I do not want politics in a video game. That type of thinking is what directly ruins the integrity and immersion of a world.
Besides AoC is more than likely already about as diverse as it gets. We're getting a lizard race and hawaiin dwarves.
are you saying having diverse races in a game = politics? lol.
No, if you look at what I was replying to I was talking about a different subject altogether there from the previous postings who were talking about off topic items.
You can see from my other posts that AoC is already in the direction of diversity.
MMO's should be diverse. Thats kind of the point
ah for sure... i knew this post would get out of hand and people would immediately get defensive lol.
i never said devs are racist, simply expressed my experience with MMOs and people fall over themselves going crazy and talking about BLM and ANTIFA *shrugs*... thank you for your feedback though, you had some valuable input and I appreciate you
0
Options
NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I do not want politics in a video game. That type of thinking is what directly ruins the integrity and immersion of a world.
Besides AoC is more than likely already about as diverse as it gets. We're getting a lizard race and hawaiin dwarves.
are you saying having diverse races in a game = politics? lol.
No, if you look at what I was replying to I was talking about a different subject altogether there from the previous postings who were talking about off topic items.
You can see from my other posts that AoC is already in the direction of diversity.
MMO's should be diverse. Thats kind of the point
ah for sure... i knew this post would get out of hand and people would immediately get defensive lol.
i never said devs are racist, simply expressed my experience with MMOs and people fall over themselves going crazy and talking about BLM and ANTIFA *shrugs*... thank you for your feedback though, you had some valuable input and I appreciate you
Ah no problem.
I wouldnt sweat it dude, when this topic comes up sometimes people take it as an attack. Its not your fault, asking if the game will have diverse options is totally cool and in a project this exciting with this unique design its not surprising at all to want to know if you can project your image ingame or if there's a race/city/religion close to what you're trying to build your characters around.
I guess current political events have people
on edge for different reasons and your question would have probably been taken differently if it werent for the current climate. I would just suggest calm patience with this since emotions with people are high all around.
I think that every day we're coming on these forums to a thread asking about real world problems in Ashes. Racial diversity, sexual diversity and possibly any other politics that can be imagined.
I'm not trying to ignore real life issues or the reported discrimination against peoples of the world.
Ashes is just a game though, and that is how it should be. Every day the news reports the issues of the world. Every day I hear it all.
I play games like Ashes to escape that. I think we all do. So let's leave Ashes to be that escape from the real world.
Im sorry for anyone that faces discrimination in real life, but, and let's be honest here, no one at Intrepid has designed these races to be discriminatory.
Lets just all be gamers and have a politics free Ashes.
It is ignorant and naïve of you to say people play games to escape the problems of the world when a lot if problems in the world can be found in games as well. You have to look at things in a bigger picture and for POC, LGBTQ, alt lifestyle people to live in a world where they are not fairly represented and then in their form of escape (gaming) they face those same things. That is the world we love in and these games and stories are made/told by people who live in the real world and if they want their game to truly be an escape then they would at least consider that they have the power to provide a sense of inclusion in a game that is often sparse in the real world. They of course do not have to but they do themselves and their player base a disservice by not doing so. From what i have learned/researched today it seems as though AoC has taken that into consideration which means a lot to me.
Well of course some people play games to find the problems, but that is just modern PC politics. All it leads to is the knocking down of statues of someone who lived 200 years ago, or forced stories in culture in an effort to please everyone. There was a statue petitioned to be knocked down in Leeds, UK. It turned out the people petitioning were so ignorant that they had the wrong person. The statue was of the son, not the father. Did they back down? Did they heck. They got together and wracked their brains to find a reason to pull down the statue of the son. He was Robert Peel, the founder of the modern police force.
That is PC culture. At any length.
Like I say, I would love a world where all human beings are treated the same. I'd rather not force the issue either.
I do play games to escape all this. I also think 'why play a game set in a fantasy universe influenced by the middle ages' if we don't want to escape? Do we all secretly long to be dwarves and elves?
Hello there!
I am super excited to play Ashes but looking at the races it looks like there are 8 white races and 1 kind of culturally ambiguous race that is meant to be a catch all for "non-white". Is it a big ask to think outside of the box more to include more culturally diverse characters to allow more people to be able to see themselves represented in the game without being locked to one character race?
Like my main will be a dwarf for SURE. I have always loved dwarves. But why is there never any non-white dwarf races? Dwarves can be seen in mythology for cultures all around the world, not just in western Europe. Why do we keep clinging to these tropes? it is an honest question because this is something that serves as a barrier for immersion for myself and for many players of color. There are lots of cool stories there that are just waiting to be explored.
I look forward to the responses I will get and the sad thing is I am ready to be demeaned and the berated by people for asking something so simple lol.
Well, I don't really care what color your skin is or anything about your genetics; you are a soul and have a body. You're a human being.
Short answer: We don't "cling to these tropes," we play games that include them. They were invented in the mythologies of (predominantly) Norse legends, those were a certain race of men. For brevity, I won't explain further regarding skin color, I hope that's obvious. But you know this.
If skin-shade sliders are not enough for you, then what I think you require is lore. It's a good thing to ask of them, I'm not denouncing you or the asking in any way. But you need Intrepid to create lore, as Bethesda did with the Redguards. And in the case that they don not. (though I'm sure they have capable professionals), why not write your own and post it? Give some fuel. In other words, make it real in the game by your actions. Do it yourself.
Hello there!
I am super excited to play Ashes but looking at the races it looks like there are 8 white races and 1 kind of culturally ambiguous race that is meant to be a catch all for "non-white". Is it a big ask to think outside of the box more to include more culturally diverse characters to allow more people to be able to see themselves represented in the game without being locked to one character race?
Like my main will be a dwarf for SURE. I have always loved dwarves. But why is there never any non-white dwarf races? Dwarves can be seen in mythology for cultures all around the world, not just in western Europe. Why do we keep clinging to these tropes? it is an honest question because this is something that serves as a barrier for immersion for myself and for many players of color. There are lots of cool stories there that are just waiting to be explored.
I look forward to the responses I will get and the sad thing is I am ready to be demeaned and the berated by people for asking something so simple lol.
Well, I don't really care what color your skin is or anything about your genetics; you are a soul and have a body. You're a human being.
Short answer: We don't "cling to these tropes," we play games that include them. They were invented in the mythologies of (predominantly) Norse legends, those were a certain race of men. For brevity, I won't explain further regarding skin color, I hope that's obvious. But you know this.
If skin-shade sliders are not enough for you, then what I think you require is lore. It's a good thing to ask of them, I'm not denouncing you or the asking in any way. But you need Intrepid to create lore, as Bethesda did with the Redguards. And in the case that they don not. (though I'm sure they have capable professionals), why not write your own and post it? Give some fuel. In other words, make it real in the game by your actions. Do it yourself.
Cheers.
Howdy! I do write stories for all my characters when I play MMOs. That is part of enjoying the game for me. But me creating my own culture and player race/people wouldnt be fitting in the world of ashes of creation. a couple of posters pointed me in the right direction and i do see Ashes will be a very diverse and rich game in terms of culture and irl influence and i look forward to that
I think that every day we're coming on these forums to a thread asking about real world problems in Ashes. Racial diversity, sexual diversity and possibly any other politics that can be imagined.
I'm not trying to ignore real life issues or the reported discrimination against peoples of the world.
Ashes is just a game though, and that is how it should be. Every day the news reports the issues of the world. Every day I hear it all.
I play games like Ashes to escape that. I think we all do. So let's leave Ashes to be that escape from the real world.
Im sorry for anyone that faces discrimination in real life, but, and let's be honest here, no one at Intrepid has designed these races to be discriminatory.
Lets just all be gamers and have a politics free Ashes.
