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Do NOT add the airship...

XyphienXyphien Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
1200px-map2.jpg


This is the map of Verra, and you're probably asking yourself. Xyphien, what the heck man. This doesn't have to do anything with an airship, and why did you capitalize the NOT??? Well person who might have actually been thinking that but if you weren't you're now thinking it because your using the voice in your head to read this, the map has a huge part of why an Airship will ruin the game...

The map has two main continents, they are not connected, conjoined, or have any way to get to one or the other without either air or water travel. On top of that there are several islands that are the same thing. Air and Water travel are limited to the 5-15 ish people in the server that will have a flying mount, and those who use naval ships to get from one place to another. On top of this we know that resources will be placed in areas that make since, and the game itself will be based around economy, and resources to advance in the game.



eqAP3Vh.png

Ignoring the very crude paint strokes, the red X will indicate a rare resource that only spawns in the snow biome in the world. This could be caused from the cold effecting the materials naturally found in the mountain to create an ore that we're only able to get in that area, to something else completely. Nonetheless, this is one of the only places to find it.

This means you will have to travel either to the western edge to then ship it all the way around to the other continent as depicted in the image below:
cu5oggq.png


OR you will have to get a caravan and take it to the eastern edge and ship it shorter across the area as depicted in the image below:
3oCF5rp.png

This means you will either have to have a large guild that can do this, or more likely hire someone to pick up your goods and ship them all the way over to the other continent, to then get a caravan and hire mercenaries to protect you all the way to the area you're getting to. OR you will have to hire a caravan, take it over to the edge, hire a ship to take it over to the other continent to hire another caravan and move it to your location.

Regardless of the case you're one, funding other guilds and peoples business in the game, advancing the economy, as well as THEN supplying that second continent materials it does not naturally have. This means that the economy will greatly flourish because of this.

Now, picture this but for every resource that is only in one area of the map. If it's on a single island, or other things. You have to do a lot of stuff in order to transport these things across the world, the pricing of them will change depending on how many people are doing it, business will start up around those areas and it could turn into the equivalent of an american gold rush instead of the fact that these materials may not run out.

Now... Let's bring in the airship theory. There's 2 metros in the game (in this hypothetical) one on each continent, let's be honest if you want two science metros you'll try your best to ensure this happens so it will happen on at least one server. Now, let's add the airship theory. All of that hard work, all of the different localized prices for that resource and everything else will go out the window and here's why.

kzhWI0E.png


It's a simple straight shot from one to the other. You go, mine the resource, go back, sell it. There's no longer risk versus reward that the game boasts about. There's no merchant ships hiring mercenaries to protect them, people risking everything in caravans, no one to raid it, pirate it, or any gameplay everyone wants in the game anymore. It's just an automated system taking everything from one place to the other, and again, and again.

This will topple the economy, it will make resources so predominant in game as it will be the best and really only way people will travel. There's only one real use for caravans at that point, and that's to take the goods to a neighboring economy node. That's it.



Family fast travel's kind of the same thing, it can be exploited, even with precautions. But that's for another overly long post.

This post has been made by #antifasttravelgang. And supported by Knights of Ember.
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Comments

  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think you just proved why the air ship is a good idea
  • XyphienXyphien Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Aardvark wrote: »
    I think you just proved why the air ship is a good idea

    How would that be a good idea? How would removing all of the game play they've added and all of the risk versus reward this game stands for be a good idea? That's so much content being practically useless because of airships.
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited August 2020
    You make a point, but its easy to prevent this. They just need to make it so that you cannot enter an air ship if you carry any/too many resources, and boom, problem solved.
  • I havent played a whole lot of games with flying in them, but i can say for sure that flying killed world pvp in world of warcraft and it broke rust in a way that you could go from being freshly spawned in to end game geared in a few minutes. Its just a convenience thing that allows people to skip encounters and have an easy time.
  • mikechellamikechella Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    You make a point but its easy to prevent this. They just need to make it so that you cannot enter an air ship if you carry any/too many resources and problem solved.

    No checked baggage and your carry on items must fit into the overhead bins.
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    mikechella wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    You make a point but its easy to prevent this. They just need to make it so that you cannot enter an air ship if you carry any/too many resources and problem solved.

    No checked baggage and your carry on items must fit into the overhead bins.

    just give us a home stone with a 1 hr cool down :P
  • AmelAmel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    what?
  • CaptnChuck wrote: »
    You make a point but its easy to prevent this. They just need to make it so that you cannot enter an air ship if you carry any/too many resources and problem solved.

