DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

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Pantease

Daedrik45 wrote: »

Why do you need this to be competive? If no one has it then the playing field is level. And it’s just a guild vs a guild..... MJ became the goat bc of hard work ethic, not analytics.....

The playing field might be level, but being able to clearly see your own improvement against your past builds/rotations/attempts/gear is a hallmark of the genre, made much easier by dps meters.

Daedrik45

What more challenging then not have a dps meter????

Noaani

Daedrik45 wrote: »

Why do you need this to be competive? If no one has it then the playing field is level. And it’s just a guild vs a guild..... MJ became the goat bc of hard work ethic, not analytics.....

Top end sportsmen havn't been using analytics for decades.

It doesn't make them great in and of itself, but it sure as hell helps.

Same with combat trackers, you can still be a shit player with them.

Additionally, if all players had access to them (due to them being implemented in to teh game itself) then it is still a level playing field.

As it stands now, where players only have access to their own information and only a few people will have access to any more than that (and people will), that is creating an uneven playing field.

As such, if an even playing field is what you want more than anything else, the correct course of action is to ask for them to be implemented in to the game.

Atama

Daedrik45 wrote: »

What more challenging then not have a dps meter????

Take away the monitor and the mouse, and now you’re really talking about a challenge.

Beeper

Rhaelah wrote: »

"master" is a relative term.

Which in this case means “I’m better than other people and have the logs to show it.”

Beekeeper

I've actually seen Asmon make an interesting point towards addons in general. He said something along the lines of "Blizzard can't implement any Risk vs Reward mechanics, because players are so versed at minimizing the risk that it's basically only reward. It's easy because the addons are doing all the work for them."

Addons level the playing field so damn much that it turns everyone who uses them into hyper-expert mega chads, with no real investment or learning curve. If OP is to be believed, .there's some real difference between understanding the game and having absolute control over its information though. A rage meter tells you exactly when the boss will jump the healer, but if your eyes are glued to managing the bar, you'll never notice all the hints and give-aways the designers put in the encounters so you won't need a meter. Instead of learning the tells of this boss, you learn the bar, which looks the same for every encounter in the game, so new encounters never teach you anything new really. The game becomes boring quicker.

SickBubblegum

I completely agree @Daedrik45 , most the time a DPS meter will be not only toxic to the community but yourself, it will give you an unhealthy addiction of staring at numbers rather than enjoying the immersive experience. The only time I can see DPS meters becoming handy is when you need to decrease DPS to a particular thresh hold, however like anything this just comes down to understanding your class, moves and rotations to adjust damage accordingly.

I am a firm believer of leaving addons such as DPS meters and gear inspectors as it removes the challenge from the game.

Noaani

SickBubblegum wrote: »

I completely agree @Daedrik45 , most the time a DPS meter will be not only toxic to the community but yourself, it will give you an unhealthy addiction of staring at numbers rather than enjoying the immersive experience. The only time I can see DPS meters becoming handy is when you need to decrease DPS to a particular thresh hold, however like anything this just comes down to understanding your class, moves and rotations to adjust damage accordingly.

I am a firm believer of leaving addons such as DPS meters and gear inspectors as it removes the challenge from the game.

Since when have numbers been unhealthy?

Of all the arguments I've seen people make against combat trackers - this has to be the oddist.

I spent a decade raiding in EQ2, and during raids my screen only had my hotbars, my target, my implied target (or targets target) and the buffs I had on me.

I had a combat tracker running, but there was never a need to have it showing on screen during a raid. If need be, I could look at things at the end of the night, but if that is how I want to spend my time, that should be my perogitive.

Jibblets

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Beeper

Beekeeper wrote: »

I've actually seen Asmon make an interesting point towards addons in general. He said something along the lines of "Blizzard can't implement any Risk vs Reward mechanics, because players are so versed at minimizing the risk that it's basically only reward. It's easy because the addons are doing all the work for them."

Addons level the playing field so damn much that it turns everyone who uses them into hyper-expert mega chads, with no real investment or learning curve. If OP is to be believed, .there's some real difference between understanding the game and having absolute control over its information though. A rage meter tells you exactly when the boss will jump the healer, but if your eyes are glued to managing the bar, you'll never notice all the hints and give-aways the designers put in the encounters so you won't need a meter. Instead of learning the tells of this boss, you learn the bar, which looks the same for every encounter in the game, so new encounters never teach you anything new really. The game becomes boring quicker.

I think this it worth not passing over and actually talking about. Its incredibly perceptive, and I’m rather impressed that came from the lips of asmongold.