It is ignorant and naïve of you to say people play games to escape the problems of the world when a lot if problems in the world can be found in games as well. You have to look at things in a bigger picture and for POC, LGBTQ, alt lifestyle people to live in a world where they are not fairly represented and then in their form of escape (gaming) they face those same things. That is the world we love in and these games and stories are made/told by people who live in the real world and if they want their game to truly be an escape then they would at least consider that they have the power to provide a sense of inclusion in a game that is often sparse in the real world. They of course do not have to but they do themselves and their player base a disservice by not doing so. From what i have learned/researched today it seems as though AoC has taken that into consideration which means a lot to me.
Well of course some people play games to find the problems, but that is just modern PC politics. All it leads to is the knocking down of statues of someone who lived 200 years ago, or forced stories in culture in an effort to please everyone. There was a statue petitioned to be knocked down in Leeds, UK. It turned out the people petitioning were so ignorant that they had the wrong person. The statue was of the son, not the father. Did they back down? Did they heck. They got together and wracked their brains to find a reason to pull down the statue of the son. He was Robert Peel, the founder of the modern police force.
That is PC culture. At any length.
Like I say, I would love a world where all human beings are treated the same. I'd rather not force the issue either.
I do play games to escape all this. I also think 'why play a game set in a fantasy universe influenced by the middle ages' if we don't want to escape? Do we all secretly long to be dwarves and elves?
not going to go into politics but you named one instance in Leeds of people getting the wrong person, this does not negate the hundreds of statues that shouldn't be up. its not PC culture to cease idolizing/memorializing people who lived hateful lives or perpetuated genocide/massacre which is most often the case.
the failure to see the world from someone else's shoes is what causes these issues in the first place.
We cant answer your question. It is unfeasible to make a whole race one colour. Some players will be dark and some players will be light. It is a fantasy world. Some Orcs are green, some Orcs are red.
It is not a slight against Dark Skinned people, it is a fantasy setting with fantasy races.
it's unfeasible but we see all white races in fantasy games all the time which is the reason behind my frustration and my post.
This is race baiting.
It's not about a lack of Hair options. This is about stirring up drama in the BLM culture that's happening in the U.S. right now. When should I expect the Antifa posts? Does this game need Cultural Marxism as a government type?
This is a FANTASY GAME. Stop trying to bring the out side world into a space where we should have the opportunity to leave it behind. The only reason why Earth Cultures are represented in games is to offer a connection. A familiarity which helps us in our immersion of the Game world. If a game is too alien then it's harder to become immersed in it and it can put people off the game. That's why most Aliens are humanoid when it's not likely that any other species would evolve to look so much like us anywhere else in the universe.
You see what you see in games because you are the casual racist here, Not the Game Dev's as your implying. It's ok, pretty much everyone has a bias in some way. It's human nature sadly. There are plenty of games where Black people are the dominant people because that is the Developers Choice. If you feel there is a lack of "representation", the U.S. population is made up of about 13% Black people. It's less in other western countries. I am in Canada. I think the Black population is less than 8%.
Please provide citation of Dwarves and Eleves in Black/African Culture. The only examples I have found are that of spirits that are dark because they are bad/evil. They are not Elves or Dwarves, they may be described in vague similar outlines physically, but their lore isn't that of what traditional Elves and Dwarvs have been because the Traditional Elves and Dwarves and Orcs come from J.R.R. Tolkin's interpretation from Northern European stories where Dwarves and Elves didn't exist as we know them either.
It's like the modern day depiction of Santa Clause we see everywhere at Christmas started based on a Poem in the early 1800's. Coke-Cola invented the fat man in a red suit we see today in the early 1930's as part of a marketing campaign. Prior to that the idea and concept of Santa Clause was VERY different.
I see different shades of NPC's in the games I play, not because I am looking for them, they are just there for no other reason than NPC's are often created randomly. They range in all kinds of colours, not just black or white but other colours that don't exist in the real world. You also have to consider the lore of the game. Maybe a game has a very temperate climate where people don't need to evolve darker skin to be protected from a Sun that would other wise burn them. The fact is there doesn't need to be a reason to have any color of skin represented, it's a developer choice and we play their game. If you don't like the options provided then play a different game. Vote with your wallet.
This thread is divisive and cancer. Next someone will be complaining there is no way to transition and where is the Official Safe Space in the Metropolis.
I love this post!! A total swing and a miss. BLM and ANTIFA? you definitely watch Fox News lol, gotta love those hot words!
If you want to research Dwarves in African or East Asian cultures or any other culture, i support you in your quest to educate yourself... if i am race baiting dont ask me to educate you, learn for yourself.
thank you for your opinion and feedback, and have a great day!
Actually I don't watch any Main Stream media, at all. I watch independent journalists on a variety of sites. People who don't have an agenda and just point out the facts. Sorry the facts don't care about your feelings.
As I said. It's the Developers game. If you don't like it, don't pay to play it. Simple as that. If they see a significant drop in Subs over an issue I am sure they will address it if they feel it is important enough. Seems to be all Wow does these days.
I think that every day we're coming on these forums to a thread asking about real world problems in Ashes. Racial diversity, sexual diversity and possibly any other politics that can be imagined.
I'm not trying to ignore real life issues or the reported discrimination against peoples of the world.
Ashes is just a game though, and that is how it should be. Every day the news reports the issues of the world. Every day I hear it all.
I play games like Ashes to escape that. I think we all do. So let's leave Ashes to be that escape from the real world.
Im sorry for anyone that faces discrimination in real life, but, and let's be honest here, no one at Intrepid has designed these races to be discriminatory.
Lets just all be gamers and have a politics free Ashes.
It is ignorant and naïve of you to say people play games to escape the problems of the world when a lot if problems in the world can be found in games as well. You have to look at things in a bigger picture and for POC, LGBTQ, alt lifestyle people to live in a world where they are not fairly represented and then in their form of escape (gaming) they face those same things. That is the world we love in and these games and stories are made/told by people who live in the real world and if they want their game to truly be an escape then they would at least consider that they have the power to provide a sense of inclusion in a game that is often sparse in the real world. They of course do not have to but they do themselves and their player base a disservice by not doing so. From what i have learned/researched today it seems as though AoC has taken that into consideration which means a lot to me.
Well of course some people play games to find the problems, but that is just modern PC politics. All it leads to is the knocking down of statues of someone who lived 200 years ago, or forced stories in culture in an effort to please everyone. There was a statue petitioned to be knocked down in Leeds, UK. It turned out the people petitioning were so ignorant that they had the wrong person. The statue was of the son, not the father. Did they back down? Did they heck. They got together and wracked their brains to find a reason to pull down the statue of the son. He was Robert Peel, the founder of the modern police force.
That is PC culture. At any length.
Like I say, I would love a world where all human beings are treated the same. I'd rather not force the issue either.
I do play games to escape all this. I also think 'why play a game set in a fantasy universe influenced by the middle ages' if we don't want to escape? Do we all secretly long to be dwarves and elves?
not going to go into politics but you named one instance in Leeds of people getting the wrong person, this does not negate the hundreds of statues that shouldn't be up. its not PC culture to cease idolizing/memorializing people who lived hateful lives or perpetuated genocide/massacre which is most often the case.
the failure to see the world from someone else's shoes is what causes these issues in the first place.
cheers matey.
Over analysing a very different past does not change the future.
Nor does forcing a race into a fantasy game to somewhat appease a group of people.
But hopefully you will get the ability to create a realistic black character. I think you might have to accept the races are as they are though.
Think yourself lucky the only black race is not EQs Erudites. Intellectual, better-than-thou magic users who moved to a far off island to concentrate on being better than everyone else.
One day the world will be a better place for all. Over analysing history is not going to do that though, only educating the future.
I never felt excluded because the game didn't include my skin color or race of people. This idea seems very weak to me. I think people are stronger than that and I think OP you are stronger than that too. You shouldn't let some fantasy games make you feel uneasy because they didn't include your people. It's just fiction.
I also think it's fine if the 8 "white classes" are just that. That doesn't mean they are all the same or do not have cultural diversity. For example, Italians,Irish, the British, the French, Germans, and other Euroethnic races generally are considered white, but they culturally differ from each other.
There are 195 countries in the world with their own regions, including everyone would be impossible. Forced diversity is not diversity. It's the illusion of it.
