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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Diversity & Inclusion
suprvilln
Member
Hello there!
Let's get this out of the way. I'm black. I was born black, raised black, and I feel I will be black for quite some time. I love gaming and exploring new worlds and new stories in those games.
I have played only a handful of MMOs (BDO, ESO, GW1, GW2, Archeage, LOTRO) and only 1 has included a specific black ethnicity (ESO with Redguards) and 1 has a general human race with multiple ethnicities that you could create but can actually fit into a specific culture (GW2 with Elonans and Canthans).
Even GW2 stumbled at first because for 4 years after launch the only hair options for black characters was an afro, dreadlocks, and a bald head (tacky and lacks creativity). It was only when they geared up towards their Path of Fire release that they included more diverse hairstyles and I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.
I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people.
I am super excited to play Ashes but looking at the races it looks like there are 8 white races and 1 kind of culturally ambiguous race that is meant to be a catch all for "non-white". Is it a big ask to think outside of the box more to include more culturally diverse characters to allow more people to be able to see themselves represented in the game without being locked to one character race?
Like my main will be a dwarf for SURE. I have always loved dwarves. But why is there never any non-white dwarf races? Dwarves can be seen in mythology for cultures all around the world, not just in western Europe. Why do we keep clinging to these tropes? it is an honest question because this is something that serves as a barrier for immersion for myself and for many players of color. There are lots of cool stories there that are just waiting to be explored.
I look forward to the responses I will get and the sad thing is I am ready to be demeaned and the berated by people for asking something so simple lol.
Let's get this out of the way. I'm black. I was born black, raised black, and I feel I will be black for quite some time. I love gaming and exploring new worlds and new stories in those games.
I have played only a handful of MMOs (BDO, ESO, GW1, GW2, Archeage, LOTRO) and only 1 has included a specific black ethnicity (ESO with Redguards) and 1 has a general human race with multiple ethnicities that you could create but can actually fit into a specific culture (GW2 with Elonans and Canthans).
Even GW2 stumbled at first because for 4 years after launch the only hair options for black characters was an afro, dreadlocks, and a bald head (tacky and lacks creativity). It was only when they geared up towards their Path of Fire release that they included more diverse hairstyles and I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.
I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people.
I am super excited to play Ashes but looking at the races it looks like there are 8 white races and 1 kind of culturally ambiguous race that is meant to be a catch all for "non-white". Is it a big ask to think outside of the box more to include more culturally diverse characters to allow more people to be able to see themselves represented in the game without being locked to one character race?
Like my main will be a dwarf for SURE. I have always loved dwarves. But why is there never any non-white dwarf races? Dwarves can be seen in mythology for cultures all around the world, not just in western Europe. Why do we keep clinging to these tropes? it is an honest question because this is something that serves as a barrier for immersion for myself and for many players of color. There are lots of cool stories there that are just waiting to be explored.
I look forward to the responses I will get and the sad thing is I am ready to be demeaned and the berated by people for asking something so simple lol.
10
Comments
U.S. East
you didn't keep your mouth shut though because you responded lol. I would like to hear your input, even if you don't agree. believe me, I have literally been called the word on map chat for asking a similar question.. I've heard it all.
you didn't read my post.
I dont think (from what I know) that the actual races of Vera have specifc skin tones besides the Tulnar who are lizards who live underground and will have scales.
The Island dwarves I know will be dark because of the island areas they represent which makes sense. I think one of the human races were already promoted as dark skinned (I think)
But I was pretty sure somewhere steven said that the races are different by actually being different races, the skin tones should be universaly malleable for them besides the Tulnar scaly folks
But will it be QUALITY representation is my question? just having dark skin and doing nothing else isnt enough. That is when you end up getting outdated stereotyped characters like this ..
I did, but that's really all I can input with this level of information. I personally don't care what race any character is in a video game so I can't really relate too much. Just because I'm spanish doesn't mean I care if spanish races are actually in the game. If I did I would probably be happy with a skin slider.
Culturally most races across MMO's borrow from just about every culture in the world somewhere. I don't think the game is going to be lacking culturally at all by what they revealed of races so far.
U.S. East
not just skin color. As mentioned in my original post, people like the Redguard in ESO and the Elonans/Canthans in GW2 actually have their own cultures. The Vaelune in this game appear to be influenced by North African/Arab culture by the stylings I see on the wiki. I was moreso getting towards why does it need to stop there.. There are black dwarven, elven, orcish characters in mythology, and I am certain there are equivalents in latin and asian cultures as well. I can make a darker skinned dwarf, but will I have to choose a dwarf with straight hair? and if I get my dwarf to look how I want, will I be able to interface with other NPC dwarven characters of color? will the story allow for that? or will it just be my black dwarf in an island of white dwarves? That's more what I was getting toward... Will it be 1 race (Vaelune) with that cultural influence or will the other 8 races have that built in to their backgrounds as well?
