1. To my knowledge Steven has already explicitly stated they are not implementing dps trackers. If thats incorrect provide the statement showing otherwise and I'll revise my stance on that information since addons are also not being allowed in AoC.
2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content
3. DPS meters are not a game ranking system.
This isn't a debate.
The issue with a personal combat tracker that you can opt to share is that since it is a thing that is possible, players will assume that the share function exists in order to see how good players are before grouping with them. Players will make sharing combat tracker data a requirement of joining any and all pick up groups, making the fact that it is "personal" irrelevent.
This will increase toxicity, not decrease it.
If a combat tracker exists, it needs to have hard borders as to who can and who can not see that data. To me, this should be guild based. I am fine with (and suggested about a year ago) there also being training dummies for people not in guilds with trackers - but to me, that data should not be able to be shared in game.
So long as you support non consensual tracking on an individual basis theres really nothing more I have to speak with you on this.
If there is No 100% player choice in a *possible* tracking tool guild or no guild. Then I am full stop 100% against you in any implementation of it and I will support Stevens hard stance against one at all.
Are you joking? How is it non consensual if you are consenting to join and be apart of that guild?
Joining a guild is one thing. Having them turn stuff on and off of you is another matter entirely.
Lets say I join X guild and he promises to do casual content even though my max X amount of dps is this or that. He turns it on anyway to be nosy posts it around and flaunts it regardless of my choice.
Unless the feature is personal and consensual I am 100% stop on any form of a meter.
Thats it, nothing more. If you're against consensual meters or private meters, then you're against player choice and I will have no middle ground with you on this topic.
It could be something guildies have to vote for, it could be something that can't be turned on/off without expending a bunch of resources, it could announce in guild that someone is attempting to turn it on, etc.
There are many ways around it, and many ways for you to just simply quit the guild and find one better suited to you.
And like I've said in previous posts, without an in game way to track combat, there will be 3rd party ways, and then you'll have guild leaders doing what you are worried about except with no way to prove it's them or someone else in the guild, without any way to stop it, without any knowledge that it's happening, etc. If it's a guild perk, you'd be able to tell before you even stepped into raid if it was on or not.
Why have all that instead of just simply having a private meter? You ASK the individual and they either consent or dont. The players decide what to do afterwards.
Like I said there is no justifiable reason to be against a consensual basis for the individual players.
As for third party software if they want to risk the ban for it, or the risk of downloading software onto their rig, more power to them.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I tend to play with friends/family who are generally PvE/RPers and play MMO's just for fun and are very intimidated when they want to join WoW dungeons due to people asking for "Looking for 12k DPS to kill X boss"... This scares off players to even try and join content.
Exactly. This is what I mean when the pve community gets stagnant and stalls itself out. It just chases away new players.
Whereas people saying "looking for dps,tank, healer" is a lot more open and inviting and promotes a bit more social interactions and you would think in a MMO that would be more important. The knowing mechanics, group composition, and communication will always be more important and I missed the older days when these parts were where the most focus was at and communities thrived on teaching and reaching out to newer/ less experienced players by needing to fill roles rather than filling arbitrary number percentages when people will over dps anyways
If bosses have dps checks/enrage timers or are otherwise more difficult because of dps requirements, you are going to have groups/guilds seeking good players and tossing worse players regardless of whether you have a dps meter or not. I don't care if they do it or not, but in a game where things like looting rights are determined by dps as has been indicated... you better believe people are going to push players one way or another on the dps front. If there are mechanics that set requirements for how much damage or how fast things get killed, they will find a way to assess it with or without a dps meter.
forced
You keep using this word and I don't think you know what it means
It means exactly what the definition is.
Just because you dont like someone having the choice to say NO to your meters doesn't change that.
1. To my knowledge Steven has already explicitly stated they are not implementing dps trackers. If thats incorrect provide the statement showing otherwise and I'll revise my stance on that information since addons are also not being allowed in AoC.
2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content
3. DPS meters are not a game ranking system.
This isn't a debate.
The issue with a personal combat tracker that you can opt to share is that since it is a thing that is possible, players will assume that the share function exists in order to see how good players are before grouping with them. Players will make sharing combat tracker data a requirement of joining any and all pick up groups, making the fact that it is "personal" irrelevent.
This will increase toxicity, not decrease it.
If a combat tracker exists, it needs to have hard borders as to who can and who can not see that data. To me, this should be guild based. I am fine with (and suggested about a year ago) there also being training dummies for people not in guilds with trackers - but to me, that data should not be able to be shared in game.
So long as you support non consensual tracking on an individual basis theres really nothing more I have to speak with you on this.
If there is No 100% player choice in a *possible* tracking tool guild or no guild. Then I am full stop 100% against you in any implementation of it and I will support Stevens hard stance against one at all.
Are you joking? How is it non consensual if you are consenting to join and be apart of that guild?
Joining a guild is one thing. Having them turn stuff on and off of you is another matter entirely.
Lets say I join X guild and he promises to do casual content even though my max X amount of dps is this or that. He turns it on anyway to be nosy posts it around and flaunts it regardless of my choice.
Unless the feature is personal and consensual I am 100% stop on any form of a meter.
Thats it, nothing more. If you're against consensual meters or private meters, then you're against player choice and I will have no middle ground with you on this topic.
It could be something guildies have to vote for, it could be something that can't be turned on/off without expending a bunch of resources, it could announce in guild that someone is attempting to turn it on, etc.
There are many ways around it, and many ways for you to just simply quit the guild and find one better suited to you.
And like I've said in previous posts, without an in game way to track combat, there will be 3rd party ways, and then you'll have guild leaders doing what you are worried about except with no way to prove it's them or someone else in the guild, without any way to stop it, without any knowledge that it's happening, etc. If it's a guild perk, you'd be able to tell before you even stepped into raid if it was on or not.
Why have all that instead of just simply having a private meter? You ASK the individual and they either consent or dont. The players decide what to do afterwards.
Like I said there is no justifiable reason to be against a consensual basis for the individual players.
As for third party software if they want to risk the ban for it, or the risk of downloading software onto their rig, more power to them.
