Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
I am all for you being able to play the game without any contact with combat trackers at all - even ones that you never find out about.
My goal in this thread is to point out that there is only one possible way for that to happen, and that is to provide top end raiders with a combat tracker that they will want to use over a third party one. That really is all it will take, but it is also the only possible way for it to happen.
If top end raiders have that tool, everyone else will just follow our lead and use it.
I should maybe also point out that I wouldn't expect a perk choice like this to be able to be redone. To me, this should be designed as a fundamental aspect of the guilds identity, and should a guild want to change that identity, they should - in my opinion - start over.
This means that the notion of a guild leader changing over time and switching to the combat tracker perk simply isn't possible.
It is absolutely true that in business, groups that trust their team are more successul than those that don't. Thing is, teams with access to large amounts of relevant objective data do better than teams that don't.
The best teams are those that work well together, trust each other, but have access to objective data as well.
I see no reason why objective data has to have any direct or indirect impact on trust between people.
While it may technically be possible that players would get banned if they were known to use that specific tracker, NCsoft can't detect it at all, and there are no players that have reported being banned from using it.
The fact is though, that this tracker exists points out that the notion of no tracker in Ashes is simply not a potential reality. The only possible outcomes are third party tracker, or first party tracker.
Intrepid can either close their eyes and ignore the fact that several of these will exist, or they can take steps to ensure Ashes has the best possible outcome for the most possible people in regartds to trackers.
Right now, they seem to be simply closing their eyes and ignoring the fact that they will exist and a very large percentage of players will use them. I think this is the worst possible thing for this game in regards to trackers.
I hope they continue as they are
A player that is doing that is going to cause toxicity regardless of if a meter is present or not.
They wil lfind something - whether it is a players gear, class, race, or a combination of them all. It may even just be something the player does in a dungeon.
Adding a combat tracker is not going to increase the frequency in which players are goint to want to engage in that kind of behavior, nor will it make it any more likely to happen when they do want to engage in it.
It is also worth pointing out that there will still be combat trackers in Ashes, they will just be third party ones like there are in every other game (except WoW, Blizzard take this kind of thing to a whole new level).
What I will say is that the top three encounters from that are all from EQ2 - and this is not even a close call.
WoW raiding now is better than it was at launch - the content at launch could best be described as average quality and difficulty single group content that was tuned to 40 players rather than 5.
WoW raids now are ok in comparison to EQ2 raids while I was playing that game - but they are not as interesting, nor as hard.
Perhaps a good way of illustrating the point would be to imagine a three phase WoW raid, where the encounter is fairly different for each of thsoe three phases. WoW breaks that down in to easily digestable and understandable "acts" for players. The content is - if nothing else - very well curated.
EQ2 just says "fuck you" to the players, and rather than having phases, it just throws all of those mechanics at you at the same time.
Nope, I don't.
Quote yourself, and if I have time I'll reply. Be sure to @ me though.
1. If there is a personal meter, there will be a user-made tool to gather and compare the personal meters of everyone on the team. If you do not want people's performances to be compared, you cannot measure their performance in any way.
2. If the leader is the only one who can view the meters, what's stopping him from just sharing that information with the rest of the team? What's to stop an "elitist" from simply always assuming the leadership role? Also, what's to stop them from lying about what the meters say to push someone they don't like out with false justifiable reason?
3. DPS meters are not elitist. People are. If you don't want to play with people who ignorantly look at only the DPS meters, then don't, but totally disabling meters because you're worried about elitism is patently absurd. It won't remove elitism, it will simply shift its attention elsewhere. Meters are a tool; nothing more. Please allow those of us who know how to -- and want to -- use them do so.
If you don't want to use meters, don't. Please don't make it more difficult for those of us who enjoy optimizing our characters' performances just because you personally aren't interested.
For point 1&2 combined theres no reason to not have meters personal and private without player consent.
If I decide to share it with others thats my choice who I wish/trust to share it with
I may not share it with anyone at all and simply use it for my own personal desire to measure skill/morph/ability/item damage
There is absolutely zero reason to not allow the meter to be private. If guild leader demands it as a requirement at least I know upfront without them doing something sneaky later
For 3 yes you're right. The point is to make it as difficult and uninviting to be elitist as possible. That goes hand in hand with ensuring its up to the individual to share it or not.
Most people don't CHOOSE not to optimize. When you ask someone "do you want to use this option, or the good option?" they're almost always going to pick the "good" option, because nobody wants to start out lagging behind others, especially casual players. "Do you want to bumble around and waste your time or do you want ideal success every time" is not a question. Tools provided for optimization are going to be used by the vast majority of people unless there's some kind of stigma attached (like getting banned for 3rd party software use).
Also, excuse me? "Don't make it more difficult for us to optimize" It should be near IMPOSSIBLE to optimize through numbers, you munchkin.
Search your own posts.
You know what you want a reply to, I don't.
🙄
DPS meters force and focus people into META specs and what not so they top meters...
