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DPS Meter Megathread

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Comments

  • This is the best point I have seen in this discussion yet
    A lot of people who complain about DPS meters/combat trackers cause toxicity are typically the casual players that are interacting with other casual players. In particular, a vast portion of it comes from more casual guilds/players trying to mimic what they think hardcore guilds/players are like.

    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • Aeri wrote: »
    In particular, a vast portion of it comes from more casual guilds/players trying to mimic what they think hardcore guilds/players are like.

    That's exactly the problem though. It benefits a tiny minority of players, while breeding toxicity and resentment in the rest of them. Ultimately hardcore raid guilds will be fine, they're dedicated enough to either push through the limitations, find no limitations to need overcoming, or move on to a different game. If however the rest of the playerbase is now glued to meters, the well is poisoned. Casual players can't deal with the power that these tools provide, and explaining not to use it won't help. Players will use it, misuse it, rely on it, and blame anything but themselves for not having any fun.
  • "That's exactly the problem though. It benefits a tiny minority of players, while breeding toxicity and resentment in the rest of them"

    This is going to happen no matter what though. With no dps meters, 3rd party will be involved, so there will always be meters. But let's say for the sake of argument there is no meters whatsoever. Then the conversation turns into:
    "Hey, why aren't you using this guide posted by the best guild in the game? You're trash get out"
    "Sorry, we only accept these 4 classes, because Method is class stacking for this particular raid and we want to do that"
    "Lol, why are you playing THAT secondary archetype? Don't you know it's trash? It's been confirmed suboptimal by AshesLegend42069 on youtube dude." (this can be easily disproved with meters btw)
    "Hey Intrepid, this boss is mathematically impossible please nerf it! (gets proved later on that it was actually undertuned all along and the players were just shit)"

    Toxicity will always be present and people will always find ways to parrot/bandwagon the "high level player" (whether they are doing it effectively or not). At least with DPS meters, it's objective data and not subjective feelings.


    If you were on trial, would you rather a judge look at objective facts or would you rather them judge you on your appearance and how they are feeling that day? Maybe you didn't actually do a crime, but the judge woke up hungover, felt like shit, and decided he didn't like your shirt. Now you are facing 10 years in jail. I'd rather face 10 years in jail because there was objective data saying I did wrong, than people subjectively "feeling" that I'm wrong.
  • BeekeeperBeekeeper Member
    edited August 2020
    Linstead wrote: »
    [...]it's objective data and not subjective feelings.

    It's good that it's subjective. That way, it's never so firm that it can't be nudged out of the spotlight. I don't want an authority to tell me what's "objectively" the best approach, I want to have some discovery for myself. And if people use guides and are dicks about it, so be it, at least they won't have any more authority than any other high level player. It's easier to ignore wackos if they're not using numbers.

    I'd rather not argue about 3rd party stuff, since yes, that will happen anyway, but so will cheaters and bots. Doesn't mean anything really, just that people are always desperate for shortcuts.
  • AeriAeri Member, Settler, Kickstarter
    Beekeeper wrote: »
    That's exactly the problem though. It benefits a tiny minority of players, while breeding toxicity and resentment in the rest of them. Ultimately hardcore raid guilds will be fine, they're dedicated enough to either push through the limitations, find no limitations to need overcoming, or move on to a different game. If however the rest of the playerbase is now glued to meters, the well is poisoned. Casual players can't deal with the power that these tools provide, and explaining not to use it won't help. Players will use it, misuse it, rely on it, and blame anything but themselves for not having any fun.

