If thats their choice I suppose 🤷🏻♂️ It will be their own personal metric though.
That's the thing, though, it WON'T be "their own personal metric." In today's gaming world, higher end guilds WILL require their use.
And higher end gaming guilds can go do that in their small circles without imposing in game demands on everyone. They want to
go the extra mile in damage, they can do that on their time.
The barrier of entry in the game world wont exist for the vast majority of players and get the enjoyment of being interactive with the majority with no barriers.
Except the fact where casual players are going to be following these competitive guilds, use their guides, watch their streams, parrot their views, bandwagon their opinions, etc. If there is a 3rd party combat tracker, it will be used by everyone, it will be imposed on new players/casuals, and it will be everywhere. The difference is, if Ashes devs makes their own tracker it can be much better and be controlled a lot better than 3rd party. Also allowing guilds to completely opt out of it will allow a much better experience.
Let's say there are 3rd party trackers. You join a guild that "doesn't allow combat trackers," but secretly your guild leader has been using them this entire time and is quietly judging your entire guild and possibly making decisions based on these numbers that you yourself aren't even aware of. At least if it's an in game system, then guilds that have it turned off will ALWAYS have it turned off, there will be no secret logs, no judgment, etc. And if you join a guild with it on, it will only display what Ashes wants it to display, up to the discretion of the devs with what information they want to allow.
Really, advocating for trackers as a guild perk (or a completely personal perk) ensures a better player experience overall, rather than denying them and then allowing 3rd party trackers to take over and develop a meta within the game.
The theme here is making sure there are no easy in-game methods to exclude and build a heirarchy of exclusion. If players seek outside sources they have to install on their own time/dime to achieve non-secure results thats their choice. I prefer it that way because I know the majority wont bother, and stick with ingame player to player interactions
No MMO has ever had in game trackers before, yet you and others in this thread claim that those games are ran into the dirt by the playerbase using them at every corner. So which is it? Will trackers turn the game into some fearmongered meta slave dystopia or will they "not affect the game at all because majority won't use them duh!" (that's just being silly)
As long as there is no in game group forced avenue I dont care what people install on their computer for 3rd party softwares on a game that doesnt allow addons 🤷🏻♂️
They take the risk and thats their choice
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2020
As long as there are sufficient barriers to people creating barriers of entry (we cant eliminate barriers of entry but you can eliminate ease of it) Then thats good enough for me as it helps seperate that toxic environment from the majority and let them sit in their waste vats in their own dime and time.
Most of the pve communities I've played destroyed themselves by glorifying and praying to their dps meters, at the cost and expense of everyone else just trying to learn the mechanics and enjoy the game. Having a developer stand up to the rat race graph metrics and focus on the game mechanics, group composition, and communication is all I could hope for in a developer
I read recently that some nursery/schools in the US no longer keep scores when they play football or any other competitive sports. This is to avoid hurting the feeling of children who have lost. For some reason this thread reminded me of that story which is kind of sad since the average age of MMO players are supposed to be over 30s these day
It must be a sad life when you need charts and scores to feel better. Back in the day, a simple Raid Kill was a big enough buzz, we needn't need to debrief afterwards. We improved with time regardless.
I don't know how far you go back when you say "Back in the day", but we humans have been keeping scores from the time we started to walk up right and as far as I can tell we will do till the day we get wiped off this planet!
On serious notes, its bit rich coming from a MMO player about scores! MMO are all about watching numbers go up and up and feeling good about it! AoC is no exception. Starting from player levels, to player skills numbers to player stats etc its all about watching numbers go up and up. Without some score going up, we won't even have game to play!
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I read recently that some nursery/schools in the US no longer keep scores when they play football or any other competitive sports. This is to avoid hurting the feeling of children who have lost. For some reason this thread reminded me of that story which is kind of sad since the average age of MMO players are supposed to be over 30s these day
LOL
The fact you compared a touchdown score to a MMO dps group meter of dps in the completion of a raid/dungeon is such a ridiculous comment.
