If there is personal Loot like in WoW retail, it wouldn´t be a Problem like you mentioned by you. Just one possible Solution
I'm not a fan of this at all.
It takes the idea of a raid from going out and trying to get some better equipment for the raid, to one of going out and trying to get better equipment for yourself.
While this may seem small, it is a change from the raid being there for the raid, to the raid being there for the individual. It creates a shift in player thinking in regards to the raid.
Now, I can see an argument for this kind of loot system for pick up raids, but it is destructive to guilds.
I personally would rather a game like Ashes put guilds above pick up raids, even if a game like WoW doesn't.
I think you forget that the word "personal loot" also can have diffrent mechanics.
For example the Item you optain can be trated afterwards for 2 hours.
The Basic for Group loot and personal loot can be handelt exacty the same:
1. Items drops
2. group/raid rolls
3. a person gets the item
1. the systems rolls hidden who can loot the mob
2. you can give the item away if you want to
the difference is just that the group as one cant decide if a singel person wants to pass on an item at the start.
If there is a Problem with the decision about the item afterwards the Raid/Guild/Player has to find other People to play with.
I don't see how that would work out though. What's gonna happen if I say that player X sucks? He responds that he doesnt suck, or goes even one step further and says that I myself suck. You wont achieve anything by attacking others, because you cant prove that you are right about them. All you have as an argument is that someone is playing an off-meta class. With the wide variety of archetype-combinations I would assume that half your raid is probably playing a sub-optimal specc. Especially with the lack of meters that constantly show them how they're performing slightly worse than the perfect build.
You are assuming that we are talking about two people with the same personalities, who are both more than willing to stand up and shout at each other (in an online capacity).
That isn't how things go in these situations. Without data, people are free to blame who ever they want, and they generally pick people they assume won't fight back. This is why the timid, the meek and the shy generally have a hard time in online games - as they are easy targets for anyone that has no data.
A large portion of the community (including Steven) is apparently unhappy with the current situation. Why not give this a shot and see how it works out?
This is a stance I agree with.
Every MMO in history has had no combat tracker built in, and people have built one for all of them.
That is exatly what Ashes is doing.
If you want something different, the only option is to build one in with restrictions. Not having a combat tracker in Ashes is not an option, as they will be available before the game even goes live.
I mean, there is a saying about people expecting a different result from the same actions...
Personal loot if Ashes is straight up impossible to work
reason is that you need master crafters to get the loot in the first place and the drop of actual completed items is supposed to be quite small, because majority will come from the harvested materials etc
your assumption is that every loot is bound to the one who picks it up. Is it like that in the actual game?
If you want something different, the only option is to build one in with restrictions. Not having a combat tracker in Ashes is not an option, as they will be available before the game even goes live.
I mean, there is a saying about people expecting a different result from the same actions...
From what they said about this topic I understand that they won't be as much trying to break the functionality of such tools, but more likely just detect the use of them and banning people for it
The problem is, it isn't the data pointing fingers, it is people. If you have the type of person that would point a finger at a person, then they don't need hard data to do that. All they need is a reason.
I don't see how that would work out though. What's gonna happen if I say that player X sucks? He responds that he doesnt suck, or goes even one step further and says that I myself suck. You wont achieve anything by attacking others, because you cant prove that you are right about them. All you have as an argument is that someone is playing an off-meta class. With the wide variety of archetype-combinations I would assume that half your raid is probably playing a sub-optimal specc. Especially with the lack of meters that constantly show them how they're performing slightly worse than the perfect build.
I realize that I might have a naive view on the subject. I just dont think we should give up on this way of improving player behaviour before we even try. A large portion of the community (including Steven) is apparently unhappy with the current situation. Why not give this a shot and see how it works out?
I agree with you that the people have a harder time to shift the blame on specific players. They dont have hard facts and no one yet knows what support skills will be available and how strong they are to the group. You cant even tell wich Class brings the least to your current group constellation.
So you dont argue against personal dps Meters, right?
If you want something different, the only option is to build one in with restrictions. Not having a combat tracker in Ashes is not an option, as they will be available before the game even goes live.
I mean, there is a saying about people expecting a different result from the same actions...
From what they said about this topic I understand that they won't be as much trying to break the functionality of such tools, but more likely just detect the use of them and banning people for it
All that has been said so far is that they are attempting to prevent most means of gathering data. They have not said anything about account bans - although I would be foolish if I didn't plan on that being a possibility.
