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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Why have all that instead of just simply having a private meter? You ASK the individual and they either consent or dont. The players decide what to do afterwards.
Like I said there is no justifiable reason to be against a consensual basis for the individual players.
As for third party software if they want to risk the ban for it, or the risk of downloading software onto their rig, more power to them.
It means exactly what the definition is.
Just because you dont like someone having the choice to say NO to your meters doesn't change that.
@noaani pointed it out best, private meters lead to people asking them for pugs, guild meters can only be used in guilds that you CONSENT TO PLAY WITH.
Also private meters are a hassle, do you really want to spend every raid wipe spending 40 minutes for everyone to send their logs to the raid lead?
Yup absolutely. So long as I have the choice
So its a moot point
You do have the choice though, you dense asshole. You have the choice to not join the guild.
I really usually do not do that. But after I stopped laughing so hard i snorted coffee all over my keyboard, i got flashbacks from the Innoruuk/Uqua raids I was on.
Someone seems a bit angry here. I already explained why joining the guild and the guild non-consensually having access to my private data in the game is still a problem if joined and the leader/leaders do the exact opposite.
What exactly is it about people having a choice in this that seems to upset you so much?
Ask and move on. Otherwise I'm with Steven on this for no meters.
It seems pretty simple to just respect people.
I did not ignore it. I simply stated that I dont want it, unless the individual can say NO to the system on and Individual basis without the radical need to leave every guild that has it on.
You are just (for whatever reason) against people saying no to you forcefully accessing data.
I'm sticking 100% with steven on this
And I'm the only one between us not resorting to base insults.
The moment you started with insults you lost the argument.
"LFM 3 DPS for raid. Link logs or no invite!"
it also introduces another problem that competitive guilds will have to spend needless hours of time each raid night just posting all their logs between encounters
Nowadays one has to be glad if Godwin's Law is not called upon within 3 pages of a controversial subject.
I dont want combat logs at all.
I was simply saying I could be amendable to a meter if they are added but with individual consent. It may not stop the toxicity but I can live with it if theres a way to say no.
lol this is true. Thankfully I don't think it has been brought yet. But we're 50 pages deep now so theres still time lol
I'm not advocating for anyone to "enforce my playstyle" on anyone else. You are being willfully ignorant and obtuse with your "logic" being based on feelings. No different than a child who can't see reason.
*Sigh*
I hope you have a good day sir. Enjoy
Heres my stance
Dps meters - I dont want them without an option to say NO on an individual level.
Dps target dummies- I wouldnt mind
BTW no dps meter is the way.
You don’t have to boot the person to make it a toxic environment...
In business, the companies that micromanage fail, companies that work as a team, trust, and empower their people succeed. Groups of players is no different (and I’ve lead both).
That L2 tracker was likely against the ToS as I don’t recall it being allowed by NCSoft. I.e. folks could get banned if caught.
^^
Heres another one angry that someone dares speak out against forced meters lmao.
You guys are fanatics.
I dont care if they exist I care in how its accessed. If you have a problem with that you may as well rename yourself epstein.
if you can't accept that people have an option to say no to your request you need some serious personal development skills.
"If you dont like them dont use them"
Thats exactly what I've proposed. Literally like over 13 posts now. I dont see how this keeps getting skipped over and over and over lol.
Right now guess what? AoC and steven already dont want ANY at all. I actually dont mind if they exist so long as its a request function that can ONLY be given at the players individual consent.
Its. Not. That. Hard. To. Understand.
If I have to highlight it for you I will. I'll hold
your hand and go braill reading with you to if it helps you understand that.
And then you ask why so many of us dont want them (dps meters) and question why we think it creates a toxic environment??????!
You have literally shown exactly why they arent wanted in this thread.
Compromise would be the most logical option here
1. Dps Dummy targets
2. Player consented meter sharing.
I mean anything besides posting insults at everyone who says something different.
Steven is probably looking at how rabid and ill mannered a lot of you are pushing for dps meters here. He reads these forums, and he definitely reads this topics conversation.
You have validated his concerns with these meters and it would not surpise me in the least if he just screen shots your posts and puts them up as evidence every time hes asked "why dont you want dps meters in the game"
I would like target dummies as a decent compromise but hell he's not likely to even include those now looking at how you act.
I'm going to list off a few things that I consider basic facts, if you disagree with any of these, let me know.
1, Top end raiders will have a combat tracker.
2, That combat tracker will need to be efficient to use in order for top end raiders to use it.
3, The combat tracker that top end raiders may be something they need to keep hidden from Intrepid.
4, A third party combat tracker will not have any provision for player consent.
5, Guilds tend to exist of people that want to play the game in the same generall manner.
6, Many players that imitate what they think top end players do will use the combat tracker that top end players use, if they have access to it.
