Dev Discussion #21 - Quest Breadcrumbs

loghan

Thank god this thread is done. Every day seeing the word "Breadcrumbs" filling up my notification window was driving me to insanity! I'll never want to eat another piece of bread ever again! Not even a crumb! *says this while eating a sandwich*

Half Tilt Gamer

I like the idea of giving direction or location through the quest dialog. If being sent to a location, give a named location for the rough area and/or a direction of travel. If being sent to another NPC, give the name of the NPC and a general sense of where this NPC exists.
I'm not opposed to Icons over NPC heads but a ping on the map takes away from how immersive the experience can be.

Frassle

To have breadcrumbs or not seems a little black and white, especially for Ashes! I think, like other parts of the game, the difficulty and reward that it gives should dictate what type of breadcrumb is there during the quest. Early leveling quests might be easier to locate objectives while late game, high reward quests should have very minimal information that may also require some critical thinking to accomplish.

I feel like currently I just mindlessly complete quests in order to get to more content instead of quests being actual content or even giving useful rewards.

Billzbub

An interesting idea would be to have an Adventurers' Guild where you could visit it and read a bulletin board that lists all the nearby quests, who is offering them, and where they are. As you level up in the AG, you could be granted access to the "Back Room" that has a bulletin board with special quests on it. When you are even more elite in the guild, they could give you access to the secret door where the really, really good quests are posted.

Players could also post quests there for other players to do, and your level in the AG would dictate how complex or how many quests a player could post.

This mechanic could start out as just a tent in a level 1 node and increase in size and complexity as the node levels up, so that only AGs in level 6 nodes have epic raid quests and what not.

Gimlog

If i remember well , quest givers have their NPC name in a certain colour. I would like see a animation rather than the usual "!" to show if they have a quest or not , like seeing the NPC trying to catch our attention.

For the breadcrumbs I'll prefer to see them in the quest text rather than on the map.

It's more work but more fun in the end.
At most if the quest is far from the quest giver , a starting point on the map would fine , just to know that the clue in the text are relevant from this point.

consultant

Now as far as making players work for it much like Runescape does well thing is there is something called google so if the quest is kind of difficult then thye just google it. Matter of fact was watching a video and it said how Runescape has more internet traffic than wow. That is because players google quests and other things in Runescape all the time. Think recently they even added a link in game to website.

Now in Runescape players have a choice to keep trying to figure out quest or google it. I figure, if I am 30 min into a quest and no progress has been made then good time to google. Quests are meant to be fun and progressive not long and tedious although must say I have more of a satisfaction when I do not google quests.

But really there is little difference between looking it up on the interneet and getting in game help. So if players had the option to turn Bread Crumbs off and give them the option to get additional help by clicking in game icon if they needed it think that would be alright.

But if instead you force bread crumbs on every one then you are robbing some players of a better questing experience depending on how they view the game. So all you have to do is have a feature that turns bread crumbs on and off.

As far as target location ounce again if target is a little to hard to find then well there is Google. So Google kind of has your hands tied. Now if targets were at lets say random lacations then that would make it more interesting but think that would require a lot more coding on your part.

Another thing I want to mention is that Runescape quests go something like this

1. Find quest by looking it up in quest log go get quest and after that you go to point

2. A....then B.....Then C............D............E and then back quest giver.

3. In most MMOs it is more like Go to point A..then back to quest giver.

So in a lot of MMOs you are pretty much just going back and forth between two points A and B which make it fell more like you are running errands instead of actually questing in some storyline like in Runescape.

Also you could have standard quests which are not to difficult and then other quests that are longer and have more of a story line. Could call them Adventures and / or Grand adventure which would be more like solo content but could require a group or group recommended.

But really the main factor here is Google.

Zagaroth

Personally, I loved TSW (The Secret World) quests. Some of the quests had very clear indicators and kind of walked you through where to go, what to kill, etc.. However, they also had investigative quests (that might not be the name) where they gave you clues and said figure it out. They were quite fun! Although, to be far, I did google them from time to time. I am not sure how difficult it would be on a development side but I feel having quest that have indicators and and having quests that do not is a nice way to go.