@noaani pointed it out best, private meters lead to people asking them for pugs, guild meters can only be used in guilds that you CONSENT TO PLAY WITH.
Also private meters are a hassle, do you really want to spend every raid wipe spending 40 minutes for everyone to send their logs to the raid lead?
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
1. To my knowledge Steven has already explicitly stated they are not implementing dps trackers. If thats incorrect provide the statement showing otherwise and I'll revise my stance on that information since addons are also not being allowed in AoC.
2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content
3. DPS meters are not a game ranking system.
This isn't a debate.
The issue with a personal combat tracker that you can opt to share is that since it is a thing that is possible, players will assume that the share function exists in order to see how good players are before grouping with them. Players will make sharing combat tracker data a requirement of joining any and all pick up groups, making the fact that it is "personal" irrelevent.
This will increase toxicity, not decrease it.
If a combat tracker exists, it needs to have hard borders as to who can and who can not see that data. To me, this should be guild based. I am fine with (and suggested about a year ago) there also being training dummies for people not in guilds with trackers - but to me, that data should not be able to be shared in game.
So long as you support non consensual tracking on an individual basis theres really nothing more I have to speak with you on this.
If there is No 100% player choice in a *possible* tracking tool guild or no guild. Then I am full stop 100% against you in any implementation of it and I will support Stevens hard stance against one at all.
Are you joking? How is it non consensual if you are consenting to join and be apart of that guild?
Joining a guild is one thing. Having them turn stuff on and off of you is another matter entirely.
Lets say I join X guild and he promises to do casual content even though my max X amount of dps is this or that. He turns it on anyway to be nosy posts it around and flaunts it regardless of my choice.
Unless the feature is personal and consensual I am 100% stop on any form of a meter.
Thats it, nothing more. If you're against consensual meters or private meters, then you're against player choice and I will have no middle ground with you on this topic.
It could be something guildies have to vote for, it could be something that can't be turned on/off without expending a bunch of resources, it could announce in guild that someone is attempting to turn it on, etc.
There are many ways around it, and many ways for you to just simply quit the guild and find one better suited to you.
And like I've said in previous posts, without an in game way to track combat, there will be 3rd party ways, and then you'll have guild leaders doing what you are worried about except with no way to prove it's them or someone else in the guild, without any way to stop it, without any knowledge that it's happening, etc. If it's a guild perk, you'd be able to tell before you even stepped into raid if it was on or not.
Why have all that instead of just simply having a private meter? You ASK the individual and they either consent or dont. The players decide what to do afterwards.
Like I said there is no justifiable reason to be against a consensual basis for the individual players.
As for third party software if they want to risk the ban for it, or the risk of downloading software onto their rig, more power to them.
Also private meters are a hassle, do you really want to spend every raid wipe spending 40 minutes for everyone to send their logs to the raid lead?
Yup absolutely. So long as I have the choice
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Either way though I'm still full in support of the game not having them anyways.
I tend to play with friends/family who are generally PvE/RPers and play MMO's just for fun and are very intimidated when they want to join WoW dungeons due to people asking for "Looking for 12k DPS to kill X boss"... This scares off players to even try and join content.
Exactly. This is what I mean when the pve community gets stagnant and stalls itself out. It just chases away new players.
Whereas people saying "looking for dps,tank, healer" is a lot more open and inviting and promotes a bit more social interactions and you would think in a MMO that would be more important. The knowing mechanics, group composition, and communication will always be more important and I missed the older days when these parts were where the most focus was at and communities thrived on teaching and reaching out to newer/ less experienced players by needing to fill roles rather than filling arbitrary number percentages when people will over dps anyways
If bosses have dps checks/enrage timers or are otherwise more difficult because of dps requirements, you are going to have groups/guilds seeking good players and tossing worse players regardless of whether you have a dps meter or not. I don't care if they do it or not, but in a game where things like looting rights are determined by dps as has been indicated... you better believe people are going to push players one way or another on the dps front. If there are mechanics that set requirements for how much damage or how fast things get killed, they will find a way to assess it with or without a dps meter.
forced
You keep using this word and I don't think you know what it means
It means exactly what the definition is.
Just because you dont like someone having the choice to say NO to your meters doesn't change that.
You do have the choice though, you dense asshole. You have the choice to not join the guild.
Wow has the most hardcore and challenging raiding to this day. So not sure what your talking about.
I really usually do not do that. But after I stopped laughing so hard i snorted coffee all over my keyboard, i got flashbacks from the Innoruuk/Uqua raids I was on.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I tend to play with friends/family who are generally PvE/RPers and play MMO's just for fun and are very intimidated when they want to join WoW dungeons due to people asking for "Looking for 12k DPS to kill X boss"... This scares off players to even try and join content.
Exactly. This is what I mean when the pve community gets stagnant and stalls itself out. It just chases away new players.
Whereas people saying "looking for dps,tank, healer" is a lot more open and inviting and promotes a bit more social interactions and you would think in a MMO that would be more important. The knowing mechanics, group composition, and communication will always be more important and I missed the older days when these parts were where the most focus was at and communities thrived on teaching and reaching out to newer/ less experienced players by needing to fill roles rather than filling arbitrary number percentages when people will over dps anyways
If bosses have dps checks/enrage timers or are otherwise more difficult because of dps requirements, you are going to have groups/guilds seeking good players and tossing worse players regardless of whether you have a dps meter or not. I don't care if they do it or not, but in a game where things like looting rights are determined by dps as has been indicated... you better believe people are going to push players one way or another on the dps front. If there are mechanics that set requirements for how much damage or how fast things get killed, they will find a way to assess it with or without a dps meter.
forced
You keep using this word and I don't think you know what it means
It means exactly what the definition is.
Just because you dont like someone having the choice to say NO to your meters doesn't change that.
You do have the choice though, you dense asshole. You have the choice to not join the guild.
Someone seems a bit angry here. I already explained why joining the guild and the guild non-consensually having access to my private data in the game is still a problem if joined and the leader/leaders do the exact opposite.
What exactly is it about people having a choice in this that seems to upset you so much?
Ask and move on. Otherwise I'm with Steven on this for no meters.
