to get used, and the consequences of it's existence on the game. damage meters/combat trackers, have genuine value to the players who want them. The value is undisputed. They also create real harm to the experience of those who don't want to use them. This is also undisputed. The stance of IS putting forth an effort is to prevent them from functioning as 3rd party software is a justifiable effort.

Songcaller

noaani wrote: »

PvE players aren't going to PvP in raid gear if that will risk destroying that raid gear, leaving them unable to participate in the same level of raiding that they were in.

In my experience in other PvX Games is yes, they will. The reason they will is because Decay won't be trivial, and, they can clear the content where others might not be proficient to do so. Whoever downs the hardest bosses first will stand a chance of getting Maximum Tiered Equipment in the PvX System. One doesn't need to craft what one obtains, one just needs to maintain it.

Furthermore, few people will know where a Guild is based unless they Guild War the particular Guild. Even if a different Raid Group contests the Boss Locations, again, the Hardcore PvE People could potentially have the edge in terms of gear. They would also have the edge in DPS to obtain further gear because they would be optimised by a Combat Tracker.

Skills will be the same whether they are for PvE or PvP, all that might change is the passive buffs to specific gear sets, but, anyone can achieve the passive buffs easier if their base armour is superior. If you are fine-tuned by a Combat Tracker then you are fine-tuned for any encounter, as it is PvX. I don't even think Items will be destroyed permanently, I can't find any reference to permanent destruction. If it is the case that no permanent destruction occurs then the item sinks will be in the decay and repair system, rather than the crafting system. Though it is true Crafters would have to reforge the broken items.

It is actually quite ludicrous when someone claims to be a Hardcore PvE Player but relies on Combat Trackers. The advantages are very clear, without the advantages some claim the game will fail.

If a Hardcore PvP Player decided to use a Combat Assistant, we'd call that player a cheater and banish them from Duels, Arenas and potentially Sieges, yet, because it is a PvE discussion one tries to hide behind the PvE Mantle. Yet Ashes is a PvX Game, and, PvE Skill will determine how effective one is in PvP. The faster you climb the PvE, the faster you can climb the PvP and the faster one can unlock the PvP or PvE passives.

XiraelAcaron

Can someone explain to me in broad terms how third party dps meters get their data if no game API is exposed? I am just curious. Most games I played before supported that kind of addon, so I did not know it was possible without game support.

Adlehyde

In almost all cases, it's a simple matter of reading the combat log in real time. That doesn't require an API. the combat log is a readable file.

Grimzar

Juvens wrote: »

The dragon in the mountain that no one can slay. I like the sound of that.

love that idea xD
I wish there will be unbeatable bosses with some twists, and players have to figured it out on their own how to beat them (from little hints here and there). For example boss is killable only in winters at the sun set, or entire party have to wipe within 15 seconds in order to teleport into shadow realm and kill his soul first... Something not obvious and more original.

but unfortunately there is internet and every mystery last few seconds :<

Oh I forgot this topic is about addons so -> addons = bad

IllusionTokomi

By not allowing 3rd-party analyses/parsing are they making a way to homogenize all skill damage by keeping it masked?
I am asking sincerely.

Child Item