    Except, it doesn't just benefit a tiny minority of players, it benefits a rather large portion of the playerbase, and realistically could benefit the entire playerbase. The problems come from people who have a mindset of "I want to do what I want, and I don't need to improve. Oh, but I want all the absolute best gear in the game, so gimme gimme gimme!"
  • How would it benefit the rest of the playerbase, besides providing what are essentially speedrunning guides?
  • NelsonRebelNelsonRebel Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    noaani wrote: »
    @nelsonrebel

    Not that I expect a reply, you seem more interested in throwing your pre-concieved and ill-informed opinion on combat trackers around without actually engaging in proper discussion, but I'll continue to attempt as much.
    But how will 3rd party play into it with no addons for AoC?
    There are already three combat trackers in development for Ashes, two of which I am personally following (the third I am not, due to not agreeing with the methodolgy used).
    And higher end gaming guilds can go do that in their small circles without imposing in game demands on everyone. They want to
    go the extra mile in damage, they can do that on their time.

    The barrier of entry in the game world wont exist for the vast majority of players and get the enjoyment of being interactive with the majority with no barriers.

    This is the exact result that my suggestion of putting combat trackers in as a guild perk would result in.

    Higher end guilds would use them, other guilds wouldn't. I'm not sure why you consider this to be ok but not my suggestion.
    Thats only going to be for the people actively seaking the meters and actively willingly going to download the software and trust that its correct all to appease the one person/group wanting it.

    The majority of players wont do that. Because of the legwork required and the more fun interactions between players.
    History would suggest that over time, more and more people will make use of a combat tracker if it is available for the game.

    Since there is a damn good chance that all that is needed for a combat tracker in Ashes is some freely available commercial software, and an existing and well known combat tracker with a plug in, the barrier to entry isn't that high when considering people will be playing Ashes for multiple years.
    Dps meters are not a game rank system, its an instanced measure of a specifc encounter in a pve area against one of many bosses to create standards of dps to exclude others regardless of everything else and have a forced measuring with or without player consent

    Once again, this is blatantly false.

    In order to say this is what a combat tracker is, you are saying these things are inherent to combat trackers. If these things were inherent to combat trackers, they would happen in any game that has combat trackers.

    Literally any player that has played a game with combat trackers that is not WoW, knows without even thinking about it that the issues in WoW are not present in other games.

    As such, you simply can not make blanket statements like the above in regards to combat trackers in all games.

    This is simply a case of your complete and obvious inexperience in MMO's coming through and coloring your opinion on the topic.


    I respond if I choose to do so. Just like dps meters could be provided on an individual and personal and private basis from a target dummy if players CHOOSE to do so. Something you seem to have completely skipped over that I've mentioned on nearly every post that I've reiterated that at least a dozen times now.


    But since your so keen on a response with an icy chip on your shoulder that it seems like I've offended you personally in some way because of my disdain for toxic meters.

    1. To my knowledge Steven has already explicitly stated they are not implementing dps trackers. If thats incorrect provide the statement showing otherwise and I'll revise my stance on that information since addons are also not being allowed in AoC.

    2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content


    3. DPS meters are not a game ranking system.

    This isn't a debate. There are no ingame rewards, loots, titles for being in a dps meter for how you performed on a measured encounter with a pve boss. They are a tool that is used.

    I dont know if you just read what I typed wrong or you constructed it differently in your head.

    It is FACT they are instanced measurments of a pve encounter gauging damage and percentages of each encounter specifically. Thats literally the function of what happens with a meter...

    As for your snarky last portion of your post just being plain insulting and making wild accussations because people from multiple years of mmo's commenting and saying similar things that I have as well, I'm just not going to stoop to that level simply because I disagree here. Being insulting because I posted why I disagree is just indicative of a logical and reasonable lacking. You should watch some jordan peterson videos they are helpful in this regard.

    (And no that is not me trying to insult, it is a cultural issue in todays society to attack others personally instead of being logical and reasonable)
  • NelsonRebelNelsonRebel Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I am not against any form of a meter as long as the function has to be consented by the player. But I would prefer none.


    Target dummies with a meter for individuals to use and guage themselves would be my prefered middle ground.
  • MavickMavick Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2020

    2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content

    This isn't true. Games have always had toxicity in them whether these exist or not. This makes an easy target since people choose to express it through that. But as I said in another post, if they don't exist, they'll just express it in other ways instead. They, in no way whatsoever, represent the onset of toxicity in any game I've ever played. I dislike seeing arguments like this being used, since there's such little thought put into it.