If that is what they want to do though, all I can say is - best of luck to them.
What if it only showed the one that did the most damage to everyone and then each player could see their own damage, that would let people feel acomplished by being the first in damage and would also help the players see if they're behind for a lot or not.
Yeah all we have is their stance on it - the length on how far do they want to enforce this vision is unknown
This is true, though it is worth noting that any fight Intrepid put in to it will cost them time and money, where as the people they would be fighting are doing it basically for fun.
These people are used to taking on much bigger, more organized organizations and coming out on top. They also have access to more tools here than they are used to having access to. One option they are looking at is using a specific version of a specific browser, that has specific issues that can be exploited to read memory in a completely undectable way. If there is anything kept clientside, they will be able to see it, and the only way Intrepid could stop it is to not allow one of the most popular browsers to be run at the same time as the game client.
Then there are the hardware based ideas they have - which could result in Intrepid needing to not allow the game to be played on several generations of Intel processors if they wanted to block it.
My expectation is that Intrepid will outsource this kind of thing to a third party - problem with that is, they may outsource it to a few of the people that are developing these tools.
If Ashes will be a game where the existence of DPS meters allow players to play better and at the same time the use of DPS meters is forbidden then it is by my opinion a design failure. The game should not produce a need in players that is forbidden by the rules.
For example what I mean is that it would be the same mistake to allow node sieges at any time, but banning the players for declaring them outside of the server prime time.
In other words if damage is going to matter, then dps meters will matter as well
If Ashes will be a game where the existence of DPS meters allow players to play better and at the same time the use of DPS meters is forbidden then it is by my opinion a design failure. The game should not produce a need in players that is forbidden by the rules.
For example what I mean is that it would be the same mistake to allow node sieges at any time, but banning the players for declaring them outside of the server prime time.
In other words if damage is going to matter, then dps meters will matter as well
Completely agreed - except expand it to everything a combat tracker can do.
If damage, healing, mitigation, blocking, dodging, CC'ing, buffing and/or debuffing matter, then combat trackers will matter as well.
This is a part of the reason there will be a combat tracker in every MMO. Players are not in a position to know if a combat tracker matters until we have one to tell us if it matters or not.
But yes, you are exactly right that if the design of the game leaves players wanting a combat tracker, not including it in the games client is a design mistake.
What if it only showed the one that did the most damage to everyone and then each player could see their own damage, that would let people feel acomplished by being the first in damage and would also help the players see if they're behind for a lot or not.
Every MMO in history has had no combat tracker built in, and people have built one for all of them.
From what i know, most MMOs dont actively hinder and punish the use of those addons though. That could be AoCs different approach and it could result in a different outcome.
So you dont argue against personal dps Meters, right?
Right. The point i was making in that post would allow personal meters to exist. However I am overall against any form of combat-tracking in AoC.
On a more general topic: I keep reading about "needing" a combat-tracker. These tools are never required for playing the game. They just make certain aspects of improvement easier. You could absolutely do any content in any MMO without these tools. It would just take more time and players would need to come up with different ways to assess performance.
On a more general topic: I keep reading about "needing" a combat-tracker. These tools are never required for playing the game. They just make certain aspects of improvement easier. You could absolutely do any content in any MMO without these tools. It would just take more time and players would need to come up with different ways to assess performance.
The "needing" is not used in exclusivity sense, but more like "do you want to use medieval tools or to pickup modern machinery?"
I just assume that anyone who is against meters are terrible players that dont want to be found out. And usually when i read their post, they seem to have no clue how to use them or what they actually track.
AOC is already on record saying that DPS will determine a lot: looting rights and share of XP, at least. We don't yet know whether any content will have dps checks (which are often put in to prevent people from stacking healers to trivialize content), but I would be very surprised if they didn't.
I don't necessarily love the idea of making dps a key determinant, then allowing players no mechanism to understand why they individually or collectively failed on a goal. I genuinely get the downside, but as someone who played a lot more EQ2 than WoW, I have seen firsthand how dps meters can exist and not be toxic.
Every MMO in history has had no combat tracker built in, and people have built one for all of them.
From what i know, most MMOs dont actively hinder and punish the use of those addons though. That could be AoCs different approach and it could result in a different outcome.
What if it only showed the one that did the most damage to everyone and then each player could see their own damage, that would let people feel acomplished by being the first in damage and would also help the players see if they're behind for a lot or not.