---
Now, I am all for requring consent in order to be tracked. It isn't my personal preference, but I fully agree that if you do not want to be tracked, it should be your call.
The question then shifts on to how to make that a reality.
Starting off with the status quo, with nothing at all built in to the game, top end raiders will find and use a tool. Players that are wannabe top tier players will find out what tool we use, and will then acquire it and misuse it - as is the case in many other games out there (to differing degrees of issue).
Sure, the tool may be against the rules (it may not, as well), but it is absolutely possible to design a combat tracker in a way where it is not able to be detected.
This would mean that basically anyone that wants to track combat is able to do so without anyone else knowing about it. I have to assume this would be what you would consider the worst possible outcome.
So the nest thing to consider are the personal combat trackers as you have suggested. These would cause delays around waiting on people to send data after each pull. A system like that would not be efficient enough for top end players to use, and so top end players simply wouldn't. They would revert back to the system above, and use third party trackers.
While a system could be implemented where you give perpetual consent to always have your data sent to a specific player or group, this would still be worse than a built in combat tracker at the guild level.
If there is a way for players to ask to see combat data, that is what they will do. People will be recruited in to guilds based on that, and groups will form based on that data. If you do not provide taht data, you do not get in to the group or guild.
Thus you still have people being excluded - but rather than being excluded based on what the data says, they are being excluded based on not wanting to share it.
To me, this would be even worse in terms of social impact that having a combat tracker that is available to use for all. The develoeprs would essentially be building in to the game a means for players to divide themselves at all levels and in all areas, and to do so by both philosophy and ability - which is clearly bad.
If we then look at the guild tracker, as suggested, there is no situation where players can ask to see data. You are either in the same guild as that person and so have access to it, or you and not in that guild, and so do not have access to it.
There is no middle ground, no potential conflict point in which players could split up in to many small groups across all segments of the player base.
All that would happen with this is that top end raiders would be in guilds - as they are now, casual players would be in guilds - as they are now, PvP'ers would be in guild - as they are now, crafters would be in guilds - as they are not, and people that run group content would be in guilds - as they are now.
From there, each of these groups would then have the option to pick something that perfectly matches their particular penchant. Guilds that are more casual will have an obvious choice as to what would best suit that guild, as would PvP guilds, crafting guilds etc.
I am not making any suggestions as to what these things could be, as I believe that people that play the game in these areas would be able to come up with better suggestions than I would.
The way it should be designed though, is that only guilds with plans to take on top end raid content would even consider taking the combat tracker, if you are looking at anythign else - even taking on mid tier raids - then there is something else there that is far more useful to you and your guild.
If you are in a guild that you think is more casual oriented, and they pick the perk that is only really suitable for top end guilds, then you know that you are probably in the wrong guild, as they obviously have far more top end ambitions than they have let on. Regardless of what system of combat tracker the game allows the guild to use, if they have designs on taking on that content, you will not have the option of opting out - the guild will not provide you with that option.
And that is essentially the point - if you are in a guild that wants to track your combat, you have the option of saying yes, or leaving. It doesn't matter what system of tracker is in place - this will always be true.
In a system with individual combat trackers that are able to be shared, you will have far more people tracking your combat than you would in a system where only top end guilds have a combat tracker as a guild perk, that only works on guild members.
The TL;DR here is that personal combat trackers will see you excluded from groups and guilds if you do not share, it is basically building an exclusion system in to the game. If it is guild based and limited to within the guild, there is no real way to exclude people. Lastly, in both cases, you won't have any say in regards to people in your guild having access to track your combat should they want to do that - but only one of these options allows you to group with others without having to supply said data.
I will say that I totally agree with you that compromise is the best possible thing here. The thing you have to do though, is you have to think of the consequences of the things you do still. The consequences of personal trackers with consented sharing is that people won't give you the option to consent if you also want to participate.
I get what you're saying but as long as its a option that is relayed and requires consent on an individual basis its already good enough as a barrier to exclusion in my books. The point being here is that if the guild leaders suddenly try to be sneaky or they turn into something else over time, I like that they would be required to request permission to see that information because it would even out the individuals rights and the groups. Tbh this wasnt my idea, it was just me trying to accomodate for an additional option.
Again I (personally) dont want ANY combat tracking at all. I simply am trying to relay what I would be okay with. If the devs figure out a way to put it into a guild design without incentiving the behaviours we've witnessed in this thread then great, I'm all for it. I just dont believe its possible, and alot of people in this thread already showed me why.
Will some people immediatly upfront it as a requirement sure, but the fact is they still have to ask directly for your consent which is still more dialouge and interaction than just the guild leader hitting a button and getting it all regardless at a random point in time.
My preference would still be target dummies as the best compromise. But at this point I'm 100% okay with nothing because this thread has drained me.