However, we don't know much of the lore yet, if at all really. There isn't really much to go off of. I wouldn't want the lore/gameworld to change due to diversity/inclusion. It should fit the philosophy/scope of those in charge to build what they think is the best MMO experience.
Also let's be real man, these tulnar have been underground for God knows how long. They haven't seen sunlight in ages. If any ingame-race's skin color would be all white, it'd probably be them. Some of em do be reptiles and the like though.
well luckily it doesnt matter what you feel is "weak" lol. ive played many games without a single black character and loved it. the whole point if my original post is thinking outside of the box and building a CREATIVE and DIVERSE world to immerse myself into and not just making cookie cutter games.. no culture is a monolith and considering that makes for a better game to me. cheers!
You are being too shortsighted. It's not about what I think. It's about what you think (wrong btw since 2 people liked the post. If someone calls your idea weak maybe you should evaluate whether it is or not and provide a solid reason why it's stronger than mine. You are free to keep such fragile reasoning though man. I ain't bothered.
You should remember you posted under discussion, the place, where you know... ideas, opposing or agreeing, are exchanged. If you want a circle jerk, there's Reddit. Hopefully, no one is ignorant as to what a discussion is when one posts under "general discussion".
Ah so you are fine with playing a game without black characters and the lack of representation of yourself doesn't bother you. This clearly contradicts what you wrote in the opening. I thought it bothered you at an emotional level:
"I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people."
This contradiction tells me you made a careless mistake, or as long as you get what you envisioned, you don't give care that much about inclusivity/diversity for the good of the game. Given the way you type/ respond to people though it's probably a mistake.
You don't have to re-explain what your main point is. It ain't rocket science.
I also think it's pretty safe to say most, if not all of us are fine with the game being diverse/inclusive. But whether your version matches with the developer's version is a different story. I'd rather trust in the vision of the developers over yours.
I never felt excluded because the game didn't include my skin color or race of people. This idea seems very weak to me. I think people are stronger than that and I think OP you are stronger than that too. You shouldn't let some fantasy games make you feel uneasy because they didn't include your people. It's just fiction.
I also think it's fine if the 8 "white classes" are just that. That doesn't mean they are all the same or do not have cultural diversity. For example, Italians,Irish, the British, the French, Germans, and other Euroethnic races generally are considered white, but they culturally differ from each other.
There are 195 countries in the world with their own regions, including everyone would be impossible. Forced diversity is not diversity. It's the illusion of it.
However, we don't know much of the lore yet, if at all really. There isn't really much to go off of. I wouldn't want the lore/gameworld to change due to diversity/inclusion. It should fit the philosophy/scope of those in charge to build what they think is the best MMO experience.
Also let's be real man, these tulnar have been underground for God knows how long. They haven't seen sunlight in ages. If any ingame-race's skin color would be all white, it'd probably be them. Some of em do be reptiles and the like though.
well luckily it doesnt matter what you feel is "weak" lol. ive played many games without a single black character and loved it. the whole point if my original post is thinking outside of the box and building a CREATIVE and DIVERSE world to immerse myself into and not just making cookie cutter games.. no culture is a monolith and considering that makes for a better game to me. cheers!
You are being too shortsighted. It's not about what I think. It's about what you think (wrong btw since 2 people liked the post. If someone calls your idea weak maybe you should evaluate whether it is or not and provide a solid reason why it's stronger than mine. You are free to keep such fragile reasoning though man. I ain't bothered.
You should remember you posted under discussion, the place, where you know... ideas, opposing or agreeing, are exchanged. If you want a circle jerk, there's Reddit. Hopefully, no one is ignorant as to what a discussion is when one posts under "general discussion".
Ah so you are fine with playing a game without black characters and the lack of representation of yourself doesn't bother you. This clearly contradicts what you wrote in the opening. I thought it bothered you at an emotional level:
"I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people."
This contradiction tells me you made a careless mistake, or as long as you get what you envisioned, you don't give care that much about inclusivity/diversity for the good of the game. Given the way you type/ respond to people though it's probably a mistake.
You don't have to re-explain what your main point is. It ain't rocket science.
I also think it's pretty safe to say most, if not all of us are fine with the game being diverse/inclusive. But whether your version matches with the developer's version is a different story. I'd rather trust in the vision of the developers over yours.
Let's get this out of the way. I'm black. I was born black, raised black, and I feel I will be black for quite some time. I love gaming and exploring new worlds and new stories in those games.
I have played only a handful of MMOs (BDO, ESO, GW1, GW2, Archeage, LOTRO) and only 1 has included a specific black ethnicity (ESO with Redguards) and 1 has a general human race with multiple ethnicities that you could create but can actually fit into a specific culture (GW2 with Elonans and Canthans).
Even GW2 stumbled at first because for 4 years after launch the only hair options for black characters was an afro, dreadlocks, and a bald head (tacky and lacks creativity). It was only when they geared up towards their Path of Fire release that they included more diverse hairstyles and I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.
I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people.
I am super excited to play Ashes but looking at the races it looks like there are 8 white races and 1 kind of culturally ambiguous race that is meant to be a catch all for "non-white". Is it a big ask to think outside of the box more to include more culturally diverse characters to allow more people to be able to see themselves represented in the game without being locked to one character race?
Like my main will be a dwarf for SURE. I have always loved dwarves. But why is there never any non-white dwarf races? Dwarves can be seen in mythology for cultures all around the world, not just in western Europe. Why do we keep clinging to these tropes? it is an honest question because this is something that serves as a barrier for immersion for myself and for many players of color. There are lots of cool stories there that are just waiting to be explored.
I look forward to the responses I will get and the sad thing is I am ready to be demeaned and the berated by people for asking something so simple lol.
I thought the orcs had Asian inspired architecture? Wood Elves are generally brown of skin, and the Tulnar are by no means white either. I hope you can find a race that speaks to you and you'll be happy with the character you make!
I think that every day we're coming on these forums to a thread asking about real world problems in Ashes. Racial diversity, sexual diversity and possibly any other politics that can be imagined.
I'm not trying to ignore real life issues or the reported discrimination against peoples of the world.
Ashes is just a game though, and that is how it should be. Every day the news reports the issues of the world. Every day I hear it all.
I play games like Ashes to escape that. I think we all do. So let's leave Ashes to be that escape from the real world.
Im sorry for anyone that faces discrimination in real life, but, and let's be honest here, no one at Intrepid has designed these races to be discriminatory.
Lets just all be gamers and have a politics free Ashes.
It is ignorant and naïve of you to say people play games to escape the problems of the world when a lot if problems in the world can be found in games as well. You have to look at things in a bigger picture and for POC, LGBTQ, alt lifestyle people to live in a world where they are not fairly represented and then in their form of escape (gaming) they face those same things. That is the world we love in and these games and stories are made/told by people who live in the real world and if they want their game to truly be an escape then they would at least consider that they have the power to provide a sense of inclusion in a game that is often sparse in the real world. They of course do not have to but they do themselves and their player base a disservice by not doing so. From what i have learned/researched today it seems as though AoC has taken that into consideration which means a lot to me.
Well of course some people play games to find the problems, but that is just modern PC politics. All it leads to is the knocking down of statues of someone who lived 200 years ago, or forced stories in culture in an effort to please everyone. There was a statue petitioned to be knocked down in Leeds, UK. It turned out the people petitioning were so ignorant that they had the wrong person. The statue was of the son, not the father. Did they back down? Did they heck. They got together and wracked their brains to find a reason to pull down the statue of the son. He was Robert Peel, the founder of the modern police force.
That is PC culture. At any length.
Like I say, I would love a world where all human beings are treated the same. I'd rather not force the issue either.
I do play games to escape all this. I also think 'why play a game set in a fantasy universe influenced by the middle ages' if we don't want to escape? Do we all secretly long to be dwarves and elves?
not going to go into politics but you named one instance in Leeds of people getting the wrong person, this does not negate the hundreds of statues that shouldn't be up. its not PC culture to cease idolizing/memorializing people who lived hateful lives or perpetuated genocide/massacre which is most often the case.
the failure to see the world from someone else's shoes is what causes these issues in the first place.
cheers matey.