I tend to play with friends/family who are generally PvE/RPers and play MMO's just for fun and are very intimidated when they want to join WoW dungeons due to people asking for "Looking for 12k DPS to kill X boss"... This scares off players to even try and join content.
Exactly. This is what I mean when the pve community gets stagnant and stalls itself out. It just chases away new players.
Whereas people saying "looking for dps,tank, healer" is a lot more open and inviting and promotes a bit more social interactions and you would think in a MMO that would be more important. The knowing mechanics, group composition, and communication will always be more important and I missed the older days when these parts were where the most focus was at and communities thrived on teaching and reaching out to newer/ less experienced players by needing to fill roles rather than filling arbitrary number percentages when people will over dps anyways
If bosses have dps checks/enrage timers or are otherwise more difficult because of dps requirements, you are going to have groups/guilds seeking good players and tossing worse players regardless of whether you have a dps meter or not. I don't care if they do it or not, but in a game where things like looting rights are determined by dps as has been indicated... you better believe people are going to push players one way or another on the dps front. If there are mechanics that set requirements for how much damage or how fast things get killed, they will find a way to assess it with or without a dps meter.
forced
You keep using this word and I don't think you know what it means
It means exactly what the definition is.
Just because you dont like someone having the choice to say NO to your meters doesn't change that.
You do have the choice though, you dense asshole. You have the choice to not join the guild.
Someone seems a bit angry here. I already explained why joining the guild and the guild non-consensually having access to my private data in the game is still a problem if joined and the leader/leaders do the exact opposite.
And you completely ignored my rebuttal and my suggestion that it could be a voting system for the perk or it could tell the guild that it's turned on. I'm sure they won't just be able to sneakily change guild perks during a raid, you are being a disingenuous, ignorant, and purposefully obtuse person.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I tend to play with friends/family who are generally PvE/RPers and play MMO's just for fun and are very intimidated when they want to join WoW dungeons due to people asking for "Looking for 12k DPS to kill X boss"... This scares off players to even try and join content.
Exactly. This is what I mean when the pve community gets stagnant and stalls itself out. It just chases away new players.
Whereas people saying "looking for dps,tank, healer" is a lot more open and inviting and promotes a bit more social interactions and you would think in a MMO that would be more important. The knowing mechanics, group composition, and communication will always be more important and I missed the older days when these parts were where the most focus was at and communities thrived on teaching and reaching out to newer/ less experienced players by needing to fill roles rather than filling arbitrary number percentages when people will over dps anyways
If bosses have dps checks/enrage timers or are otherwise more difficult because of dps requirements, you are going to have groups/guilds seeking good players and tossing worse players regardless of whether you have a dps meter or not. I don't care if they do it or not, but in a game where things like looting rights are determined by dps as has been indicated... you better believe people are going to push players one way or another on the dps front. If there are mechanics that set requirements for how much damage or how fast things get killed, they will find a way to assess it with or without a dps meter.
forced
You keep using this word and I don't think you know what it means
It means exactly what the definition is.
Just because you dont like someone having the choice to say NO to your meters doesn't change that.
You do have the choice though, you dense asshole. You have the choice to not join the guild.
Someone seems a bit angry here. I already explained why joining the guild and the guild non-consensually having access to my private data in the game is still a problem if joined and the leader/leaders do the exact opposite.
And you completely ignored my rebuttal and my suggestion that it could be a voting system for the perk or it could tell the guild that it's turned on. I'm sure they won't just be able to sneakily change guild perks during a raid, you are being a disingenuous, ignorant, and purposefully obtuse person.
I did not ignore it. I simply stated that I dont want it, unless the individual can say NO to the system on and Individual basis without the radical need to leave every guild that has it on.
You are just (for whatever reason) against people saying no to you forcefully accessing data.
I'm sticking 100% with steven on this
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I tend to play with friends/family who are generally PvE/RPers and play MMO's just for fun and are very intimidated when they want to join WoW dungeons due to people asking for "Looking for 12k DPS to kill X boss"... This scares off players to even try and join content.
Exactly. This is what I mean when the pve community gets stagnant and stalls itself out. It just chases away new players.
Whereas people saying "looking for dps,tank, healer" is a lot more open and inviting and promotes a bit more social interactions and you would think in a MMO that would be more important. The knowing mechanics, group composition, and communication will always be more important and I missed the older days when these parts were where the most focus was at and communities thrived on teaching and reaching out to newer/ less experienced players by needing to fill roles rather than filling arbitrary number percentages when people will over dps anyways
If bosses have dps checks/enrage timers or are otherwise more difficult because of dps requirements, you are going to have groups/guilds seeking good players and tossing worse players regardless of whether you have a dps meter or not. I don't care if they do it or not, but in a game where things like looting rights are determined by dps as has been indicated... you better believe people are going to push players one way or another on the dps front. If there are mechanics that set requirements for how much damage or how fast things get killed, they will find a way to assess it with or without a dps meter.
forced
You keep using this word and I don't think you know what it means
It means exactly what the definition is.
Just because you dont like someone having the choice to say NO to your meters doesn't change that.
You do have the choice though, you dense asshole. You have the choice to not join the guild.
Someone seems a bit angry here. I already explained why joining the guild and the guild non-consensually having access to my private data in the game is still a problem if joined and the leader/leaders do the exact opposite.
And you completely ignored my rebuttal and my suggestion that it could be a voting system for the perk or it could tell the guild that it's turned on. I'm sure they won't just be able to sneakily change guild perks during a raid, you are being a disingenuous, ignorant, and purposefully obtuse person.
And I'm the only one between us not resorting to base insults.
The moment you started with insults you lost the argument.
But your suggestion is no better, because it WILL in fact lead to the very thing you don't want and have expressed in this thread many times, along with others, that it will lead to a toxic environment.
"LFM 3 DPS for raid. Link logs or no invite!"
it also introduces another problem that competitive guilds will have to spend needless hours of time each raid night just posting all their logs between encounters
But your suggestion is no better, because it WILL in fact lead to the very thing you don't want and have expressed in this thread many times, along with others, that it will lead to a toxic environment.
"LFM 3 DPS for raid. Link logs or no invite!"
it also introduces another problem that competitive guilds will have to spend needless hours of time each raid night just posting all their logs between encounters
I dont want combat logs at all.
