My point being, your texts are too long, if you can't make your point in couple of sentences, its ur problem.
Don't join in on a 2.1k post thread if you aren't willing to read.
I will, and will read peoples posts that can make their point in fewer words, and will weigh in on the discussion. And people who talk the most usually don't have much to say, so im not bothered
there is 1 slight misunderstanding, meters are not a drug that might kill you, but it just information of what happened - that is more like news media
Omg...stuff just goes over your head doesnt it...read to what i was responding to, with this analogy, maybe u will understand then
He was pointing out the same flaw in your analogy that I was - analogies need to have at least some resemblence to what is being talked about.
If you want to talk crime in regards to analogies with combat trackers, there is only one applicable that I can think of - insider trading.
Combat trackers provide people with information that they may be able to use to their advantage, which is what insider trading is, essentially.
Yes, there are laws against it, but there are also checks in place. The law doesn't prevent people from having the information in question, it just places limits on what they can do with that informaiton.
The proposal in this thread actually goes further than the laws on insider trading, as it not only limits what players can do with the information a combat tracker gives them, it also limits the information that can be obtained.
The fact that you don't know how analogies work shouldn't come as a surprise, I mean, it's just like how Volkswagon cheated the emmissions testing.
there is 1 slight misunderstanding, meters are not a drug that might kill you, but it just information of what happened - that is more like news media
Omg...stuff just goes over your head doesnt it...read to what i was responding to, with this analogy, maybe u will understand then
Yes I read it, your analogy clearly was promoting that using meters is such a severe action that it is comparable to illegal drug usage. Your entire point was about communicating that meters are bad
there is 1 slight misunderstanding, meters are not a drug that might kill you, but it just information of what happened - that is more like news media
Omg...stuff just goes over your head doesnt it...read to what i was responding to, with this analogy, maybe u will understand then
Yes I read it, your analogy clearly was promoting that using meters is such a severe action that it is comparable to illegal drug usage. Your entire point was about communicating that meters are bad
@Tragnar he's making that comparison because DPS meters will be illegal 3rd party addons, which will be a bannable offense.
I believe DPS meters are unhealthy for the game because people will rely too much on that and instead of using the class they think is more fun they will be pressured into choosing the class with the highest DPS because party raids will not accept people who don't live to their "DPS standards"
@maouw I kinda agree that it is likely to eventually become bannable offense. However the only thing said about DPS meters so far is that they will not be possible to create for the game
@maouw I kinda agree that it is likely to eventually become bannable offense. However the only thing said about DPS meters so far is that they will not be possible to create for the game
Sure, I'm just trying to explain that one person said, "DPS meters will exist anyways" <--- as 3rd party addons.
And the other person is saying "but murderering isn't ok" <--- 3rd party addons aren't planned for AoC
But yes, it's not adding anything to the discussion.
there is 1 slight misunderstanding, meters are not a drug that might kill you, but it just information of what happened - that is more like news media
Omg...stuff just goes over your head doesnt it...read to what i was responding to, with this analogy, maybe u will understand then
Yes I read it, your analogy clearly was promoting that using meters is such a severe action that it is comparable to illegal drug usage. Your entire point was about communicating that meters are bad
My point was was if aoc doesnt allow meter and as your buddy said theres still gona be 3rd party meters anyway, doesnt mean that aoc should just allow them. Get the analogy now?
There were some talk about a testing area so that being the case.
Was thinking to have option like....
Target dummy that attacks and have choice of atack magical physical if it applies
Option to turn buffs on and off to see how they affect damage. Like lets say buff you usually get from priest.
Same thing with armour and debuffs and defensive abilities on the target dummy.
Option to make all cds one second that way you do not have to wait three to five minutes to test ability out.
And really good informative tool tips for abilities showing damage of ability and how it is calculated.
Aslo lets say there is a item that gives you 10 percent more hit points if item showed how many actual extra hit points you get. Sometimes it just affects base hit points and not say hit points you get from gems.
In summary if player had a clear understanding of how the game mechanics works to determine dps of heals or mitigating damage then that would be in my opinion just as good as dps meter.
