Gauging Community Combat Preference [Tab vs. Action, thoughts on Hybrid]

I was wondering, AoC seems to be appealing to both tab target fans and action combat fans. But I've personally not really met anyone who would choose tab targeting over action combat (and was even of the opinion that action combat is simply a modernized and improved version of the other), even as someone who split my time between WoW/FFXIV and BDO/Tera. For me personally, Tera's combat was the SOLE reason I played the game - literally nothing else, which makes me think that a game with good outside mechanics AND a good combat system is all you need to have the golden MMO.

What does the community here think?

~~Nalifi

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Varkun

The one downside to action combat is if you are on high ping you suffer for it. A number of people seem to predict that combat in AOC will be somewhat like ESO and having played ESO for 6+ years I enjoy the combat but the ping from Australia makes you want to punch walls sometimes when you compare someone playing on 50ms to the 300+ my guild mates and I usually suffer through.

I really do hope the OCE servers are at least somewhat close.

But then again we shouldn't be coming up against players from other parts of the world in AOC.

NelsonRebel

Varkun wrote: »

The one downside to action combat is if you are on high ping you suffer for it. A number of people seem to predict that combat in AOC will be somewhat like ESO and having played ESO for 6+ years I enjoy the combat but the ping from Australia makes you want to punch walls sometimes when you compare someone playing on 50ms to the 300+ my guild mates and I usually suffer through.

I really do hope the OCE servers are at least somewhat close.

But then again we shouldn't be coming up against players from other parts of the world in AOC.

That has a lot less to do with action combat (if any at all) and just that ESO's servers are a decade old that were bought from blizzard.

Their game engine is actually a 2008 custom engine and that coding for the servers hasnt aged well with their server structure.

Action combat when the game launched actually worked better in 2016 for eso when the population caps were higher and there were 600 population caps for cyrodill. Now the cap is 300 and is infinitely worse.

The degredation was also exacerbated by Zenimax moving a large portion of client side calculations to their main servers in an attempt to combat cheat engine for PC users. Unfortunately they moved all the console players too and this compounded the issues with server stress to the maximum in 2017 going forward for both server sides.

ESO's performance issues have nothing to do with having an action based combat system. Its their managment of server and client information calculation and aging code work with a server and engine structure that was never designed to work the way Zenimax has made the servers do currently with overloading the servers with too much information and calculation beyond its design.

Their choices are between shelling out for new servers that can fit their custom design engine and workload, or go back to clients taking the load off of the server and risk cheats being more abundant.

Fizzwingle

Let me start by saying i respect your passion and one eyed bias to Action combat. Its what YOU like and what YOU want. Its always cool to see fire in a gamer

Also let me be quite clear that I want Action combat in this game and for it to be freakin awesome.

Now for a little PWNage

Given that the Core market sector for MMORPG is PC based 30+ year olds, then you are really saying that Tab Target is the smart move for any company making an MMO >.<[/quote]

No.

Dont even know why or how you made up a statement that not only is directly opposite of what I was saying, but also objectively false. I would say the exact opposite actually

Less than 30% of all MMORPG players are under 25. 50% or so are over 30. This is actual market research not something i just pulled from the air to base my point around, Its FACT. Go look it up for yourself if you need to, its pretty easy to find. Just because you say the opposite does not mean you are correct.

MMORPG are fundamentally a result of the PC and internet connectivity. They are, quite literally a spawn of internet and its networking capacity. They have more in common with Table top games than with arcade ones.

Action based combat games certainly share a spiritual connection to arcade and console games, but MMORPGS have more in common with Dungeons and Dragons than they do with streetfighter, Mortal Kombat or Tekken. For the most part action games are MMOs and forget the RPG part simply because Action combat for all its crazy fun feel is by nature relatively narrow and misses the mark on the RPG part of MMORPG. The reason that nothing has truly killed WoW yet is because they lack the LORE that immerses people and keeps them returning even though the combat systems are not as exciting.

You find Action combat more engaging, and it certainly is more visceral and intense than the current iterations of tab target systems, and like many people you see only what exists now, not what could be with a little bit of creativity.

Creative coding that redefines what hardware is capable of and changes what we believe can be done is what drives gaming technology forward more than the hardware driving the software. Programmers have been burning out graphics cards and motherboards since the 80s. For example, they did not add buttons and sticks to controllers BEFORE programmers said to them, we need a controller that can do these extra things we programmed.

For people that cut their gaming teeth on RPGs, Action combat always feels like it limits the way a character can interact with the whole game, reduces meaningful character choices and is less about the role playing than it needs to be to provide a satisfying GAME experience.