Over analysing a very different past does not change the future.
Nor does forcing a race into a fantasy game to somewhat appease a group of people.
But hopefully you will get the ability to create a realistic black character. I think you might have to accept the races are as they are though.
Think yourself lucky the only black race is not EQs Erudites. Intellectual, better-than-thou magic users who moved to a far off island to concentrate on being better than everyone else.
One day the world will be a better place for all. Over analysing history is not going to do that though, only educating the future.
To help my fellow poster here what @nidriks is basically saying: "You shouldn't project your modern morals based on today's world to past morals and their own world". You should just look at moments/people in history as the product of their times. It's also important to remember them in order to recognize/ celebrate how far some civilizations have come, learned and continue to progress.
This is a far more reasonable way to look at history because people are a product of their place in history/environment/ genetics.
Figuratively and literally destroying the past is such a myopic-take, borderlining towards insanity. I doubt any of us would be such righteous figures had we been born in their world, their positions, their knowledge, and their way of life.
It's very easy, lazy, and intellectually dishonest to view us as somehow holier than them as if we wouldn't conform into their shoes, when most probably would.
If you, OP are going to lecture someone on looking at the bigger picture, maybe ya should probably not have such a shortsighted/ weak approach to history.
Lets just all be gamers and have a politics free Ashes.
Sorry, but that's not gonna happen. Culture has changed lately, for the worse, and it will naturally reflect every aspect of society, including gaming.
Hopefully we'll be able to easily mute/block people in-game who want to push their political agendas (whichever one that may be), but I wouldn't have high hopes.
I never felt excluded because the game didn't include my skin color or race of people. This idea seems very weak to me. I think people are stronger than that and I think OP you are stronger than that too. You shouldn't let some fantasy games make you feel uneasy because they didn't include your people. It's just fiction.
I also think it's fine if the 8 "white classes" are just that. That doesn't mean they are all the same or do not have cultural diversity. For example, Italians,Irish, the British, the French, Germans, and other Euroethnic races generally are considered white, but they culturally differ from each other.
There are 195 countries in the world with their own regions, including everyone would be impossible. Forced diversity is not diversity. It's the illusion of it.
However, we don't know much of the lore yet, if at all really. There isn't really much to go off of. I wouldn't want the lore/gameworld to change due to diversity/inclusion. It should fit the philosophy/scope of those in charge to build what they think is the best MMO experience.
Also let's be real man, these tulnar have been underground for God knows how long. They haven't seen sunlight in ages. If any ingame-race's skin color would be all white, it'd probably be them. Some of em do be reptiles and the like though.
well luckily it doesnt matter what you feel is "weak" lol. ive played many games without a single black character and loved it. the whole point if my original post is thinking outside of the box and building a CREATIVE and DIVERSE world to immerse myself into and not just making cookie cutter games.. no culture is a monolith and considering that makes for a better game to me. cheers!
You are being too shortsighted. It's not about what I think. It's about what you think (wrong btw since 2 people liked the post. If someone calls your idea weak maybe you should evaluate whether it is or not and provide a solid reason why it's stronger than mine. You are free to keep such fragile reasoning though man. I ain't bothered.
You should remember you posted under discussion, the place, where you know... ideas, opposing or agreeing, are exchanged. If you want a circle jerk, there's Reddit. Hopefully, no one is ignorant as to what a discussion is when one posts under "general discussion".
Ah so you are fine with playing a game without black characters and the lack of representation of yourself doesn't bother you. This clearly contradicts what you wrote in the opening. I thought it bothered you at an emotional level:
"I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people."
This contradiction tells me you made a careless mistake, or as long as you get what you envisioned, you don't give care that much about inclusivity/diversity for the good of the game. Given the way you type/ respond to people though it's probably a mistake.
You don't have to re-explain what your main point is. It ain't rocket science.
I also think it's pretty safe to say most, if not all of us are fine with the game being diverse/inclusive. But whether your version matches with the developer's version is a different story. I'd rather trust in the vision of the developers over yours.
TLDR.
Imagine coming to a forum to discuss with others and saying you're "looking forward to the responses". But you ignore most of my posts, if not all of them even though I tried to be somewhat thoughtful.
Yikes
But hey man, I didn't expect that much from someone like you. So all good bro.
3
Options
SquirrelTeamSixMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Let's get this out of the way. I'm black. I was born black, raised black, and I feel I will be black for quite some time. I love gaming and exploring new worlds and new stories in those games.
I have played only a handful of MMOs (BDO, ESO, GW1, GW2, Archeage, LOTRO) and only 1 has included a specific black ethnicity (ESO with Redguards) and 1 has a general human race with multiple ethnicities that you could create but can actually fit into a specific culture (GW2 with Elonans and Canthans).
Even GW2 stumbled at first because for 4 years after launch the only hair options for black characters was an afro, dreadlocks, and a bald head (tacky and lacks creativity). It was only when they geared up towards their Path of Fire release that they included more diverse hairstyles and I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.
I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people.
I am super excited to play Ashes but looking at the races it looks like there are 8 white races and 1 kind of culturally ambiguous race that is meant to be a catch all for "non-white". Is it a big ask to think outside of the box more to include more culturally diverse characters to allow more people to be able to see themselves represented in the game without being locked to one character race?
Like my main will be a dwarf for SURE. I have always loved dwarves. But why is there never any non-white dwarf races? Dwarves can be seen in mythology for cultures all around the world, not just in western Europe. Why do we keep clinging to these tropes? it is an honest question because this is something that serves as a barrier for immersion for myself and for many players of color. There are lots of cool stories there that are just waiting to be explored.
I look forward to the responses I will get and the sad thing is I am ready to be demeaned and the berated by people for asking something so simple lol.
So I have not read the responses to your post but I just wanted to put it out there for the devs to see that this is definitely something that needs to be addressed. Cultural diversity is one of the things that makes humans interesting imo, so it's a shame not to showcase it in games. GW2 I think did a great job showcasing this in PoF (a bit late but hey) and needs to improve in other areas as well beyond black.
I think the main issue is that most fantasy IS based in western Europe, and most of it is based on Tolkien's work who, while being born in South Africa, was raised and educated as an Englishman. With every fantasy series following in his footsteps you get Scottish dwarves, British whites, and so on.
In the defense of GW2 though the lore of Ascalon (you play as Ascalonians in GW1 and they are the ones who settled Kryta) historically is western European, but they include the other continents that provide that cultural diversity, which in a medieval setting was not entirely inaccurate. GW2 was also going to have a district in the human capital for Cantha and Elona originally but NCsoft allegedly made them scrap it for fear of it inciting offense due to Cantha being a boiled together version of most real Asian cultures.
Though Kryta in GW1 was actually a very tribal, almost Afrivan esque population prior to Ascalonians settling it
I think that every day we're coming on these forums to a thread asking about real world problems in Ashes. Racial diversity, sexual diversity and possibly any other politics that can be imagined.
I'm not trying to ignore real life issues or the reported discrimination against peoples of the world.
Ashes is just a game though, and that is how it should be. Every day the news reports the issues of the world. Every day I hear it all.
I play games like Ashes to escape that. I think we all do. So let's leave Ashes to be that escape from the real world.
Im sorry for anyone that faces discrimination in real life, but, and let's be honest here, no one at Intrepid has designed these races to be discriminatory.
Lets just all be gamers and have a politics free Ashes.
It is ignorant and naïve of you to say people play games to escape the problems of the world when a lot if problems in the world can be found in games as well. You have to look at things in a bigger picture and for POC, LGBTQ, alt lifestyle people to live in a world where they are not fairly represented and then in their form of escape (gaming) they face those same things. That is the world we love in and these games and stories are made/told by people who live in the real world and if they want their game to truly be an escape then they would at least consider that they have the power to provide a sense of inclusion in a game that is often sparse in the real world. They of course do not have to but they do themselves and their player base a disservice by not doing so. From what i have learned/researched today it seems as though AoC has taken that into consideration which means a lot to me.