Just my two cents

Sajanim

I like having something that indicates a quest giver, the quest text should give all the information that is needed to complete the quest. Not so difficult that you have to struggle to figure out what is required to complete the quest, but not led by the hand or given all the information on the map. I enjoy the exploration, but I recognize that it can get frustrating if you have limited in game time and have to spend the bulk of it just trying to figure out what to do, and not doing.

Montonero Magico

Quest markers of available quests avobe NPC's heads (or some similarly clear equivalent) are a MUST for me. Like WoW Shadowlands, a different marker for main and sidequests would also be nice (if there is even going to be such distinction in AoC). The rest should be told in text. After accepting a quest, they should be added to some kind of journal. That journal should maybe have a "Location:" and "Objctive:" paragraphs written at the bottom, as if our character is taking note of the important things. At Location it should just copy the direcions given by the NPC (as vague or precise as they are) and at Objective it should just have the name of whatever we have to kill/gather/? (esentialy, a tracker). I guess I'm suggesting something similar to what WoW Classic has, plus the main quests icons.

Trebo

Too much: Indicators above or around the NPC.
Too little: You have to click every NPC, allways in fear you missed one hiding behind a log pile.

NPC could call you out, doing emotes,... subtle icon on minimap, or pulsing minimap if you near an
interesting person,... I would prefer something along those lines.

Quanthalamor

Quests should be easy to complete in beginner zones, but I prefer detailed information from the NPC about the quest at hand. If it's detailed enough, you can easily navigate to the right place. Lineage 2 players may remember the hatchling and wolf pet quests, they were really fun to do. Quests should be informative, puzzle-like and fun. If someting is too easy to accomplish it diminishes the feeling of success.

Whatever you design, players will look it up on the web. Even the most difficult and hidden quests will be there, maybe this is another problem. To protect the feeling of secrecy for the most hidden of quests, there may be a completion cap. For example, when 10 players completes them, the quests will disappear. This can add dynamism to the game, but it means a lot of work for designers.

XiraelAcaron

I find the quest board approach a good way to go. For any location you get a simple to remember and similar looking object that every new player in town can interact with which would point them to NPCs in the location that have quests for them. This could also indicate what kind of quests the NPC gives so that players can avoid quest types that they do not like. I think you should NOT be able to accept quests right there at the board, it only helps players to find quest NPCs to talk to. The quest board does not necessarily need to contain all quests, so some people who like to discover quests on their own can do so. Also it encourages players to ask other players about hidden quests. I think this way, the individual quest NPCs do not need an obvious icon over their head.

Quest givers in the open world are, of course a little bit different to handle. But since you have to look for them anyway, it seems ok to not have a quest board for all of them (some may be part of a node quest board). It may be good to see whether some NPC in the world is a quest given by selecting them and seeing a Icon (like a buff). That way you do not have to approach them and start to talk to them to see whether they give quests or not.

Regarding quest descriptions in general, I would like to have hyperlinks (toggle-able) in the quest description that would open the map on click to show you an outline of the area where you can find said object/location until it fades away (this could also includes the NPC names on the quest board). That way players can always get location information about quests they have in their in their quest log. But it does not spam the map with symbols.

I do not like the glowing path approach at all. People should be able to see the location on the map and find their own way there. This also furthers the players knowledge of an area, including its dangers. And since the world changes with node levels, they might even find new things on the way they did not notice before.

I always like NPC calling me, or some other additional way of making me notice them. And town cries could be used to announce especially important quests. Although both methods can become annoying when overdone.

In general: if you add visual aids, they should always be able to be turned off. Although if they are there most people will be end up activating them anyway, even if they initially don't want to. But that is no reason to deny them to other players that like them.

Eques3n

I would say make it optional. Just set up a way to turn it off and on, depending on what the player wants. If they want to superman the quest, let them go at it. If they get stuck and confused, they can always turn it on to figure out where they need to go and then turn it back off again to continue.

Chime

50/50. As a new player, it's nice to be able to see exactly where you need to go and what to do. But if it's too overwhelming where things start to overlap on your map or UI screen it gets too cluttered.

Hurf Derfman

It depends on the context of the quest.
In other words there should a mixture of quality and quantity of crumbs.