The point of a combat tracker to a raid is not to compare DPS. Guilds that consider this the main function of a combat tracker are using it incorrectly.
0
FuryBladeborneMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Every MMO in history has had no combat tracker built in, and people have built one for all of them.
From what i know, most MMOs dont actively hinder and punish the use of those addons though. That could be AoCs different approach and it could result in a different outcome.
GW2 attempted this position.
It didn't work.
GW2 refused to allow damage meters until raids were released. Once players needed to do enough dps to beat a timer, meters became necessary to complete raids.
0
NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's like you wanted to prove and validate everyones concerns about the toxicity of dps meters players who treat it as the be all end all of their games.
Compromise would be the most logical option here
1. Dps Dummy targets
2. Player consented meter sharing.
I mean anything besides posting insults at everyone who says something different.
Steven is probably looking at how rabid and ill mannered a lot of you are pushing for dps meters here. He reads these forums, and he definitely reads this topics conversation.
You have validated his concerns with these meters and it would not surpise me in the least if he just screen shots your posts and puts them up as evidence every time hes asked "why dont you want dps meters in the game"
I would like target dummies as a decent compromise but hell he's not likely to even include those now looking at how you act.
The compromise is meters are allowed, you dont use them. It's not shocking that you are here still trying to force others into outdated gaming concepts though.
That has nothing to do with what I said
Your putting words in my mouth, I've said this over a dozen times already. I dont CARE if meters are available. So long as it requires an aknowledgement that wether within a guilds tool or with a personal tracker notification to the player that someone wants to track what I'm doing within a dungeon or raid. That way I or anyone else can politely leave knowing what you're trying to access.
I'm not against them being in the game in some form but I'm glad steven doesnt want them either. I'm just not going to be a stubborn mule about the point and say its all or nothing like you are.
Just because you want to do whatever you want with other peoples game information doesnt mean you get to. Sorry to inform you of this reality.
There are people asking for a DPS meter and People asking for a whole addon that shows them everything from dispelling to healing, agro and etc.
Regarding the DPS meter, a lot of people don't even know how to use it. That is when you get your 99% Jerks ratio. They focus purely on DPS and nothing else. It does show that they have no skill many times but that is another discussion.
A lot of players want a DPS meter to feel secure especially when playing with pugs. Because they have a number to hide behind. Often they are so distracted and focused on their meter that they do not focus on the actual fight, what is happening and etc.
People that claim that a Dps meter is a MUST do not know what they are talking about. It is perfectly viable to optimize your char/build on your own. The only thing people do not want to do anymore these days is invest time. Somehow a lot of players want a short cut and a DPS meter is exactly that. I personally do not want a DPS meter because I want to see people actively trying crazy builds again to see a lot of class diversity and to keep it fair for everyone. A meter on the long run puts a barrier between new and veteran players in an MMO were without one you will automatically have more of an open, welcoming and supportive community.
If people need a tool to tell them when to dispel, or when to taunt, etc. I personally find it sad. Dispelling is a team activity, you communicate with each other. Holding or switching Agro with another tank or player is based on "trail and error" --> gaining knowledge on the encounter, keeping your eyes open and again communication. Healing meters ... really??? it is pretty obvious when the healing is lacking or if something is impacting the healer's efforts (debuffs, dots, etc.)
The point is, a lot of people in the MMO community do not know how to communicate anymore, how to collaborate, how to be a team and that is very sad, especially when it is being replaced by a tool.
To improve yourself and your team/guild ... all you need is a pair of eyes, bit of logic, and open communication within your guild.
GW2 refused to allow damage meters until raids were released. Once players needed to do enough dps to beat a timer, meters became necessary to complete raids.
I was always on the fence whether or not an MMO should allow a DPS meter because it was a valuable tool for understanding your class and rotations, but it causes terrible toxicity in the community. After playing GW2 for years, I can say without any hesitation that same toxicity will always exists and is actually worse without the meter because then it becomes propaganda and guesswork by players. The only thing worse then your class underperforming and being banned from content, is your class actually being great and people thinking it sucks and should be banned from content.
It was amazing the amount of misinformation on strengths of classes and how that was used to alienate players. All proved incorrect when test dummies came in and players could start to see the real numbers.
Every MMO in history has had no combat tracker built in, and people have built one for all of them.
From what i know, most MMOs dont actively hinder and punish the use of those addons though. That could be AoCs different approach and it could result in a different outcome.