Well of course some people play games to find the problems, but that is just modern PC politics. All it leads to is the knocking down of statues of someone who lived 200 years ago, or forced stories in culture in an effort to please everyone. There was a statue petitioned to be knocked down in Leeds, UK. It turned out the people petitioning were so ignorant that they had the wrong person. The statue was of the son, not the father. Did they back down? Did they heck. They got together and wracked their brains to find a reason to pull down the statue of the son. He was Robert Peel, the founder of the modern police force.
That is PC culture. At any length.
Like I say, I would love a world where all human beings are treated the same. I'd rather not force the issue either.
I do play games to escape all this. I also think 'why play a game set in a fantasy universe influenced by the middle ages' if we don't want to escape? Do we all secretly long to be dwarves and elves?
not going to go into politics but you named one instance in Leeds of people getting the wrong person, this does not negate the hundreds of statues that shouldn't be up. its not PC culture to cease idolizing/memorializing people who lived hateful lives or perpetuated genocide/massacre which is most often the case.
the failure to see the world from someone else's shoes is what causes these issues in the first place.
cheers matey.
Over analysing a very different past does not change the future.
Nor does forcing a race into a fantasy game to somewhat appease a group of people.
But hopefully you will get the ability to create a realistic black character. I think you might have to accept the races are as they are though.
Think yourself lucky the only black race is not EQs Erudites. Intellectual, better-than-thou magic users who moved to a far off island to concentrate on being better than everyone else.
One day the world will be a better place for all. Over analysing history is not going to do that though, only educating the future.
To help my fellow poster here what @nidriks is basically saying: "You shouldn't project your modern morals based on today's world to past morals and their own world". You should just look at moments/people in history as the product of their times. It's also important to remember them in order to recognize/ celebrate how far some civilizations have come, learned and continue to progress.
This is a far more reasonable way to look at history because people are a product of their place in history/environment/ genetics.
Figuratively and literally destroying the past is such a myopic-take, borderlining towards insanity. I doubt any of us would be such righteous figures had we been born in their world, their positions, their knowledge, and their way of life.
It's very easy, lazy, and intellectually dishonest to view us as somehow holier than them as if we wouldn't conform into their shoes, when most probably would.
If you, OP are going to lecture someone on looking at the bigger picture, maybe ya should probably not have such a shortsighted/ weak approach to history.
That pretty much boils it down, thank you @GodsThesis. That was a well written post.
Humanity will learn one day. I suspect I shall be long dead.
As long as I get to play Ashes first for many years. That's what we're all after at the end of the day.
0
Options
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I never felt excluded because the game didn't include my skin color or race of people. This idea seems very weak to me. I think people are stronger than that and I think OP you are stronger than that too. You shouldn't let some fantasy games make you feel uneasy because they didn't include your people. It's just fiction.
I also think it's fine if the 8 "white classes" are just that. That doesn't mean they are all the same or do not have cultural diversity. For example, Italians,Irish, the British, the French, Germans, and other Euroethnic races generally are considered white, but they culturally differ from each other.
There are 195 countries in the world with their own regions, including everyone would be impossible. Forced diversity is not diversity. It's the illusion of it.
However, we don't know much of the lore yet, if at all really. There isn't really much to go off of. I wouldn't want the lore/gameworld to change due to diversity/inclusion. It should fit the philosophy/scope of those in charge to build what they think is the best MMO experience.
Also let's be real man, these tulnar have been underground for God knows how long. They haven't seen sunlight in ages. If any ingame-race's skin color would be all white, it'd probably be them. Some of em do be reptiles and the like though.
well luckily it doesnt matter what you feel is "weak" lol. ive played many games without a single black character and loved it. the whole point if my original post is thinking outside of the box and building a CREATIVE and DIVERSE world to immerse myself into and not just making cookie cutter games.. no culture is a monolith and considering that makes for a better game to me. cheers!
You are being too shortsighted. It's not about what I think. It's about what you think (wrong btw since 2 people liked the post. If someone calls your idea weak maybe you should evaluate whether it is or not and provide a solid reason why it's stronger than mine. You are free to keep such fragile reasoning though man. I ain't bothered.
You should remember you posted under discussion, the place, where you know... ideas, opposing or agreeing, are exchanged. If you want a circle jerk, there's Reddit. Hopefully, no one is ignorant as to what a discussion is when one posts under "general discussion".
Ah so you are fine with playing a game without black characters and the lack of representation of yourself doesn't bother you. This clearly contradicts what you wrote in the opening. I thought it bothered you at an emotional level:
"I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people."
This contradiction tells me you made a careless mistake, or as long as you get what you envisioned, you don't give care that much about inclusivity/diversity for the good of the game. Given the way you type/ respond to people though it's probably a mistake.
You don't have to re-explain what your main point is. It ain't rocket science.
I also think it's pretty safe to say most, if not all of us are fine with the game being diverse/inclusive. But whether your version matches with the developer's version is a different story. I'd rather trust in the vision of the developers over yours.
TLDR.
And just like that you lost the crowd.
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
I never felt excluded because the game didn't include my skin color or race of people. This idea seems very weak to me. I think people are stronger than that and I think OP you are stronger than that too. You shouldn't let some fantasy games make you feel uneasy because they didn't include your people. It's just fiction.
I also think it's fine if the 8 "white classes" are just that. That doesn't mean they are all the same or do not have cultural diversity. For example, Italians,Irish, the British, the French, Germans, and other Euroethnic races generally are considered white, but they culturally differ from each other.
There are 195 countries in the world with their own regions, including everyone would be impossible. Forced diversity is not diversity. It's the illusion of it.
However, we don't know much of the lore yet, if at all really. There isn't really much to go off of. I wouldn't want the lore/gameworld to change due to diversity/inclusion. It should fit the philosophy/scope of those in charge to build what they think is the best MMO experience.
Also let's be real man, these tulnar have been underground for God knows how long. They haven't seen sunlight in ages. If any ingame-race's skin color would be all white, it'd probably be them. Some of em do be reptiles and the like though.
well luckily it doesnt matter what you feel is "weak" lol. ive played many games without a single black character and loved it. the whole point if my original post is thinking outside of the box and building a CREATIVE and DIVERSE world to immerse myself into and not just making cookie cutter games.. no culture is a monolith and considering that makes for a better game to me. cheers!
You are being too shortsighted. It's not about what I think. It's about what you think (wrong btw since 2 people liked the post. If someone calls your idea weak maybe you should evaluate whether it is or not and provide a solid reason why it's stronger than mine. You are free to keep such fragile reasoning though man. I ain't bothered.
You should remember you posted under discussion, the place, where you know... ideas, opposing or agreeing, are exchanged. If you want a circle jerk, there's Reddit. Hopefully, no one is ignorant as to what a discussion is when one posts under "general discussion".
Ah so you are fine with playing a game without black characters and the lack of representation of yourself doesn't bother you. This clearly contradicts what you wrote in the opening. I thought it bothered you at an emotional level:
"I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people."
This contradiction tells me you made a careless mistake, or as long as you get what you envisioned, you don't give care that much about inclusivity/diversity for the good of the game. Given the way you type/ respond to people though it's probably a mistake.
You don't have to re-explain what your main point is. It ain't rocket science.
I also think it's pretty safe to say most, if not all of us are fine with the game being diverse/inclusive. But whether your version matches with the developer's version is a different story. I'd rather trust in the vision of the developers over yours.
TLDR.
Imagine coming to a forum to discuss with others and saying you're "looking forward to the responses". But you ignore most of my posts, if not all of them even though I tried to be somewhat thoughtful.
Yikes
But hey man, I didn't expect that much from someone like you. So all good bro.
you aren't discussing the topic, you are trying to dismantle my opinion by calling it weak... no need for me to engage with that. period.
I think that every day we're coming on these forums to a thread asking about real world problems in Ashes. Racial diversity, sexual diversity and possibly any other politics that can be imagined.
