Hello, I prefer tab combat, I prefer to click and not move at all, 0 skill involved and all stat checking.
Action combat is good but I don't like it in MMO's. I don't want people soloing bosses at lvl 1 cuz of skill based combat, it should be all stat based.
That's my opinion.
Edit: Hitting AOE with every autoatack seems terrible.
You're also advocating for 0 skill like @jubilum ?
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt since there's more than one person with this opinion, but I can't think of any boon to having stagnant "guitar-hero"-style combat. Standing still and pressing the same buttons in the same order for every fight, from fighting level 1 mobs to end-level raid bosses, and hoping your dice roll is higher this time sounds extremely boring, stale, and un-engaging.
I guess if you just like dice rolls and have a gambler's persona it makes sense, but outside of that I find it hard to empathize with your mindsets.
You're seriously advocating for a pvp where both players just stand still and cast all their spells in order and whoever crits more wins? That's just unappealing as both a spectator and a participant.
If you can convince me of the benefits of it I'm absolutely willing to listen and consider it, and maybe even convince our friends on this forum too.
I play games mainly to unwind and relax, you may be able to get me to raid a couple times a week as long as it is scheduled ahead of time so I can psychj myself up during the day. But, even then only as a healer and never as a dps. I will bind my main heals to keys for use during intense boss fights but that is as far as my memorization of which key does what goes.
I do not pvp, and kill mobs simply to level. I play mmo's for the crafting, gathering, processing and social aspect and this game seems to be a unique experience in those areas. I have found combat most of the time to be stressful and causes me to not want to participate after a long day of RL stress, don't need it, don't want it.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Hello, I prefer tab combat, I prefer to click and not move at all, 0 skill involved and all stat checking.
Action combat is good but I don't like it in MMO's. I don't want people soloing bosses at lvl 1 cuz of skill based combat, it should be all stat based.
That's my opinion.
Edit: Hitting AOE with every autoatack seems terrible.
You're also advocating for 0 skill like @jubilum ?
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt since there's more than one person with this opinion, but I can't think of any boon to having stagnant "guitar-hero"-style combat. Standing still and pressing the same buttons in the same order for every fight, from fighting level 1 mobs to end-level raid bosses, and hoping your dice roll is higher this time sounds extremely boring, stale, and un-engaging.
I guess if you just like dice rolls and have a gambler's persona it makes sense, but outside of that I find it hard to empathize with your mindsets.
You're seriously advocating for a pvp where both players just stand still and cast all their spells in order and whoever crits more wins? That's just unappealing as both a spectator and a participant.
If you can convince me of the benefits of it I'm absolutely willing to listen and consider it, and maybe even convince our friends on this forum too.
I play games mainly to unwind and relax, you may be able to get me to raid a couple times a week as long as it is scheduled ahead of time so I can psychj myself up during the day. But, even then only as a healer and never as a dps. I will bind my main heals to keys for use during intense boss fights but that is as far as my memorization of which key does what goes.
I do not pvp, and kill mobs simply to level. I play mmo's for the crafting, gathering, processing and social aspect and this game seems to be a unique experience in those areas. I have found combat most of the time to be stressful and causes me to not want to participate after a long day of RL stress, don't need it, don't want it.
I think its fine to have that mentality.
But when playing games I dont think limiting others for what you prefer or vice versa is healthy or engaging.
I myself dont get stressed from action based combat with a high speed low drag feel to it. Action just feels better and immerses player control and RP better. Having standing still pokemon take turn battles is fine, but I dont want to do that in an MMO.
As long as action combat exists in a sufficient form, I'm fine because it means my higher skill with dodging and blocking and actual maneuvering will be rewarded over someones tab target limited by being bound to one specific reaction and action.
At least as far as pvp goes. And thats the way it should be. Going more risk for more reward
Hello, I prefer tab combat, I prefer to click and not move at all, 0 skill involved and all stat checking.
Action combat is good but I don't like it in MMO's. I don't want people soloing bosses at lvl 1 cuz of skill based combat, it should be all stat based.
That's my opinion.
Edit: Hitting AOE with every autoatack seems terrible.
You're also advocating for 0 skill like @jubilum ?
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt since there's more than one person with this opinion, but I can't think of any boon to having stagnant "guitar-hero"-style combat. Standing still and pressing the same buttons in the same order for every fight, from fighting level 1 mobs to end-level raid bosses, and hoping your dice roll is higher this time sounds extremely boring, stale, and un-engaging.
I guess if you just like dice rolls and have a gambler's persona it makes sense, but outside of that I find it hard to empathize with your mindsets.
You're seriously advocating for a pvp where both players just stand still and cast all their spells in order and whoever crits more wins? That's just unappealing as both a spectator and a participant.
If you can convince me of the benefits of it I'm absolutely willing to listen and consider it, and maybe even convince our friends on this forum too.
I play games mainly to unwind and relax, you may be able to get me to raid a couple times a week as long as it is scheduled ahead of time so I can psychj myself up during the day. But, even then only as a healer and never as a dps. I will bind my main heals to keys for use during intense boss fights but that is as far as my memorization of which key does what goes.