    It's pretty natural when people start out in a new game to experience a sort of nirvana stage where everyone is happy and working together to figure new systems out. Which is no doubt that state that everyone who disagrees with my comment above will recall. But in every game I've ever played, going all the way back to SWG, as time goes on people get more set and "cranky" and you see that toxicity start to creep in, meters/trackers or not.
  • AeriAeri Member, Settler, Kickstarter
    Beekeeper wrote: »
    How would it benefit the rest of the playerbase, besides providing what are essentially speedrunning guides?

    Simply because it provides an increased opportunity to learn and improve. If people choose not to utilize it, that's their choice.

    It would be the same concept as someone choosing not to go to school. Does going to school always equate to someone being more educated? No, but IN GENERAL it will lead to that. Can someone who doesn't go to school succeed in the same things that other people who do go to school do? Sure, but it generally takes a very motivated person, and realistically it is EXTREMELY RARE. Many people try and use common examples of, say, Einstein, Steve Jobs, or the like to argue against this,t but these situations are literally like the 0.000001% of the population that are highly successful after they dropped out of school or whatnot.
  • mavick wrote: »

    2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content

    This isn't true. Games have always had toxicity in them whether these exist or not. This makes an easy target since people choose to express it through that. But as I said in another post, if they don't exist, they'll just express it in other ways instead. They, in no way whatsoever, represent the onset of toxicity in any game I've ever played. I dislike seeing arguments like this being used, since there's such little thought put into it.

    This. Toxicity exists in any multiplayer game, period. It doesn't matter if it's an MMO, if it tracks kills/damage, or anything else. Hell there are toxic players in animal crossing for god's sake.
  • NelsonRebelNelsonRebel Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    mavick wrote: »

    2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content

    This isn't true. Games have always had toxicity in them whether these exist or not. This makes an easy target since people choose to express it through that. But as I said in another post, if they don't exist, they'll just express it in other ways instead. They, in no way whatsoever, represent the onset of toxicity in any game I've ever played. I dislike seeing arguments like this being used, since there's such little thought put into it.


    I disagree, from my experience (apparently stevens as well) Meters ruined the pve community in the majority of my gaming times.

    And eventually disuaded any new players from being engaged with to do content to the point the content stagnated to only a few trials guilds doing any of the content.

    This is not universally true but it is what I've experienced for the majority of the mmo's I've played. It just incentivizes and makes toxic behaviour easier to implement because of the meters usage to single out folks or blanket blame.


    And while you are correct that toxic behaviour will happen regardless in other ways, this one is by and far the biggest offender because of it's easy access and specificity. Removing it makes the toxic behaviour that much more difficult.
  • LinsteadLinstead Member
    edited August 2020
    mavick wrote: »

    2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content

    This isn't true. Games have always had toxicity in them whether these exist or not. This makes an easy target since people choose to express it through that. But as I said in another post, if they don't exist, they'll just express it in other ways instead. They, in no way whatsoever, represent the onset of toxicity in any game I've ever played. I dislike seeing arguments like this being used, since there's such little thought put into it.


    I disagree, from my experience (apparently stevens as well) Meters ruined the pve community in the majority of my gaming times.

    And eventually disuaded any new players from being engaged with to do content to the point the content stagnated to only a few trials guilds doing any of the content.

    This is not universally true but it is what I've experienced for the majority of the mmo's I've played. It just incentivizes and makes toxic behaviour easier to implement because of the meters usage to single out folks or blanket blame.


    And while you are correct that toxic behaviour will happen regardless in other ways, this one is by and far the biggest offender because of it's easy access and specificity. Removing it makes the toxic behaviour that much more difficult.

