Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
it does if you know how to read one.
At least this way it would be possible to test better builds
Indeed.
I'm unsure how people that don't know how to use a combat tracker can have an actual opinion on them that is deeply held enough to debate it.
I understand such people saying something along the lines of "I generally like/dislike the idea of combat trackers, but as I don't really understand them, I don't feel I have any more to add other than that specific opinion", but anything more than that seems to me to be odd for something they have no real understanding of.
Not only can a combat tracker be used to see if there is a bug with the damage an ability is doing to a mob, but that same combat tracker can be used to determine exactly what resists/stats in general the mob in question has. This takes some real time to work out stats that have a complex relationship to each other - and is only necessary if you are actually trying to find a specific bug - but it absolutely is possible to do.
Seeing numbers from others help me see if there is an issue in my gameplay and how i could fix this, in game, from expérience.
If you are healer and have to choose between 2 very different dps, this can make a wipe or a win.
This is the most essential addon.
Look at the download numbers.
Others with boss mods, or advanced resources on Map are like cheating.
Anything that is giving you information on something that hasn't already happened is not good for teh game.
A combat tracker only breaks down information on things that have already happened.
If u are inside party u can join to "dps mater" or dont. If u join solo then simply showing only urs stats/ if 2 friends join and you then dps meter show only urs 3 dps/other stats.
The introduction to ego metres = Arguments
There's probably alot of players out there who have never played a MMO before and after the DPS meters
Very little
You sound like you want ban air travel, because terrorists did 9/11. If you want to stop ego maniacs, then the meters should be built in the game with restrictions. If it is not then it will be available to those ego maniacs that thrust their dps placement in your faces with a simple "download" button.
I understand that this could be common in lower tier guilds and pickup raids, but that should be a call for regulation not prosecution.
And if you honestly think that the absence of meters will stop Arguments, then you are gravely mistaken. Arguments happen when you can't kill the boss and without meters it often changes to pointing fingers and that kills many loosely formed guilds.
― Plato
I never really understood this thinking.
If things are dying, there aren't any issues.
If things are not dying, and no one has a combat tracker, do these people think everyone will just shrug and say "well, no idea what's going on, let's all go for milkshakes!".
Sadly, this seems to be Stevens opinion on the matter too, which has me somewhat concerned about the game in general.
DPS meters accelerate our ability to optimize - and that kills fun and imagination.
+1
Dont understand people, who want to know everything in advance, before even trying to play. It's basically watching movie ending, then watching the movie, or not watching the movie, because you didn't like the ending...
I completely disagree. Meters allow optimization, without it you have guesswork. Spreadsheeting precisely is possible without meters, but you still do the act of "measuring" again. This just slows down the evolution of meta and makes tailoring builds toward the node you are in just more tiresome action that is usually delegated to few (or even one) person in a guild.
Movie analogy doesn't really work, because it is passive entertainment and not an active one, but still I understand what you mean. However I do not consider "creating build" as mmo ending, it is - or should be everchanging evolution and after all it is the lense that you view the game through. You should not try to forbid players from cleaning and perfecting their lenses, because by proxy if you diminish the accessible knowledge that players use to make informed choices you diminish their enjoyment from the game. Those who do not care about their performance are not affected in any way.
If you want to draw the toxicity card then you are just showing naivety in this topic, because toxic people are going to use any other means to be toxic and removing tools, because they can be used in toxic way is terrible way to design the game - just look at prime example - WoW - they tried very hard to diminish toxic interactions that led to erasing player to player interactions.
― Plato
What you typing about ?
Very little
I'm talking about the topic where you blame tools for being used in toxic way (your quote "ego metres") so they should not be present. It is totally illogical to be against something, because someone else is misusing it to hurt others.
We know that words have tremendous power and we know that words can hurt in a way that no torture can. And still we value free speech above all else (at least in free society).
All I am writing here is that if we want to look at this toxic use, then we should create restriction on using the meters instead of banning it. All of my argument is about that (that part that you omitted in your quote of my post).
Arguments always start in frustration. The frustration can be from watching a really bad player being carried by everyone, but if everything is dying either way then nobody really cares. However when the only thing dying is only your raid then the frustration rises and arguments begin. Without meters you just encourage this frustration to be expressed in blind finger pointing, nothing else
― Plato
well i think everyone cares about their performance, i just dont think that a number should determine their performance. I think experimenting on builds and seeing how they work in different scenarios is part of the game, not experimenting and seeing how numbers change.
Dont really understand your take on toxicity, seems like you disagree, then agree... you will have toxicity when players interact, especially when they influence each others game experience. just like you have it in real world.
well i think everyone cares about their performance, i just dont think that a number should determine their performance. I think experimenting on builds and seeing how they work in different scenarios is part of the game, not experimenting and seeing how numbers change.
Dont really understand your take on toxicity, seems like you disagree, then agree... you will have toxicity when players interact, especially when they influence each others game experience. just like you have it in real world.
Numbers always determine their performance, with meters you can just read the number. This is cruel reality of how the world works - even the one that will be simulated in Ashes. Different builds will give various amount of success for the thing you want to do. Not having meters is actually actively discouraging from experimenting, because you are not sure if your new build is actually slightly better than the last one and so you will be a lot hesitant to use build that is not in the public meta.
