DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

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XiraelAcaron

Adlehyde wrote: »

In almost all cases, it's a simple matter of reading the combat log in real time. That doesn't require an API. the combat log is a readable file.

Ok, I thought it would be more complex, since that can very easily be circumvented by the game developers.

Nagash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K4oym9Pw48

Damokles

Nagash wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K4oym9Pw48

Nagash do you know the scene from Penguins from Madagaskar, where the musician plays the background music in the alley while they fight?
Thats us.

Made it into a GIF:

Noaani

Adlehyde wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

From everything I’ve heard from Steven, it seems like he only views combat trackers as real-time info displays, rather than the post-fight analyzers that they are.

Which is an naive a view as people that think DBM is a combat tracker.

I'd have to say the naive statement here would be any insinuation that it's not a real-time info display. It is also a post-fight analyzer, yes, but regardless of how certain people want to, or think it will be used, or the most valuable benefit of having one, what's important is how it is going to get used, and the consequences of it's existence on the game. damage meters/combat trackers, have genuine value to the players who want them.

The problem with this is that in the previous threads, the ones where myself and a number of other posters here got together and came up with a workable solution, the one Steven mentioned earlier in this thread, is that a part if that suggestion was that the data not be made available until the pull had finished. As such, it simply couldn't be used as a real time tool.

Sure, almost every tracker out there right now is able to be used in real time, but that is only because they are able to get information in real time.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

If a Hardcore PvP Player decided to use a Combat Assistant, we'd call that player a cheater

I would label a PvE player that used a combat assistant as a cheater as well, which is why I am happy to point to WoW raids as being a poor example of the content type, and that games raiders as being a poor example of the player niche.

Nagash

Damokles wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K4oym9Pw48

Nagash do you know the scene from Penguins from Madagaskar, where the musician plays the background music in the alley while they fight?
Thats us.

Made it into a GIF:

We are basically Statler and Waldorf

Damokles

Nagash wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K4oym9Pw48

Nagash do you know the scene from Penguins from Madagaskar, where the musician plays the background music in the alley while they fight?
Thats us.

Made it into a GIF:

We are basically Statler and Waldorf

consultant

Wanted to say that in games were it is allowed to post dps in chat channel it is not unusually for poeple to use that in a toxic way. But if there was a dps meter/combat tracker in a test area the impact on the game would be very little.

my dps was low for a while but was getting better and better If I would of known how much better I needed to get that would of saved me a lot of trouble.

Another thing is dps meters mostly only show dps so it becomes the metric for performance. But if there was a performance tracker or combat tracker and dps was just a part of that report then most likely not have such a toxic effect.

How are people that have low dps going to get better if they do not know their dps is low. And weather you have a dps meter or not low dps is still an issue.

Trial and error is the best way to figure out things out or live runs, but that can be very time consuming. And it is not peoples idea of fun.

Juvens

noaani wrote: »

My argument here is not to make it so that everyone has to use it - it is to make it so that those that want it have it, and those that don't are able to ignore (or even be oblivious to) it even existing.

The problem with this statement is that if you are somewhat competative, you will do your best to improve. I think what many people want is a good mmo where you don't rely on tools but rather play the game in it's "pure form" to figure out what works or not.

I won't say combat tracker, dmg meter or similar tools (implemented or not) has the same function as dbm in wow but it has the same result. It's so powerful that if you ignore it you and your guild will fall behind. In other words, if you want to be competative you can't afford not to use it.

ogre

Juvens wrote: »

I won't say combat tracker, dmg meter or similar tools (implemented or not) has the same function as dbm in wow but it has the same result. It's so powerful that if you ignore it you and your guild will fall behind. In other words, if you want to be competative you can't afford not to use it.

Well said.

Noaani

Juvens wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

My argument here is not to make it so that everyone has to use it - it is to make it so that those that want it have it, and those that don't are able to ignore (or even be oblivious to) it even existing.

The problem with this statement is that if you are somewhat competative, you will do your best to improve.

If you are somewhat competitive, you will download a stand alone combat tracker.