I was simply saying I could be amendable to a meter if they are added but with individual consent. It may not stop the toxicity but I can live with it if theres a way to say no.
The fact of the matter is, it's not "non-consensual" if you willingly joined the guild. And a game that promotes a playstyle of not being able to just change things on the fly to fit certain encounters (for example, it's going to take a big sum of resources and a quest line just to change your secondary archetype and skill point allocation) is not going to just let guilds change their perks willy nilly. Hell I'd be surprised if they could even change them at all.
It sounds like you are just scared that one day people are going to find out you are bad and kick you. If you sign up for a guild not using meters, and you see the guild perk that allows meters, you can quit right then and there. There is nothing stopping you from /gquit. And if you do consent to having a guild be able to look at your meters (for your and your guild's benefit, because lets not even pretend like this is somehow harmful outside of 1% of situations that turn toxic) then it should be a really fine compromise.
Just like 2 drunken people having consensual sex doesn't turn into sexual assault as soon as one person wakes up and regrets it.
So the tldr version is "I want to enforce my playstyle on everyone and they'll get no say" is the basis of your point.
There has not been one thing that you have said that makes for a good argument to simply asking people.
I'm also not touching that last argument because thats such a non related topic to bring into an mmo discussion on damage meters...
Since this has devolved into such a non-constructive conversation though. I'm going to just end it here by saying I do not agree with you and its clear that we're not convincing each other because you fundamentally disagree with me on an ethical level and thats not something people budge on
I'm not advocating for anyone to "enforce my playstyle" on anyone else. You are being willfully ignorant and obtuse with your "logic" being based on feelings. No different than a child who can't see reason.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The fact of the matter is, it's not "non-consensual" if you willingly joined the guild. And a game that promotes a playstyle of not being able to just change things on the fly to fit certain encounters (for example, it's going to take a big sum of resources and a quest line just to change your secondary archetype and skill point allocation) is not going to just let guilds change their perks willy nilly. Hell I'd be surprised if they could even change them at all.
It sounds like you are just scared that one day people are going to find out you are bad and kick you. If you sign up for a guild not using meters, and you see the guild perk that allows meters, you can quit right then and there. There is nothing stopping you from /gquit. And if you do consent to having a guild be able to look at your meters (for your and your guild's benefit, because lets not even pretend like this is somehow harmful outside of 1% of situations that turn toxic) then it should be a really fine compromise.
Just like 2 drunken people having consensual sex doesn't turn into sexual assault as soon as one person wakes up and regrets it.
So the tldr version is "I want to enforce my playstyle on everyone and they'll get no say" is the basis of your point.
There has not been one thing that you have said that makes for a good argument to simply asking people.
I'm also not touching that last argument because thats such a non related topic to bring into an mmo discussion on damage meters...
Since this has devolved into such a non-constructive conversation though. I'm going to just end it here by saying I do not agree with you and its clear that we're not convincing each other because you fundamentally disagree with me on an ethical level and thats not something people budge on
I'm not advocating for anyone to "enforce my playstyle" on anyone else. You are being willfully ignorant and obtuse with your "logic" being based on feelings. No different than a child who can't see reason.
*Sigh*
I hope you have a good day sir. Enjoy
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
For the rest here.
Heres my stance
Dps meters - I dont want them without an option to say NO on an individual level.
Actually sometimes you need to not give people the choice. you don't put alcohol in front of an addict and "give them the choice" to not drink... Also L2 didn't have combat trackers, not allowed ones anyway. many mmos didn't in fact.
Comparing people who would prefer DPS meters to addicts that feel a compulsion or desperate need for something is a little disingenuous, and belittling and rude to the people who would prefer them to exist in the game.
Giving a choice on use of DPS meters, on a guild-by-guild basis, seems like an excellent compromise because by joining a guild, you can choose to either opt in or out of this surprisingly controversial option. If you're playing with others who choose not to use it, then you can play without fear of people using them against you and not feel at all like you're missing out. If you're playing with others that choose to use them, then you're with people who have a similar drive to maximize their potential output in an objectively measureable way.
If what you meant to imply by your comment was that people who like DPS meters will choose them if given the option, then you're probably right... but that's a given.
Not intending to be rude, hell I intentionally don’ t buy Soda because I end up drinking a while case in a matter of hours.... not much different. There are many elements that ruin game play for folks by the introduction of trackers. On the flip side, it doesn’t ruin anything by not having them and instead building the game around the idea That raid leaders could still establish their raid efficiency by other means. In L2 for example I was a pvp tactician and main assist for my archer squad, and I learned quickly to identify who the threats were on the battle field by watching what was going on, the gear, the skills cast, the play style, and the damage taken. This set me aside in pvp for being able to process that kind of information and make decisions in real time. Damage meters takes that developed skill and throws many aspects of it out the window. I do strongly believe that the existence of damage meters allows player and leaders to become complacent in figuring out what they should be doing.
You don't need "the entire game" to allow it... human beings tend to focus on singular things for the most part when looking for blame. the easier you make it for players to blame folks, the more you'll see it be an issue. Many games have proven very hard fights to not need DPS meters to win it, you instead rely on understanding and knowing your team. If this game is anything like L2, it will not be PUG friendly especially because of the pvp risk associated with inviting pugs to groups, so guilds/alliances will need to work together to take down bosses, or at the very least a very trusted few cause remember, wiping the team and taking the boss is a thing
Humans tend to focus on single things, sure, but they don't make decisions based on single things. This is why people place the blame on combat trackers rather than on a much more complex set of circumstances. It's a single thing they can point their finger at and place blame, even though it isn't even remotely accurate to do so.
In terms of making a decision though - you are not going to boot someone out of your group if there is no reasonable way to replace them. This is because even though we may look at a single thing in terms of placing blame, we look at the bigger picture in terms of actions.
It absolutely is also true that the easier you make it for people to blame others, the more they will do so, but it is also true that the harder you make that blame take the form of booting people from a group, the less likely that action will become.
The idea here, from my perspective, is not to prevent people from being able to see who is at fault. The idea is to be able to see who is at fault, and then be in a situaiton where the best course of action is to work with that person to help them improve.