GW2 attempted this position.
It didn't work.
GW2 refused to allow damage meters until raids were released. Once players needed to do enough dps to beat a timer, meters became necessary to complete raids.
They refused to allow them, but they existed anyway.
I played GW2 from release for a few months, I had a combat tracker going in that short time.
GW2 refused to allow damage meters until raids were released. Once players needed to do enough dps to beat a timer, meters became necessary to complete raids.
I was always on the fence whether or not an MMO should allow a DPS meter because it was a valuable tool for understanding your class and rotations, but it causes terrible toxicity in the community. After playing GW2 for years, I can say without any hesitation that same toxicity will always exists and is actually worse without the meter because then it becomes propaganda and guesswork by players. The only thing worse then your class underperforming and being banned from content, is your class actually being great and people thinking it sucks and should be banned from content.
It was amazing the amount of misinformation on strengths of classes and how that was used to alienate players. All proved incorrect when test dummies came in and players could start to see the real numbers.
This is the main fact I want to hit home for Steven.
The only reason given for not having a combat tracker in Ashes is to reduce toxicity, but having very limited use of them (there will always be someone with one) doesn't actually reduce it - as people don't need objective data in order to be toxic.
The reason given is either completely blind to all known facts and the history of MMO's in general, or is a cover for some other (likely purely emotional) reason.
The one thing that is for sure is that the current stance on combat trackers has in no way been made from a logical perspective - and this lack of logical, critical thinking should have every potential player of Ashes worried, whether they personally want to use a combat tracker or not.
Every MMO in history has had no combat tracker built in, and people have built one for all of them.
From what i know, most MMOs dont actively hinder and punish the use of those addons though. That could be AoCs different approach and it could result in a different outcome.
GW2 attempted this position.
It didn't work.
GW2 refused to allow damage meters until raids were released. Once players needed to do enough dps to beat a timer, meters became necessary to complete raids.
They refused to allow them, but they existed anyway.
I played GW2 from release for a few months, I had a combat tracker going in that short time.
Gw2 Raids were added years after launch, people used the introduction of raids to force ArenaNet to allow a meter. Bad move on Anets side ... the claim that they were necessary to complete raids is just funny. Plenty of guilds and even random group of players completed raids without a meter.
Gw2 is one of the worst examples you can give to justify a meter in the first place, it is, in my opinion, one of the easiest games to figure out your build if you invest a little bit of time. Limited gear sets, the majority of runes are useless, etc.
Allowing them into Gw2 had 2 effects, a lot of veteran players just didn't care for it as they already knew how to optimize their builds even after balancing patches or expansions. But for new players, it indirectly put up a barrier. In content such as fractals even, which was already affected due to poor balancing. New players got even less opportunity, they often got kicked faster, etc. a new player had to work 3 times harder sometimes to be able to get in.
Gw2 already had an issue with the achievement point being used to kick people, with a meter they added a second.
Gw2 Raids were added years after launch, people used the introduction of raids to force ArenaNet to allow a meter.
You seem to be slightly mis-remembering.
ArenaNet had to allow combat trackers because people were using them anyway. As I said, I was using one within the first few months of the games launch. It was against the rules - but if you've read this thread you will know that is not a thing that bothers me too much.
Sure, they made the 'excuse' of players needing them for raiding to justify it to some players, but the fact is they realized that they were always going to lose against people wanting combat trackers, and so gave up the fight.
You also seem to have a diametrically opposed opinion to a number of other people as to the effect combat trackers had in GW2 once they were allowed to be used freely.
Only a few posts above yours is another poster that is saying that there was more toxicity in the game with trackers - which seems to mesh with what I saw in the game in the short time I was there. I saw a lot of exclusion based purely on class, which made no real sense based on what I had seen those classes do using the combat tracker that I was running.
Part of the reason GW2 is indeed a good example of why Ashes should have a built in combat tracker is because you are indeed right that the games combat system was simplistic (to the point of being boring), yet people still found a desire to have a combat tracker - to the point where so many people were using them that ArenaNet had to give in and allow it.
In a game where a combat tracker may actually be significantly more useful, it would be foolish to think anything else would happen.
There are people asking for a DPS meter and People asking for a whole addon that shows them everything from dispelling to healing, agro and etc.
Regarding the DPS meter, a lot of people don't even know how to use it. That is when you get your 99% Jerks ratio. They focus purely on DPS and nothing else. It does show that they have no skill many times but that is another discussion.