    People who are poor are more likely to get bullied by people at school. Should we ban poor (or rich people) people from attending school to get rid of bullying?
  • MavickMavick Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two

    I disagree, from my experience (apparently stevens as well) Meters ruined the pve community in the majority of my gaming times.

    And eventually disuaded any new players from being engaged with to do content to the point the content stagnated to only a few trials guilds doing any of the content.

    This is not universally true but it is what I've experienced for the majority of the mmo's I've played. It just incentivizes and makes toxic behaviour easier to implement because of the meters usage to single out folks or blanket blame.


    And while you are correct that toxic behaviour will happen regardless in other ways, this one is by and far the biggest offender because of it's easy access and specificity. Removing it makes the toxic behaviour that much more difficult.

    Again, it just sounds silly to be blaming a tool for what people choose to do with their actions. I've seen your exact argument being used for years, it's always comes across as overstated, i.e.: it killed x game, when it actually did not, in truth. I know people like to be hyperbolic and we're emotional creatures. But that doesn't necessarily add up to good arguments.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Linstead wrote: »
    People who are poor are more likely to get bullied by people at school. Should we ban poor (or rich people) people from attending school to get rid of bullying?

    It is a poor argument because severe Bullies can get excluded in my country.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • NelsonRebelNelsonRebel Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Linstead wrote: »
    mavick wrote: »

    2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content

    This isn't true. Games have always had toxicity in them whether these exist or not. This makes an easy target since people choose to express it through that. But as I said in another post, if they don't exist, they'll just express it in other ways instead. They, in no way whatsoever, represent the onset of toxicity in any game I've ever played. I dislike seeing arguments like this being used, since there's such little thought put into it.


    I disagree, from my experience (apparently stevens as well) Meters ruined the pve community in the majority of my gaming times.

    And eventually disuaded any new players from being engaged with to do content to the point the content stagnated to only a few trials guilds doing any of the content.

    This is not universally true but it is what I've experienced for the majority of the mmo's I've played. It just incentivizes and makes toxic behaviour easier to implement because of the meters usage to single out folks or blanket blame.


    And while you are correct that toxic behaviour will happen regardless in other ways, this one is by and far the biggest offender because of it's easy access and specificity. Removing it makes the toxic behaviour that much more difficult.

    People who are poor are more likely to get bullied by people at school. Should we ban poor (or rich people) people from attending school to get rid of bullying?

    I dont know what school you went to but thats not how I've ever seen it.

    Really its the poor people bullying the rich for having more money and being "preppy" is the word I guess? I dont know what kids call it these days.

    But I'll digress. Your metaphor is trying to make a connection and simplify the issue to should meters be banned?

    Please look at my previous posts

    I have said this so many times now I'm getting very weary of repeating it.

    I do NOT mind personal and private meters that individuals can share to guage themselves and compare with others.

    Any form of group forces method without player consent yes I'm absolutely against.

    I would prefer target dummies as a middle ground.
  • Neurath wrote: »
    Linstead wrote: »
    People who are poor are more likely to get bullied by people at school. Should we ban poor (or rich people) people from attending school to get rid of bullying?

    It is a poor argument because severe Bullies can get excluded in my country.

    That's actually a great analogy, because you just presented the perfect solution. You aren't getting rid of the meters (poor people at school), you are instead banning the toxic shitheads that would abuse the meters to be toxic (excluding severe bullies).
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The debate is a pointless debate. If you use Third Party Applications then at present you will be banned.

    It is not a situation where you can sweet talk your way out of a ban. It is a confirmed Ban. We keep going in circles. The issue for me is whether IS should create a DPS Meter, not whether someone should or shouldn't create a third party DPS Meter. The reason being anyone using a third party DPS Meter will be banned.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • NelsonRebelNelsonRebel Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    mavick wrote: »

    I disagree, from my experience (apparently stevens as well) Meters ruined the pve community in the majority of my gaming times.

    And eventually disuaded any new players from being engaged with to do content to the point the content stagnated to only a few trials guilds doing any of the content.