As to games that have proven you don't need combat trackers - I don't think this is a relavent point. There is no AAA MMO on the market that doesn't have a combat tracker for it - if you know where to look. As such, it is not really possible to say other games have proven you don't need a combat tracker, as there are no games that exist without combat trackers.
L2 , as an example, absolutely does have combat trackers. One tracker that I can think of from that game in particular is likely to work in Ashes with no more than 30 minutes worth of additional effort. This is one that was made by a person I have been following for a while now that is working on a tracker for Ashes - though they were expecting it to be much harder than it now appears it is going to be.
This persons tracker for L2 has almost half a million downloads - but that is only the ones from their site, players are able (even if not encouraged) to distribute it freely among their friends. This is also only one tracker, there are others.
The problem with that game is people just don't talk about it, even if 10% or more of the population use them (which is an estimation, to be sure).
You are absolutely right that Ashes won't be a particularly PuG friendly game though. That kind of eliminates the main complaint that people have against combat trackers, as it is always pick up type situations where problems occur (more specifically, pick up situations in WoW).
You don’t have to boot the person to make it a toxic environment...
In business, the companies that micromanage fail, companies that work as a team, trust, and empower their people succeed. Groups of players is no different (and I’ve lead both).
That L2 tracker was likely against the ToS as I don’t recall it being allowed by NCSoft. I.e. folks could get banned if caught.
I tend to play with friends/family who are generally PvE/RPers and play MMO's just for fun and are very intimidated when they want to join WoW dungeons due to people asking for "Looking for 12k DPS to kill X boss"... This scares off players to even try and join content.
Exactly. This is what I mean when the pve community gets stagnant and stalls itself out. It just chases away new players.
Whereas people saying "looking for dps,tank, healer" is a lot more open and inviting and promotes a bit more social interactions and you would think in a MMO that would be more important. The knowing mechanics, group composition, and communication will always be more important and I missed the older days when these parts were where the most focus was at and communities thrived on teaching and reaching out to newer/ less experienced players by needing to fill roles rather than filling arbitrary number percentages when people will over dps anyways
If bosses have dps checks/enrage timers or are otherwise more difficult because of dps requirements, you are going to have groups/guilds seeking good players and tossing worse players regardless of whether you have a dps meter or not. I don't care if they do it or not, but in a game where things like looting rights are determined by dps as has been indicated... you better believe people are going to push players one way or another on the dps front. If there are mechanics that set requirements for how much damage or how fast things get killed, they will find a way to assess it with or without a dps meter.
And I'm fine with that. I just dont believe in forced meters for a solution.
Target dummies that give a dps measurement that people may share in order to push those bosses and encounters would be my prefered method. I'm aware that a target dummy doesnt show everything on in a raid, and I like that. It incentivizes players and groups to communicate and work on roles and positioning as the focal point while the dps threshold is a ballpark estimate without over focusing on it.
No, you just think you get to suck, and everyone has to play the way you want. Its literally mind boggling. You are not entitled to be carried. And if you dont want to use meters, dont. But to demand others not have them is something else. It also limits just how hard pve content can be, which means were getting piss easy trash and that hurts the game.
^^
Heres another one angry that someone dares speak out against forced meters lmao.
You guys are fanatics.
I dont care if they exist I care in how its accessed. If you have a problem with that you may as well rename yourself epstein.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2020
I mean how hard is it to respect a playerbase and the individuals. You guys dont even need corruption to show your side as players. Its already plainly evident.
if you can't accept that people have an option to say no to your request you need some serious personal development skills.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I mean how hard is it to respect an playerbase. You guys dont even need corruption to show your side as players. Its already plainly evident.
if you can't accept that people have an option to say no to your request you need some serious personal development skills.
If you don't like them, don't use them, that is the option. You people are the only ones trying to force your play style on others. I don't give a shit if you use them, I however want to get the most from my class.
side note, this happens every single time a new MMO comes out. Trash tier players who live in this bizarre universe of nostalgia think how they played MMO's 20 years ago is the same way it should be played today.. And anyone who dares to disagree with that is not a "true" fan of the genre. And Ill the same thing I said in other games, enjoy your game that is doa. Because without meters and addons at launch the game already has a strike against it.
"If you dont like them dont use them"
Thats exactly what I've proposed. Literally like over 13 posts now. I dont see how this keeps getting skipped over and over and over lol.
Right now guess what? AoC and steven already dont want ANY at all. I actually dont mind if they exist so long as its a request function that can ONLY be given at the players individual consent.
Its. Not. That. Hard. To. Understand.
If I have to highlight it for you I will. I'll hold
your hand and go braill reading with you to if it helps you understand that.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2020
I'm trying very hard to be civil but you guys pushing for dps meters are entirely angry and unwilling to accept other players have choices
And then you ask why so many of us dont want them (dps meters) and question why we think it creates a toxic environment??????!
You have literally shown exactly why they arent wanted in this thread.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2020
It's like you wanted to prove and validate everyones concerns about the toxicity of dps meters players who treat it as the be all end all of their games.
Compromise would be the most logical option here
1. Dps Dummy targets
2. Player consented meter sharing.
I mean anything besides posting insults at everyone who says something different.
Steven is probably looking at how rabid and ill mannered a lot of you are pushing for dps meters here. He reads these forums, and he definitely reads this topics conversation.
You have validated his concerns with these meters and it would not surpise me in the least if he just screen shots your posts and puts them up as evidence every time hes asked "why dont you want dps meters in the game"
I would like target dummies as a decent compromise but hell he's not likely to even include those now looking at how you act.
Either way though I'm still full in support of the game not having them anyways.
So its a moot point
You claim to have some experience in MMO's.
I'm going to list off a few things that I consider basic facts, if you disagree with any of these, let me know.
1, Top end raiders will have a combat tracker.
2, That combat tracker will need to be efficient to use in order for top end raiders to use it.
3, The combat tracker that top end raiders may be something they need to keep hidden from Intrepid.
4, A third party combat tracker will not have any provision for player consent.
5, Guilds tend to exist of people that want to play the game in the same generall manner.
6, Many players that imitate what they think top end players do will use the combat tracker that top end players use, if they have access to it.