Thats more like comparing the arm hair length of one person completing the touchdown to the arm hair length of the other person completing the touchdown.
And you being the guy who is mad that people are asking not to measure the arm hair length because they dont want it.
I prefer horizontal progression to vertical progression. There will be Arena Ranks, Siege Ranks and Guild War ranks. I do not see why IS can't make PvE Ranks (DPS Meters), but, I'm still for 'Everyone has it or no one has it' because I do not appreciate having to risk my account for third party software just to remain competitive.
It boggles my mind that competitive players claim to want to be competitive, but, will only compete in a fashion which suits them and thus destroy the balance.
I read recently that some nursery/schools in the US no longer keep scores when they play football or any other competitive sports. This is to avoid hurting the feeling of children who have lost. For some reason this thread reminded me of that story which is kind of sad since the average age of MMO players are supposed to be over 30s these day
LOL
The fact you compared a touchdown score to a MMO dps group meter of dps in the completion of a raid/dungoen is such a ridiculous comment.
Thats more like comparing the arm hair length of one person completing the touchdown to the arm hair length of the other person completing the touchdown.
And you being the guy who is mad that people are asking not to measure the arm hair length because they dont want it.
If you read this thread, people are afraid of competition and don't want their feeling hurt and that's long and short of it. They don't want to know if someone out dps them.
I prefer horizontal progression to vertical progression. There will be Arena Ranks, Siege Ranks and Guild War ranks. I do not see why IS can't make PvE Ranks (DPS Meters), but, I'm still for 'Everyone has it or no one has it' because I do not appreciate having to risk my account for third party software just to remain competitive.
It boggles my mind that competitive players claim to want to be competitive, but, will only compete in a fashion which suits them and thus destroy the balance.
I don't really understand what you are saying in there . Its genuine question and I am not being snarky etc.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I prefer horizontal progression to vertical progression. There will be Arena Ranks, Siege Ranks and Guild War ranks. I do not see why IS can't make PvE Ranks (DPS Meters), but, I'm still for 'Everyone has it or no one has it' because I do not appreciate having to risk my account for third party software just to remain competitive.
It boggles my mind that competitive players claim to want to be competitive, but, will only compete in a fashion which suits them and thus destroy the balance.
PvE ranks are not dps meters
PvE ranks are top scores for content, hard mode completion ranks, titles, mounts, skins, costumes, weekly and daily ranking for the content, loot drops from the hardest content. Along with all the accompanying spoils.
Dps meters are not ranks, they are a calculated tool meant to seperate people. Thats it
The issue is it is unfair for some to have third party tools and some not to have third party tools.
It is currently a bannable offence for using third party tools. I do not care if we get DPS Dummies, a DPS Meter or simple Combat Logs.
What I care about is fairness and competitive equalities. It is not good enough for someone to get a Server First PvE Kill, when those people use Third Party Tools.
If my Guild is competing against another Guild, and, my Guild follows the rules and don't use third party tools, then it is not a fair approach to competitive aspects.
I've seen claims about the small minority of players who can overcome Mythic Raids for example. I would rather the minority be for skill than due to Third Party Softwares.
It is not acceptable to have Trigger Warnings and Skill Warnings. It would be like an aim bot.
The whole desire to play the game from the start is the equal opportunities. Some want to remove the equal opportunities and subvert the success rates.
Like I said earlier, hardcore guilds will use DPS meters and hopefully realize that their going to be the minority guilds. Most MMORPG players these days are casual that don't need to cater to DPS meters to have a healthy community of players in their guilds that can accomplish the same things as hardcore do.
Hardcore players with DPS meters have to realize that they are in their own little world and hopefully can sustain their members without anyone rage quitting. I'm talking about in the long run, I would assume that casual guilds have a longer longevity of a healthy community.