So hunter wants me to kill raptors, he knows where raptors are so he tells me so I would then have a highlight on my map showing me where to go.

But if the hunter isn't sure what killed the livestock he points you to where to find clues and the quest would update in stages.

Drops could start quests. As could entering an area. A distinct sparkle in a item/object that is quest related is fine, but a giant compass arrow or a glitter trail leading right to the objective is too much.

As far as quest giver NPCs I'm perfectly fine with the ! And ? System. This isn't the 90s and I don't want to spend all day talking to every NPC in the region. Especially for turn ins.

PhilosopherOfTheCell

Honestly the amount of bread crumbs depends on the amount of detail given with the in-game dialogue and the general immersion of the world. If the dialogue is just wasteful fluff that has zero impact or valuable information, then you essentially need the bread crumbs(almost all MMOs). I would say a massive issue with modern games is the fact that with the onslaught of abrasive breadcrumbs in the MMOrpg genre and really the RPG genre in general, note taking, direction following and attentiveness to the npc “voice“ and geographical landmarks has almost been abandoned to the awful “yellow exclamation mark” and the guiding “highlight footsteps”. One of my childhood favorites was Morrowind. Paying attention to landmarks, and quest dialogue was radically important so you could find the treasure or discover intrigue or learn historical flavors that affected future dialogue. It keeps you immersed and exploratory, always interested in what clues you may find. No one does this anymore... idk if its just a decline in education or the quality of writers... maybe writers just dont apply for jobs in the video game design field.. maybe game designers dont hire actual writers... idk. But to sum it up, IMO if your game even needs bread crumbs... you have failed with the writing, immersion and detail of the world.

Potato Basket

I'd really like quest logs to have the key word highlighted to help quickly get the relevant info instead of having to read everything

For example If the quest is to gather 10 iron so 10 iron should be like this

This way you could have both rich and easy to digest quest logs

Those who want to immerse themselves in the story would read everything and those who don't care as much or don't have the time could understand quickly what needs to be done

Roblight

I agree with other comments about having a bit of a range for quests. I think there should be somewhat of a main story line quest path that can keep you on the right path for where you should be ie. as you get to higher levels the "main quest" line wants you to go to a higher leveled city and speak with somebody that will then send you out to a node that should roughly be your level of content.

I also am a huge fan of the idea that some quests should be ones that require you to deduce or learn about the world and will have unique rewards as they perhaps can only be completed once certain nodes are unlocked.

I think its important that a range exist especially if leveling will be a challenge and will take time. I also think there needs to be a variety with your questing at certain big levels 10,20,30 etc might unlock the potential for a class, profession, religion, character focused quest line that could be a different path and will provide little to no guidance. The point being that those quests if you decide to do them will take your character on a different path because of choices that you are making without even knowing it.

Hasorko

I feel like this is a question different gamer types will always fundamentally disagree on. Some just want to get their dopamine points asap, others want to know what is going on lore wise and solve riddles. I could imagine a system, in which the player decides how "lazy" or "smart" he feels. He can choose to get many clues (i.e. from a "Information Broker" kind of service), but it comes with a cost: Experience gained is smaller, due to the fact that the "character" basically didn't figure out the problem himself and reward is also smaller due to having to "pay" for the service. Thus one can decide if one wants the fast to the action, but less reward route, or use ones own head and reaping full rewards route. It would be important to find a good balance in rewarding, so that it doesn't take 3 times the time for maybe a 10% reward increase, while taking into consideration, that if quests aren't entirely random generated, people will have access to the quests solution via wikis at some point and thus will become much faster at solving them. Ideally, the quest challenge would be as time consuming, as opening a wiki, finding the quest, reading the solution and the reward would be proportional more according to time spend on quest vs time spend figuring quest out. Thus the reward per time is the same and one can just choose if the lore and puzzle solving matters to you (obviously with the risk and reward that you can be bad/ good at figuring out what to do). The system can also be designed so that people can decide what markers they want like there is a guide at the entrance of each town, where one can "buy" for the map markers, where quests are, without "buying" the quest objective markers -> thus he gets part of the bonus reward but not all.