---
Now, I am all for requring consent in order to be tracked. It isn't my personal preference, but I fully agree that if you do not want to be tracked, it should be your call.
The question then shifts on to how to make that a reality.
Starting off with the status quo, with nothing at all built in to the game, top end raiders will find and use a tool. Players that are wannabe top tier players will find out what tool we use, and will then acquire it and misuse it - as is the case in many other games out there (to differing degrees of issue).
Sure, the tool may be against the rules (it may not, as well), but it is absolutely possible to design a combat tracker in a way where it is not able to be detected.
This would mean that basically anyone that wants to track combat is able to do so without anyone else knowing about it. I have to assume this would be what you would consider the worst possible outcome.
So the nest thing to consider are the personal combat trackers as you have suggested. These would cause delays around waiting on people to send data after each pull. A system like that would not be efficient enough for top end players to use, and so top end players simply wouldn't. They would revert back to the system above, and use third party trackers.
While a system could be implemented where you give perpetual consent to always have your data sent to a specific player or group, this would still be worse than a built in combat tracker at the guild level.
If there is a way for players to ask to see combat data, that is what they will do. People will be recruited in to guilds based on that, and groups will form based on that data. If you do not provide taht data, you do not get in to the group or guild.
Thus you still have people being excluded - but rather than being excluded based on what the data says, they are being excluded based on not wanting to share it.
To me, this would be even worse in terms of social impact that having a combat tracker that is available to use for all. The develoeprs would essentially be building in to the game a means for players to divide themselves at all levels and in all areas, and to do so by both philosophy and ability - which is clearly bad.
If we then look at the guild tracker, as suggested, there is no situation where players can ask to see data. You are either in the same guild as that person and so have access to it, or you and not in that guild, and so do not have access to it.
There is no middle ground, no potential conflict point in which players could split up in to many small groups across all segments of the player base.
All that would happen with this is that top end raiders would be in guilds - as they are now, casual players would be in guilds - as they are now, PvP'ers would be in guild - as they are now, crafters would be in guilds - as they are not, and people that run group content would be in guilds - as they are now.
From there, each of these groups would then have the option to pick something that perfectly matches their particular penchant. Guilds that are more casual will have an obvious choice as to what would best suit that guild, as would PvP guilds, crafting guilds etc.
I am not making any suggestions as to what these things could be, as I believe that people that play the game in these areas would be able to come up with better suggestions than I would.
The way it should be designed though, is that only guilds with plans to take on top end raid content would even consider taking the combat tracker, if you are looking at anythign else - even taking on mid tier raids - then there is something else there that is far more useful to you and your guild.
If you are in a guild that you think is more casual oriented, and they pick the perk that is only really suitable for top end guilds, then you know that you are probably in the wrong guild, as they obviously have far more top end ambitions than they have let on. Regardless of what system of combat tracker the game allows the guild to use, if they have designs on taking on that content, you will not have the option of opting out - the guild will not provide you with that option.
And that is essentially the point - if you are in a guild that wants to track your combat, you have the option of saying yes, or leaving. It doesn't matter what system of tracker is in place - this will always be true.
In a system with individual combat trackers that are able to be shared, you will have far more people tracking your combat than you would in a system where only top end guilds have a combat tracker as a guild perk, that only works on guild members.
The TL;DR here is that personal combat trackers will see you excluded from groups and guilds if you do not share, it is basically building an exclusion system in to the game. If it is guild based and limited to within the guild, there is no real way to exclude people. Lastly, in both cases, you won't have any say in regards to people in your guild having access to track your combat should they want to do that - but only one of these options allows you to group with others without having to supply said data.
I will say that I totally agree with you that compromise is the best possible thing here. The thing you have to do though, is you have to think of the consequences of the things you do still. The consequences of personal trackers with consented sharing is that people won't give you the option to consent if you also want to participate.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Either way though I'm still full in support of the game not having them anyways.
So its a moot point
You claim to have some experience in MMO's.
I'm going to list off a few things that I consider basic facts, if you disagree with any of these, let me know.
1, Top end raiders will have a combat tracker.
2, That combat tracker will need to be efficient to use in order for top end raiders to use it.
3, The combat tracker that top end raiders may be something they need to keep hidden from Intrepid.
4, A third party combat tracker will not have any provision for player consent.
5, Guilds tend to exist of people that want to play the game in the same generall manner.
6, Many players that imitate what they think top end players do will use the combat tracker that top end players use, if they have access to it.
---
Now, I am all for requring consent in order to be tracked. It isn't my personal preference, but I fully agree that if you do not want to be tracked, it should be your call.
The question then shifts on to how to make that a reality.
Starting off with the status quo, with nothing at all built in to the game, top end raiders will find and use a tool. Players that are wannabe top tier players will find out what tool we use, and will then acquire it and misuse it - as is the case in many other games out there (to differing degrees of issue).
Sure, the tool may be against the rules (it may not, as well), but it is absolutely possible to design a combat tracker in a way where it is not able to be detected.
This would mean that basically anyone that wants to track combat is able to do so without anyone else knowing about it. I have to assume this would be what you would consider the worst possible outcome.
So the nest thing to consider are the personal combat trackers as you have suggested. These would cause delays around waiting on people to send data after each pull. A system like that would not be efficient enough for top end players to use, and so top end players simply wouldn't. They would revert back to the system above, and use third party trackers.
While a system could be implemented where you give perpetual consent to always have your data sent to a specific player or group, this would still be worse than a built in combat tracker at the guild level.
If there is a way for players to ask to see combat data, that is what they will do. People will be recruited in to guilds based on that, and groups will form based on that data. If you do not provide taht data, you do not get in to the group or guild.
Thus you still have people being excluded - but rather than being excluded based on what the data says, they are being excluded based on not wanting to share it.
To me, this would be even worse in terms of social impact that having a combat tracker that is available to use for all. The develoeprs would essentially be building in to the game a means for players to divide themselves at all levels and in all areas, and to do so by both philosophy and ability - which is clearly bad.
If we then look at the guild tracker, as suggested, there is no situation where players can ask to see data. You are either in the same guild as that person and so have access to it, or you and not in that guild, and so do not have access to it.