A lot of players want a DPS meter to feel secure especially when playing with pugs. Because they have a number to hide behind. Often they are so distracted and focused on their meter that they do not focus on the actual fight, what is happening and etc.
People that claim that a Dps meter is a MUST do not know what they are talking about. It is perfectly viable to optimize your char/build on your own. The only thing people do not want to do anymore these days is invest time. Somehow a lot of players want a short cut and a DPS meter is exactly that. I personally do not want a DPS meter because I want to see people actively trying crazy builds again to see a lot of class diversity and to keep it fair for everyone. A meter on the long run puts a barrier between new and veteran players in an MMO were without one you will automatically have more of an open, welcoming and supportive community.
If people need a tool to tell them when to dispel, or when to taunt, etc. I personally find it sad. Dispelling is a team activity, you communicate with each other. Holding or switching Agro with another tank or player is based on "trail and error" --> gaining knowledge on the encounter, keeping your eyes open and again communication. Healing meters ... really??? it is pretty obvious when the healing is lacking or if something is impacting the healer's efforts (debuffs, dots, etc.)
The point is, a lot of people in the MMO community do not know how to communicate anymore, how to collaborate, how to be a team and that is very sad, especially when it is being replaced by a tool.
To improve yourself and your team/guild ... all you need is a pair of eyes, bit of logic, and open communication within your guild.
Dude clearly, you have no idea what meters are and what they are best used for - what you are describing are addon trackers to enhance visibility of partially hidden things in order to provide players an easy way through the encounter - nobody here is advocating for such a thing.
Meters track what happened in a fight for the players so they might figure out where and what were the mistakes they did or even to check the theory behind their build is solid in real environment. Toxic nonfactual exclusion of totally useful classes exists regardless if the game has meters (most focus on just dps meter). This badmouthing of some classes will definitely exist and ironically dps meter is the only hope for good players playing those classes to silence those that just repeat what others said - otherwise without meters they will have to play only with a guild that accepts them, because random groups are mostly going to reject them.
Weak classes will get excluded anyways. They wont be given the chance to prove that they're the 1 out of 10 players that actually performs well on that subpar specc. Damage-meters dont help at all with the problem of community perception towards certain classes.
Something else I'm curious about in relation to the argument that dps-meters cant be stopped anyways. Are you guys in favor of all addons in general? Because someone will create a boss-mod, an auction-house addon and some ability trackers. Do we have to implement them in the game as well?
Comments
I think you forget that the word "personal loot" also can have diffrent mechanics.
For example the Item you optain can be trated afterwards for 2 hours.
The Basic for Group loot and personal loot can be handelt exacty the same:
1. Items drops
2. group/raid rolls
3. a person gets the item
1. the systems rolls hidden who can loot the mob
2. you can give the item away if you want to
the difference is just that the group as one cant decide if a singel person wants to pass on an item at the start.
If there is a Problem with the decision about the item afterwards the Raid/Guild/Player has to find other People to play with.
That isn't how things go in these situations. Without data, people are free to blame who ever they want, and they generally pick people they assume won't fight back. This is why the timid, the meek and the shy generally have a hard time in online games - as they are easy targets for anyone that has no data. This is a stance I agree with.
Every MMO in history has had no combat tracker built in, and people have built one for all of them.
That is exatly what Ashes is doing.
If you want something different, the only option is to build one in with restrictions. Not having a combat tracker in Ashes is not an option, as they will be available before the game even goes live.
I mean, there is a saying about people expecting a different result from the same actions...
your assumption is that every loot is bound to the one who picks it up. Is it like that in the actual game?
From what they said about this topic I understand that they won't be as much trying to break the functionality of such tools, but more likely just detect the use of them and banning people for it
― Plato
I agree with you that the people have a harder time to shift the blame on specific players. They dont have hard facts and no one yet knows what support skills will be available and how strong they are to the group. You cant even tell wich Class brings the least to your current group constellation.
So you dont argue against personal dps Meters, right?
If that is what they want to do though, all I can say is - best of luck to them.
― Plato
There are better systems for pick ups, and there are better systems for guild raids. To me, this kind of system has no merit.
This is true, though it is worth noting that any fight Intrepid put in to it will cost them time and money, where as the people they would be fighting are doing it basically for fun.