That wont be the case with this game there will be so much variety with classes/dmg/abilities between the 64 different classes that making DPS meters would really just detract from the whole experience. it would completely wipe classes off the map because they arent as powerful as one of the other arch-type picks and remove the fantasy aspect from the whole.... Choosing class based on DPS alone VS any type of fantasy preference towards what you're playing. Dont dig it.... I want to see a healthy mix of all the classes and if we get DPS meters it will narrow down what people choose to 1 or 2 different arch-types per main class.
Back in AC and old games u didnt have dps meters to look at and preen yourself on..... No parsing. No meta. No speedrunning..... No Bull excretions that come from implementing those types of things.....
A few points:
*How would you know what classes are OP or bad if there's no meter to compare it to? Even intrepid could use this info to balance classes. For instance in raids if Fighter classes are doing 30% more dmg than summoner classes on average, that obviously would mean that fighters would need a nerf or summoners would need a buff. You could really only make guesses on how well you're doing compared to others.
*How would you know someone is afk in your 40 man raid or just auto attacking/bad healing (healing meter)? I understand people will have reputations of being good or bad, but on a large scale like 40 people you're not going to know everyone well.
*I think to meet half way is to have a very simple built in dps/healing meter that only shows your % to a fight, no other details explaining your main dmg sources (spells used, dps numbers).
First, you are assuming Intrepid will consider combat trackers cheating. This isn't confirmed.
Second, when designing a product, you should have one eye on how you want people to use it, and one eye on how people will actually use it.
Good design requires these two things to be as close together as possible. If there is a thing you know people will do in regards to your product, you have to take that in to consideration.
The only time there is only one way is when there are a lot of requirements that eliminate ways that would otherwise be acceptable.
There is, however, often only one best way to do a thing, and that is what I am arguing for.
To be clear, I didn't come up with what I consider the best way, it was a collective that a number of people (including you) had input in to.
It is also not the way I would like to see it done - I am perfectly happy using third party combat trackers and tracking everyone's combat as I see fit - which is the current status quo.
What I am arguing for is what is the best way for all players and perspectives, as I believe that is the best thing to do for the game.
Off you go. P.S This is your second try at this.
I don't see how it *could* break down discovery or wonder let alone feel the need to explain why it wouldn't.
Forums, websites, chat and discord do far more to break down discovery on an individual player level than anything.
As for immersion, this is why the suggestion that has been put forth to intrepid - a guild based combat tracker - includes the notion of data only being sent to players out of combat, on request.
I'm not keen on real time tracking, or additional UI elements during combat. Fortunately, in order to perform a combat trackers basic functionality, real time isn't needed.
And honestly, if you don't @ someone, don't assume they have read every post in a thread like this.
How do you not understand this? You've literally answered your own question. And youll read this shit whether your sperg brain gets @'d or not. Lets be real.
>all a combat tracker does is tell you how good the idea you had is.
Unless you're so shortsighted you can't see how much damage that does to a community on a whole for a video game you are quite literally "SPOILING" the game. and taking the fun out for everyone. Discord is completely different to an actual calculator.
You instantly force a meta, and that meta is only changed by 1 thing and that's balance changes from developers. You make it so that there's nothing to be found. No cool mechanics that people didn't know about. Everything is completely open and instantly no one gives a shit anymore. The only people left caring are the people running the most optimal dungeon shit.
And guess what- the part of the question you skipped.
Guess what. That's fucking relative. You can literally run shit optimally as relative to the knowledge of the fucking community and it doesn't matter in the actual fucking slightest. Cut this shit out. You're done here.
And if there are 50+ posts between the times I am able to read this thread, as has been the case the last few days, then no, I do not read this shit whether my sperg brain gets @'d or not.
Ok, so, this is how coming up with a build works.
You have an idea.
You spec in to that idea.
You try that idea out.
You assess that idea.
If the idea was bad, you go back to the start, if it was good, you share it.
A combat tracker only assists in one part of that - it makes it easier to assess that build. I am not seeing how that "spoils" a game, nor takes the fun out of teh game for everyone.
Just an fyi, though I'm sure you are purposly using hyperbole there, most players (~85%) are not interested in coming up with a build. They will find a build someone has posted and use it until it no longer serves them.
A combat tracker doesn't find new mechanics for you. I'm not sure why you think it would.
That said, combat tracker or no, all of those things will be figured out in beta. We will have a fairly detailed understanding of the full combat system, because dozens of people are going to dedicate a lot of time to taht end, and then share the information that they find so anyone can benefit from it that wants to.
As to the games meta, I think you are forgetting the fact that this is a PvP game.
In a PvP game, the meta should always be moving, but this will only happen if players are willing to respec. Players will only respec in a PvP game if they are able to be reasonably assured that the build they are respecing to is viable.
If Ashes gets it's meta right, in the first few months (likely 4 - if I had to guess) after launch we should see around 20 promonent builds - 2 or 3 for each archetype. Within each build, there will be a set of the other builds that are the scissors to your rock, a set that will be the paper to your rock, and the rest will be other rocks. The meta then shifts to people creating builds for their archetype that alters which other common builds they are going to beat. This then results in a constantly shifting meta that is based on what builds players see, how often they see them, and how many of them they can design a build to best in PvP.