I do not pvp, and kill mobs simply to level. I play mmo's for the crafting, gathering, processing and social aspect and this game seems to be a unique experience in those areas. I have found combat most of the time to be stressful and causes me to not want to participate after a long day of RL stress, don't need it, don't want it.
I think its fine to have that mentality.
But when playing games I dont think limiting others for what you prefer or vice versa is healthy or engaging.
I myself dont get stressed from action based combat with a high speed low drag feel to it. Action just feels better and immerses player control and RP better. Having standing still pokemon take turn battles is fine, but I dont want to do that in an MMO.
As long as action combat exists in a sufficient form, I'm fine because it means my higher skill with dodging and blocking and actual maneuvering will be rewarded over someones tab target limited by being bound to one specific reaction and action.
At least as far as pvp goes. And thats the way it should be. Going more risk for more reward
That is fine. The OP question was what you prefer which i answered. I've you like action that is cool...you do you. I personally just don't find the whole thinking and reacting in a split second to be a relaxing pass time.
I am a pure tab target kind of player. I have no desire to memorize a bunch of key combinations to activate a skill, this is why I couldn't play BDO, I spent more time looking at the skill tree between fights to remember the combinations than playing the game. I have a hard enough time remembering WASD to move around. I use my mouse to click skills on my hot bar to activate skills, I set up my rotation from left to right on the hot bar and move down the line to the end and move back to the left to start over skipping those still on cool down. I also rarely move during combat, only when standing in nasty stuff, since I also use my mouse to turn that means downtime on my rotation. This may not be the most efficient play style for all but it works best for me. I'm always about KISS.
I mean no offense, as I support everyone having their own opinions and preferable systems and gameplay options, but in what way is this fun or engaging?
Not having any desire to learn how to play a game is a completely alien concept to me. Why are you even playing if you aren't going to learn how to play?
If you're not actually playing, and you're just pressing buttons in order, not even moving around, then you aren't really playing a game imo.
It makes sense if you see combat as just a means to reaching other content like crafting or something, but otherwise this just sounds very stale.
I played ESO the most out of any MMO, and there is a sort of creativity that comes with limited abilities, that's why I like to see that AoC only has one bar. I really do hope that this 'hybrid' combat system is truly hybrid and not action combat with a forced 20% tab target abilities. What I mean by this is, I hope the tab target abilities are going to be viable in their own way.
This is interesting, because I constantly see people complaining that there is no variety in builds in ESO. Everyone always picks the same setup because there isn't enough variety or usefulness in other setups which stems from so few ability slots.
Huh. Whenever I played, I was constantly swapping out abilities, gear and weapons to adapt to different situations, I also saw people constantly running vastly different builds to the point that people of the same class played in completely different playstyles. You might see a sorcerer running around with wind spells with a sword and bow, or one using the classic magic staves. Maybe you don't swap out every ability, or some are just too good to take off your bar, but there is definitely ones that are better in only some situations. At least in the case of sorcerer, I constantly swap out abilities depending on if I need more mobility, defense, damage or burst.
This is coming from someone who has bad eyesight and arthritic hands, so please take that into account as it does effect my preferences. I will also state I'm not a pvper.
I've mostly played WoW, GW2 and ESO so those are what I can base my thoughts on.
My favourite has to be GW2 and while AoC does seem to follow it a bit, it sounds like it is missing two of the things that make it great, mouse moving and no left click mouse button attack. I find a combination of mouse moving and keyboard moving the best option. ESO using only the keyboard moving is far too clunky for me, watching the livestream I can see it in the sideways movements, there aren't the nice smooth curves that i get in WoW or GW2. Which for me is major point against immersion is i feel my character isn't moving naturally. I also find that it limits me on special attacks as my keyboard hand is tied up with moving, so often on ESO i just mostly make basic attacks throwing in a few special ones while i'm standing still.
Having to constantly left click to make a basic attack, and it sounds like that will apply both in tab and action combat modes is just mouse killing.
However I do love the ability to dodge spells and attacks that GW2 had, (I can't even remember if ESO had a dodge option, i was too busy just trying to move and use abilities to be concerned about dodging). WoW I find too static now, I love being able to cast spells while moving like I could in GW2 (not so much in ESO due to the lack of mouse moving). I also don't like how arrows and spells can curve to follow the target, or go through what should be a solid object to hit.
I would really like if they could give us an option to keybind the basic attack to another button and have the mouse for camera and movement. It would also stop me taking someones head off every time I try and look over my shoulder.
While talking about movement I will add that having seen footage of the horse mounts half passing and side passing, I'm impressed with them. Now if they can just get them to look more natural when jumping than most mounts in games do (I have yet to see footage of them jumping In AoC), it would be a major improvement.
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TimeraiderMember, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Loved both GW2 as well as FFXIV. However.. whilw FFXIV was vastly superior in many ways, after the combat in GW2 .. I kinda want some type of action-based combat. its just so much more mobile and flexible in most situations imo.