It is not the "somewhat competitive" people that this makes a difference to.

What I've been suggesting would see people play the game as per what you are calling it's "pure form", the difference is that after each encounter, should you chose to, you can then more easily go back and analyze how things went, and potentially make changes to your gear, your build, how you played the class, how you took on the encounter, what ever you think is needed.

Then, next time you come up against that mob, you will once again play the game int it's "pure form".

I won't say combat tracker, dmg meter or similar tools (implemented or not) has the same function as dbm in wow but it has the same result. It's so powerful that if you ignore it you and your guild will fall behind. In other words, if you want to be competative you can't afford not to use it.

This may or may not be true, but is only relevent in a discussion as to whether combat trackers will exist or not.

That isn't what this discussion is - they absolutely will exist.

This discussion is (or was) about trying to get the single best version of combat trackers possible, which could only be possible if they were implemented directly in to the games client.

I'm likely to be using a combat tracker while the game is still in alpha (potentially even while the game is still in alpha 1), based on progress that has taken place since the comments earlier in this thread.

halbarz

ninja comment: The guild tool is still the best option to please everyone.( in case there were no combat logs)
- Only the leader/officers can see it.
- Guilds have to put points into certain perks to unlock it (give and take)
- Guilds can decide themselves to use or not.
- It will not affect the open world or random groups at all
- The perk only works within your guild so you cannot judge a 3th party member in your group.

I still think this is the middle way and best solution to please everyone.
As guilds can currently focus on passive buffs and growth and have to pick one of the two to focus on a 3th option like this wouldn't do any harm

+

Steven already confirmed combat logs, so I think the discussion is over

With these logs, people that wish to do so can analyze their performance after the encounter. This way any kind of potential harassment stays out of the game.

So I guess this discussion can be closed, one is a proposal and the other is already confirmed

Win win for everyone

Juvens

Juvens wrote: »

I won't say combat tracker, dmg meter or similar tools (implemented or not) has the same function as dbm in wow but it has the same result. It's so powerful that if you ignore it you and your guild will fall behind. In other words, if you want to be competative you can't afford not to use it.

noaani wrote: »

This may or may not be true, but is only relevent in a discussion as to whether combat trackers will exist or not.

That isn't what this discussion is - they absolutely will exist.

This discussion is (or was) about trying to get the single best version of combat trackers possible, which could only be possible if they were implemented directly in to the games client.

The core question from the maker of this discussion is: Will/should combat tracker, dps meter or similar tools be allowed? This question is what I have tried to answer so far in all my posts here. Feel free to answer my statement again, please.

And to answer your quote about combat trackers: "They absolutely will exist." Allow me to quote StevenSharif:

StevenSharif wrote: »

My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers.

If this doesn't directly contradict your statement, please elaborate. I don't wish to speculate wether he can enforce this or not. If he feel confident it's possible, I'll give him a chance to prove it.

noaani wrote: »

If you are somewhat competitive, you will download a stand alone combat tracker.

It is not the "somewhat competitive" people that this makes a difference to.

What I've been suggesting would see people play the game as per what you are calling it's "pure form", the difference is that after each encounter, should you chose to, you can then more easily go back and analyze how things went, and potentially make changes to your gear, your build, how you played the class, how you took on the encounter, what ever you think is needed.

We are talking about a game that has consequenses, and don't seek to please everyone. If you are in a 1v1, siege, public dungeon, world pvp or caravan fight you potentially stand to lose something. You are competing against other players, neighboring nodes, guilds and cities, whether you like it or not. And what do people do to prevent losing? Whatever they think is needed.

Because most people don't like the idea of losing. I suspect it might has to do with pride or not to be seen as less among their friends, guild members and enemies. Combat tracker makes a difference to everyone, even the casuals. Why? Because eventually someone they fight will have reaped the benefits from it. It will create a distinction between those who have used the tool and those who haven't. And those who haven't, have a greater chance of losing in the near or distant future. Making it more of a necessity than a choise.