There is no middle ground, no potential conflict point in which players could split up in to many small groups across all segments of the player base.
All that would happen with this is that top end raiders would be in guilds - as they are now, casual players would be in guilds - as they are now, PvP'ers would be in guild - as they are now, crafters would be in guilds - as they are not, and people that run group content would be in guilds - as they are now.
From there, each of these groups would then have the option to pick something that perfectly matches their particular penchant. Guilds that are more casual will have an obvious choice as to what would best suit that guild, as would PvP guilds, crafting guilds etc.
I am not making any suggestions as to what these things could be, as I believe that people that play the game in these areas would be able to come up with better suggestions than I would.
The way it should be designed though, is that only guilds with plans to take on top end raid content would even consider taking the combat tracker, if you are looking at anythign else - even taking on mid tier raids - then there is something else there that is far more useful to you and your guild.
If you are in a guild that you think is more casual oriented, and they pick the perk that is only really suitable for top end guilds, then you know that you are probably in the wrong guild, as they obviously have far more top end ambitions than they have let on. Regardless of what system of combat tracker the game allows the guild to use, if they have designs on taking on that content, you will not have the option of opting out - the guild will not provide you with that option.
And that is essentially the point - if you are in a guild that wants to track your combat, you have the option of saying yes, or leaving. It doesn't matter what system of tracker is in place - this will always be true.
In a system with individual combat trackers that are able to be shared, you will have far more people tracking your combat than you would in a system where only top end guilds have a combat tracker as a guild perk, that only works on guild members.
The TL;DR here is that personal combat trackers will see you excluded from groups and guilds if you do not share, it is basically building an exclusion system in to the game. If it is guild based and limited to within the guild, there is no real way to exclude people. Lastly, in both cases, you won't have any say in regards to people in your guild having access to track your combat should they want to do that - but only one of these options allows you to group with others without having to supply said data.
I get what you're saying but as long as its a option that is relayed and requires consent on an individual basis its already good enough as a barrier to exclusion in my books. The point being here is that if the guild leaders suddenly try to be sneaky or they turn into something else over time, I like that they would be required to request permission to see that information because it would even out the individuals rights and the groups. Tbh this wasnt my idea, it was just me trying to accomodate for an additional option.
Again I (personally) dont want ANY combat tracking at all. I simply am trying to relay what I would be okay with. If the devs figure out a way to put it into a guild design without incentiving the behaviours we've witnessed in this thread then great, I'm all for it. I just dont believe its possible, and alot of people in this thread already showed me why.
Will some people immediatly upfront it as a requirement sure, but the fact is they still have to ask directly for your consent which is still more dialouge and interaction than just the guild leader hitting a button and getting it all regardless at a random point in time.
My preference would still be target dummies as the best compromise. But at this point I'm 100% okay with nothing because this thread has drained me.
Comments
Why have all that instead of just simply having a private meter? You ASK the individual and they either consent or dont. The players decide what to do afterwards.
Like I said there is no justifiable reason to be against a consensual basis for the individual players.
As for third party software if they want to risk the ban for it, or the risk of downloading software onto their rig, more power to them.
It means exactly what the definition is.
Just because you dont like someone having the choice to say NO to your meters doesn't change that.
@noaani pointed it out best, private meters lead to people asking them for pugs, guild meters can only be used in guilds that you CONSENT TO PLAY WITH.
Also private meters are a hassle, do you really want to spend every raid wipe spending 40 minutes for everyone to send their logs to the raid lead?
Yup absolutely. So long as I have the choice
So its a moot point
You do have the choice though, you dense asshole. You have the choice to not join the guild.
I really usually do not do that. But after I stopped laughing so hard i snorted coffee all over my keyboard, i got flashbacks from the Innoruuk/Uqua raids I was on.
Someone seems a bit angry here. I already explained why joining the guild and the guild non-consensually having access to my private data in the game is still a problem if joined and the leader/leaders do the exact opposite.
What exactly is it about people having a choice in this that seems to upset you so much?
Ask and move on. Otherwise I'm with Steven on this for no meters.
It seems pretty simple to just respect people.
I did not ignore it. I simply stated that I dont want it, unless the individual can say NO to the system on and Individual basis without the radical need to leave every guild that has it on.
You are just (for whatever reason) against people saying no to you forcefully accessing data.
I'm sticking 100% with steven on this
And I'm the only one between us not resorting to base insults.
The moment you started with insults you lost the argument.
"LFM 3 DPS for raid. Link logs or no invite!"
it also introduces another problem that competitive guilds will have to spend needless hours of time each raid night just posting all their logs between encounters
Nowadays one has to be glad if Godwin's Law is not called upon within 3 pages of a controversial subject.
I dont want combat logs at all.
I was simply saying I could be amendable to a meter if they are added but with individual consent. It may not stop the toxicity but I can live with it if theres a way to say no.
lol this is true. Thankfully I don't think it has been brought yet. But we're 50 pages deep now so theres still time lol
I'm not advocating for anyone to "enforce my playstyle" on anyone else. You are being willfully ignorant and obtuse with your "logic" being based on feelings. No different than a child who can't see reason.
*Sigh*
I hope you have a good day sir. Enjoy
Heres my stance
Dps meters - I dont want them without an option to say NO on an individual level.
Dps target dummies- I wouldnt mind
BTW no dps meter is the way.
You don’t have to boot the person to make it a toxic environment...
In business, the companies that micromanage fail, companies that work as a team, trust, and empower their people succeed. Groups of players is no different (and I’ve lead both).
That L2 tracker was likely against the ToS as I don’t recall it being allowed by NCSoft. I.e. folks could get banned if caught.
^^
Heres another one angry that someone dares speak out against forced meters lmao.
You guys are fanatics.
I dont care if they exist I care in how its accessed. If you have a problem with that you may as well rename yourself epstein.
if you can't accept that people have an option to say no to your request you need some serious personal development skills.
"If you dont like them dont use them"
Thats exactly what I've proposed. Literally like over 13 posts now. I dont see how this keeps getting skipped over and over and over lol.
Right now guess what? AoC and steven already dont want ANY at all. I actually dont mind if they exist so long as its a request function that can ONLY be given at the players individual consent.