One of the things that I will be doing for Ashes is reading many of the guilds requirements for membership, and compare how many of those guilds require a hardcore raiding parties with DPS meters for advancements in comparison to other guilds who don't have any. Also, how many of those guilds are going to be honest about it and not throw a curve ball for a new recruit by saying we will be expecting you to increase your DPS in raids or else you won't be welcomed anymore.
People would be surprised to find out that the majority dislike DPS meters.
I prefer horizontal progression to vertical progression. There will be Arena Ranks, Siege Ranks and Guild War ranks. I do not see why IS can't make PvE Ranks (DPS Meters), but, I'm still for 'Everyone has it or no one has it' because I do not appreciate having to risk my account for third party software just to remain competitive.
It boggles my mind that competitive players claim to want to be competitive, but, will only compete in a fashion which suits them and thus destroy the balance.
PvE ranks are not dps meters
PvE ranks are top scores for content, hard mode completion ranks, titles, mounts, skins, costumes, weekly and daily ranking for the content, loot drops from the hardest content. Along with all the accompanying spoils.
Dps meters are not ranks, they are a calculated tool meant to seperate people. Thats it
Are we even talking about the same thing here?
You and me fight the same boss, you did 100 damage to it and I did 70, therefor you are rank 1 DPS player. How is this not a "rank" and different from other ranks you mention above?
I thought the whole point of any"rank" is to separate people in grading system.
The issue is it is unfair for some to have third party tools and some not to have third party tools.
It is currently a bannable offence for using third party tools. I do not care if we get DPS Dummies, a DPS Meter or simple Combat Logs.
What I care about is fairness and competitive equalities. It is not good enough for someone to get a Server First PvE Kill, when those people use Third Party Tools.
If my Guild is competing against another Guild, and, my Guild follows the rules and don't use third party tools, then it is not a fair approach to competitive aspects.
I've seen claims about the small minority of players who can overcome Mythic Raids for example. I would rather the minority be for skill than due to Third Party Softwares.
It is not acceptable to have Trigger Warnings and Skill Warnings. It would be like an aim bot.
The whole desire to play the game from the start is the equal opportunities. Some want to remove the equal opportunities and subvert the success rates.
If I understand you correctly, you want fair competition and even playing field.
So are you saying that you will be fine with the game having a inbuilt DPS meters so everyone has access to it and it will be even playing field?
Yes, I have stated before that IS should build the system. I do not want Comprehensive Combat Trackers. Any tools where triggers and warnings appear on the screen is a travesty. It is important this does not happen in Ashes. I do not know how much IS will be able to monitor. I agree it should be a bannable offense. I do not like those tools in any way, shape or form.
Simple DPS Meters are the same as Combat Logs but in a different format. I still believe we should all have it or no one has it. We have Combat Logs already, I do not see the harm in IS making a DPS Meter.
Yes, I have stated before that IS should build the system. I do not want Comprehensive Combat Trackers. Any tools where triggers and warnings appear on the screen is a travesty. It is important this does not happen in Ashes. I do not know how much IS will be able to monitor. I agree it should be a bannable offense. I do not like those tools in any way, shape or form.
Simple DPS Meters are the same as Combat Logs but in a different format. I still believe we should all have it or no one has it. We have Combat Logs already, I do not see the harm in IS making a DPS Meter.
Then we are in agreement Even though I argue for DPS meters in this thread, I don't want all singing and all dancing "Comprehensive Combat Trackers" as you put it. They do make the game easier
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I read recently that some nursery/schools in the US no longer keep scores when they play football or any other competitive sports. This is to avoid hurting the feeling of children who have lost. For some reason this thread reminded me of that story which is kind of sad since the average age of MMO players are supposed to be over 30s these day
LOL
The fact you compared a touchdown score to a MMO dps group meter of dps in the completion of a raid/dungoen is such a ridiculous comment.
Thats more like comparing the arm hair length of one person completing the touchdown to the arm hair length of the other person completing the touchdown.
And you being the guy who is mad that people are asking not to measure the arm hair length because they dont want it.