Think this would be pretty good thing to have since there is a no dps meters policy.
I kinda agree that it is likely to eventually become bannable offense. However the only thing said about DPS meters so far is that they will not be possible to create for the game
Actually, they said they *think* they have eliminated *most* avenues data can be obtained for combat trackers to work.
Intrepid know perfectly well they can't get rid of all avenues, and so they won't even attempt to state otherwise.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with a combat tracker developers anonomously by a developer at Intrepid anyway - a lot of people there are on board with them, just not Steven.
there is 1 slight misunderstanding, meters are not a drug that might kill you, but it just information of what happened - that is more like news media
Omg...stuff just goes over your head doesnt it...read to what i was responding to, with this analogy, maybe u will understand then
Yes I read it, your analogy clearly was promoting that using meters is such a severe action that it is comparable to illegal drug usage. Your entire point was about communicating that meters are bad
My point was was if aoc doesnt allow meter and as your buddy said theres still gona be 3rd party meters anyway, doesnt mean that aoc should just allow them. Get the analogy now?
We all understand what you were trying to say, you just went with the wrong criminal act.
If you want to make an analogy, there needs to be more in common between the two things you are comparing than just "they are both against the rules". That isn't an analogy, that is just pulling any two things that are against the rules and lumping them in together. In this kind of analogy, you want the type of offending to be similar, the method for offending to be similar, and the consequences for offending to be similar.
Comparing combat tracker use in a game that may not even make it against the rules with actual murder does not fit this description, and so is a poor analogy to make.
Again, it isn't that we don't understand what you were trying to say, it is that the analogy you opted to use was poor.
I believe DPS meters are unhealthy for the game because people will rely too much on that and instead of using the class they think is more fun they will be pressured into choosing the class with the highest DPS because party raids will not accept people who don't live to their "DPS standards"
The problem is, the game will have a meta (the classes and builds players generally assume to be the best at any given role) regardless of if a combat tracker exists.
Archeage is a perfect example of this - 99% of the population didn't even know the game had a combat tracker, yet it has the most strict meta of any MMO other than WoW.
Worse than that, the meta is static due to no one being willing to change builds to try out new things. Go to AA now, and Darkrunners nad Daggerspells are still the main meta, just as they were in 2014.
I don't think DPS meters will matter too much in this game. Raids themselves won't be too mechanically difficult, therefore a need for DPS meter to know who's slacking who's not will not be there.
I mean the biggest dps meter supporters are the wow raiders who cant raid if they dont have numbers which tell them if they can or cant kill the raid boss. At this point its even ridiculous to discuss this as clearly people who support this games vision are against dps meters, its just people who want to see another "wow killer" are who wants this kind of stuff
I mean the biggest dps meter supporters are the wow raiders who cant raid if they dont have numbers which tell them if they can or cant kill the raid boss. At this point its even ridiculous to discuss this as clearly people who support this games vision are against dps meters, its just people who want to see another "wow killer" are who wants this kind of stuff
Agree 100%. This or (in my opinion) people who have a vested interest in making a DPS meter type mod/addon and then marketing it for players to use.
I mean the biggest dps meter supporters are the wow raiders who cant raid if they dont have numbers which tell them if they can or cant kill the raid boss. At this point its even ridiculous to discuss this as clearly people who support this games vision are against dps meters, its just people who want to see another "wow killer" are who wants this kind of stuff
Combat trackers aren’t about “Is it good enough?”, they’re about “What works better?”
You wanting to keep everyone in the dark with information obscured and difficult to use would make the entire community worse off
You wanting to keep everyone in the dark with information obscured and difficult to use would make the entire community worse off
How will it make the community worse off? Because some niche world first speed running PvE progression will be inhibited? Is the community going to be unable to adapt and fail to clear content without meters?
Maybe the community should be in the dark. To open up more discussion referencing ideas, experiments, and experiences in that pursuit of bettering your build. To allow the community to pursue an expressive path of play without such an oppressive pressure of playing what is more statistically optimal. To facilitate more creative builds, metas, communication, and problem solving in the face of adversity with their own knowledge of the game. Numbers aren't the metric for success and improvement if a boss' health reaches 0 (RIP... that's a number ) after previous failures. Avenues to improve; beat your own record on times, players alive, or other variances in strategy can still be accomplished with experience (and the coveted gear upgrades from successive... successes ) rather than forcing as much out of your meters as possible.