These people are used to taking on much bigger, more organized organizations and coming out on top. They also have access to more tools here than they are used to having access to. One option they are looking at is using a specific version of a specific browser, that has specific issues that can be exploited to read memory in a completely undectable way. If there is anything kept clientside, they will be able to see it, and the only way Intrepid could stop it is to not allow one of the most popular browsers to be run at the same time as the game client.
Then there are the hardware based ideas they have - which could result in Intrepid needing to not allow the game to be played on several generations of Intel processors if they wanted to block it.
My expectation is that Intrepid will outsource this kind of thing to a third party - problem with that is, they may outsource it to a few of the people that are developing these tools.
If Ashes will be a game where the existence of DPS meters allow players to play better and at the same time the use of DPS meters is forbidden then it is by my opinion a design failure. The game should not produce a need in players that is forbidden by the rules.
For example what I mean is that it would be the same mistake to allow node sieges at any time, but banning the players for declaring them outside of the server prime time.
In other words if damage is going to matter, then dps meters will matter as well
― Plato
Completely agreed - except expand it to everything a combat tracker can do.
If damage, healing, mitigation, blocking, dodging, CC'ing, buffing and/or debuffing matter, then combat trackers will matter as well.
This is a part of the reason there will be a combat tracker in every MMO. Players are not in a position to know if a combat tracker matters until we have one to tell us if it matters or not.
But yes, you are exactly right that if the design of the game leaves players wanting a combat tracker, not including it in the games client is a design mistake.
What do you think about this? @noaani
From what i know, most MMOs dont actively hinder and punish the use of those addons though. That could be AoCs different approach and it could result in a different outcome.
Right. The point i was making in that post would allow personal meters to exist. However I am overall against any form of combat-tracking in AoC.
On a more general topic: I keep reading about "needing" a combat-tracker. These tools are never required for playing the game. They just make certain aspects of improvement easier. You could absolutely do any content in any MMO without these tools. It would just take more time and players would need to come up with different ways to assess performance.
The "needing" is not used in exclusivity sense, but more like "do you want to use medieval tools or to pickup modern machinery?"
― Plato
I don't necessarily love the idea of making dps a key determinant, then allowing players no mechanism to understand why they individually or collectively failed on a goal. I genuinely get the downside, but as someone who played a lot more EQ2 than WoW, I have seen firsthand how dps meters can exist and not be toxic.
It didn't work.
The point of a combat tracker to a raid is not to compare DPS. Guilds that consider this the main function of a combat tracker are using it incorrectly.
GW2 refused to allow damage meters until raids were released. Once players needed to do enough dps to beat a timer, meters became necessary to complete raids.
How many times do I have to say I dont care if meters are accessible in the game. I care in HOW and WHO accesses it without consent.
Its not a difficult concept.
That has nothing to do with what I said
Your putting words in my mouth, I've said this over a dozen times already. I dont CARE if meters are available. So long as it requires an aknowledgement that wether within a guilds tool or with a personal tracker notification to the player that someone wants to track what I'm doing within a dungeon or raid. That way I or anyone else can politely leave knowing what you're trying to access.
I'm not against them being in the game in some form but I'm glad steven doesnt want them either. I'm just not going to be a stubborn mule about the point and say its all or nothing like you are.
Just because you want to do whatever you want with other peoples game information doesnt mean you get to. Sorry to inform you of this reality.
Regarding the DPS meter, a lot of people don't even know how to use it. That is when you get your 99% Jerks ratio. They focus purely on DPS and nothing else. It does show that they have no skill many times but that is another discussion.
A lot of players want a DPS meter to feel secure especially when playing with pugs. Because they have a number to hide behind. Often they are so distracted and focused on their meter that they do not focus on the actual fight, what is happening and etc.
People that claim that a Dps meter is a MUST do not know what they are talking about. It is perfectly viable to optimize your char/build on your own. The only thing people do not want to do anymore these days is invest time. Somehow a lot of players want a short cut and a DPS meter is exactly that. I personally do not want a DPS meter because I want to see people actively trying crazy builds again to see a lot of class diversity and to keep it fair for everyone. A meter on the long run puts a barrier between new and veteran players in an MMO were without one you will automatically have more of an open, welcoming and supportive community.
If people need a tool to tell them when to dispel, or when to taunt, etc. I personally find it sad. Dispelling is a team activity, you communicate with each other. Holding or switching Agro with another tank or player is based on "trail and error" --> gaining knowledge on the encounter, keeping your eyes open and again communication. Healing meters ... really??? it is pretty obvious when the healing is lacking or if something is impacting the healer's efforts (debuffs, dots, etc.)