Its. Not. That. Hard. To. Understand.
If I have to highlight it for you I will. I'll hold
your hand and go braill reading with you to if it helps you understand that.
And then you ask why so many of us dont want them (dps meters) and question why we think it creates a toxic environment??????!
You have literally shown exactly why they arent wanted in this thread.
Compromise would be the most logical option here
1. Dps Dummy targets
2. Player consented meter sharing.
I mean anything besides posting insults at everyone who says something different.
Steven is probably looking at how rabid and ill mannered a lot of you are pushing for dps meters here. He reads these forums, and he definitely reads this topics conversation.
You have validated his concerns with these meters and it would not surpise me in the least if he just screen shots your posts and puts them up as evidence every time hes asked "why dont you want dps meters in the game"
I would like target dummies as a decent compromise but hell he's not likely to even include those now looking at how you act.
I'm going to list off a few things that I consider basic facts, if you disagree with any of these, let me know.
1, Top end raiders will have a combat tracker.
2, That combat tracker will need to be efficient to use in order for top end raiders to use it.
3, The combat tracker that top end raiders may be something they need to keep hidden from Intrepid.
4, A third party combat tracker will not have any provision for player consent.
5, Guilds tend to exist of people that want to play the game in the same generall manner.
6, Many players that imitate what they think top end players do will use the combat tracker that top end players use, if they have access to it.
---
Now, I am all for requring consent in order to be tracked. It isn't my personal preference, but I fully agree that if you do not want to be tracked, it should be your call.
The question then shifts on to how to make that a reality.
Starting off with the status quo, with nothing at all built in to the game, top end raiders will find and use a tool. Players that are wannabe top tier players will find out what tool we use, and will then acquire it and misuse it - as is the case in many other games out there (to differing degrees of issue).
Sure, the tool may be against the rules (it may not, as well), but it is absolutely possible to design a combat tracker in a way where it is not able to be detected.
This would mean that basically anyone that wants to track combat is able to do so without anyone else knowing about it. I have to assume this would be what you would consider the worst possible outcome.
So the nest thing to consider are the personal combat trackers as you have suggested. These would cause delays around waiting on people to send data after each pull. A system like that would not be efficient enough for top end players to use, and so top end players simply wouldn't. They would revert back to the system above, and use third party trackers.
While a system could be implemented where you give perpetual consent to always have your data sent to a specific player or group, this would still be worse than a built in combat tracker at the guild level.
If there is a way for players to ask to see combat data, that is what they will do. People will be recruited in to guilds based on that, and groups will form based on that data. If you do not provide taht data, you do not get in to the group or guild.
Thus you still have people being excluded - but rather than being excluded based on what the data says, they are being excluded based on not wanting to share it.
To me, this would be even worse in terms of social impact that having a combat tracker that is available to use for all. The develoeprs would essentially be building in to the game a means for players to divide themselves at all levels and in all areas, and to do so by both philosophy and ability - which is clearly bad.
If we then look at the guild tracker, as suggested, there is no situation where players can ask to see data. You are either in the same guild as that person and so have access to it, or you and not in that guild, and so do not have access to it.
There is no middle ground, no potential conflict point in which players could split up in to many small groups across all segments of the player base.
All that would happen with this is that top end raiders would be in guilds - as they are now, casual players would be in guilds - as they are now, PvP'ers would be in guild - as they are now, crafters would be in guilds - as they are not, and people that run group content would be in guilds - as they are now.
From there, each of these groups would then have the option to pick something that perfectly matches their particular penchant. Guilds that are more casual will have an obvious choice as to what would best suit that guild, as would PvP guilds, crafting guilds etc.
I am not making any suggestions as to what these things could be, as I believe that people that play the game in these areas would be able to come up with better suggestions than I would.
The way it should be designed though, is that only guilds with plans to take on top end raid content would even consider taking the combat tracker, if you are looking at anythign else - even taking on mid tier raids - then there is something else there that is far more useful to you and your guild.
If you are in a guild that you think is more casual oriented, and they pick the perk that is only really suitable for top end guilds, then you know that you are probably in the wrong guild, as they obviously have far more top end ambitions than they have let on. Regardless of what system of combat tracker the game allows the guild to use, if they have designs on taking on that content, you will not have the option of opting out - the guild will not provide you with that option.
And that is essentially the point - if you are in a guild that wants to track your combat, you have the option of saying yes, or leaving. It doesn't matter what system of tracker is in place - this will always be true.
In a system with individual combat trackers that are able to be shared, you will have far more people tracking your combat than you would in a system where only top end guilds have a combat tracker as a guild perk, that only works on guild members.
The TL;DR here is that personal combat trackers will see you excluded from groups and guilds if you do not share, it is basically building an exclusion system in to the game. If it is guild based and limited to within the guild, there is no real way to exclude people. Lastly, in both cases, you won't have any say in regards to people in your guild having access to track your combat should they want to do that - but only one of these options allows you to group with others without having to supply said data.
I will say that I totally agree with you that compromise is the best possible thing here. The thing you have to do though, is you have to think of the consequences of the things you do still. The consequences of personal trackers with consented sharing is that people won't give you the option to consent if you also want to participate.
I get what you're saying but as long as its a option that is relayed and requires consent on an individual basis its already good enough as a barrier to exclusion in my books. The point being here is that if the guild leaders suddenly try to be sneaky or they turn into something else over time, I like that they would be required to request permission to see that information because it would even out the individuals rights and the groups. Tbh this wasnt my idea, it was just me trying to accomodate for an additional option.
Again I (personally) dont want ANY combat tracking at all. I simply am trying to relay what I would be okay with. If the devs figure out a way to put it into a guild design without incentiving the behaviours we've witnessed in this thread then great, I'm all for it. I just dont believe its possible, and alot of people in this thread already showed me why.
Will some people immediatly upfront it as a requirement sure, but the fact is they still have to ask directly for your consent which is still more dialouge and interaction than just the guild leader hitting a button and getting it all regardless at a random point in time.
My preference would still be target dummies as the best compromise. But at this point I'm 100% okay with nothing because this thread has drained me.