I think I'm confused here too. Do you mean skin shaders and a detailed existence of modern hair styles or realistic hairstyles of humans today cross culturally? If so thats a good question to ask on the discord channel directly to the devs. I dont think we have any real information yet on that.
As far as cultures themselves I'm pretty certain none of the races focus on anything specific but pull from dozens of cultures with healthy doses of pure creative fantasy
It is not a slight against Dark Skinned people, it is a fantasy setting with fantasy races.
This rings true.. i'll try anyways. Let's see if i fuck up.
Now, i will say i disagree with there not being representation in Ashes specifically.
They have alot of cultures present that are non-white, like some of them listed below, i don't see any of these as "white" in either culture, looks or theme.
Kaivek Orcs - Asian swamp culture
Niküa Dwarves - Polynesian sailor culture
Vaelune Humans - Middleeastern trading culture
and more-
Now that said, they could have more African and Inuit culture represented, but i'm not gonna start a discussion on that topic.
I can't tell you your feelings are wrong, cause that would be downright stupid of me, so i'll ask, what do you think they SHOULD include to combat this feeling?
More hairstyles and cosmetics or something else entirely?
I was speaking altogether. I haven't been on the Alpha at all so I do not know. My original post was moreso asking a question since the wiki doesnt have much in the way of details about the races. For example, in most fantasy games, if not all, Dwarves are purely based on Scandinavian lore. However, dwarves appear in mythology all around the world. There can be an African twist on dwarves, an East asian twist on elves.. things of that nature.. Also in a lot of games you can absolutely make black characters of any race but you dont ever see black characters of that race in the world. Like I can make a Black Elf character but when I play the game ALL the NPCs are white... it makes you just feel like you are an outlier which is leads towards the inlcusion side of my question.
in any resort I certainly look forward to what the game has to offer.
it's unfeasible but we see all white races in fantasy games all the time which is the reason behind my frustration and my post.
I pretty much agree with everything you said, and wish developers with take these concerns into consideration from the very beginning of development.
My problem is with the recent push to force developers to change a game they have been working on for 3 years plus. I'm not accusing you of doing this in your post, but this is how the pressure begins and before you know it, their are 1000's of people calling names, threatening, and demanding they change their vision to fit current social issue instead of what the original concept was.
Ahh okay I'm getting what your saying now.
You're making sure that its not just player created skin shaders and that representation of the skin and different styles more akin to our real world is shown differently naturally in the game for races.
Truth be told we have no idea on that since we have only been exposed to the combat testing stuff for their combat phases for the past 2 years.
Steven has been very secretive on the lore in the game and what details each race. I think we'll get more info on what you're looking for as the devs wind up to the actual beta phases or until Steven directly releases info on the cultures themselves.
What we know on the races now are extremely bare. This was intentional since they said they wanted the game to be about discovery on launch. That being said steven himself is one of the most open minded folk you could think of and I highly doubt (especially given the diversity of his team) that he hasnt considered this yet
However, I don't think it's a good idea to lock skin color to certain races. People should be able to pick what they want in a game. I mean even in real life there are white africans.
U.S. East
One thing to consider is not everyone looks for representation in games. Games are fiction, and to experience that fiction many people escape to it by making believe they are someone else.
I'm Indian and have never felt left out or desired representation in MMOs because that's just not how I immerse myself and engage with fictional experiences. I happily make believe in games with my occupation, clothing, character history, skills, hair colour, voice, house, and mount. Making believe my race/skin tone is just another item in that list for me, and I don't need it to reflect my real life.
This isn't meant to take away from how your experiences have made you feel or what you want in a game; it's just to give a different perspective from someone who's (technically) Asian.
I also think it's fine if the 8 "white classes" are just that. That doesn't mean they are all the same or do not have cultural diversity. For example, Italians,Irish, the British, the French, Germans, and other Euroethnic races generally are considered white, but they culturally differ from each other.
There are 195 countries in the world with their own regions, including everyone would be impossible. Forced diversity is not diversity. It's the illusion of it.
However, we don't know much of the lore yet, if at all really. There isn't really much to go off of. I wouldn't want the lore/gameworld to change due to diversity/inclusion. It should fit the philosophy/scope of those in charge to build what they think is the best MMO experience.