If you read this thread, people are afraid of competition and don't want their feeling hurt and that's long and short of it. They don't want to know if someone out dps them.
And whats wrong with arm hair?
This entire game is built on the premise of competition and conflict
No one cares about the game having completion kills, scores, completions, weekly/daily rankings.
Most people just care about forced meters without consent
I'm fine with a personal meter on a target dummy if people just want a centimeter stick 🤷🏻♂️
I read recently that some nursery/schools in the US no longer keep scores when they play football or any other competitive sports. This is to avoid hurting the feeling of children who have lost. For some reason this thread reminded me of that story which is kind of sad since the average age of MMO players are supposed to be over 30s these day
LOL
The fact you compared a touchdown score to a MMO dps group meter of dps in the completion of a raid/dungoen is such a ridiculous comment.
Thats more like comparing the arm hair length of one person completing the touchdown to the arm hair length of the other person completing the touchdown.
And you being the guy who is mad that people are asking not to measure the arm hair length because they dont want it.
If you read this thread, people are afraid of competition and don't want their feeling hurt and that's long and short of it. They don't want to know if someone out dps them.
And whats wrong with arm hair?
This entire game is built on the premise of competetion and conflict and
No one cares about having completion kills, scores, completions, weekly/daily rankings.
I'm fine with a personal meter on a target dummy if people just want a centimeter stick 🤷🏻♂️
I want to measure my "e-peen" with yours. What is wrong with that?
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I prefer horizontal progression to vertical progression. There will be Arena Ranks, Siege Ranks and Guild War ranks. I do not see why IS can't make PvE Ranks (DPS Meters), but, I'm still for 'Everyone has it or no one has it' because I do not appreciate having to risk my account for third party software just to remain competitive.
It boggles my mind that competitive players claim to want to be competitive, but, will only compete in a fashion which suits them and thus destroy the balance.
PvE ranks are not dps meters
PvE ranks are top scores for content, hard mode completion ranks, titles, mounts, skins, costumes, weekly and daily ranking for the content, loot drops from the hardest content. Along with all the accompanying spoils.
Dps meters are not ranks, they are a calculated tool meant to seperate people. Thats it
Are we even talking about the same thing here?
You and me fight the same boss, you did 100 damage to it and I did 70, therefor you are rank 1 DPS player. How is this not a "rank" and different from other ranks you mention above?
I thought the whole point of any"rank" is to separate people in grading system.
That has nothing to do with what I was replying to??
Of course there are other rankings in the game that seperate people.
Dps meters are not a game rank system, its an instanced measure of a specifc encounter in a pve area against one of many bosses to create standards of dps to exclude others regardless of everything else and have a forced measuring with or without player consent
In this iteration of what I came here to discuss is I am FINE with a personal and private measurement of DPS on target dummies that can be shared BY CHOICE if the individual players CHOOSE to share it.
I've mentioned this several times. But I also would prefer none at all.
While dummies may be an okay compromise, it still will never come close to a tracker/meter. Dummies can't take into account boss abilities, down times, specific nuances of raid mechanics, all the raid buffs going on, boss resistances, etc. A dummy will just give you a very mediocre and very unreliable "baseline" to work from, which would be no different than just adding up the damage of all your spells together on a calculator.
Combat trackers are also used to figure out why someone had died, whether it was their fault or the healer's fault and what people need to work on to not die in the future. Dummies can't replicate that. Dummies are okay, but they aren't good enough and if all they do is put in simple target dummies then people will still make 3rd party trackers.
to create standards of dps to exclude others regardless of everything else
Lets says you are great healer or tank. However I say, I don't want you in my group since your DPS is bad and I don't want to play with you. I am stupid one here but why can't I say this? Why does this bother you? Why not find someone who is smart and can value for your skills other than DPS?
and have a forced measuring with or without player consent
I agree, if players don't want to share their DPS then they don't have to. There should be toggle in game to say share my number with other etc or not.