Action combat severely limits the potential for group and raid content to be what it can and limits the potential strategic and tactical options for much of the group content that Ashes proposes. It simply cant offer the same breadth of options that a Tab Target system can because it can not maintain the same number of accessible skill options.

On the other hand, taking a creative approach to what people currently see as tab target and adding a layer of procs that a player has agency over which conform to action combat mechanics could quite conceivably provide an active experience the equal of any in gaming at the moment. If they did this very well, it could be even better than other games current iterations of action combat with incredible diversity and customisation that rivals anything in the market.

Essentially what i am saying is that there is no reason that a fully fleshed action system cant exist within a Tab-Target core system and that it should be handled as an extension of rather than separate to Tab Target. Focusing the other way with discrete separate systems will limit the potential for the rest of the game systems, particularly PvE, caravan and large scale siege/node war engagements.

I absolutely want the best possible experience for PvP combat, and that really benefits from a fast paced, narrow active set of abilities built around a personal play style, and, i dont believe a separate discreet system will end up giving that to the Action Junkie. I believe re-imagining the proc system can give the action player everything they want and more.

IF Action combat can be built around a proc economy there is NO NEED FOR TRANSITION so the whole system would feel integrated and very natural. It would also reduce the the potential for Tab-Target players to simple be able to nuke Action builds before they even get into real combat and, i think makes ranged action combat much easier to balance effectively. The ranged issue is a real game breaker for the current model with tab target abilities being far easier to use than action ones. In a hybrid system this will be near impossible to balance without becoming either severely OP or Underpowered.

If the Hybrid system can not be made to balance properly, the Devs have said Tab Target is the fallback system. I dont belive that the current dev direction will end up supporting a quality action system which would be a great shame. I do, however believe that insanely cool and fun Action combat can be tied into the game seamlessly with a slight shift in mindset to see action combat as part of instead of separate to Tab-Target.

NelsonRebel

@Fizzwingle

Before I go into my counter argument, would you mind linking me your reference where 30% are under 25?

Also what poll determined that of those age 30 and up actually prefer tab over action since the Vast majority of games and new mmos coming out for the past decade have all been moving towards action?

Fizzwingle

NelsonRebel wrote: »

@Fizzwingle

Before I go into my counter argument, would you mind linking me your reference where 30% are under 25?

Also what poll determined that of those age 30 and up actually prefer tab over action since the Vast majority of games and new mmos coming out for the past decade have all been moving towards action?

Just search MMORPG users by age 2020. The stats are easy to find.

Have a good look at the people that create content/Stream MMORPGs (not MMO) just at a glance you can see how heavily that 30+ demographic is represented.

Also be very aware that ashes is an MMORPG not simply an MMO. There is a subtle but huge difference in that definition. an MMO does not need to factor in the RPG elements (particularly larger scale co-operative group content, classes with deep and wide skill sets, complex economy and crafting) that are key to the feel of and immersion in an RPG world.

As far as combat preference goes, WoW is still the most played MMORPG in the genre with 3 times the monthly player base of the nearest rival so to suggest that Action combat is the better or preferred system for an MMORPG is something of a leap.

Remember too, i am not suggesting that Action combat not be part of the core game play, simply that a discrete hybrid system wont balance well enough to be usable in the final game build and leave the devs falling back on a straight tab target model. I would much rather see something new that does it better than either has before. A system that incorporates action mechanics through build and a proc economy is something that has real potential to be incredibly engaging, fluid and diverse.

Dreoh

Fizzwingle wrote: »

NelsonRebel wrote: »

@Fizzwingle

Before I go into my counter argument, would you mind linking me your reference where 30% are under 25?

Also what poll determined that of those age 30 and up actually prefer tab over action since the Vast majority of games and new mmos coming out for the past decade have all been moving towards action?

Just search MMORPG users by age 2020. The stats are easy to find.

That's an incredibly bad faith thing to say. He asks you to provide a source and you respond with "just google it"

It's the kind of shit you see from facebook political moms

Caeryl

Let’s all be real here. There is literally nothing tab-target brings that action combat doesn’t bring. Some people don’t want the skill-focused, fast paced action combat, and that’s fine to want something slower and simpler, but we don’t need to start lying about how tab somehow requires as much as skill as action combat does. It just doesn’t.

Dreoh

Caeryl wrote: »

Let’s all be real here. There is literally nothing tab-target brings that action combat doesn’t bring. Some people don’t want the skill-focused, fast paced action combat, and that’s fine to want something slower and simpler, but we don’t need to start lying about how tab somehow requires as much as skill as action combat does. It just doesn’t.