A being can not judge light if he has never seen it, neither can he judge darkness if he never has been it
Tab for ranged and action for melee.
Why? I am ridiculously bad at aiming in any kind of FPS-based game. Bullets just seem to curve around my enemies even if i aim correctly at them....
Bow and arrow would be even worse because of the projectile delay over long distances.
I love action based everything, with a soft auto-target - except for sniping classes. I want snipes to feel godly when they don't miss, tab attack on sniping sounds wrong - maybe for short range basic attacks?
I largely prefer tab-target combat in MMOs, especially for healing. I do like action combat as well, so the hybrid seems like it'll be a good fit. It'll be interesting at least.
I come from playing FFXIV and SWTOR though, so tab is what I am used to. I tried BDO briefly but didn't like the combat. I do kind of like New World's combat (though it has lots of room for improvement).
My favourite has to be GW2 and while AoC does seem to follow it a bit, it sounds like it is missing two of the things that make it great, mouse moving and no left click mouse button attack.
Left click attack is only in action camera, as of right now the default basic attack key is Q
Also, regarding movement, you have to remember it's just Steven playing, and just because he doesn't use both-mouse-button movement doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And you have to keep in mind the movement habits he has doesn't reflect what levels of movement there are, because he's playing as he does.
I prefer a free-form tab-target based combat, as in you can target lock the adds but it serves solely to trace the path of (mostly) ranged attacks like arrows and fireballs, this means that should a target dodge 'out of' the previously determined path for a fireball they would successfully avoid the spell. For me, Ashes of Creation is a direct evolution of GW2 in this sense, while providing much better connection between tab-target and action combat and more "weight" (hopefully?) to the animations.
"Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."
Having first been introduced to online gaming with Phantasy star online, I much prefer action rpg elements. But I will love it more with the fantasy that the mid-evil setting can bring. I am waiting for you spellblade/Bladecaller....
That being said, I do like target locking to at least watch what your foe is doing and engage it in combat. Tab targeting can be used with that at least.
Tab for ranged and action for melee.
Why? I am ridiculously bad at aiming in any kind of FPS-based game. Bullets just seem to curve around my enemies even if i aim correctly at them....
Bow and arrow would be even worse because of the projectile delay over long distances.
I second this... NW got me so uncomfortable lol but then again I was never an action combat player, especially ranged classes. Man, aiming with an action camera is... awful. I mean, I hate it so much like... so much. @_@
"Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."
Tab for ranged and action for melee.
Why? I am ridiculously bad at aiming in any kind of FPS-based game. Bullets just seem to curve around my enemies even if i aim correctly at them....
Bow and arrow would be even worse because of the projectile delay over long distances.
I second this... NW got me so uncomfortable lol but then again I was never an action combat player, especially ranged classes. Man, aiming with an action camera is... awful. I mean, I hate it so much like... so much. @_@
I guess its odd to me since I'm the complete opposite. Not using my manual aim to target even as a magic player feels weird to me. I hate tab and just pressing a button cycling to any enemy without actually looking at the individual. Breaks immersion and gameplay to the max for me lol. I was estatic to leave WoW for other games (mainly ESO ) when I finally had the option to do more realistic and immersive combat
Tab for ranged and action for melee.
Why? I am ridiculously bad at aiming in any kind of FPS-based game. Bullets just seem to curve around my enemies even if i aim correctly at them....
Bow and arrow would be even worse because of the projectile delay over long distances.
I second this... NW got me so uncomfortable lol but then again I was never an action combat player, especially ranged classes. Man, aiming with an action camera is... awful. I mean, I hate it so much like... so much. @_@
I guess its odd to me since I'm the complete opposite. Not using my manual aim to target even as a magic player feels weird to me. I hate tab and just pressing a button cycling to any enemy without actually looking at the individual. Breaks immersion and gameplay to the max for me lol. I was estatic to leave WoW for other games (mainly ESO ) when I finally had the option to do more realistic and immersive combat
Ah.. mmm see, that's where AOC shines. It provides both systems so we can enjoy the same game in slightly different ways! /cheers
"Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."
H8edHeroMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Since I want/need the game to support me using my own controller configuration. I need the Action Combat option at the very least. I was very happy to see it in the recent development update. I just hope the camera can look behind me when running another direction. From the video it doesnt seem to be able to do that. I will work with it but it will further limit capabilities.
The "hybrid" system isn't even a real thing, it's literally tab-targeting but you use a reticle to click on targets. Just like ESO. It's a gimmick. I'd personally prefer action combat as it takes far more skill, but if we're honest, only Korean MMO's seem to use it without making it horrible. New World being a weird, small exception.
The "hybrid" system isn't even a real thing, it's literally tab-targeting but you use a reticle to click on targets. Just like ESO. It's a gimmick. I'd personally prefer action combat as it takes far more skill, but if we're honest, only Korean MMO's seem to use it without making it horrible. New World being a weird, small exception.
That's an oversimplification and misinterpretation of what hybrid is and what they showed.