I'm not trying to ignore real life issues or the reported discrimination against peoples of the world.
Ashes is just a game though, and that is how it should be. Every day the news reports the issues of the world. Every day I hear it all.
I play games like Ashes to escape that. I think we all do. So let's leave Ashes to be that escape from the real world.
Im sorry for anyone that faces discrimination in real life, but, and let's be honest here, no one at Intrepid has designed these races to be discriminatory.
Lets just all be gamers and have a politics free Ashes.
It is ignorant and naïve of you to say people play games to escape the problems of the world when a lot if problems in the world can be found in games as well. You have to look at things in a bigger picture and for POC, LGBTQ, alt lifestyle people to live in a world where they are not fairly represented and then in their form of escape (gaming) they face those same things. That is the world we love in and these games and stories are made/told by people who live in the real world and if they want their game to truly be an escape then they would at least consider that they have the power to provide a sense of inclusion in a game that is often sparse in the real world. They of course do not have to but they do themselves and their player base a disservice by not doing so. From what i have learned/researched today it seems as though AoC has taken that into consideration which means a lot to me.
Well of course some people play games to find the problems, but that is just modern PC politics. All it leads to is the knocking down of statues of someone who lived 200 years ago, or forced stories in culture in an effort to please everyone. There was a statue petitioned to be knocked down in Leeds, UK. It turned out the people petitioning were so ignorant that they had the wrong person. The statue was of the son, not the father. Did they back down? Did they heck. They got together and wracked their brains to find a reason to pull down the statue of the son. He was Robert Peel, the founder of the modern police force.
That is PC culture. At any length.
Like I say, I would love a world where all human beings are treated the same. I'd rather not force the issue either.
I do play games to escape all this. I also think 'why play a game set in a fantasy universe influenced by the middle ages' if we don't want to escape? Do we all secretly long to be dwarves and elves?
not going to go into politics but you named one instance in Leeds of people getting the wrong person, this does not negate the hundreds of statues that shouldn't be up. its not PC culture to cease idolizing/memorializing people who lived hateful lives or perpetuated genocide/massacre which is most often the case.
the failure to see the world from someone else's shoes is what causes these issues in the first place.
cheers matey.
Over analysing a very different past does not change the future.
Nor does forcing a race into a fantasy game to somewhat appease a group of people.
But hopefully you will get the ability to create a realistic black character. I think you might have to accept the races are as they are though.
Think yourself lucky the only black race is not EQs Erudites. Intellectual, better-than-thou magic users who moved to a far off island to concentrate on being better than everyone else.
One day the world will be a better place for all. Over analysing history is not going to do that though, only educating the future.
To help my fellow poster here what @nidriks is basically saying: "You shouldn't project your modern morals based on today's world to past morals and their own world". You should just look at moments/people in history as the product of their times. It's also important to remember them in order to recognize/ celebrate how far some civilizations have come, learned and continue to progress.
This is a far more reasonable way to look at history because people are a product of their place in history/environment/ genetics.
Figuratively and literally destroying the past is such a myopic-take, borderlining towards insanity. I doubt any of us would be such righteous figures had we been born in their world, their positions, their knowledge, and their way of life.
It's very easy, lazy, and intellectually dishonest to view us as somehow holier than them as if we wouldn't conform into their shoes, when most probably would.
If you, OP are going to lecture someone on looking at the bigger picture, maybe ya should probably not have such a shortsighted/ weak approach to history.
destroying a statue is not destroying the past. Germany does not celebrate Hitler but obviously they and much of the world is quite aware of their past. remembering historical figured and celebrating them are two different things. sweeping history under the rug is quite another, which is why it took the Watchmen HBO series for most people to even be aware of the Tulsa bombings...media can have a positive and informative impact.
"they were a product of their time" --- there were far more compassionate and worthy figures to celebrate from then. To say they were products of their time is folly as there were MANY people of the exact same era that did not perpetuate the same crimes.
Nah, the people who got my point got my point. There were people who didnt necessarily agree but i still found common ground with. then there are people who never agreed and never wanted to agree or find a common ground and that is a crowd i couldnt care less about.
0
Options
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Nah, the people who got my point got my point. There were people who didnt necessarily agree but i still found common ground with. then there are people who never agreed and never wanted to agree or find a common ground and that is a crowd i couldnt care less about.
If you say so.
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Let's get this out of the way. I'm black. I was born black, raised black, and I feel I will be black for quite some time. I love gaming and exploring new worlds and new stories in those games.
I have played only a handful of MMOs (BDO, ESO, GW1, GW2, Archeage, LOTRO) and only 1 has included a specific black ethnicity (ESO with Redguards) and 1 has a general human race with multiple ethnicities that you could create but can actually fit into a specific culture (GW2 with Elonans and Canthans).
Even GW2 stumbled at first because for 4 years after launch the only hair options for black characters was an afro, dreadlocks, and a bald head (tacky and lacks creativity). It was only when they geared up towards their Path of Fire release that they included more diverse hairstyles and I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.
I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people.
I am super excited to play Ashes but looking at the races it looks like there are 8 white races and 1 kind of culturally ambiguous race that is meant to be a catch all for "non-white". Is it a big ask to think outside of the box more to include more culturally diverse characters to allow more people to be able to see themselves represented in the game without being locked to one character race?
Like my main will be a dwarf for SURE. I have always loved dwarves. But why is there never any non-white dwarf races? Dwarves can be seen in mythology for cultures all around the world, not just in western Europe. Why do we keep clinging to these tropes? it is an honest question because this is something that serves as a barrier for immersion for myself and for many players of color. There are lots of cool stories there that are just waiting to be explored.
I look forward to the responses I will get and the sad thing is I am ready to be demeaned and the berated by people for asking something so simple lol.
First, no offense but don't begin sentences with the word, "like". It makes you look ignorant and cringe.
Second, I agree to a point. I DO NOT believe that all races should have a black, or brown option. I say that because it just reminds me of BF1 when they made black germans. It was just cringe and virtue signaling at it's worse.
For example, in all of the Elder Scrolls, all Redguards are dark, no pale skins there. It would seem off base if there was. Akin to this, having black high elves would be equally weird because they have mostly been pale skinned in most fantasy stories and books going back a long time. Dwarves shouldnt be a problem though, there are dark dwarves in a lot of fantasy genres.....
Am I trying to say fantasy games shouldn't be able to break legends, stories and typical genre by making black high elves? No...but I think it will have an effect on immersion if some "expected" race types are suddenly broken for no other reason than "diversity". Diversity and inclusion is almost reaching cult proportions these days with fanatical fervor sometimes. So I get what you're saying, but i dont want to turn character creation into some social experiment either.
There SHOULD BE some classes that are strictly pale in appearance. Inversely there SHOULD also be a race or races that are strictly non-pale....BUT make it so for the sake of the story and fantasy, not for the sake of politics and fanatical opinion.
I think that every day we're coming on these forums to a thread asking about real world problems in Ashes. Racial diversity, sexual diversity and possibly any other politics that can be imagined.
I'm not trying to ignore real life issues or the reported discrimination against peoples of the world.
Ashes is just a game though, and that is how it should be. Every day the news reports the issues of the world. Every day I hear it all.
I play games like Ashes to escape that. I think we all do. So let's leave Ashes to be that escape from the real world.
Im sorry for anyone that faces discrimination in real life, but, and let's be honest here, no one at Intrepid has designed these races to be discriminatory.
Lets just all be gamers and have a politics free Ashes.
It is ignorant and naïve of you to say people play games to escape the problems of the world when a lot if problems in the world can be found in games as well. You have to look at things in a bigger picture and for POC, LGBTQ, alt lifestyle people to live in a world where they are not fairly represented and then in their form of escape (gaming) they face those same things. That is the world we love in and these games and stories are made/told by people who live in the real world and if they want their game to truly be an escape then they would at least consider that they have the power to provide a sense of inclusion in a game that is often sparse in the real world. They of course do not have to but they do themselves and their player base a disservice by not doing so. From what i have learned/researched today it seems as though AoC has taken that into consideration which means a lot to me.