Progress, in it's various forms, should happen organically. Pushing numbers can stifle that as much as help it develop; for example fear of trying something new at the expense of the numbers going down. Or failure to adapt a new strategy that may better suit them when not achieving their goals because they haven't explored outside the one route of play determined as the "best". And to be fair, I think that in a group setting these points would be equally toxic as being uninformed - the variance would be on individual players' expectations for their teammates. Additionally, most plainly, a lot of players will feel like they need to take the objectively-proven most efficient and optimal style of play when numbers are easily available - at the expense of fun. Some will make their fun in trying to push the most meta builds in extreme PvE progression. I'm not sure that is reflective of the community as a whole, though. I certainly hope not.
Inb4 the obligatory "Those things won't happen without DPS meters, and 100% will happen with DPS meters only."
: )
Nobody is mystified as to what logs bring to the table. What you need to remove from said table to make room for it is the concern. The freedom of choice will become an illusion as a community created funnel dictates how players interact with both each other, their own character, and the content.
You really wanna try to claim it’s objective information that’s going to discourage experimentation? The thing that is required for experimentation is supposedly going to make people afraid of it?
You just have a very negative attitude towards players who value performance. I’ve not seen anyone be more toxic than groups of casual players who whine and yell at developers when better players (surprise surprise) perform better than they do.
I’ve been in hardcore guilds that were way more chilled than the wannabe hardcores. I’ve seen people kicked from progression guilds for giving advice to players in a dps discussion thread. The hardcore players who use this information to its fullest are always the most helpful and most willing to teach.
Half the time, “toxicity” from high end raiders is nothing more than them not being willing to carry someone who isn’t willing to attempt improvement, or who literally cannot perform to the level needed to clear the content. You aren’t entitled to waste someone’s time.
“It’ll force players to play a certain way” yeah it’ll make sure they have to pull their weight, and they can’t hide poor performance in an effort to get carried.
I mean the biggest dps meter supporters are the wow raiders who cant raid if they dont have numbers which tell them if they can or cant kill the raid boss. At this point its even ridiculous to discuss this as clearly people who support this games vision are against dps meters, its just people who want to see another "wow killer" are who wants this kind of stuff
Combat trackers can't tell you whether you can or can't kill any encounter in a game.
You are just making shit up now, and then claiming it is ridiculous to discuss this with supporters of combat trackers.
I mean, I agree, it would be ridiculous for you and I to discuss how combat trackers tell players if they can or can't kill a raid boss - but only because that is a completely absurd notion to begin with.
You wanting to keep everyone in the dark with information obscured and difficult to use would make the entire community worse off
How will it make the community worse off? Because some niche world first speed running PvE progression will be inhibited? Is the community going to be unable to adapt and fail to clear content without meters?
Maybe the community should be in the dark. To open up more discussion referencing ideas, experiments, and experiences in that pursuit of bettering your build. To allow the community to pursue an expressive path of play without such an oppressive pressure of playing what is more statistically optimal. To facilitate more creative builds, metas, communication, and problem solving in the face of adversity with their own knowledge of the game. Numbers aren't the metric for success and improvement if a boss' health reaches 0 (RIP... that's a number ) after previous failures. Avenues to improve; beat your own record on times, players alive, or other variances in strategy can still be accomplished with experience (and the coveted gear upgrades from successive... successes ) rather than forcing as much out of your meters as possible.
Progress, in it's various forms, should happen organically. Pushing numbers can stifle that as much as help it develop; for example fear of trying something new at the expense of the numbers going down. Or failure to adapt a new strategy that may better suit them when not achieving their goals because they haven't explored outside the one route of play determined as the "best". And to be fair, I think that in a group setting these points would be equally toxic as being uninformed - the variance would be on individual players' expectations for their teammates. Additionally, most plainly, a lot of players will feel like they need to take the objectively-proven most efficient and optimal style of play when numbers are easily available - at the expense of fun. Some will make their fun in trying to push the most meta builds in extreme PvE progression. I'm not sure that is reflective of the community as a whole, though. I certainly hope not.