    This is not universally true but it is what I've experienced for the majority of the mmo's I've played. It just incentivizes and makes toxic behaviour easier to implement because of the meters usage to single out folks or blanket blame.


    And while you are correct that toxic behaviour will happen regardless in other ways, this one is by and far the biggest offender because of it's easy access and specificity. Removing it makes the toxic behaviour that much more difficult.

    Again, it just sounds silly to be blaming a tool for what people choose to do with their actions. I've seen your exact argument being used for years, it's always comes across as overstated, i.e.: it killed x game, when it actually did not, in truth. I know people like to be hyperbolic and we're emotional creatures. But that doesn't necessarily add up to good arguments.

    I'm just going to copy and paste because no one is reading what I wrote xD

    ******************
    Please look at my previous posts

    I have said this so many times now I'm getting very weary of repeating it.

    I do NOT mind personal and private meters that individuals can share to guage themselves and compare with others.

    Any form of group forces method without player consent yes I'm absolutely against.

    I would prefer target dummies as a middle ground
    *********************
  • MavickMavick Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Just to add, rather than edit my post:

    If we're really going to blame tools like this when toxic behavior happens you should really think about where that might lead to. It could be that some of those games that never had them simply died or fell off for not having the depth and complexity as an added bonus, opposed to other games that do and have largely kept thriving. Just a thought.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depth and complexity? I believe DPS Meters reduce the depth and the complexity. Some refer to EQ and claim DPS Meters made life easier - which is the whole issue with DPS Meters. In EQ you were considered a good player if you could clear the content, in EQ you had little to no feedback at all in the content. DPS Meters changed this of course, but, it simplified the methods.

    It boggles my mind how adamant some are for DPS Meters when we have no knowledge of the High End Raids. We have no knowledge of the depth, no knowledge of the complexity, no knowledge of most of the classes.

    We have been told there won't be a DPS Meter. To me it signifies the encounters won't need a DPS Meter. It would be bad Raid design if an encounter requires a DPS Meter and we can be banned for DPS Meters.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • NelsonRebelNelsonRebel Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    Neurath wrote: »
    Depth and complexity? I believe DPS Meters reduce the depth and the complexity. Some refer to EQ and claim DPS Meters made life easier - which is the whole issue with DPS Meters. In EQ you were considered a good player if you could clear the content, in EQ you had little to no feedback at all in the content. DPS Meters changed this of course, but, it simplified the methods.

    It boggles my mind how adamant some are for DPS Meters when we have no knowledge of the High End Raids. We have no knowledge of the depth, no knowledge of the complexity, no knowledge of most of the classes.

    We have been told there won't be a DPS Meter. To me it signifies the encounters won't need a DPS Meter. It would be bad Raid design if an encounter requires a DPS Meter and we can be banned for DPS Meters.

    This here I agree with 100%

    I can be amendable to private meters, or damage dummies to practice on.


    But I prefer no dps meters for this whole posts reason. I have never felt that complexity or depth came from meters but reduced it to a percentage graph out of the game. Others may see it differently but I'll just have to agree to disagree with them
  • SaraphitaSaraphita Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    I don't think DPS meters themselves are problematic. What IS problematic is how players take that information and utilize it.

    This is not an exhaustive list, but I think you really just have to look at the pros and cons and pick whichever is best for the game.

    Pros:
    • Opportunity to see your quantitative output and make self-improvement
    • Would give the ability to compare secondary class choices, gear, etc. for the same primary class
    • Lend guilds (particularly raiding guilds) the ability to set some standards for applicants

    Cons:
    • Can create a toxic environment where low performers are ridiculed and ostracized rather than helped
    • Once you are branded as "bad", you are generally not given advice (just told you suck) or a 2nd chance if you've improved greatly since last grouping
    • Gatekeeping begins to happen (e.g. "LFM <class> - Must be able to do at least 500 DPS")
    • Performing other vital tasks (kiting, CC, etc.) in fights gets discouraged because the focus is often too much on damage

    For me personally I like the pros, but I think the cons can inevitably create an undesirable game experience. I agree with Steven on this one.
  • LinsteadLinstead Member
    edited August 2020
    saraphita wrote: »
    I don't think DPS meters themselves are problematic. What IS problematic is how players take that information and utilize it.