I fall on the side of “no mods,” but I’m curious. Has there been any talk of bosses having ‘tells’ in Aoc? What kind of tells would they have? Animations? Voice emotes?

Beekeeper

Bearheart wrote: »

I think this it worth not passing over and actually talking about. Its incredibly perceptive, and I’m rather impressed that came from the lips of asmongold.

I think you underestimate Asmon. He may act like a degenerate at times, but when he gets serious about a topic, he shows some amazing intelligence.

Bearheart wrote: »

I fall on the side of “no mods,” but I’m curious. Has there been any talk of bosses having ‘tells’ in Aoc? What kind of tells would they have? Animations? Voice emotes?

That stuff has been part of game design since the dawn of home computers. The only reason it's not as obvious for most players is that it's either just not analyzed enough, or it gets drowned out by "helpful" UI or meters that are just way more accurate and obvious than the glint in Arthas' eye.

The monster hunter franchise relies MASSIVELY on these. Dark Souls is also an excellent example. It's just more obvious there because 3rd party tools would be seen as cheats and these games lack all other hints. Where will the firebreath go down? Watch the dragons mouth. Where does the sword hit? Watch the stance. Nothing else will save you.

Noaani

Beekeeper wrote: »

I've actually seen Asmon make an interesting point towards addons in general. He said something along the lines of "Blizzard can't implement any Risk vs Reward mechanics, because players are so versed at minimizing the risk that it's basically only reward. It's easy because the addons are doing all the work for them."

Addons level the playing field so damn much that it turns everyone who uses them into hyper-expert mega chads, with no real investment or learning curve. If OP is to be believed, .there's some real difference between understanding the game and having absolute control over its information though. A rage meter tells you exactly when the boss will jump the healer, but if your eyes are glued to managing the bar, you'll never notice all the hints and give-aways the designers put in the encounters so you won't need a meter. Instead of learning the tells of this boss, you learn the bar, which looks the same for every encounter in the game, so new encounters never teach you anything new really. The game becomes boring quicker.

Please note that this is a person with experience in one game talking about that one game.

WoW has combat assistants, not combat trackers. These are different things, one assists you in an encounter you are experiencing now, the other tells you what has just happened.

Literally no one is asking for combat assistance in Ashes.

Bearheart wrote: »

I think this it worth not passing over and actually talking about. Its incredibly perceptive, and I’m rather impressed that came from the lips of asmongold.

it isn't that perceptive, we have been talking about that here since last year.

Perhaps he just read the forums here...

Noaani

Seems accurate.

Daedrik45

@noanni I have enjoyed this conversation with you, and if I’m being honest if anyone could persuade me on this topic it would be you. You seem like you really would use this tool to help people and not use it as a tool to exclude people. Like whisper me and give me advice and help me get better!! But here is the issue, you are a unicorn a mythical creature in this day and age. Bc of your rarity people just don’t want to risk encountering a troll and not a unicorn.

Naxxaz

noaani wrote: »

I can tell you now, as one of those top 1%, we will not be posting the best builds, the best "rotations", the best anything, unless we can objectively check our results. If we post a thing, we are putting that thing to our name, to our reputation. WIthout having the ability to objectively see how it is, we just won't.

Without a combat tracker, the builds that are going to be posted are not by the 1%, they are by players that would fit in the 25-50% bracket.

I don't know about Steven, but this is what i somewhat want. I understand the top players want efficiency, but fuck man, i un-ironically hate it when the best builds and rotations are figured out within the first week and made meta.

If nothing else, hopefully you guys can find enjoy trying to figure out what is "best" and theorycraft over a longer period.

Noaani

Daedrik45 wrote: »

@noanni I have enjoyed this conversation with you, and if I’m being honest if anyone could persuade me on this topic it would be you. You seem like you really would use this tool to help people and not use it as a tool to exclude people. Like whisper me and give me advice and help me get better!! But here is the issue, you are a unicorn a mythical creature in this day and age. Bc of your rarity people just don’t want to risk encountering a troll and not a unicorn.

Except I'm not that rare.

If you play a game like WoW, the game itself is set up in a way where people are disposable. As such, people treat others as if they are disposable.

I spent most of my time in MMO's playing games where people were not so easily replaced, and so spending a bit of time with those players helping them get better - if that is what they want - is just what people do.

When you are running content in a pool of players that count in the millions, there is no way you can invest time in one player and expect to see anything come from that investment.

Cut that number down to thousands, and all of a sudden the chances of seeing a return is almost guaranteed.