Hybrid is definitely a real thing, look at ESO or GW2 or even Wildstar.
Basic attacks are a free action and you can do them regardless of having a target. Same as many linear projectile or hitscan action skills in AoC.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The "hybrid" system isn't even a real thing, it's literally tab-targeting but you use a reticle to click on targets. Just like ESO. It's a gimmick. I'd personally prefer action combat as it takes far more skill, but if we're honest, only Korean MMO's seem to use it without making it horrible. New World being a weird, small exception.
ESO is almost entirely action combat and is hugely successful.
The tab target isnt a tab target, its just a highlighter.
Everythig else requires pure action roll dodge, block and aim reticle and skill activations being 100% dependent on aiming and activating on pure reticle targeting.
I very much prefer the hybrid combat system because of my experience with it in GW2. It can feel really smooth, satisfying, and balanced if they do it properly. I'd much rather have a good hybrid combat system than a purely tab target or purely action based system.
VarkunMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Don't care as long as it is fun.
Does not matter what the eventual combat system is some will hate it some will love it with many sitting in the middle. But at the end of the day the best combat systems out there will only get you so far if the games other systems suck.
Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
I prefer tab target
action combat jsut becomes to spammy with leftclicks and is alot about strafing around enemies for LoS, especially in PvP.
I rather use skills to do what i need to do, it gives me alot more variation then just spamming 4-5 skills and left mousebutton.
Tab for ranged and action for melee.
Why? I am ridiculously bad at aiming in any kind of FPS-based game. Bullets just seem to curve around my enemies even if i aim correctly at them....
Bow and arrow would be even worse because of the projectile delay over long distances.
I second this... NW got me so uncomfortable lol but then again I was never an action combat player, especially ranged classes. Man, aiming with an action camera is... awful. I mean, I hate it so much like... so much. @_@
I guess its odd to me since I'm the complete opposite. Not using my manual aim to target even as a magic player feels weird to me. I hate tab and just pressing a button cycling to any enemy without actually looking at the individual. Breaks immersion and gameplay to the max for me lol. I was estatic to leave WoW for other games (mainly ESO ) when I finally had the option to do more realistic and immersive combat
I feel ya man. I like tab for camera stability but my brain is heaps more engaged in full action.
Tab magic always puts me to sleep. e.g. Kingdom Hearts BBS is by far my favourite combat system - which is tab heavy, but the magic system was like hitting a roadbump in the flow battle.
Mice offer so much precision compared to joysticks, it's a huge waste to ignore that.
But I'm a support at heart, and support is a huuuuge pain when I'm trying to click on the rogue who's appearing and disappearing everywhere.
I do want to chime in again, I can see both sides of the spectrum with this, but I think it's really going to boil down to more player accessibility. The more people playing the better.
After all I've seen so far and heard Steven say over the course since the start i have full faith they aren't going to put out some garbage no one likes.
This will be a great time for the constructive feedback, Steven has asked for if you are in the alphas and betas.
No, not just this combat sucks.....real constructive feedback that will help the game overall, and help them make the awesome game we all want.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I said my preference but I never said why. I've played games that used both systems and felt good.
My reasons for prefering free aim over tab is:
1. more diversity in skill delivery:
With tab, you have a target, press a button, and the skill goes off on the target, with there sometimes being a travel time.
With free aim systems, there is so much more you can do with how the skill is delivered.
You have projectiles that you can vary in size and speed. You can have a fireball be a slow-moving, large, projectile. You can make arrows curve in the air by gravity as they would in our reality. With their travel time, they get naturally balanced by range. You can let them fly father then you would any tab skill as it's hard to predict a player's position the farther out they are. Players also have a chance to react as they can see the skill coming.
You can still have your raycast/hitscan abilities that hit the target if you aimed at top of them. Basically functions the same a tab skills but require you get aim your curser which can be difficult.
For melee, you can have a variety of different swing hit boxes. You can vary them in width and length. You can have long narrow thrusts that are hard to aim but go far as well as wide swings that are easy to land on anyone hugging you.
To me, there is just so much that can be done with it which kind of leads to the second point.
2. More "skill." This is less about epeen and more about learning. As a gamer, I like to learn how to play my character and master them. With the variety of ways skills can function that i mentioned in my first part, i find there is more to learn in free aim systems. Mastering the hitbox and timings of all my abilities feels rewarding.
3. Harder to be focused in fights. This probably sounds small but might be the biggest reason I have always disliked tab. You only need to play a melee in any tab game that has large scale pvp content (Hasla gives me nightmares). The fact that in a big fight, if the enemy side has enough numbers there is that feeling that I'm one focus macro+any instant cast skill away from death and there is nothing I can really do about it, especially because I play melee. Even if it doesn't really happen, the fact that it's really that easy is demoralizing for me. As a melee though, you generally die quickly in large fights if you try to engage. It's just not fun and i don't think it fits the melee class fantasy.
In tab, you click on someone and your skills will fly through any number of friends and enemies to hit your target. In free aim systems, even if your skills don't collide with allies, it's hard to aim through them with any level of accuracy. Not only that, it can't fly through an enemy. It will hit the first enemy it comes in contact with.