    This is not an exhaustive list, but I think you really just have to look at the pros and cons and pick whichever is best for the game.

    Pros:
    • Opportunity to see your quantitative output and make self-improvement
    • Would give the ability to compare secondary class choices, gear, etc. for the same primary class
    • Lend guilds (particularly raiding guilds) the ability to set some standards for applicants

    Cons:
    • Can create a toxic environment where low performers are ridiculed and ostracized rather than helped
    • Once you are branded as "bad", you are generally not given advice (just told you suck) or a 2nd chance if you've improved greatly since last grouping
    • Gatekeeping begins to happen (e.g. "LFM <class> - Must be able to do at least 500 DPS")
    • Performing other vital tasks (kiting, CC, etc.) in fights gets discouraged because the focus is often too much on damage

    For me personally I like the pros, but I think the cons can inevitably create an undesirable game experience. I agree with Steven on this one.

    This post seems oddly skewed towards someone who dislikes damage meters! First of all, you didn't mention that you could in fact help players understand their class and damage better in the pros. You also didn't mention that it would help massively in raid encounters where there are mechanics unbeknownst to the common player.

    Secondly, your second and fourth cons seem very exaggerated. For the second con if someone had actually drastically improved their performance, then they would be able to link their meters and PROVE that they did, so most of the time they would be given a second chance. As someone who has been in social guilds and in top tier guilds, I've never seen someone get ostracized forever. I've seen people get kicked and then invited back the very next week when they have solved their issues. I've also given advice as a 99th percentile player of my class, and I've also received advice when I was a new player and was doing really poorly. So the second con I've never actually seen. Has it happened? Probably, but I'd say the more likely scenario is the guy sucked AND they were being super obnoxious/whiny/generally unlikable and that's why they were never given a second chance.

    Thirdly the 4th con is just ludicrous. If the raid leader can't see the value of someone who is using their utility to help the raid and focuses more on dps numbers (remember, trackers track more than just damage/healing, they can track a plethora of things including utility) then they are a bad raid leader and a bad guild that you SHOULD NOT WANT TO BE APART OF. Being kicked by someone like that is a goddamn blessing in my eyes.
  • SaraphitaSaraphita Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Linstead wrote: »
    This post seems oddly skewed towards someone who dislikes damage meters!
    I wouldn't say that I dislike them. I utilize them in every game that has them available.
    Linstead wrote: »
    First of all, you didn't mention that you could in fact help players understand their class and damage better in the pros. You also didn't mention that it would help massively in raid encounters where there are mechanics unbeknownst to the common player.
    I prefaced the list saying that it wasn't exhaustive
    Linstead wrote: »
    For the second con if someone had actually drastically improved their performance, then they would be able to link their meters and PROVE that they did, so most of the time they would be given a second chance.
    I think you're confusing an in-game damage meter with parses that take the entire combat log and export it to look at every detail of things that occurred. An in-game damage meter the only thing you would link would be 1 occurence whereas most parses you can link an entire history of performance to show consistency since you would have the data.
    Linstead wrote: »
    As someone who has been in social guilds and in top tier guilds, I've never seen someone get ostracized forever. I've seen people get kicked and then invited back the very next week when they have solved their issues. I've also given advice as a 99th percentile player of my class, and I've also received advice when I was a new player and was doing really poorly. So the second con I've never actually seen. Has it happened? Probably, but I'd say the more likely scenario is the guy sucked AND they were being super obnoxious/whiny/generally unlikable and that's why they were never given a second chance.
    To give context, I've raided in multiple top-world guilds. I've seen it happen in some cases and not others. Just because it's not your experience doesn't mean your experience is the norm and it also doesn't mean it doesn't occur with some degree of frequency.
    Linstead wrote: »
    Thirdly the 4th con is just ludicrous. If the raid leader can't see the value of someone who is using their utility to help the raid and focuses more on dps numbers (remember, trackers track more than just damage/healing, they can track a plethora of things including utility) then they are a bad raid leader and a bad guild that you SHOULD NOT WANT TO BE APART OF. Being kicked by someone like that is a goddamn blessing in my eyes.
    If that was how the raid leader was acting, then sure. But again, I think you're confusing in-game damage meters and parses and you are assuming the discussion is about parses in your response.