If you don't play the meta build then average guilds that will try to achieve something will tell you to respec or to look for another guild. And the top end will just use unofficial meters to make sure they are doing the best that they can.
I don't understand what you don't understand on it. Removing meters does not remove any toxicity, because toxicity is not dependent on meters. You can use meters to have arguments about facts and you can use facts to promote your toxicity, but facts are not inherently toxic. Only snowflakes are trying to protect themselves from criticism when they are expected by their group to do their best.
― Plato
I never said that removing dps meters would remove toxicity. Toxicity will always be there with open world pvp, where's non consensual pvp.
I agree on the snowflake thing.
The reason i dont want dps meters, because it makes game easier. Easier, for people who cant think to improve their character, instead of trying new builds in different scenarios and fine tuning them, they would rely on numbers. Too easy...
People who cant think to improve their character will have without meters even less incentive to do something new. They will either copy meta build or use any build they felt like clicking the first time they opened their customization tab.
It all depends if things are going to be hard to kill in group/raid environment. If things are going to die either way then most people will not care if they can kill it faster which completely kills any inovation and you will see the same builds from beta to the 5th year anniversary.
― Plato
Yes, you're right. Most people are lazy or just not smart enough (not saying I am neither of these), they won't spend time trying to innovate, try better build etc etc. yes, it will be even harder without dps meters. And thats my exact point, if you cant be bothered to think and use any random build of google, that's your problem and you shouldn't have as good build as someone who invested time experimenting, so most people will have inferior builds and that's ok. With Youtube and google, you don't need to lower the bar even more...
What you don’t seem to be getting here, is that removing a player’s access to straightforward combat feedback makes developing builds damn near impossible to do with any significant efficiency. It actively discourages experimentation when all of it becomes guesswork that takes ten times as long as parsing through a combat tracker’s info.
By denying players access to objective information that would let them experiment rapidly and actually have a chance to get quick feedback about the direction their build idea is going, then you haven’t made it more “difficult”, just more frustrating, more time consuming, and less precise. It hurts literally everyone when the meta cannot be quickly and easily challenged via objective, precise information that a combat tracker provides.
DPS meters and gears score will ruin your game in the long term.
And without a combat tracker you will still have exactly this same sort of player. The presence of a combat tracker has literally no impact on someone being a good or bad team player.
My point was, though I admit it was poorly made, that DPS meters don't guarantee a better quality of play, in which case, the downsides of meters, in my opinion, vastly outweigh the benefits.
Except they DO guarantee a better quality of play overall, obviously not every person directly benefits from power saws being available, but the general populace absolutely does benefit from people using power saws.
At the absolute least, combat trackers provide players a tool to quickly iterate on experimental builds, which means a very fluid, flexible PvE and PvP meta. I think we can all agree we don’t want to be stuck with two or three builds for years, and a game withholding basic combat tracking from players is a sure fire way to ensure the majority of players are always discouraged from experimenting with their build.
They provide raiders a simpler readable format for their combat encounters that lets them gather their info faster and let them get to actually taking on the content. Combat trackers don’t remove challenge, in the same way that knowing the exact ideal forces and angles that are most effective in tennis doesn’t mean you’ll be national pro when you pick up the racket.
How about doing it old fashioned way? Changing skills and trying them out on the mob or on other people? Whats so hard? I get it that it makes it a lot easier when you get feedback straight away after changing things around. Also revealing everyones performance to everyone else is stupid idea in open world pvp game. People who know that ur score is lower will bully you out of every spot you try to grind or quest. If it had to be done, the best thing they could do one where only yourself could see the score. But nothing in my opinion is still better.
#MGHA Make games hard again!
You aren’t advocating for difficulty, you’re advocating for frustration, obfuscation, and a stagnant meta.
If you join group content, you have an obligation to your group to do what’s best for the group. Combat trackers are the BEST tool for proving that raw gear scores aren’t everything, that your theory-crafted setup is just as viable in the content as a popular build.
And meta is not just abilities, it is gear, it’s enchantments, it’s potions and buffs and stats. It’s not easy nor cheap to change those things around, and when it is prohibitively difficult to test those changes in the raid setting you want to use them for, why would anyone ever try to optimize or experiment for a raid that might only be around for a month at a time?
Builds are not just “one size fits all content”, they have to be adapted based on the raid, based on if you have certain buffs available, based on if you have more melee dps than ranged, or if your raid prefer to heal through what it can or have everyone move out. It’s not possible to isolate all those factors in real-time, which is why combat trackers are such a valuable and necessary tool if the game is to have a fluid meta or competitive PvE.
Literally all a combat tracker will do for you is give you an easier to understand (and thus faster to understand) readout of what those skills that you are trying out actually do.
You are advocating that people should go out and try new things - and I totally agree.
The thing is, you are arguing that people should go out and try new things and the game should attempt to obfuscate the information that people are trying to get hold of, while I (and others) are saying the game should make it easier for people to get that information when they go out and actively try to get it.