Also let's be real man, these tulnar have been underground for God knows how long. They haven't seen sunlight in ages. If any ingame-race's skin color would be all white, it'd probably be them. Some of em do be reptiles and the like though.
Pretty sure I saw a black female towards the end of Lazy peon's video. It was the scene with the 4 winged bird on her shoulder.
So I don't think you should be worried.
Your statement that you see all white races in fantasy games all the time. And that you can't make your character look like yourself in most games. Makes me think that you think white guys have no problem making their character look like themselves because well all white guys look the same.
I could be wrong and maybe should not have said anything.
But no I have never felt excluded. Maybe its because I'm a minority of minorities and used to not fitting in visually anywhere. Or that i'm more about the game and less about what my character looks like. I often skip the character creation all together honestly.
I would like to hear your thoughts about my previous comment, if you have any.
Also, unrelated, what other cultures have Dwarf-like beings outside Scandinavia? Just out of curiosity.
I think its fine that the question is asked.
I seriously doubt that forced diversity is a term we can apply to a completely new fantasy game that has a totally new and unique world with no precedent in its lore or its regions. Especially since the world we are about to enter is a post-apocolyptic world in ruins where th races are returnining from several different worlds.
I mean if I saw an awesome looking game that looked like my dream game, I would be looking for every way to project myself into the game too.
Now the tulnar thing isnt really true either pale skin underground doesnt really apply to things like reptilian creatures.
Ok so.. this post really encompasses all that’s wrong with eurocentric game cultures. It’s not about being “strong enough” to block off feeling anything about being ignored in a game. There’s a lot of unintentional bias that comes from people, and part of that bias manifests as lack of representation in popular media.
As it stands, I think Ashes is going to do alright. The African/middle eastern-oriented cultural representation seems to be Vaelune. The Ren’Kai seem somewhat rooted in eastern culture. Dunir in sort of Mongolian style. Nikua in indigenous island culture. The elven races make up various European cultures.
If the promise of robust character customization options hold true, then I would hope we will see visually distinct cultural aspects players are able to create within their characters to represent themselves.
It was a joke bro. Can't tell if sarcasm or not. I also never said OP shouldn't have asked the question.
Also, I never said the lore was forcing diversity or forced diversity is related to the lore/game. I was speaking in general to OP. I prefaced that part with talking about irl cultural races/ the plethora of other countries to show one can't include everyone. By extension, if people are included it should be by intended design/merit.
I think that every day we're coming on these forums to a thread asking about real world problems in Ashes. Racial diversity, sexual diversity and possibly any other politics that can be imagined.
I'm not trying to ignore real life issues or the reported discrimination against peoples of the world.
Ashes is just a game though, and that is how it should be. Every day the news reports the issues of the world. Every day I hear it all.
I play games like Ashes to escape that. I think we all do. So let's leave Ashes to be that escape from the real world.
Im sorry for anyone that faces discrimination in real life, but, and let's be honest here, no one at Intrepid has designed these races to be discriminatory.
Lets just all be gamers and have a politics free Ashes.
Allow me to see if I understand you correctly. IRL if you live in America, as someone of African descent, you can very likely find others to hang out with. Likewise with other races in other cultures. You seek this same immersion in game - correct?
My counterpoint to the perceived issue would be this: Races in games are modeled off of real races, albeit generally from the past, but they are still a race. Vikings were not black because of obvious geographical and technological limitations. Yet, an RPG might give you the option to color slide to be black anyway. Failing to see diversity in this way would be like somehow having a black Irishman (I know in present times this is obviously possible but again mentioning the past) in real life in say 1000AD.
I dont think its wrong that a eurocentric area create a game based on.. well its area lol. I wouldnt expect an African game studio to cater to a white skin color in an african region based game, or a japanese game studio to do so in a japanese based region game. Realism is something I can appreciate based on locality and also to enjoy the specific cultures of them.
But I do agree that ashes already appears to be poised correctly in this area because its not based specifically in anything, in fact its one of the few games with a very perfectly diverse landmass with an even better lore background for the differences as well.
But, who cares? I was raised, and still believe today that as M.L.K. Jr. said, "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." When I watch the Black Panther, I don't think where's my representation because it's already there. It's there when T'Challa is talking to his father in the afterlife, it's there when M'Baku decides to stand with, and protect T'Challa.
We're much more than just the color of our skin; we share a much deeper bond. We're all brothers, and sisters. We're all human.