Aiming creates a situation where people naturally want to spread out to fight instead of staying clumped up in a giant zerg. This is nice as it breaks the battle up into smaller fights. It's still a large fight as the two armies will be fighting all around you and focusing can still happen but it's harder. This generally makes the fight a little bit more manageable and allows you to spend more time in it, enjoying the chaos.
Sorry, for the long post. I think my last point might seem weird but it's something I've noticed and in all the games I've played, I've started to feel differences. Love archeage but as a melee character, I hated its large scale pvp. I probably should note that there are other things that ashes are doing that i think will help this.
I was wondering, AoC seems to be appealing to both tab target fans and action combat fans. But I've personally not really met anyone who would choose tab targeting over action combat (and was even of the opinion that action combat is simply a modernized and improved version of the other), even as someone who split my time between WoW/FFXIV and BDO/Tera. For me personally, Tera's combat was the SOLE reason I played the game - literally nothing else, which makes me think that a game with good outside mechanics AND a good combat system is all you need to have the golden MMO.
What does the community here think?
~~Nalifi
The dual focus on trying to implement both Tab target and Action systems seems to me to have an end point where the overall combat system wont really feel right for people with a preference of one or the other.
It will also leave the game in a situation where one style of combat OR the other is the meta. No amount of balancing will change that.
I am yet to see a game that has great action combat systems have true depth as a role playing game with a complex synergistic crafting based economy or truly meaningful choices within class systems. The combat is, and should be the reason to play those games. Action combat is at its most engaging, effective and interesting when using a controller, and for a game where combat is most often one on one is undoubtedly a more visceral experience. Mouse based action combat systems tend to be either unwieldy or too simplistic to be more than a face your opponent button spam + dodge.
Tab Target systems tend to offer more diverse combat at the expense of activity and can feel somewhat slower or less responsive and limited in one on one combat. Tab Target Systems are far superior for implementing group PvE mechanics that are engaging, complex and synergistic in ways action combat systems simply can not. Games that use this system tend to be PC based and offer far an away the better RPG experience in all non combat areas and large group raid content.
Ashes of Creation is trying to marry that intense visceral feeling you get with action based PvP combat and the breadth/width of meaningful and engaging PvE and group content that is far better supported with the Tab Target System.
We have always seen the two schools of combat as distinctly separate entities, and i think this has led us as players and Devs to ask the wrong question. At the moment we are asking how do we utilise both of these systems in a game. The right question is how do we make the one that supports RPG depth feel like in your face, bone shattering, face-burning, tea-bagged you sucker PvP goodness.
The answer can not be found in a separated Hybrid system, it lies in creating an active Tab Target System that gives the player more agency and options during PvP encounters so that Ashes PvP combat can capture the intensity and skill factors that make action combat systems so much fun without losing group and PvE depth in the process. To do that, we need to morph Tab Target into a system that feels active and can be harnessed as effectively with a controller as it can be with a mouse and keyboard.
In the latest Dev Stream we saw a boxed skills system which i believe lends itself to creating an Active Tab Targeting system which could potentially work to make combat feel very much like Action combat.
The key to it all lies in giving the player agency over procced abilities. Essentially being able to store procs which the player can then activate as they choose to during combat. I would also consider using two-phase timed activation for certain skills and abilities (think NBA2k shooting bar) which would give higher value for closer to perfect timing or in synch with a class skill.
Instead of conforming to the idea of passive procs just doing their thing, we instead focus on creating active procs which rely on the player to use them at the most beneficial point of contact. If these abilities are based on the fundamentals of action combat like orientation, distance and position of relative players rather than being dependent on where the cursor is locked, then it IS the hybrid of action and Tab Target without the need for a separate discrete system to accommodate it.
There are a multitude of benefits to taking this approach over the current iteration of the Hybrid idea, the main one being that it is the one system for everyone. I also believe that a system like this would be far easier to balance for mouse and controller based players than the current one will be.
Expanding down this kind of path offers far more potential for general player agency in weapon, skill and crafting lines. It also has some interesting possibilities in legendary quest lines that could offer unique rewards with unique procs for the successful adventurer.
Anyway, if you have got this far, thanks for taking the time to work through this WOT. Feedback most welcome
I go into detail on a couple specific mechanics but I 100% favor more action combat like @Lfmr mentioned about ESO's.
I could not stand WoW's combat of click and let keybinds do all your work.
So when ESO came out with actual skillful gameplay and a limited bar choice selection so you actually had to make choices in your builds with actual combat movement as a real factor?
Oh man a no brainer, it was like a breath of fresh air from the moldy dark room of WoWs combat, to ESO's vastly more interesting pace and combat choices.
Now for people who are old or disabled I understand why having tab target would be preferable
Given that the Core market sector for MMORPG is PC based 30+ year olds, then you are really saying that Tab Target is the smart move for any company making an MMO >.<
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NodoffMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Action combat is my preference 10/10 times.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I go into detail on a couple specific mechanics but I 100% favor more action combat like @Lfmr mentioned about ESO's.