Well of course some people play games to find the problems, but that is just modern PC politics. All it leads to is the knocking down of statues of someone who lived 200 years ago, or forced stories in culture in an effort to please everyone. There was a statue petitioned to be knocked down in Leeds, UK. It turned out the people petitioning were so ignorant that they had the wrong person. The statue was of the son, not the father. Did they back down? Did they heck. They got together and wracked their brains to find a reason to pull down the statue of the son. He was Robert Peel, the founder of the modern police force.
That is PC culture. At any length.
Like I say, I would love a world where all human beings are treated the same. I'd rather not force the issue either.
I do play games to escape all this. I also think 'why play a game set in a fantasy universe influenced by the middle ages' if we don't want to escape? Do we all secretly long to be dwarves and elves?
not going to go into politics but you named one instance in Leeds of people getting the wrong person, this does not negate the hundreds of statues that shouldn't be up. its not PC culture to cease idolizing/memorializing people who lived hateful lives or perpetuated genocide/massacre which is most often the case.
the failure to see the world from someone else's shoes is what causes these issues in the first place.
cheers matey.
Over analysing a very different past does not change the future.
Nor does forcing a race into a fantasy game to somewhat appease a group of people.
But hopefully you will get the ability to create a realistic black character. I think you might have to accept the races are as they are though.
Think yourself lucky the only black race is not EQs Erudites. Intellectual, better-than-thou magic users who moved to a far off island to concentrate on being better than everyone else.
One day the world will be a better place for all. Over analysing history is not going to do that though, only educating the future.
To help my fellow poster here what @nidriks is basically saying: "You shouldn't project your modern morals based on today's world to past morals and their own world". You should just look at moments/people in history as the product of their times. It's also important to remember them in order to recognize/ celebrate how far some civilizations have come, learned and continue to progress.
This is a far more reasonable way to look at history because people are a product of their place in history/environment/ genetics.
Figuratively and literally destroying the past is such a myopic-take, borderlining towards insanity. I doubt any of us would be such righteous figures had we been born in their world, their positions, their knowledge, and their way of life.
It's very easy, lazy, and intellectually dishonest to view us as somehow holier than them as if we wouldn't conform into their shoes, when most probably would.
If you, OP are going to lecture someone on looking at the bigger picture, maybe ya should probably not have such a shortsighted/ weak approach to history.
destroying a statue is not destroying the past. Germany does not celebrate Hitler but obviously they and much of the world is quite aware of their past. remembering historical figured and celebrating them are two different things. sweeping history under the rug is quite another, which is why it took the Watchmen HBO series for most people to even be aware of the Tulsa bombings...media can have a positive and informative impact.
"they were a product of their time" --- there were far more compassionate and worthy figures to celebrate from then. To say they were products of their time is folly as there were MANY people of the exact same era that did not perpetuate the same crimes.
Name me three more worthy figures from the 18th and 19th century to put up statues of? Remember the Leeds saga I told you of? The one where people wanted to tear down the statue of Robert Peel - the founder of the modern police force - because his papa was a colonialist. The guys that, once told they had the wrong person, decided to find a reason to remove the statue of younge Robert.
Remember the bit where you were told that that era of history was very different to ours.
But, of course, condemning the actions of a man who died 200 years ago is going to stop discrimination in 2020.
I feel there is a going around of circles developing here...
For what it is worth, your desires in the your op were worthy. It'd be lovely if every single personw as made to feel they could be the character of their choice, down to the nitty gritty. There is a limit to what you can include in a game. As others have said fantasy derives chiefly from the works of Tolkein.
I would even go so far as to thinking that including a black race such as Redguard could even be derogatory to some. Redguard are rather stereotyped in my opinion. Where as if you give players the option to pick a race in which they can then shape their avatar to be of any skin colour or ethnicity they are not stereotyped into a role.
Maybe I'm wrong but I liken it to an early episode of TNG in which the Enterprises visited a race of African themed aliens. It's a terribly stereotypical episode of Star Trek.
Maybe I'm seeing things wrong. I am after all a white male who grew up in a certain time in an area of the UK that was very, very white. I can't profess to see things the way someone who feels they have been discriminated against their whole life does, and simply because of their colour or race. I have known people that have faced that, but one of those persons in particular I respected greatly because they had come through that and faced it. They were even able to joke lightheartedly about it.
I just don't see that over analysing the past changes what is prevalent in human culture. How far do we go back before we say human actions were not relevant? Do we ban statues of David because roman history was replete with slavery?
Education is where it's at. Educate our young to desire a more tolerant society. Explain the past to the them, but destroying it and forgetting it won't make it not have happened.
Comments
ah for sure... i knew this post would get out of hand and people would immediately get defensive lol.
i never said devs are racist, simply expressed my experience with MMOs and people fall over themselves going crazy and talking about BLM and ANTIFA *shrugs*... thank you for your feedback though, you had some valuable input and I appreciate you
Ah no problem.
I wouldnt sweat it dude, when this topic comes up sometimes people take it as an attack. Its not your fault, asking if the game will have diverse options is totally cool and in a project this exciting with this unique design its not surprising at all to want to know if you can project your image ingame or if there's a race/city/religion close to what you're trying to build your characters around.
I guess current political events have people
on edge for different reasons and your question would have probably been taken differently if it werent for the current climate. I would just suggest calm patience with this since emotions with people are high all around.
Hope to see you ingame!
Well of course some people play games to find the problems, but that is just modern PC politics. All it leads to is the knocking down of statues of someone who lived 200 years ago, or forced stories in culture in an effort to please everyone. There was a statue petitioned to be knocked down in Leeds, UK. It turned out the people petitioning were so ignorant that they had the wrong person. The statue was of the son, not the father. Did they back down? Did they heck. They got together and wracked their brains to find a reason to pull down the statue of the son. He was Robert Peel, the founder of the modern police force.
That is PC culture. At any length.
Like I say, I would love a world where all human beings are treated the same. I'd rather not force the issue either.
I do play games to escape all this. I also think 'why play a game set in a fantasy universe influenced by the middle ages' if we don't want to escape? Do we all secretly long to be dwarves and elves?
Well, I don't really care what color your skin is or anything about your genetics; you are a soul and have a body. You're a human being.
Short answer: We don't "cling to these tropes," we play games that include them. They were invented in the mythologies of (predominantly) Norse legends, those were a certain race of men. For brevity, I won't explain further regarding skin color, I hope that's obvious. But you know this.
If skin-shade sliders are not enough for you, then what I think you require is lore. It's a good thing to ask of them, I'm not denouncing you or the asking in any way. But you need Intrepid to create lore, as Bethesda did with the Redguards. And in the case that they don not. (though I'm sure they have capable professionals), why not write your own and post it? Give some fuel. In other words, make it real in the game by your actions. Do it yourself.
Cheers.
Howdy! I do write stories for all my characters when I play MMOs. That is part of enjoying the game for me. But me creating my own culture and player race/people wouldnt be fitting in the world of ashes of creation. a couple of posters pointed me in the right direction and i do see Ashes will be a very diverse and rich game in terms of culture and irl influence and i look forward to that
not going to go into politics but you named one instance in Leeds of people getting the wrong person, this does not negate the hundreds of statues that shouldn't be up. its not PC culture to cease idolizing/memorializing people who lived hateful lives or perpetuated genocide/massacre which is most often the case.
the failure to see the world from someone else's shoes is what causes these issues in the first place.
cheers matey.
Actually I don't watch any Main Stream media, at all. I watch independent journalists on a variety of sites. People who don't have an agenda and just point out the facts. Sorry the facts don't care about your feelings.
As I said. It's the Developers game. If you don't like it, don't pay to play it. Simple as that. If they see a significant drop in Subs over an issue I am sure they will address it if they feel it is important enough. Seems to be all Wow does these days.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
Over analysing a very different past does not change the future.
Nor does forcing a race into a fantasy game to somewhat appease a group of people.
But hopefully you will get the ability to create a realistic black character. I think you might have to accept the races are as they are though.