I'd rather not measure e-peen for your sake. xD
Also they don't make the game easier. You're confusing gameplay balance with players seeing the exact numbers. Whether they see it or not their response will be the same.
The developers will be balancing around the same numbers whether meters there or not.
I know this because it's how I always played WoW. I top charts without even attempting to min max for it. The builds I use generally become the meta because I'm better at min/maxing than most people. Meters never influenced my gameplay regardless. Me not trying to min/max, min/maxes better than most trying.
If anything it probably made the game boring hearing a bunch of losers yell at people for doing slightly less damage. Some of the people were already being hammered by the ML system so they weren't even equipped to top the charts.
There's no reason everyone can't do what I did. It's just common sense if you actually read the abilities.
I personally don't want the game to be anything like WoW in anything but part of the combat. WoW did literally everything wrong aside from Raid encounters, Dungeons, and Combat Design. Everything else in the game aside from Graphics was a failure. Meters aren't required in the combat to Min/Max it.
I'd rather it be closer to Lineage 2 with a better combat system. Lineage 2 was designed in a way that it couldn't succeed if it was not fun. People happily played that game without meters. A lot of the content required higher min/maxing than actual raids do in wow if you wanted to be viable in pvp. Except with actual systems to be able to min/max which WoW completely removed by Cataclysm.
"If anything it probably made the game boring hearing a bunch of losers yell at people for doing slightly less damage. Some of the people were already being hammered by the ML system so they weren't even equipped to top the charts."
Just proves to me you actually are pulling this all out of your ass, because raid logs take into account your iLvl (the average level of your gear) before parsing your damage/heals with other players of your class/spec. So technically a player in nothing but green dungeon gear can "top the charts" because they are being compared with other people that are in green dungeon gear. You probably "topped the charts" in your mom and pop weekend raiding guild, but not in any competitive sense.
I'd rather not measure e-peen for your sake. xD
Also they don't make the game easier. You're confusing gameplay balance with players seeing the exact numbers. Whether they see it or not their response will be the same.
The developers will be balancing around the same numbers whether meters there or not.
I know this because it's how I always played WoW. I top charts without even attempting to min max for it. The builds I use generally become the meta because I'm better at min/maxing than most people. Meters never influenced my gameplay regardless. Me not trying to min/max, min/maxes better than most trying.
If anything it probably made the game boring hearing a bunch of losers yell at people for doing slightly less damage. Some of the people were already being hammered by the ML system so they weren't even equipped to top the charts.
There's no reason everyone can't do what I did. It's just common sense if you actually read the abilities.
I personally don't want the game to be anything like WoW in anything but part of the combat. WoW did literally everything wrong aside from Raid encounters, Dungeons, and Combat Design. Everything else in the game aside from Graphics was a failure. Meters aren't required in the combat to Min/Max it.
I'd rather it be closer to Lineage 2 with a better combat system. Lineage 2 was designed in a way that it couldn't succeed if it was not fun. People happily played that game without meters. A lot of the content required higher min/maxing than actual raids do in wow if you wanted to be viable in pvp. Except with actual systems to be able to min/max which WoW completely removed by Cataclysm.
I will be first to admit my "e-peen" is not big I want it to be but I make do with what I got
I still don't understand your point, Are you saying that even without DPS meters, people will min/max and there will be meta builds? Also are you saying that DPS meters don't make the game easier? If so, whats your objections against them?
What kind of request is that? It only fuels the reason why Characters and Logs should be personal and not visible to the group.
We aren't in WoW and WoWs methods of feedback limitations do not apply.
Because you can't just come into a conversation with complete non-sense making outrageous claims like "I'm such a good minmaxer that the competitive guilds all just copied my build and I never used any meters or anything haha!"
That's absolute bullshit, and he could and would be able to back it up if he wasn't lying. He probably would have also made a name for himself and would be a popular name in the WoW community if this were the case, but he isn't.
You know, before WoW, theory crafters were the go to people. After WoW, third party software became the go to. To my knowledge, only those players who want public acclaim and fame have been promoted.