    I'm also Knights of Ember, and while I see the points OP is making, I would agree to the above limitation. If the game is built around an inherent difficulty (both from pve and pvp) in transporting goods over long distances, then that should be reflected across the game. To make it like the zeppelins of wow, but you can haul a caravan's worth of goods, would very significantly impact the economy, and basically make ship travel almost uneccessary.

    But if travel in Ashes worked as the quote above, where you can only travel with what you can personally carry, then I think it would be a great addition. It makes it easier to get to areas that were previously only accessible by ship, but you still have to set up a caravan and stuff when you get there and ship the goods back.

    And if of course they allowed you to have your own personal airship for any reason? That would just be dumb.
  • I agree on this, Xyphien.

    For me I would love to have to travel to find the resources I need for my artisan class.

    For example: I need a material thats on the other continent or side of the map, then I have to get a "shitty job" and start selling crap to save some money just so I can travel to a place where the resources are great for me and I can flourish on my profession, staying there or returning to my home with the riches from distant lands. Real in-game hustle.

    I know a lot of people want things in their doorstep, not me.
    I want hardship and overcoming. Thats a lot of hours of fun gameplay.
  • RatbossRatboss Member
    edited August 2020
    Xyphien im with you bro this is a bad idea
  • ExhilirateExhilirate Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Interesting points! My first kick reactions was "but seeing airships in the sky would be awesome!", but yes keeping the risk vs reward is much more important. Like a lot of people have said already, there has to be limitations on weight/inventory space or it will definitely make people null other sorts of travel. I checked the AoC wiki and there's not much information on how they plan to implement the whole system:
    "This will allow Citizens and Vassals of Scientific Metropolises to do things more quickly than others, as fast travel is limited in the world of Ashes of Creation. They’ll be able to exchange goods and information with ease and get to locations in the world at a quicker speed in order to gather crafting materials to create recipes, as well as participate in limited-time events."
    Clicking "Airships" doesn't lead to it's own page.
    One thing I was thinking of was to add a long wait time and scheduling system (like in Maplestory maybe 10 years ago) where you would have to wait some hours on the ship to even get to the destination, and make it so you can only ride once a day on a cooldown. Just some thoughts, interested to see other thoughts and how they'll tackle it!
    And maybe someday: Monster Airship attacks?
    jwUwJH.png
    find me at daylightbreakfast.tv!
  • You forgot to think that WHAT IF a server decide to have 2 metro-eco node .... at the very same continent.
  • Airships would be nice to have at least as a cosmetic feature in the world
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Would rather have airships as the scientific superpower than a ray gun.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • vhbeninvhbenin Member
    edited August 2020
    Airships will be resource limited/locked this was confirmed by Jahlon i believe.

    On the family summoning just make cd on family change and exclusivity on the family circles. And make shared cd's between summoner and summonee.

    Edit: on exclusivity i mean, make, for example Player A and Player B be from the same circle exclusively.

    Meaning that Player A + B + 6 other players are a circle, instead of player A is part of player B circle and Player B is part of player C circle... and so on
  • WarthWarth Member
    edited August 2020
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    You make a point, but its easy to prevent this. They just need to make it so that you cannot enter an air ship if you carry any/too many resources, and boom, problem solved.

    Agreed. There should not be ANY fast travel functionality for resources in the game. Metro or not.
    vhbenin wrote: »
    Airships will be resource limited/locked this was confirmed by Jahlon i believe.

    On the family summoning just make cd on family change and exclusivity on the family circles. And make shared cd's between summoner and summonee.

    I've also seen a steven quote where he mentions that Familiy Summons will only work when the summonee has limited resources in his inventory.

    Even though i don't think that's enough. Both Summoner and Summonee should have to be within the walls of a Node.
  • spiritswithinspiritswithin Member
    edited August 2020
    Bro its confirm that you can only bring ur backpack and not caravans or mules in the airship, its just a means of faster travel and nothing else. And would you really hire a caravans worth of "inventory players" than just doing caravan itself? remember mules is 10x more storage than ur backpack and caravans are 10x more than mules so thats a huge player base if ur going to do that lol
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    It is between 2 of the same type nodes. There may only be 1 on a server or both might end up on the same continent.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • nidriksnidriks Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter
    Steven has already said Ashes will include no fast travel. I believe that includes airships.

    You're going to have to rely on shank's pony and a boat.

    I, for one, am very happy.

    Saying that, I see no reason why there can't be a ferry between continents. Just make people get to the ferry the old fashioned way. Everquest had boats and they were great. They travelled the oceans real time and stopped at remote islands. You could have something like this:

    NVlGsb8.png

    The red dots are ports and the yellow/orange dots are landings. The ferries travel the route marked by the dashes. The ferries go from red dot to red dot and stop at the yellow dots.