Even in a casual friendly game like wow you see casuals taking the time to find, install and learn how to use addons. If combat tracker shows to be one of the best tools in AoC when it comes to improving your outcome, we see the possibility that most competative- and many casual players will make use of it. Even more true if it's incorporated and easy to use.

BlackBrony

Well if there are combat logs, there will be a combat tracker.
So, everyone will have to download it, no matter what you feel about them.

Nagash

BlackBrony wrote: »

Well if there are combat logs, there will be a combat tracker.
So, everyone will have to download it, no matter what you feel about them.

3rd party apps are banned

BlackBrony

Nagash wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

Well if there are combat logs, there will be a combat tracker.
So, everyone will have to download it, no matter what you feel about them.

3rd party apps are banned

If there are combat logs, it's impossible to not have a Combat Tracker. You just upload the file to a server and the server does the calculation. Intrepid can't control that.
You won't see in game, but it will be there. I think that quote from Steven cleared things a lot.
It would seem he doesn't want to have an in game tracker constantly telling your DPS, but you will have the log to check after the fight.

Genoblast

I think allowing a DPS meter would be a fine addition. With the internet being what it is now-a-days people will still look up the "best build" regardless of being able to directly track their DPS in game. Removing this is just an inconvenience, and honestly will backfire because you can't determine on your own how well you're doing through trial and error. I honestly find it very rewarding to figure things out on my own and like the idea of sharing and exchanging knowledge with other players as we figure things out together.

On a side note. A game with a sub fee should have quite a lot less toxicity by default. People who are willing to pay money to play a game will naturally be more invested in playing rather than trolling. I've played pretty much every main stream MMO since the days of vanilla EQ and it just seems that sandbox MMOs have a much MUCH more adult player base. I really don't think a DPS meter is an issue and honestly think it adds a lot more to the game than people realize.

Edit: I should also mention that I think the game shouldn't necessarily include a DPS meter but rather allow some sort of 3rd party mod as an option

Niraada

noaani wrote: »

The problem with this is that in the previous threads, the ones where myself and a number of other posters here got together and came up with a workable solution, the one Steven mentioned earlier in this thread, is that a part if that suggestion was that the data not be made available until the pull had finished. As such, it simply couldn't be used as a real time tool.

Sure, almost every tracker out there right now is able to be used in real time, but that is only because they are able to get information in real time.

I actually like the idea of an 'after action report' implementation if a combat tracker was indeed to be implemented.

I dislike the idea of immediately knowing exactly how your performance is shifting from moment to moment, and being able to review a pull rather than measure in real time opens up avenues for more skillful analysis as opposed to relying on the meter to tell you how efficient you're being in a given moment.

Noaani

Juvens wrote: »

If this doesn't directly contradict your statement, please elaborate. I don't wish to speculate wether he can enforce this or not. If he feel confident it's possible, I'll give him a chance to prove it.

I will not go in to too much detail - for the exact same reason Steven won't go in to detail on what they plan to do to prevent combat trackers.

All I will say is that obviously people will try to make them, we should all know this. This means it is essentially a battle of wits/ability between groups that will make them, and staff at Intrepid - as well as any firm they may contract this out to.

There are three groups that I know of that are working on a combat tracker for Ashes, two of which I am following closely.

Of the two that I am following closely, having seen the legitimate work they do, I wouldn't ever bet against then succeeding. The fact that they are able to implement a combat tracker without the constraints they face in the work they do daily means it's essentially like it's own game to them.

The third group, the one I no longer associate with, their tactics in previous games have left me not wanting to associate with them at all. These tactics have always proven successful, but I do not at all believe the ends justify the means.

Steven specifically said they expect to be able to prevent the majority of third party combat trackers, not all of them.

Noaani

Nagash wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

Well if there are combat logs, there will be a combat tracker.
So, everyone will have to download it, no matter what you feel about them.

3rd party apps are banned

Does that mean we can't open the log file in Notepad?

Honestly, the comment that there will be combat logs seems to me like it will be a bait and switch. Combat logs in an MMO are an established thing, a specific thing, and I don't see Ashes having them at all.

My assumption is that by "combat log", Steven means a tree that will fight back after you cut it down.

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