Inb4 the obligatory "Those things won't happen without DPS meters, and 100% will happen with DPS meters only."
: )
Nobody is mystified as to what logs bring to the table. What you need to remove from said table to make room for it is the concern. The freedom of choice will become an illusion as a community created funnel dictates how players interact with both each other, their own character, and the content.
I agree that these goals for organic improvement is so important and immersive. The only problem I have is that you are proposing for everyone to value things based on their subjective feel and their own ideas.
The thing that will come out as "best" from such system without objective information is at best mediocre build that the loudest person shared on the most places for the sheep that follow meta to follow blindly.
Don't exchange objective information for guesswork of the loudest person that sounds most convincing.
You wanting to keep everyone in the dark with information obscured and difficult to use would make the entire community worse off
How will it make the community worse off? Because some niche world first speed running PvE progression will be inhibited? Is the community going to be unable to adapt and fail to clear content without meters?
Maybe the community should be in the dark. To open up more discussion referencing ideas, experiments, and experiences in that pursuit of bettering your build. To allow the community to pursue an expressive path of play without such an oppressive pressure of playing what is more statistically optimal. To facilitate more creative builds, metas, communication, and problem solving in the face of adversity with their own knowledge of the game. Numbers aren't the metric for success and improvement if a boss' health reaches 0 (RIP... that's a number ) after previous failures. Avenues to improve; beat your own record on times, players alive, or other variances in strategy can still be accomplished with experience (and the coveted gear upgrades from successive... successes ) rather than forcing as much out of your meters as possible.
Progress, in it's various forms, should happen organically. Pushing numbers can stifle that as much as help it develop; for example fear of trying something new at the expense of the numbers going down. Or failure to adapt a new strategy that may better suit them when not achieving their goals because they haven't explored outside the one route of play determined as the "best". And to be fair, I think that in a group setting these points would be equally toxic as being uninformed - the variance would be on individual players' expectations for their teammates. Additionally, most plainly, a lot of players will feel like they need to take the objectively-proven most efficient and optimal style of play when numbers are easily available - at the expense of fun. Some will make their fun in trying to push the most meta builds in extreme PvE progression. I'm not sure that is reflective of the community as a whole, though. I certainly hope not.
Inb4 the obligatory "Those things won't happen without DPS meters, and 100% will happen with DPS meters only."
: )
Nobody is mystified as to what logs bring to the table. What you need to remove from said table to make room for it is the concern. The freedom of choice will become an illusion as a community created funnel dictates how players interact with both each other, their own character, and the content.
I agree that these goals for organic improvement is so important and immersive. The only problem I have is that you are proposing for everyone to value things based on their subjective feel and their own ideas.
The thing that will come out as "best" from such system without objective information is at best mediocre build that the loudest person shared on the most places for the sheep that follow meta to follow blindly.
Don't exchange objective information for guesswork of the loudest person that sounds most convincing.
The scenario you describe here is the ideal though, isn't it? Where sheep are following a false meta, and there's opporunity for you to find your own unique build that's BETTER than the meta?
I'd prefer sheep being unoptimized, than everyone playing the "objectively" proven #1 build.
That's what I mean by the DPS meter ruining imagination.
The scenario you describe here is the ideal though, isn't it? Where sheep are following a false meta, and there's opporunity for you to find your own unique build that's BETTER than the meta?
I'd prefer sheep being unoptimized, than everyone playing the "objectively" proven #1 build.
That's what I mean by the DPS meter ruining imagination.
You are assuming a static meta, or perhaps a PvE only game with static content.
In a game with ever-changing PvE content and a high degree of PvP, there will always be a new build to come up with.
It may be a build to better take on the new PvE encounter the server just accessed, or it may be a build to counter various builds that are a part of the games current meta.
There will be plenty of opportunity for creative people to come up with new builds in Ashes, and a combat tracker will make that process easier and faster (in fact, a combat tracker will make the process accepted, without one it will not be accepted). The only people that would complain about a lack of creativity are people that lack creativity.