Basically, my view on combat trackers and the way I use them and encourage others to use them is a result of the games I have played. Other people and their view on combat trackers is a result of the games they have played. This says that if Ashes look at the games that result in good things in relation to combat trackers, they should be able to get good results.

They are already doing most of what is needed (no automatic group finder, no cross-server grouping etc), they just seem to have made a false connection between combat trackers and behavior that isn't as direct as people think it is.

Effluvikoff

There's so many WoW players here asking for WoW shit. (this isn't even talking about DPS meters, but just in general). Are you idiots high or just stupid? WE'RE TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM THAT SHIT.

Everyone hates WoW retail. Everyone. The only people left playing it are people that like the raiding and the dungeon scene. Guess what: No company is going to put out a better raid or dungeon than WoW. If you like that shit? Stay there. Don't come to other games and ask for "Mythics" because you are literally missing the point.

If you can't understand why DPS meters are bad you are broken beyond all belief. We're not here doing this MMO for Mythics or Raids. We're here to ROLEPLAY and LIVE in the world. No matter how high skill you want to take that this is an MMORPG not whatever the fuck WoW retail is these days. The unknown makes things fun.

AoC is trying to be a real MMORPG. They're trying to make systems that work and exist with each other, and all bounce their mechanics of other areas of the game that make a fun gameplay loop and one that makes all aspects of a game important to every player.

As a PvP player, I need PvE players to gank to have fun.. I need traders to make me items. I need gatherers to make money. I want PvE to be strong, not because I like doing it but because it's a BENEFIT to me to have the players there.

Man I hate these stupid people around these parts.

Noaani

Quiltsharts wrote: »

There's so many WoW players here asking for WoW shit. (this isn't even talking about DPS meters, but just in general).

The issue here is that WoW has combat assistants, not combat trackers (or DPS meters).

Literally no one is asking for a combat assistant.

Vhaeyne

I use and advocate for DPS meters in every game I play. Mainly to track my own progress, but also when you are putting hours into raid prog. You need to know who is wasting everyone's time. Reading these threads on meters. I am starting to think that it might be more interesting to play a mmo without one. I don't get the feeling we are going to have bosses that take hours of prog to clear due to mechanic in AoC. Ultimately I feel that if intrepid leaves any cracks in the software that allows a DPS meters to exist, then people are going to use them. If I know people are using DPS meters, I am going to use them. The knowledge is just too valuable. That said, I am willing to extend a olive branch, and try a game without a DPS meter.

Pantease

Quiltsharts wrote: »

There's so many WoW players here asking for WoW shit. (this isn't even talking about DPS meters, but just in general). Are you idiots high or just stupid? WE'RE TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM THAT SHIT.

Everyone hates WoW retail. Everyone. The only people left playing it are people that like the raiding and the dungeon scene. Guess what: No company is going to put out a better raid or dungeon than WoW. If you like that shit? Stay there. Don't come to other games and ask for "Mythics" because you are literally missing the point.

If you can't understand why DPS meters are bad you are broken beyond all belief. We're not here doing this MMO for Mythics or Raids. We're here to ROLEPLAY and LIVE in the world. No matter how high skill you want to take that this is an MMORPG not whatever the fuck WoW retail is these days. The unknown makes things fun.

AoC is trying to be a real MMORPG. They're trying to make systems that work and exist with each other, and all bounce their mechanics of other areas of the game that make a fun gameplay loop and one that makes all aspects of a game important to every player.

As a PvP player, I need PvE players to gank to have fun.. I need traders to make me items. I need gatherers to make money. I want PvE to be strong, not because I like doing it but because it's a BENEFIT to me to have the players there.

Man I hate these stupid people around these parts.

I dislike retail WoW too, but just because a specific thing exists in retail WoW doesn't mean it's inherently bad. I don't think anyone is asking for Ashes to be exactly like WoW in every way, but rather to take a few small things that they do still like from it and implement it into Ashes. In this particular thread, no one's asking for mythics or super hardcore raider-only things. DPS meters still have value outside of the top 1% of players.

As for you saying that we're here to ROLEPLAY and LIVE in the world, not everyone has that as their main incentive to play Ashes. I like the more immersive ideas that end up grounding the gameplay in the world of the game, but I find plenty of exciting things to look forward to that aren't explicitly roleplaying. People looking to play this game don't necessarily share the exact same ideas of what will make this game fun to play, and that's okay.

The unknown might make things fun in some instances, but I like having concrete things to look at to know that, in spending time in a game I'm playing, I'm actively improving or trying new things without setting myself massively backwards.

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