Joanna did the fastest level on a Hunter in Vanilla.
JokerD did the fastest level on a Mage in Classic.
I know these people because these people want to be known. Forcing someone to be known is bad for the forums. In WoW Forums people aren't even taken seriously if they haven't completed certain content, or don't have high enough Honour.
This is the toxicity Steven wants to avoid. I do not think it wise to force players to reveal what a player is not comfortable to reveal.
More that people will play as optimally as they can without caring about the results. The result of playing optimally will result in the same effect whether they see the results or not. The Dummies are mostly for noobs to optimize on if they are absolutely incapable of it during the leveling experience in combat for 50 levels.
You know, before WoW, theory crafters were the go to people. After WoW, third party software became the go to. To my knowledge, only those players who want public acclaim and fame have been promoted.
Joanna did the fastest level on a Hunter in Vanilla.
JokerD did the fastest level on a Mage in Classic.
I know these people because these people want to be known. Forcing someone to be known is bad for the forums. In WoW Forums people aren't even taken seriously if they haven't completed certain content, or don't have high enough Honour.
This is the toxicity Steven wants to avoid. I do not think it wise to force players to reveal what a player is not comfortable to reveal.
Then don't make such claims. From the rest of his post I can tell that he was talking out of his ass. Raidlogs and parses don't count gear differences, each person is in their own gear bracket based on the average ilvl of their gear. So no, no one is "getting fucked by the loot system". Also anyone who has actually raided competitively in any MMO would never complain about Master Loot. All his post tells me is he is lying through his teeth and has clearly never been in high level content before. People only complain about Master Loot in social guilds and pugs where it gets abused.
Do you think Method or Limit or Blood Legion or Nihilum were abusing Master Loot to gear their friends over people who need it? No, they gear according to the guild's needs, just like most (if not all) competitive raiding guilds. It's actually a huge point of contention right now in the WoW community because Master Loot was removed in favor of completely random personal loot which sometimes gives people pieces they don't want/need and they can't even trade.
I've heard Method abused the cash for Gold and Gold for Cash...I've been off Method ever since.
The others I've never heard of but I don't follow WoW since I left WoW.
I prefer soloing Raid Bosses and appreciate others who also have such a fancy. It matters little to me at what point it becomes possible. Min/Maxing is sometimes required and so too is the highest tiers of armour.
Method did a raid with Naked Toons...I've seen a Raid with Melee Toons only...I'm all for weird and wonderful tactics.
Comments
As long as there is no in game group forced avenue I dont care what people install on their computer for 3rd party softwares on a game that doesnt allow addons 🤷🏻♂️
They take the risk and thats their choice
Most of the pve communities I've played destroyed themselves by glorifying and praying to their dps meters, at the cost and expense of everyone else just trying to learn the mechanics and enjoy the game. Having a developer stand up to the rat race graph metrics and focus on the game mechanics, group composition, and communication is all I could hope for in a developer
On serious notes, its bit rich coming from a MMO player about scores! MMO are all about watching numbers go up and up and feeling good about it! AoC is no exception. Starting from player levels, to player skills numbers to player stats etc its all about watching numbers go up and up. Without some score going up, we won't even have game to play!
LOL
The fact you compared a touchdown score to a MMO dps group meter of dps in the completion of a raid/dungeon is such a ridiculous comment.
Thats more like comparing the arm hair length of one person completing the touchdown to the arm hair length of the other person completing the touchdown.
And you being the guy who is mad that people are asking not to measure the arm hair length because they dont want it.
It boggles my mind that competitive players claim to want to be competitive, but, will only compete in a fashion which suits them and thus destroy the balance.
If you read this thread, people are afraid of competition and don't want their feeling hurt and that's long and short of it. They don't want to know if someone out dps them.
And whats wrong with arm hair?
I don't really understand what you are saying in there . Its genuine question and I am not being snarky etc.