The thing is, in order for this to work, there is a need for rapid iterating. If a build takes you three weeks to perfect, it may well be obsolete by then as the classes it was designed to take on are no longer in vogue.
In regards to PvE (not that many people will run builds just for PvE), you need to remember that content will change based on node state.
It may well be that if you are taking on content that is primarily influencedby a military node, it is highly resistent to physical damage, but in content influenced in a scientific node, it may well be highly resistant to magical attacks. As such, the type of nodes that you are near will impact the build you want to be running. I assumed you were joking with this.
People will often run what the community tells them is best, this is true.
The thing is (and this is a thing I have pointed out many times on this thread), the community will post what is best regardless of if combat trackers exist or not.
If someone posts a thread saying "this is the optimal build for this piece of content", then that all what some players will take on that content. It doesn't matter if that post - or the game - makes use of objective data.
People will read it, believe it, and then follow it.
This is why I say the real issue you have is in forums, websites, chat and discord, not combat trackers. The things you are complaining about here happening with combat trackers will all still happen without them. The only difference is, if combat trackers are used, at least the information actually might be accurate.
Honestly, with how many times I have said that in this thread, I assumed you were joking when you bought it up again.
Suggestion:
DPS Meter where you see only yourself with detailed information (skills, crits, hits, etc)
and at the end of the dungeon (instance what ever) you get for yourself a Ranking like you made a Rank C
The Rank System could be based on a Database wich is only tracked by the Publisher themselfs and if you are one of the 10% best of People wich took the same Prime and Second Class you get Rank B for example. (like WoW logs where you get colours based on your performance in comparison to other players, only that it is not public)
Sorry for my bad english. I hope i could convey my idea
@noaani
This guy... This guy gets it. 51 pages of children being told no and throwing a fit about it. Cut it out.
I made you something.
The people throwing fits, as you put it, are the people that are incapable of participating in a debate.
Cute.
Wrong, but cute.
You are completely ignoring the impact PvP has on a games meta. In PvP games, there is no permanant "best build" because the types of targets you are going up against change every few weeks. As such, your build will change often as well. Also, the best build for you *at any given time* will be based on the type of builds you come up against.
If you are up against a guild that has a lot of a particular build, then your best possible build is probably one that can effectively counter that build - regardless of what other people on other servers - or what other people in other guilds on your server - think the best build is.
Feel free to do up a flow chart taking all of that in to consideration - assuming you want to participate in an actual discussion on the topic.
What's the point of having 64 classes if people only play 20 of them due to meta hunger, we will have 64 classes with 4 augments for each class on each of their abilities there is soo many combinations here that without a dps meter the meta can evolve for a long time, if a meter is introduced within the first 4 months soo many of these combinations will be written off with minimal in-game playing because dps meter says so...
as far as balancing goes I imagine IS is going to have the metrics saved to their system so they can do internal checks to make sure everything is balanced without the need for players to see it.
as for 3rd party trackers, if the server isn't reporting metrics to each client and is doing that internally it could be harder for them to be accurate,
I know no one is going to change their position that should be abundantly clear by now. If IS does decide to release an advanced combat tracker I don't see why it has to be at the games release, I reckon a wait and see approach is better so they can gauge if one is even required for their specific game.
People in Archeage don't change their build. Ever.
The game has the same meta as it did in 2013 in Korea, because without objective data, no one wants to deviate from the established wisdom.
XLGames are at a point now where they are unable to alter the 5 or 6 main classes that people play in that game, because people would rather leave the game than attempt to find a new workable build.
The game is at a complete and perpetual standstill.
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People need two things in order to change a build. They need a reason, and they need some sort of assurance they will be better off after the change.
The reason, in Ashes, is provided via other players builds, and PvE content changing due to the node structure.
The assurance is much harder to supply without objective data.
It will be hard, but it will also be possible.
People making these tools only need one method to get their data. If it is hard, it is only hard once.
Knowing the work some of the people currently working on these trackers do for a living (and have done "for the lulz"), I wouldn't ever bet against them. The reason it should be at release is because the idea of having one in the games client is so that Intrepid can have some sort of control over the tracker that the bulk of people that want to use one in Ashes actually do use.
If the game is released without one, people will use a third party one that will be ready some time during beta. Thus, when Intrepid release theirs, no one will care as we will all be using one we are happy with.
Basically, if they don't have one at release, there is no point in them attempting to release one later.
That's just not true. People find new shit all the time, even in games like WoW where addons run the entire game. Hell, like I've said before in this thread, the current meta that has evolved for classic wow right now, was only discovered on private servers about ~3 years ago. They didn't find it in Vanilla (which had combat trackers), they didn't find it in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, or 2016 on private servers which all had combat trackers AND addons that tell you exactly what a raid encounter is going to do (Deadlybossmods, bigwigs, weakauras, etc). No, they found it in around 2017-2018 on private servers.
14 years after vanilla release, 13 of them with addons and trackers, and people were still finding new things. Hell people are finding new things on the classic servers RIGHT NOW, in a 16 year old game.
There hasn't been a balance change to Vanilla in any of those years, just btw.