I could not stand WoW's combat of click and let keybinds do all your work.
So when ESO came out with actual skillful gameplay and a limited bar choice selection so you actually had to make choices in your builds with actual combat movement as a real factor?
Oh man a no brainer, it was like a breath of fresh air from the moldy dark room of WoWs combat, to ESO's vastly more interesting pace and combat choices.
Now for people who are old or disabled I understand why having tab target would be preferable
Given that the Core market sector for MMORPG is PC based 30+ year olds, then you are really saying that Tab Target is the smart move for any company making an MMO >.<
No.
Dont even know why or how you made up a statement that not only is directly opposite of what I was saying, but also objectively false. I would say the exact opposite actually.
The core market of mmorpg being PC only has only been alive for a relatively short timespan in relation to games as a whole. Most arcade games and old game consoles were action based and the first form of gaming that the majority of people were, and are introduced to and play today. Especially more action focused in todays modern world of gamers thanks to advancing and modern technology for game systems.
Technology for computers and mechanic functions and coding didnt start advancing until games had established themselves and new innovative programmers were being hired and pushed to create better more fluid gameplay for mmorpgs.
Hence why the market is now catching up with current and modern gamers. Action combat is objectively more engaging, and the games are advancing to reflect this across the board.
Tab Target is a simplistic sytem that is more of a relic of older system limitations. I dont mind that it exists to assist an older game population, but its not an excuse to limit the players who are coming up and far more numerous across the board that simply prefer action combat in the game world.
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I play games mainly to unwind and relax, you may be able to get me to raid a couple times a week as long as it is scheduled ahead of time so I can psychj myself up during the day. But, even then only as a healer and never as a dps. I will bind my main heals to keys for use during intense boss fights but that is as far as my memorization of which key does what goes.
I do not pvp, and kill mobs simply to level. I play mmo's for the crafting, gathering, processing and social aspect and this game seems to be a unique experience in those areas. I have found combat most of the time to be stressful and causes me to not want to participate after a long day of RL stress, don't need it, don't want it.
I think its fine to have that mentality.
But when playing games I dont think limiting others for what you prefer or vice versa is healthy or engaging.
I myself dont get stressed from action based combat with a high speed low drag feel to it. Action just feels better and immerses player control and RP better. Having standing still pokemon take turn battles is fine, but I dont want to do that in an MMO.
As long as action combat exists in a sufficient form, I'm fine because it means my higher skill with dodging and blocking and actual maneuvering will be rewarded over someones tab target limited by being bound to one specific reaction and action.
At least as far as pvp goes. And thats the way it should be. Going more risk for more reward
That is fine. The OP question was what you prefer which i answered. I've you like action that is cool...you do you. I personally just don't find the whole thinking and reacting in a split second to be a relaxing pass time.
Huh. Whenever I played, I was constantly swapping out abilities, gear and weapons to adapt to different situations, I also saw people constantly running vastly different builds to the point that people of the same class played in completely different playstyles. You might see a sorcerer running around with wind spells with a sword and bow, or one using the classic magic staves. Maybe you don't swap out every ability, or some are just too good to take off your bar, but there is definitely ones that are better in only some situations. At least in the case of sorcerer, I constantly swap out abilities depending on if I need more mobility, defense, damage or burst.
I've mostly played WoW, GW2 and ESO so those are what I can base my thoughts on.
My favourite has to be GW2 and while AoC does seem to follow it a bit, it sounds like it is missing two of the things that make it great, mouse moving and no left click mouse button attack. I find a combination of mouse moving and keyboard moving the best option. ESO using only the keyboard moving is far too clunky for me, watching the livestream I can see it in the sideways movements, there aren't the nice smooth curves that i get in WoW or GW2. Which for me is major point against immersion is i feel my character isn't moving naturally. I also find that it limits me on special attacks as my keyboard hand is tied up with moving, so often on ESO i just mostly make basic attacks throwing in a few special ones while i'm standing still.
Having to constantly left click to make a basic attack, and it sounds like that will apply both in tab and action combat modes is just mouse killing.
However I do love the ability to dodge spells and attacks that GW2 had, (I can't even remember if ESO had a dodge option, i was too busy just trying to move and use abilities to be concerned about dodging). WoW I find too static now, I love being able to cast spells while moving like I could in GW2 (not so much in ESO due to the lack of mouse moving). I also don't like how arrows and spells can curve to follow the target, or go through what should be a solid object to hit.
I would really like if they could give us an option to keybind the basic attack to another button and have the mouse for camera and movement. It would also stop me taking someones head off every time I try and look over my shoulder.
While talking about movement I will add that having seen footage of the horse mounts half passing and side passing, I'm impressed with them. Now if they can just get them to look more natural when jumping than most mounts in games do (I have yet to see footage of them jumping In AoC), it would be a major improvement.