    You'll pay a fare to use the ferries and will pay a carriage fee for goods. How much the ferries can carry will also be limited. This will provide a way to move about, without the use of your own boat, and will also inhibit fast travel and easy movement of resources. Firstly, it's pricey to get your goods aboard and, secondly, these ferries are slow. Much slower than a player made boat.

    There is also nothing to say that PvP will not happen on a ferry. You could be travelling the ocean real time and get jumped.

    You could even go so far as to add cabins to keep yourself safe from PvP, but they will be super pricey, and only for the wealthy.

    It's a compromise, is the way I see it. I loved the boats in EQ. I don't think they made travel insignificant. They were too slow for that, and you still had to get to the dock.

    I want this game to be hardcore, but I'm not against adding things like ferries to make the world feel alive.

    Also, does anyone notice how the map is just Europe and Russia "roughened up"? Sure it's been said before. No reason not to have inspiration.

    jEpDtMX.png



  • According to your map, my guess is Asia/Australia is underground.
  • XyphienXyphien Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    nidriks wrote: »
    Steven has already said Ashes will include no fast travel. I believe that includes airships.

    OstXOGD.png


    Bro its confirm that you can only bring ur backpack and not caravans or mules in the airship, its just a means of faster travel and nothing else. And would you really hire a caravans worth of "inventory players" than just doing caravan itself? remember mules is 10x more storage than ur backpack and caravans are 10x more than mules so thats a huge player base if ur going to do that lol
    You say this, but where's your source?
    vhbenin wrote: »
    Airships will be resource limited/locked this was confirmed by Jahlon i believe.

    I may be wrong, but isn't Jahlon the guy that owns Ashes101 and not an official dev, does he have a source as well? I'd be interested in seeing how he confirmed it.
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    You make a point, but its easy to prevent this. They just need to make it so that you cannot enter an air ship if you carry any/too many resources, and boom, problem solved.
    If this is the case I can agree slightly with it. I still am against all forms of fast travel, family, science nodes, etc. but if they have enough restrictions and ensure it cannot be exploited I guess it'll be good enough.
  • ZhabZhab Member
    edited August 2020
    EmoNagger wrote: »
    You forgot to think that WHAT IF a server decide to have 2 metro-eco node .... at the very same continent.
    I feel like everyone glossed over this real hard. A reminder...

    https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2019-05-32-know-your-nodes-economic-node-type

    ECONOMIC SUPERPOWER - LINKED ECONOMY
    Economic Nodes that have reached the Metropolis Stage unlock the Superpower “Linked Economy”. Any Economic Node with this Superpower unlocked shares Auction House listings with all the others, meaning that the items listed in one Linked Economy Node can be bid on from any other Linked Economy Node. Linked Economies also connect a Metropolis and any Vassal Economic Nodes belonging to that Metropolis.

    The Linked Economy Superpower has the potential to create a massive market that spans the world. This will allow players to attain and sell goods with ease, providing those who have access to these Economic Nodes a faster path to fortune in the lands of Ashes of Creation.

    Judging by what other people are saying, it seems like what you get to carry on airships is very limited. If that is true... Never mind airship and scientific metropolis. Seems to me like what you should be worried about are economic metropolis. Get your stuff to any eco node that is vassal of the eco metropolis and you get to list your stuff in the auction house. Which can then be bid on from any nodes which is vassal to any metropolis eco nodes.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Fist: You dont know where the scientific nodes will spawn and if two will even get to become Metros.

    Second: Its ONLY accessible for citizens of those two nodes or their vassals.

    Third: Scientific nodes are focused on crafting where such a thing will be immensely helpfull if you dont want to risk the chance of getting ganked while tracking through two continents just to get one specific resource.

    Fourth: Airships wont let you transport more then your own character can carry. They are not sky caravans. They are a mode of transport for citizens. A single person wont be enough to transport more then he would need for his own use. Even if you started a merchant company, we dont know how FAST the airship will travel. It could be that it moves in regular circles without "teleporting" like in WoW. It would then not really be ridiculously profitable, but just profitable for the time you invested in standing there AFK.
    roaaztC.gif
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    As pointed out above, scientific nodes will have fast travel. However, such fast travel is limited to nodes within the influence of the scientific node. The maximum area of influence for a node is 20% of the map for a metropolis.