PvE ranks are not dps meters
PvE ranks are top scores for content, hard mode completion ranks, titles, mounts, skins, costumes, weekly and daily ranking for the content, loot drops from the hardest content. Along with all the accompanying spoils.
Dps meters are not ranks, they are a calculated tool meant to seperate people. Thats it
It is currently a bannable offence for using third party tools. I do not care if we get DPS Dummies, a DPS Meter or simple Combat Logs.
What I care about is fairness and competitive equalities. It is not good enough for someone to get a Server First PvE Kill, when those people use Third Party Tools.
If my Guild is competing against another Guild, and, my Guild follows the rules and don't use third party tools, then it is not a fair approach to competitive aspects.
I've seen claims about the small minority of players who can overcome Mythic Raids for example. I would rather the minority be for skill than due to Third Party Softwares.
It is not acceptable to have Trigger Warnings and Skill Warnings. It would be like an aim bot.
The whole desire to play the game from the start is the equal opportunities. Some want to remove the equal opportunities and subvert the success rates.
Hardcore players with DPS meters have to realize that they are in their own little world and hopefully can sustain their members without anyone rage quitting. I'm talking about in the long run, I would assume that casual guilds have a longer longevity of a healthy community.
One of the things that I will be doing for Ashes is reading many of the guilds requirements for membership, and compare how many of those guilds require a hardcore raiding parties with DPS meters for advancements in comparison to other guilds who don't have any. Also, how many of those guilds are going to be honest about it and not throw a curve ball for a new recruit by saying we will be expecting you to increase your DPS in raids or else you won't be welcomed anymore.
People would be surprised to find out that the majority dislike DPS meters.
Are we even talking about the same thing here?
You and me fight the same boss, you did 100 damage to it and I did 70, therefor you are rank 1 DPS player. How is this not a "rank" and different from other ranks you mention above?
I thought the whole point of any"rank" is to separate people in grading system.
If I understand you correctly, you want fair competition and even playing field.
So are you saying that you will be fine with the game having a inbuilt DPS meters so everyone has access to it and it will be even playing field?
Simple DPS Meters are the same as Combat Logs but in a different format. I still believe we should all have it or no one has it. We have Combat Logs already, I do not see the harm in IS making a DPS Meter.
Then we are in agreement
This entire game is built on the premise of competition and conflict
No one cares about the game having completion kills, scores, completions, weekly/daily rankings.
Most people just care about forced meters without consent
I'm fine with a personal meter on a target dummy if people just want a centimeter stick 🤷🏻♂️
I want to measure my "e-peen" with yours. What is wrong with that?
That has nothing to do with what I was replying to??
Of course there are other rankings in the game that seperate people.
Dps meters are not a game rank system, its an instanced measure of a specifc encounter in a pve area against one of many bosses to create standards of dps to exclude others regardless of everything else and have a forced measuring with or without player consent
In this iteration of what I came here to discuss is I am FINE with a personal and private measurement of DPS on target dummies that can be shared BY CHOICE if the individual players CHOOSE to share it.
I've mentioned this several times. But I also would prefer none at all.
Combat trackers are also used to figure out why someone had died, whether it was their fault or the healer's fault and what people need to work on to not die in the future. Dummies can't replicate that. Dummies are okay, but they aren't good enough and if all they do is put in simple target dummies then people will still make 3rd party trackers.
It is not an "official rank" system the game measures however it IS a rank system.
This is absolutely true. just because you can do good DPS on one boss does not mean you will do on another and vice versa.
Lets says you are great healer or tank. However I say, I don't want you in my group since your DPS is bad and I don't want to play with you. I am stupid one here but why can't I say this? Why does this bother you? Why not find someone who is smart and can value for your skills other than DPS?
I agree, if players don't want to share their DPS then they don't have to. There should be toggle in game to say share my number with other etc or not.
Also they don't make the game easier. You're confusing gameplay balance with players seeing the exact numbers. Whether they see it or not their response will be the same.
The developers will be balancing around the same numbers whether meters there or not.