    What I do want is trial and error where people play the game, focus on what's happening in front of them rather than staring at numbers and analyzing parses, learn from their mistakes, formulate different strategies with observation and critical thinking, and work as a community to improve and overcome. This is why I really like the approach of there being no add-ons and no damage meters.

    What I don't want is one guy mathing everything out, posting a youtube video and then everyone just copy that and never think for themselves. Will this happen? Yeah probably at some point because meta-slaving is real, but I don't really want to promote it.

    If you have a different view than me, then that's fine and you can voice that. I'm not trying to convince anyone that I'm right. My feedback is directed at Intrepid because they wanted to know how the community felt. I'm part of the community and I fall into the camp of agreeing with Steven on this particular topic.
  • Conclusion: Not necessary at all.
  • ShroudedFoxShroudedFox Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    personally I don't get what the massive deal about dps meters is. I sit on the side of none simply because I think its better from an immersion point of view.

    I play these types of games to immerse myself in a fantasy world with friends and have a good time not get told about numbers and dps counts, it completely changes the mood of the game. Your all talking as if this is a make or break feature but I think players will be happy without them and have better time, early wow before dps meters were a thing functioned fine.

    It just seems more of an issue of people perceiving they need them because that's "just how things are done in MMOs" based on a rehashed idea that's been used to death.
  • EuphorrixEuphorrix Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Linstead

    I think you missed the point of my analogy, and also the "it's not important" part.

    This game has many different aspects of play, and combat is one of the many, different things you can be excited about, and public access to a DPS meter is not needed for this game. The community will help.
    Euphorrix wrote: »
    My closing thoughts:
    Public DPS Meter: Bad / Private DPS Meter: Good / No DPS Meter: Ok

  • AdemptioAdemptio Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    Just for the sake of it. I will throw in my 2 cents opinion.
    I love DPS meters cause I strive to be good at my role. But I would prefer NO DPS meter, I have several reason(s)for this.

    As ex guild/raid leader in WoW I was often whispered by raid members "Replace this hunter/replace the healer they s*ck". This often led to either the people being replaced being upset/angry or the people that know there is a guy that is underperforming and is not being replaced.
    When in a dungeon party with random players it is very easy to kick a certain player and find a replacement if they notice you underperform, which will bring toxicity no matter how you look at it.

    I tend to play with friends/family who are generally PvE/RPers and play MMO's just for fun and are very intimidated when they want to join WoW dungeons due to people asking for "Looking for 12k DPS to kill X boss"... This scares off players to even try and join content.


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  • Demonhunter1Demonhunter1 Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    Ademptio wrote: »
    Just for the sake of it. I will throw in my 2 cents opinion.
    I love DPS meters cause I strive to be good at my role. But I would prefer NO DPS meter, I have several reason(s)for this.

    I don't need a DPS meter per say to evaluate if im performing well or not. I know exactly how much damage or heals I can dish-out without a meter. Also, it's not only the numbers that count, it's your play-style and knowing your enemy and when to hit or defend that makes a good player.

    DPS meters are long term continuous damage or heals without ever stopping on a dummy unlike PVP where you might defend or attack, usually games have their own damage done and healing received information and usually that's enough to evaluate your performance.

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