Think yourself lucky the only black race is not EQs Erudites. Intellectual, better-than-thou magic users who moved to a far off island to concentrate on being better than everyone else.
One day the world will be a better place for all. Over analysing history is not going to do that though, only educating the future.
You are being too shortsighted. It's not about what I think. It's about what you think (wrong btw since 2 people liked the post. If someone calls your idea weak maybe you should evaluate whether it is or not and provide a solid reason why it's stronger than mine. You are free to keep such fragile reasoning though man. I ain't bothered.
You should remember you posted under discussion, the place, where you know... ideas, opposing or agreeing, are exchanged. If you want a circle jerk, there's Reddit. Hopefully, no one is ignorant as to what a discussion is when one posts under "general discussion".
Ah so you are fine with playing a game without black characters and the lack of representation of yourself doesn't bother you. This clearly contradicts what you wrote in the opening. I thought it bothered you at an emotional level:
This contradiction tells me you made a careless mistake, or as long as you get what you envisioned, you don't give care that much about inclusivity/diversity for the good of the game. Given the way you type/ respond to people though it's probably a mistake.
You don't have to re-explain what your main point is. It ain't rocket science.
I also think it's pretty safe to say most, if not all of us are fine with the game being diverse/inclusive. But whether your version matches with the developer's version is a different story. I'd rather trust in the vision of the developers over yours.
TLDR.
I thought the orcs had Asian inspired architecture? Wood Elves are generally brown of skin, and the Tulnar are by no means white either. I hope you can find a race that speaks to you and you'll be happy with the character you make!
To help my fellow poster here what @nidriks is basically saying: "You shouldn't project your modern morals based on today's world to past morals and their own world". You should just look at moments/people in history as the product of their times. It's also important to remember them in order to recognize/ celebrate how far some civilizations have come, learned and continue to progress.
This is a far more reasonable way to look at history because people are a product of their place in history/environment/ genetics.
Figuratively and literally destroying the past is such a myopic-take, borderlining towards insanity. I doubt any of us would be such righteous figures had we been born in their world, their positions, their knowledge, and their way of life.
It's very easy, lazy, and intellectually dishonest to view us as somehow holier than them as if we wouldn't conform into their shoes, when most probably would.
If you, OP are going to lecture someone on looking at the bigger picture, maybe ya should probably not have such a shortsighted/ weak approach to history.
Sorry, but that's not gonna happen. Culture has changed lately, for the worse, and it will naturally reflect every aspect of society, including gaming.
Hopefully we'll be able to easily mute/block people in-game who want to push their political agendas (whichever one that may be), but I wouldn't have high hopes.
Imagine coming to a forum to discuss with others and saying you're "looking forward to the responses". But you ignore most of my posts, if not all of them even though I tried to be somewhat thoughtful.
Yikes
But hey man, I didn't expect that much from someone like you. So all good bro.
So I have not read the responses to your post but I just wanted to put it out there for the devs to see that this is definitely something that needs to be addressed. Cultural diversity is one of the things that makes humans interesting imo, so it's a shame not to showcase it in games. GW2 I think did a great job showcasing this in PoF (a bit late but hey) and needs to improve in other areas as well beyond black.
I think the main issue is that most fantasy IS based in western Europe, and most of it is based on Tolkien's work who, while being born in South Africa, was raised and educated as an Englishman. With every fantasy series following in his footsteps you get Scottish dwarves, British whites, and so on.
In the defense of GW2 though the lore of Ascalon (you play as Ascalonians in GW1 and they are the ones who settled Kryta) historically is western European, but they include the other continents that provide that cultural diversity, which in a medieval setting was not entirely inaccurate. GW2 was also going to have a district in the human capital for Cantha and Elona originally but NCsoft allegedly made them scrap it for fear of it inciting offense due to Cantha being a boiled together version of most real Asian cultures.
Though Kryta in GW1 was actually a very tribal, almost Afrivan esque population prior to Ascalonians settling it
That pretty much boils it down, thank you @GodsThesis. That was a well written post.
Humanity will learn one day. I suspect I shall be long dead.
As long as I get to play Ashes first for many years. That's what we're all after at the end of the day.
And just like that you lost the crowd.
you aren't discussing the topic, you are trying to dismantle my opinion by calling it weak... no need for me to engage with that. period.
destroying a statue is not destroying the past. Germany does not celebrate Hitler but obviously they and much of the world is quite aware of their past. remembering historical figured and celebrating them are two different things. sweeping history under the rug is quite another, which is why it took the Watchmen HBO series for most people to even be aware of the Tulsa bombings...media can have a positive and informative impact.
"they were a product of their time" --- there were far more compassionate and worthy figures to celebrate from then. To say they were products of their time is folly as there were MANY people of the exact same era that did not perpetuate the same crimes.
Nah, the people who got my point got my point. There were people who didnt necessarily agree but i still found common ground with. then there are people who never agreed and never wanted to agree or find a common ground and that is a crowd i couldnt care less about.
If you say so.
Races/cultures that are based of the real world will only lead to "this is a discrimminating stereotype" for people who love to complain.
First, no offense but don't begin sentences with the word, "like". It makes you look ignorant and cringe.
Second, I agree to a point. I DO NOT believe that all races should have a black, or brown option. I say that because it just reminds me of BF1 when they made black germans. It was just cringe and virtue signaling at it's worse.
For example, in all of the Elder Scrolls, all Redguards are dark, no pale skins there. It would seem off base if there was. Akin to this, having black high elves would be equally weird because they have mostly been pale skinned in most fantasy stories and books going back a long time. Dwarves shouldnt be a problem though, there are dark dwarves in a lot of fantasy genres.....
Am I trying to say fantasy games shouldn't be able to break legends, stories and typical genre by making black high elves? No...but I think it will have an effect on immersion if some "expected" race types are suddenly broken for no other reason than "diversity". Diversity and inclusion is almost reaching cult proportions these days with fanatical fervor sometimes. So I get what you're saying, but i dont want to turn character creation into some social experiment either.
There SHOULD BE some classes that are strictly pale in appearance. Inversely there SHOULD also be a race or races that are strictly non-pale....BUT make it so for the sake of the story and fantasy, not for the sake of politics and fanatical opinion.
Just my 2 cents.
Name me three more worthy figures from the 18th and 19th century to put up statues of? Remember the Leeds saga I told you of? The one where people wanted to tear down the statue of Robert Peel - the founder of the modern police force - because his papa was a colonialist. The guys that, once told they had the wrong person, decided to find a reason to remove the statue of younge Robert.
Remember the bit where you were told that that era of history was very different to ours.
But, of course, condemning the actions of a man who died 200 years ago is going to stop discrimination in 2020.
I feel there is a going around of circles developing here...
For what it is worth, your desires in the your op were worthy. It'd be lovely if every single personw as made to feel they could be the character of their choice, down to the nitty gritty. There is a limit to what you can include in a game. As others have said fantasy derives chiefly from the works of Tolkein.
I would even go so far as to thinking that including a black race such as Redguard could even be derogatory to some. Redguard are rather stereotyped in my opinion. Where as if you give players the option to pick a race in which they can then shape their avatar to be of any skin colour or ethnicity they are not stereotyped into a role.
Maybe I'm wrong but I liken it to an early episode of TNG in which the Enterprises visited a race of African themed aliens. It's a terribly stereotypical episode of Star Trek.
Maybe I'm seeing things wrong. I am after all a white male who grew up in a certain time in an area of the UK that was very, very white. I can't profess to see things the way someone who feels they have been discriminated against their whole life does, and simply because of their colour or race. I have known people that have faced that, but one of those persons in particular I respected greatly because they had come through that and faced it. They were even able to joke lightheartedly about it.
I just don't see that over analysing the past changes what is prevalent in human culture. How far do we go back before we say human actions were not relevant? Do we ban statues of David because roman history was replete with slavery?
Education is where it's at. Educate our young to desire a more tolerant society. Explain the past to the them, but destroying it and forgetting it won't make it not have happened.