I wouldn't say tab target brings nothing to the table. Being able to see an entire arena while you're casting abilities changes the dynamic of combat, whereas when you're stuck with action camera you see from a horizontal perspective most of the time.

Tab target also makes more sense for some abilities, like channeled spells akin to soul drain or something where it keeps casting even while the target is moving around. True you can do this in action cam, but any Overwatch Symmetra player will tell you that the new Primary Fire beam doesn't feel nearly as immersive and solid as the original Lock-on primary fire

LowQuey

@Nalifi personally I've found the action combat system to be very clunky in mmorpgs. I'm hoping its improved since TERA was first released but I remember beta testing it and it was horrible to play. Daggers felt impossible to hit with because the range was so short, and weapons like greatswords were dodged easily. About the only weapon worth using was the polearms because while being slow their range allowed you a decent chance of still hitting someone.

Fizzwingle

Dreoh wrote: »

Fizzwingle wrote: »

NelsonRebel wrote: »

@Fizzwingle

Before I go into my counter argument, would you mind linking me your reference where 30% are under 25?

Also what poll determined that of those age 30 and up actually prefer tab over action since the Vast majority of games and new mmos coming out for the past decade have all been moving towards action?

Just search MMORPG users by age 2020. The stats are easy to find.

That's an incredibly bad faith thing to say. He asks you to provide a source and you respond with "just google it"

It's the kind of shit you see from facebook political moms

I had closed my browser tabs and was too lazy to be bothered going back and finding it again at 3:30am my time so figured that Nelson could go chase it up if they were really that interested in it.

The vast bulk of the top 10 played MMORPGs in the current market are those released PRE 2014. Outside of Black desert no MMORPG released after that has garnered a substantial long term player base. There are a lot of reasons for this, but the focus on MMO style action combat in the bulk of those post 2014 releases seems likely to be part of that inability to engage large player bases for long periods of time.

I scrolled through a number of different surveys and studies this morning and found this one which least supports my point on Age demographic. There are others that do, but i will happily say i was wrong for male gamers. its closer to 50% over 25 than 50% over 30. The studies that just look at the 10 and 20 most played MMORPGs support my original statement. The one quoted here is far broader in its data sourcing.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/130552 /unmasking_the_avatar_the_.php?print=1#:~:text=Demographics of MMORPG Players,-About 15% of&text=This ranged from 8% to,of MMORPG players are teenagers.

All this is still mostly a distraction from the point here which is that an Action Combat system can be accommodated within a tab target system. It does not require a separate discrete structure for it to exist in a profound, deep and immersive way. It just takes looking at it in a different way without a bias to one or the other.Trying to have the two systems exist side by side in the same game will break around the balancing of ranged effects.

The capacity to focus more on action or tab functionality can be driven by skill allocation and agency over a proc economy instead of having a locked set of skills that are one or the other. To succeed in the ambition of having both kinds of functionality in a balanced way, making one system that does both seems the only option that will work to satisfy both styles of play without one or the other becoming a distinct Meta.

Oh, also, no need to be insulting, im here for a conversation not a confrontation. Your input and suggestions would be more constructive. Do you think an action system can not be incorporated into a Tab Target system? Why not?

Fizzwingle

Caeryl wrote: »

Let’s all be real here. There is literally nothing tab-target brings that action combat doesn’t bring. Some people don’t want the skill-focused, fast paced action combat, and that’s fine to want something slower and simpler, but we don’t need to start lying about how tab somehow requires as much as skill as action combat does. It just doesn’t.

Tab Target brings the capacity for far more structured, immersive team based combat and allows for levels of mechanical complexity in boss and large group vs group fights that Action Combat systems have been unable to match thus far. The capacity to access far more skills in a way that is accessible to more players supports group and raid content far more effectively and accessibly than action combat does or can.

Its less about the skill level required to PvP than it is about the capacity to support deep and immersive PvE content and the social connections which have underpinned the longevity of the most successful MMORPGs. Action combat systems are either to simplistic and spammy or too complex and skill heavy to engage a large enough player base for a long time.

One of the other factors that is very important in an Action combat system game is the capacity to alter builds relatively easily to make them work better for specific combat scenarios. This is not something that the proposed systems in Ashes will allow for.

Nalifi

LowQuey wrote: »

@Nalifi personally I've found the action combat system to be very clunky in mmorpgs. I'm hoping its improved since TERA was first released but I remember beta testing it and it was horrible to play. Daggers felt impossible to hit with because the range was so short, and weapons like greatswords were dodged easily. About the only weapon worth using was the polearms because while being slow their range allowed you a decent chance of still hitting someone.