Overall personally I dislike:
- having an overwhelming amount of quest markers when entering a new area
- having an overwhelming amount of quest objectives on the map (to the point I cant see the map anymore)
- running from one quest to another (I dont really need a quest to gather materials/ gold for my player housing or to explore or even hunt if these activities in itself have a reward. If most of the profit comes from quest rewards rather than from the activity, I feel forced to quest at all times)
- not having ANY idea on what to do (Some games have quest that have no clue and require one to use a specific not mentioned item in a not mentioned spot at a not mentioned time ...) There should be at least some clues
- not having to think at all ever

TheHowardX

i personally prefer no obvious things like markers over their head. maybe more like a person on the street that has a vocal thing of being like "excuse me can you help me?"

XerayReaper

I don't mind having quest markers on the map and stuff, I've grown to appreciate them; however, I also don't like how handholding they can be. It would be more immersive to have the players actually read the quest, and know the areas that relates toward the quest; in a way, it helps players become more familiar with the land of zones. The only help you'd get is from word of mouth of other players, quest logs, and possibly useful information from other NPCs around the towns.

I can see most players newer to MMOs finding this pretty time consuming, compared to just grabbing the quest, following the guide to the marker on your map, and finishing whatever requirements of the quest is; but I think it would fit with what the game is all about: player interactions. It also feels more rewarding to figure out these things as you go, than just being pointed to point A to point B.

Rockwell

The straight forward go kill or gather style quests is fine to have an obvious icon and probably should have a little area or icon on the map and mini map for the vicinity of where you need to go.

Narrative quests should be more involved and "bread crumby" it makes these quests much more immersive. I like having to read the journal entry, use items to discover the proper path, or finding the hermit in a cave by exploring.

As for NPC Icons have a toggle setting for an obvious WoW style icon over their head, a subtle glow or mouse icon, and off.

DaddySteve

I prefer as little bread crumbs as possible. Make me actually want to care about the world you painstakingly built. The less help I have the more I will actually read or listen to quest givers and explore the world. It makes the effort that much more rewarding in my opinion. If there are too many markers or icons on the map i really dont have to pay attention and can go on auto-pilot.

Debase

I think a mix is what I like best. For low level things like kill or gathering quests, a little more direction, especially when 25 people may be simultaneously doing the same thing is fine. For signature, story, epic, etc quests, where its meant to be a process of discovery, then I like the cryptic messaging a community crowd-sourcing that goes into completing them.

Medrash1

I absolutelly don't like any exploration help that doesn't make sense as a game prospective, it's just cheating and take away some fun of the game... interaction with the world.
No icons is a lot better, and rewords more the better player. Maybe the player can tag a npc , i will allow this.
If someone doesn't like to talk with people and find the quest by himself then there is the Free exp farming outside or maybe dungeons.

This makes harder for people to get all the quest, making some variety and social interaction come alive.

The breadcrumbs quests are rly important ... i don't get why you wrote the noob cheats in parentheses after breadcrumbs ...
I think that all the games need more of this type of quest, to help the player reach certain zones and be informed more.

No noob cheats is better. An alternative can be to put notes into the map, and points, so you can help yourself while doing quests.
It will improve the exploration and fun of the game.

TheLastNoise

Could there be two alternative Breadcrumbs? An Options setting of sorts. One being a dotted line to the location/person, or an arrow icon above the location/person.

I guess that this is extra code that doesn't need to exist.

How about a custom color preference of the Future Breadcrumb system. Possibly cosmetic alternatives, flame orbs, stars, or other creative icons to act as the trail or above head icon.

Just an idea.

Legion82

I think if your going for that old school MMO feel. I would leave them out or make it to where the quest giver is known but having to read the text will tell you what you need to do and maybe a location area. Too much info on the quest and they seem like filler for just xp. But please dont make it like the questie add on for wow

Minkku

No breadcrumbs. Maybe a mark you can get from a guestgiver into your map.

Yuniel

Markers above npc heads for pick up/turn in are fine, same for them being on the minimap/large map with filters to toggle them off/on.

Besides that : the less hand-holding the better.

zkl

When there's too much breadcrumb, the story / lore becomes optional.

When you need to understand where to go based on what NPCs are telling you, then you need to pay attention so that you understand what they mean.