The point is, a lot of people in the MMO community do not know how to communicate anymore, how to collaborate, how to be a team and that is very sad, especially when it is being replaced by a tool.
To improve yourself and your team/guild ... all you need is a pair of eyes, bit of logic, and open communication within your guild.
I was always on the fence whether or not an MMO should allow a DPS meter because it was a valuable tool for understanding your class and rotations, but it causes terrible toxicity in the community. After playing GW2 for years, I can say without any hesitation that same toxicity will always exists and is actually worse without the meter because then it becomes propaganda and guesswork by players. The only thing worse then your class underperforming and being banned from content, is your class actually being great and people thinking it sucks and should be banned from content.
It was amazing the amount of misinformation on strengths of classes and how that was used to alienate players. All proved incorrect when test dummies came in and players could start to see the real numbers.
They refused to allow them, but they existed anyway.
I played GW2 from release for a few months, I had a combat tracker going in that short time.
The only reason given for not having a combat tracker in Ashes is to reduce toxicity, but having very limited use of them (there will always be someone with one) doesn't actually reduce it - as people don't need objective data in order to be toxic.
The reason given is either completely blind to all known facts and the history of MMO's in general, or is a cover for some other (likely purely emotional) reason.
The one thing that is for sure is that the current stance on combat trackers has in no way been made from a logical perspective - and this lack of logical, critical thinking should have every potential player of Ashes worried, whether they personally want to use a combat tracker or not.
Gw2 Raids were added years after launch, people used the introduction of raids to force ArenaNet to allow a meter. Bad move on Anets side ... the claim that they were necessary to complete raids is just funny. Plenty of guilds and even random group of players completed raids without a meter.
Gw2 is one of the worst examples you can give to justify a meter in the first place, it is, in my opinion, one of the easiest games to figure out your build if you invest a little bit of time. Limited gear sets, the majority of runes are useless, etc.
Allowing them into Gw2 had 2 effects, a lot of veteran players just didn't care for it as they already knew how to optimize their builds even after balancing patches or expansions. But for new players, it indirectly put up a barrier. In content such as fractals even, which was already affected due to poor balancing. New players got even less opportunity, they often got kicked faster, etc. a new player had to work 3 times harder sometimes to be able to get in.
Gw2 already had an issue with the achievement point being used to kick people, with a meter they added a second.
ArenaNet had to allow combat trackers because people were using them anyway. As I said, I was using one within the first few months of the games launch. It was against the rules - but if you've read this thread you will know that is not a thing that bothers me too much.
Sure, they made the 'excuse' of players needing them for raiding to justify it to some players, but the fact is they realized that they were always going to lose against people wanting combat trackers, and so gave up the fight.
You also seem to have a diametrically opposed opinion to a number of other people as to the effect combat trackers had in GW2 once they were allowed to be used freely.
Only a few posts above yours is another poster that is saying that there was more toxicity in the game with trackers - which seems to mesh with what I saw in the game in the short time I was there. I saw a lot of exclusion based purely on class, which made no real sense based on what I had seen those classes do using the combat tracker that I was running.
Part of the reason GW2 is indeed a good example of why Ashes should have a built in combat tracker is because you are indeed right that the games combat system was simplistic (to the point of being boring), yet people still found a desire to have a combat tracker - to the point where so many people were using them that ArenaNet had to give in and allow it.
In a game where a combat tracker may actually be significantly more useful, it would be foolish to think anything else would happen.
Dude clearly, you have no idea what meters are and what they are best used for - what you are describing are addon trackers to enhance visibility of partially hidden things in order to provide players an easy way through the encounter - nobody here is advocating for such a thing.
Meters track what happened in a fight for the players so they might figure out where and what were the mistakes they did or even to check the theory behind their build is solid in real environment. Toxic nonfactual exclusion of totally useful classes exists regardless if the game has meters (most focus on just dps meter). This badmouthing of some classes will definitely exist and ironically dps meter is the only hope for good players playing those classes to silence those that just repeat what others said - otherwise without meters they will have to play only with a guild that accepts them, because random groups are mostly going to reject them.
― Plato
Something else I'm curious about in relation to the argument that dps-meters cant be stopped anyways. Are you guys in favor of all addons in general? Because someone will create a boss-mod, an auction-house addon and some ability trackers. Do we have to implement them in the game as well?