Could be you didn't get too far - Even if 'unbalanced', 'spammy' and 'rotation locked' could be criticisms of TERA's combat system, I don't think that a lack of fluidity is one of them - when you learn the animation cancels, combos, and get all your abilities, its definitely the most fluid in the genre

Nalifi

After reading through both sides, it seems like the main preference for tab targeting comes from the fact that some people would prefer to have less intense combat and rather focus on raid mechanics, immersion and strategy. To be honest, I think the main chunkiness from tab targeting to me at least comes from the unanimity of mechanics such as GCDs and lengthy animation locks in the pre-eminent tab targeting games right now, referring to WoW and FFXIV - it literally just feels like you're pressing 1-9 on the keyboard while waiting for the circle to finish moving around the skill icon. And it ends up being more spammy, because GCD forces you to spam the button to get the best timing (it doesn't reward precise inputs). Having the fluidity of action combat systems with a tab target system (so animation cancels, no huge cooldown/animation locks) would be quite nice, and I've heard that's what existing successful hybrid systems do.

That being said, there's a pretty big focus on PvP that's been demonstrated so far in Ashes of Creation. While its true that few true action combat games have been competent at end game raids (I would say Tera was quite good, but BDO obviously is lacking and I can't speak for ESO), I think there is an even larger failure of tab-target games to have good PvP - and in a game where so much of the focus seems to be from these nodes, sieges, large-scale battles, @Fizzwingle 's point of having this less intense combat system would be a bit of a detriment on the PvP side (I can see its benefit in the PvE side for sure though, even if its not for me). Existing tab targeting games are literally just a stat/buildcheck during PvP, you lock onto the enemy, press your normal 1-9 rotation and see who dies first. I think to facilitate PvP, which is the ultimate end game in ashes of creation, they'll need to design a combat system for it, that also works for PvE.

Also most ranged abilities in action combat systems are softlocked, so its not like you're aiming such as in an FPS... it 'feels' action but is often closer to tab in reality (at least for ranged abilities)

Paradise2

Action combat with a high skill-ceiling.

In so far as a high skill-ceiling can be preserved with some tab-targeting (e.g LoL, Dota 2), it's endurable.

Dreoh

Nalifi wrote: »

Also most ranged abilities in action combat systems are softlocked, so its not like you're aiming such as in an FPS... it 'feels' action but is often closer to tab in reality (at least for ranged abilities)

Well this has yet to be shown. Apoc was their action combat testing ground and most of the abilities were reticle-based projectile/hitscan.

Someone on the discord told me when I asked, that Steven once told them to stop testing wands because their projectiles wouldn't despawn and they were aggroing mobs from miles away, so I assume from that they will exist.

Rissy

Being in that 30+ crowd of MMORPG gamers that has played since early EQ1 and all, I prefer tab targeting. I live in an area that doesn't have super speed internet with super low ping no matter where the servers are. I have played GW2, ESO, WoW, FFXIV, BDO, etc etc etc. I even tried out New World and it is ok... if you are a melee person. I am a healer... I don't like having to aim at everything and a FPS/action style camera makes me physically ill due to the motion.

I am hoping the hybrid combat turns out great for everyone. I think we just need to stop these kind of polls and let Steven and team make the darn game. Then we can see how things feel and offer constructive criticism at that point. Just keep in mind that this isn't a MOBA, a BR, or an FPS game. It is a MMORPG. Not everything has to be a twitchy caffeine-driven murder fest

Valento92

Knytemaire wrote: »

Being in that 30+ crowd of MMORPG gamers that has played since early EQ1 and all, I prefer tab targeting. I live in an area that doesn't have super speed internet with super low ping no matter where the servers are. I have played GW2, ESO, WoW, FFXIV, BDO, etc etc etc. I even tried out New World and it is ok... if you are a melee person. I am a healer... I don't like having to aim at everything and a FPS/action style camera makes me physically ill due to the motion.

I am hoping the hybrid combat turns out great for everyone. I think we just need to stop these kind of polls and let Steven and team make the darn game. Then we can see how things feel and offer constructive criticism at that point. Just keep in mind that this isn't a MOBA, a BR, or an FPS game. It is a MMORPG. Not everything has to be a twitchy caffeine-driven murder fest

I agree on everything. Hope this hybrid system provides for both crowds while still keeping combat consistency, regardless of preferences.

Merek

I prefer action combat, but I don't mind tab-target if it feels good. From what Intrepid has shown though, there's literally nothing to get excited about. It is moving along quite quickly though so we'll see.

neobpm

I can't understand how people can talk about hybrid or target system, please, make AoC a full action MMO.

Dreoh

neobpm wrote: »

I can't understand how people can talk about hybrid or target system, please, make AoC a full action MMO.

Well reading through this thread could help you understand.

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