Comments
I will, and will read peoples posts that can make their point in fewer words, and will weigh in on the discussion. And people who talk the most usually don't have much to say, so im not bothered
Yeah, well Dps meters sux, makes fame easier, shouldn't be in this game.
They will exist regardless.
So what? Murderers exist, doesn't mean murdering should be legal.
Jumping straight to murderers is a bit hyperbolic.
Tone it back a little bit.
thats the best answer you could come up with? Did u not understand the analogy?
Ok, crack exists and some people use it, doesn't mean it should be legal. Better?
― Plato
Omg...stuff just goes over your head doesnt it...read to what i was responding to, with this analogy, maybe u will understand then
He was pointing out the same flaw in your analogy that I was - analogies need to have at least some resemblence to what is being talked about.
If you want to talk crime in regards to analogies with combat trackers, there is only one applicable that I can think of - insider trading.
Combat trackers provide people with information that they may be able to use to their advantage, which is what insider trading is, essentially.
Yes, there are laws against it, but there are also checks in place. The law doesn't prevent people from having the information in question, it just places limits on what they can do with that informaiton.
The proposal in this thread actually goes further than the laws on insider trading, as it not only limits what players can do with the information a combat tracker gives them, it also limits the information that can be obtained.
The fact that you don't know how analogies work shouldn't come as a surprise, I mean, it's just like how Volkswagon cheated the emmissions testing.
Yes I read it, your analogy clearly was promoting that using meters is such a severe action that it is comparable to illegal drug usage. Your entire point was about communicating that meters are bad
― Plato
@Tragnar he's making that comparison because DPS meters will be illegal 3rd party addons, which will be a bannable offense.
― Plato
Sure, I'm just trying to explain that one person said, "DPS meters will exist anyways" <--- as 3rd party addons.
And the other person is saying "but murderering isn't ok" <--- 3rd party addons aren't planned for AoC
But yes, it's not adding anything to the discussion.
My point was was if aoc doesnt allow meter and as your buddy said theres still gona be 3rd party meters anyway, doesnt mean that aoc should just allow them. Get the analogy now?
Was thinking to have option like....
Target dummy that attacks and have choice of atack magical physical if it applies
Option to turn buffs on and off to see how they affect damage. Like lets say buff you usually get from priest.
Same thing with armour and debuffs and defensive abilities on the target dummy.
Option to make all cds one second that way you do not have to wait three to five minutes to test ability out.
And really good informative tool tips for abilities showing damage of ability and how it is calculated.
Aslo lets say there is a item that gives you 10 percent more hit points if item showed how many actual extra hit points you get. Sometimes it just affects base hit points and not say hit points you get from gems.
In summary if player had a clear understanding of how the game mechanics works to determine dps of heals or mitigating damage then that would be in my opinion just as good as dps meter.
Think this would be pretty good thing to have since there is a no dps meters policy.
Intrepid know perfectly well they can't get rid of all avenues, and so they won't even attempt to state otherwise.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with a combat tracker developers anonomously by a developer at Intrepid anyway - a lot of people there are on board with them, just not Steven.
We all understand what you were trying to say, you just went with the wrong criminal act.
If you want to make an analogy, there needs to be more in common between the two things you are comparing than just "they are both against the rules". That isn't an analogy, that is just pulling any two things that are against the rules and lumping them in together. In this kind of analogy, you want the type of offending to be similar, the method for offending to be similar, and the consequences for offending to be similar.
Comparing combat tracker use in a game that may not even make it against the rules with actual murder does not fit this description, and so is a poor analogy to make.
Again, it isn't that we don't understand what you were trying to say, it is that the analogy you opted to use was poor.
The problem is, the game will have a meta (the classes and builds players generally assume to be the best at any given role) regardless of if a combat tracker exists.
Archeage is a perfect example of this - 99% of the population didn't even know the game had a combat tracker, yet it has the most strict meta of any MMO other than WoW.
Worse than that, the meta is static due to no one being willing to change builds to try out new things. Go to AA now, and Darkrunners nad Daggerspells are still the main meta, just as they were in 2014.