A being can not judge light if he has never seen it, neither can he judge darkness if he never has been it
Why? I am ridiculously bad at aiming in any kind of FPS-based game. Bullets just seem to curve around my enemies even if i aim correctly at them....
Bow and arrow would be even worse because of the projectile delay over long distances.
I come from playing FFXIV and SWTOR though, so tab is what I am used to. I tried BDO briefly but didn't like the combat. I do kind of like New World's combat (though it has lots of room for improvement).
Irkallu discord: https://discord.com/invite/CB3ZrnD
Left click attack is only in action camera, as of right now the default basic attack key is Q
Also, regarding movement, you have to remember it's just Steven playing, and just because he doesn't use both-mouse-button movement doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And you have to keep in mind the movement habits he has doesn't reflect what levels of movement there are, because he's playing as he does.
I heard a bird ♫
That being said, I do like target locking to at least watch what your foe is doing and engage it in combat. Tab targeting can be used with that at least.
I second this... NW got me so uncomfortable lol but then again I was never an action combat player, especially ranged classes. Man, aiming with an action camera is... awful. I mean, I hate it so much like... so much. @_@
I heard a bird ♫
I guess its odd to me since I'm the complete opposite. Not using my manual aim to target even as a magic player feels weird to me. I hate tab and just pressing a button cycling to any enemy without actually looking at the individual. Breaks immersion and gameplay to the max for me lol. I was estatic to leave WoW for other games (mainly ESO ) when I finally had the option to do more realistic and immersive combat
Ah.. mmm see, that's where AOC shines. It provides both systems so we can enjoy the same game in slightly different ways! /cheers
I heard a bird ♫
That's an oversimplification and misinterpretation of what hybrid is and what they showed.
Hybrid is definitely a real thing, look at ESO or GW2 or even Wildstar.
Basic attacks are a free action and you can do them regardless of having a target. Same as many linear projectile or hitscan action skills in AoC.
ESO is almost entirely action combat and is hugely successful.
The tab target isnt a tab target, its just a highlighter.
Everythig else requires pure action roll dodge, block and aim reticle and skill activations being 100% dependent on aiming and activating on pure reticle targeting.
Gears of war too is a good example.
Does not matter what the eventual combat system is some will hate it some will love it with many sitting in the middle. But at the end of the day the best combat systems out there will only get you so far if the games other systems suck.
action combat jsut becomes to spammy with leftclicks and is alot about strafing around enemies for LoS, especially in PvP.
I rather use skills to do what i need to do, it gives me alot more variation then just spamming 4-5 skills and left mousebutton.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
I feel ya man. I like tab for camera stability but my brain is heaps more engaged in full action.
Tab magic always puts me to sleep. e.g. Kingdom Hearts BBS is by far my favourite combat system - which is tab heavy, but the magic system was like hitting a roadbump in the flow battle.
Mice offer so much precision compared to joysticks, it's a huge waste to ignore that.
But I'm a support at heart, and support is a huuuuge pain when I'm trying to click on the rogue who's appearing and disappearing everywhere.
After all I've seen so far and heard Steven say over the course since the start i have full faith they aren't going to put out some garbage no one likes.
This will be a great time for the constructive feedback, Steven has asked for if you are in the alphas and betas.
No, not just this combat sucks.....real constructive feedback that will help the game overall, and help them make the awesome game we all want.
My reasons for prefering free aim over tab is:
1. more diversity in skill delivery:
With tab, you have a target, press a button, and the skill goes off on the target, with there sometimes being a travel time.
With free aim systems, there is so much more you can do with how the skill is delivered.
You have projectiles that you can vary in size and speed. You can have a fireball be a slow-moving, large, projectile. You can make arrows curve in the air by gravity as they would in our reality. With their travel time, they get naturally balanced by range. You can let them fly father then you would any tab skill as it's hard to predict a player's position the farther out they are. Players also have a chance to react as they can see the skill coming.
You can still have your raycast/hitscan abilities that hit the target if you aimed at top of them. Basically functions the same a tab skills but require you get aim your curser which can be difficult.
For melee, you can have a variety of different swing hit boxes. You can vary them in width and length. You can have long narrow thrusts that are hard to aim but go far as well as wide swings that are easy to land on anyone hugging you.
To me, there is just so much that can be done with it which kind of leads to the second point.
2. More "skill." This is less about epeen and more about learning. As a gamer, I like to learn how to play my character and master them. With the variety of ways skills can function that i mentioned in my first part, i find there is more to learn in free aim systems. Mastering the hitbox and timings of all my abilities feels rewarding.
3. Harder to be focused in fights. This probably sounds small but might be the biggest reason I have always disliked tab. You only need to play a melee in any tab game that has large scale pvp content (Hasla gives me nightmares). The fact that in a big fight, if the enemy side has enough numbers there is that feeling that I'm one focus macro+any instant cast skill away from death and there is nothing I can really do about it, especially because I play melee. Even if it doesn't really happen, the fact that it's really that easy is demoralizing for me. As a melee though, you generally die quickly in large fights if you try to engage. It's just not fun and i don't think it fits the melee class fantasy.