I know this because it's how I always played WoW. I top charts without even attempting to min max for it. The builds I use generally become the meta because I'm better at min/maxing than most people. Meters never influenced my gameplay regardless. Me not trying to min/max, min/maxes better than most trying.
If anything it probably made the game boring hearing a bunch of losers yell at people for doing slightly less damage. Some of the people were already being hammered by the ML system so they weren't even equipped to top the charts.
There's no reason everyone can't do what I did. It's just common sense if you actually read the abilities.
I personally don't want the game to be anything like WoW in anything but part of the combat. WoW did literally everything wrong aside from Raid encounters, Dungeons, and Combat Design. Everything else in the game aside from Graphics was a failure. Meters aren't required in the combat to Min/Max it.
I'd rather it be closer to Lineage 2 with a better combat system. Lineage 2 was designed in a way that it couldn't succeed if it was not fun. People happily played that game without meters. A lot of the content required higher min/maxing than actual raids do in wow if you wanted to be viable in pvp. Except with actual systems to be able to min/max which WoW completely removed by Cataclysm.
U.S. East
"If anything it probably made the game boring hearing a bunch of losers yell at people for doing slightly less damage. Some of the people were already being hammered by the ML system so they weren't even equipped to top the charts."
Just proves to me you actually are pulling this all out of your ass, because raid logs take into account your iLvl (the average level of your gear) before parsing your damage/heals with other players of your class/spec. So technically a player in nothing but green dungeon gear can "top the charts" because they are being compared with other people that are in green dungeon gear. You probably "topped the charts" in your mom and pop weekend raiding guild, but not in any competitive sense.
I will be first to admit my "e-peen" is not big I want it to be but I make do with what I got
I still don't understand your point, Are you saying that even without DPS meters, people will min/max and there will be meta builds? Also are you saying that DPS meters don't make the game easier? If so, whats your objections against them?
What kind of request is that? It only fuels the reason why Characters and Logs should be personal and not visible to the group.
We aren't in WoW and WoWs methods of feedback limitations do not apply.
Because you can't just come into a conversation with complete non-sense making outrageous claims like "I'm such a good minmaxer that the competitive guilds all just copied my build and I never used any meters or anything haha!"
That's absolute bullshit, and he could and would be able to back it up if he wasn't lying. He probably would have also made a name for himself and would be a popular name in the WoW community if this were the case, but he isn't.
Joanna did the fastest level on a Hunter in Vanilla.
JokerD did the fastest level on a Mage in Classic.
I know these people because these people want to be known. Forcing someone to be known is bad for the forums. In WoW Forums people aren't even taken seriously if they haven't completed certain content, or don't have high enough Honour.
This is the toxicity Steven wants to avoid. I do not think it wise to force players to reveal what a player is not comfortable to reveal.
U.S. East
Then don't make such claims. From the rest of his post I can tell that he was talking out of his ass. Raidlogs and parses don't count gear differences, each person is in their own gear bracket based on the average ilvl of their gear. So no, no one is "getting fucked by the loot system". Also anyone who has actually raided competitively in any MMO would never complain about Master Loot. All his post tells me is he is lying through his teeth and has clearly never been in high level content before. People only complain about Master Loot in social guilds and pugs where it gets abused.
Do you think Method or Limit or Blood Legion or Nihilum were abusing Master Loot to gear their friends over people who need it? No, they gear according to the guild's needs, just like most (if not all) competitive raiding guilds. It's actually a huge point of contention right now in the WoW community because Master Loot was removed in favor of completely random personal loot which sometimes gives people pieces they don't want/need and they can't even trade.
The others I've never heard of but I don't follow WoW since I left WoW.
I prefer soloing Raid Bosses and appreciate others who also have such a fancy. It matters little to me at what point it becomes possible. Min/Maxing is sometimes required and so too is the highest tiers of armour.
Method did a raid with Naked Toons...I've seen a Raid with Melee Toons only...I'm all for weird and wonderful tactics.