    Two separate scientific nodes on opposite sides of the map cannot share fast travel as they are not part of the same area of influence. They are separate groups.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    As pointed out above, scientific nodes will have fast travel. However, such fast travel is limited to nodes within the influence of the scientific node. The maximum area of influence for a node is 20% of the map for a metropolis.

    Two separate scientific nodes on opposite sides of the map cannot share fast travel as they are not part of the same area of influence. They are separate groups.

    Two scientific metropolis can build an airship connection.

    If there are multiple scientific metropolises, then an airship will provide faster travel between those scientific metropolises for citizens of those nodes and their vassal nodes, so long as the metropolises are not at war.



    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Public_transportation#Faster_travel
    roaaztC.gif
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Damokles wrote: »
    Two scientific metropolis can build an airship connection.

    If there are multiple scientific metropolises, then an airship will provide faster travel between those scientific metropolises for citizens of those nodes and their vassal nodes, so long as the metropolises are not at war.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Public_transportation#Faster_travel

    Ok, good to know. I guess that it would be possible for a server to focus on scientific nodes and essentially eliminate the no fast travel. I am in favor of that option being removed as well.

  • spiritswithinspiritswithin Member
    edited August 2020
    Bro its confirm that you can only bring ur backpack and not caravans or mules in the airship, its just a means of faster travel and nothing else. And would you really hire a caravans worth of "inventory players" than just doing caravan itself? remember mules is 10x more storage than ur backpack and caravans are 10x more than mules so thats a huge player base if ur going to do that lol
    You say this, but where's your source?

    Jahlon is my source hes been following aoc for a long time now and hes been asking steven himself the ceo with questions about the game and already interviewed the guy on stream you can ask him yourself here at the forums heres the link https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/42174/you-got-questions-we-got-answers#latest

    Or watch hes youtube vids on "Paradox Gaming Network"

  • XyphienXyphien Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Zhab wrote: »
    EmoNagger wrote: »
    You forgot to think that WHAT IF a server decide to have 2 metro-eco node .... at the very same continent.
    I feel like everyone glossed over this real hard. A reminder...

    https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2019-05-32-know-your-nodes-economic-node-type

    ECONOMIC SUPERPOWER - LINKED ECONOMY
    Economic Nodes that have reached the Metropolis Stage unlock the Superpower “Linked Economy”. Any Economic Node with this Superpower unlocked shares Auction House listings with all the others, meaning that the items listed in one Linked Economy Node can be bid on from any other Linked Economy Node. Linked Economies also connect a Metropolis and any Vassal Economic Nodes belonging to that Metropolis.

    The Linked Economy Superpower has the potential to create a massive market that spans the world. This will allow players to attain and sell goods with ease, providing those who have access to these Economic Nodes a faster path to fortune in the lands of Ashes of Creation.

    Judging by what other people are saying, it seems like what you get to carry on airships is very limited. If that is true... Never mind airship and scientific metropolis. Seems to me like what you should be worried about are economic metropolis. Get your stuff to any eco node that is vassal of the eco metropolis and you get to list your stuff in the auction house. Which can then be bid on from any nodes which is vassal to any metropolis eco nodes.

    Yeah, that's extremely broken too. It seems like they're taking the metros and pretty much saying let's forget everything we've been harping on.
    Damokles wrote: »
    Fist: You dont know where the scientific nodes will spawn and if two will even get to become Metros.

    Nodes don't 'spawn' they are static and are the same on every server. Now, those may not be activated however.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Xyphien wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    Fist: You dont know where the scientific nodes will spawn and if two will even get to become Metros.

    Nodes don't 'spawn' they are static and are the same on every server. Now, those may not be activated however.

    I know that they dont "spawn", but I was talking about the fact that they have most likely not even begun to place nodes on the map etc.
    roaaztC.gif
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 2020
    Zhab wrote: »
    Judging by what other people are saying, it seems like what you get to carry on airships is very limited. If that is true... Never mind airship and scientific metropolis. Seems to me like what you should be worried about are economic metropolis. Get your stuff to any eco node that is vassal of the eco metropolis and you get to list your stuff in the auction house. Which can then be bid on from any nodes which is vassal to any metropolis eco nodes.

    Economic nodes will have the same problems as global auction houses from other games. When you make a post, your competing with everyone else that posts in the in the economic node. That can be up to 20% of the world that you are competing with. The way to make sales is to undercut the most recently placed items. Many items have so much supply that they become worthless.

    Essentially, the value created by moving items a long distance from where it is gathered is eroded, possibly to the point of becoming worthless. Hopefully, this won't happen as much with the regional economic system being put into place everywhere else.
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