In tab, you click on someone and your skills will fly through any number of friends and enemies to hit your target. In free aim systems, even if your skills don't collide with allies, it's hard to aim through them with any level of accuracy. Not only that, it can't fly through an enemy. It will hit the first enemy it comes in contact with.
Aiming creates a situation where people naturally want to spread out to fight instead of staying clumped up in a giant zerg. This is nice as it breaks the battle up into smaller fights. It's still a large fight as the two armies will be fighting all around you and focusing can still happen but it's harder. This generally makes the fight a little bit more manageable and allows you to spend more time in it, enjoying the chaos.
Sorry, for the long post. I think my last point might seem weird but it's something I've noticed and in all the games I've played, I've started to feel differences. Love archeage but as a melee character, I hated its large scale pvp. I probably should note that there are other things that ashes are doing that i think will help this.
The dual focus on trying to implement both Tab target and Action systems seems to me to have an end point where the overall combat system wont really feel right for people with a preference of one or the other.
It will also leave the game in a situation where one style of combat OR the other is the meta. No amount of balancing will change that.
I am yet to see a game that has great action combat systems have true depth as a role playing game with a complex synergistic crafting based economy or truly meaningful choices within class systems. The combat is, and should be the reason to play those games. Action combat is at its most engaging, effective and interesting when using a controller, and for a game where combat is most often one on one is undoubtedly a more visceral experience. Mouse based action combat systems tend to be either unwieldy or too simplistic to be more than a face your opponent button spam + dodge.
Tab Target systems tend to offer more diverse combat at the expense of activity and can feel somewhat slower or less responsive and limited in one on one combat. Tab Target Systems are far superior for implementing group PvE mechanics that are engaging, complex and synergistic in ways action combat systems simply can not. Games that use this system tend to be PC based and offer far an away the better RPG experience in all non combat areas and large group raid content.
Ashes of Creation is trying to marry that intense visceral feeling you get with action based PvP combat and the breadth/width of meaningful and engaging PvE and group content that is far better supported with the Tab Target System.
We have always seen the two schools of combat as distinctly separate entities, and i think this has led us as players and Devs to ask the wrong question. At the moment we are asking how do we utilise both of these systems in a game. The right question is how do we make the one that supports RPG depth feel like in your face, bone shattering, face-burning, tea-bagged you sucker PvP goodness.
The answer can not be found in a separated Hybrid system, it lies in creating an active Tab Target System that gives the player more agency and options during PvP encounters so that Ashes PvP combat can capture the intensity and skill factors that make action combat systems so much fun without losing group and PvE depth in the process. To do that, we need to morph Tab Target into a system that feels active and can be harnessed as effectively with a controller as it can be with a mouse and keyboard.
In the latest Dev Stream we saw a boxed skills system which i believe lends itself to creating an Active Tab Targeting system which could potentially work to make combat feel very much like Action combat.
The key to it all lies in giving the player agency over procced abilities. Essentially being able to store procs which the player can then activate as they choose to during combat. I would also consider using two-phase timed activation for certain skills and abilities (think NBA2k shooting bar) which would give higher value for closer to perfect timing or in synch with a class skill.
Instead of conforming to the idea of passive procs just doing their thing, we instead focus on creating active procs which rely on the player to use them at the most beneficial point of contact. If these abilities are based on the fundamentals of action combat like orientation, distance and position of relative players rather than being dependent on where the cursor is locked, then it IS the hybrid of action and Tab Target without the need for a separate discrete system to accommodate it.
There are a multitude of benefits to taking this approach over the current iteration of the Hybrid idea, the main one being that it is the one system for everyone. I also believe that a system like this would be far easier to balance for mouse and controller based players than the current one will be.
Expanding down this kind of path offers far more potential for general player agency in weapon, skill and crafting lines. It also has some interesting possibilities in legendary quest lines that could offer unique rewards with unique procs for the successful adventurer.
Anyway, if you have got this far, thanks for taking the time to work through this WOT. Feedback most welcome
Given that the Core market sector for MMORPG is PC based 30+ year olds, then you are really saying that Tab Target is the smart move for any company making an MMO >.<
No.
Dont even know why or how you made up a statement that not only is directly opposite of what I was saying, but also objectively false. I would say the exact opposite actually.
The core market of mmorpg being PC only has only been alive for a relatively short timespan in relation to games as a whole. Most arcade games and old game consoles were action based and the first form of gaming that the majority of people were, and are introduced to and play today. Especially more action focused in todays modern world of gamers thanks to advancing and modern technology for game systems.
Technology for computers and mechanic functions and coding didnt start advancing until games had established themselves and new innovative programmers were being hired and pushed to create better more fluid gameplay for mmorpgs.
Hence why the market is now catching up with current and modern gamers. Action combat is objectively more engaging, and the games are advancing to reflect this across the board.
Tab Target is a simplistic sytem that is more of a relic of older system limitations. I dont mind that it exists to assist an older game population, but its not an excuse to limit the players who are coming up and far more numerous across the board that simply prefer action combat in the game world.