I assume we don't want that for Ashes.
Agree 100%. This or (in my opinion) people who have a vested interest in making a DPS meter type mod/addon and then marketing it for players to use.
Combat trackers aren’t about “Is it good enough?”, they’re about “What works better?”
You wanting to keep everyone in the dark with information obscured and difficult to use would make the entire community worse off
How will it make the community worse off? Because some niche world first speed running PvE progression will be inhibited? Is the community going to be unable to adapt and fail to clear content without meters?
Maybe the community should be in the dark. To open up more discussion referencing ideas, experiments, and experiences in that pursuit of bettering your build. To allow the community to pursue an expressive path of play without such an oppressive pressure of playing what is more statistically optimal. To facilitate more creative builds, metas, communication, and problem solving in the face of adversity with their own knowledge of the game. Numbers aren't the metric for success and improvement if a boss' health reaches 0 (RIP... that's a number
Progress, in it's various forms, should happen organically. Pushing numbers can stifle that as much as help it develop; for example fear of trying something new at the expense of the numbers going down. Or failure to adapt a new strategy that may better suit them when not achieving their goals because they haven't explored outside the one route of play determined as the "best". And to be fair, I think that in a group setting these points would be equally toxic as being uninformed - the variance would be on individual players' expectations for their teammates. Additionally, most plainly, a lot of players will feel like they need to take the objectively-proven most efficient and optimal style of play when numbers are easily available - at the expense of fun. Some will make their fun in trying to push the most meta builds in extreme PvE progression. I'm not sure that is reflective of the community as a whole, though. I certainly hope not.
Inb4 the obligatory "Those things won't happen without DPS meters, and 100% will happen with DPS meters only."
: )
Nobody is mystified as to what logs bring to the table. What you need to remove from said table to make room for it is the concern. The freedom of choice will become an illusion as a community created funnel dictates how players interact with both each other, their own character, and the content.
You just have a very negative attitude towards players who value performance. I’ve not seen anyone be more toxic than groups of casual players who whine and yell at developers when better players (surprise surprise) perform better than they do.
I’ve been in hardcore guilds that were way more chilled than the wannabe hardcores. I’ve seen people kicked from progression guilds for giving advice to players in a dps discussion thread. The hardcore players who use this information to its fullest are always the most helpful and most willing to teach.
Half the time, “toxicity” from high end raiders is nothing more than them not being willing to carry someone who isn’t willing to attempt improvement, or who literally cannot perform to the level needed to clear the content. You aren’t entitled to waste someone’s time.
“It’ll force players to play a certain way” yeah it’ll make sure they have to pull their weight, and they can’t hide poor performance in an effort to get carried.
Combat trackers can't tell you whether you can or can't kill any encounter in a game.
You are just making shit up now, and then claiming it is ridiculous to discuss this with supporters of combat trackers.
I mean, I agree, it would be ridiculous for you and I to discuss how combat trackers tell players if they can or can't kill a raid boss - but only because that is a completely absurd notion to begin with.
I agree that these goals for organic improvement is so important and immersive. The only problem I have is that you are proposing for everyone to value things based on their subjective feel and their own ideas.
The thing that will come out as "best" from such system without objective information is at best mediocre build that the loudest person shared on the most places for the sheep that follow meta to follow blindly.
Don't exchange objective information for guesswork of the loudest person that sounds most convincing.
― Plato
The scenario you describe here is the ideal though, isn't it? Where sheep are following a false meta, and there's opporunity for you to find your own unique build that's BETTER than the meta?
I'd prefer sheep being unoptimized, than everyone playing the "objectively" proven #1 build.
That's what I mean by the DPS meter ruining imagination.
In a game with ever-changing PvE content and a high degree of PvP, there will always be a new build to come up with.
It may be a build to better take on the new PvE encounter the server just accessed, or it may be a build to counter various builds that are a part of the games current meta.
There will be plenty of opportunity for creative people to come up with new builds in Ashes, and a combat tracker will make that process easier and faster (in fact, a combat tracker will make the process accepted, without one it will not be accepted). The only people that would complain about a lack of creativity are people that lack creativity.