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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
That deals with two out of three concerns, but honestly, the one left is the primary one.
Guilds need to know they will have at least some content on their schedule.
This is just a basic fact. You don't put a raid of 40 people together unless you know you have something to do that needs that many people.
A game having a raid count of 40 people, progression based on loot drops from PvE content, yet no ability to guarantee at least a small amount of content is simply not a game that has thought through how people play.
Guilds don't need to know they have content every day, nor do they need to have guaranteed access to every encounter. They do, however, need to know they can make plans weeks or even months ahead of time so that people with busy lives know that if they log in at the guilds designated raid time, there will be at least some content to take on.
Without the ability to organize PvE like this, the only organized guilds in Ashes will be PvP guilds.
It is not a matter of how instancing is implemented. It is a matter of players fundamentally preferring instancing that splits the playerbase, and detracts from the open world. No matter how well you design game systems around instancing, it doesn't solve the fact that some players will only prefer staying inside instanced content and will whine about any potential PvP interaction. Having two different, irreconcilable playerbases does not improve the health of a game, it detracts from it. So when you say you think there are no negative impacts from having instanced content in the game, I think this is a misguided assumption.
Nobody here is asking for the game to be able to be played in instances entirely. You are skewing the point in its whole entirety. All that is being asked here is to make it possible for the climax PvE content being uninterrupted by PvP
plus you forget the obvious thing that this content brings to the whole economy - a gigantic demand for player power consumable items
― Plato
There are people that only want open world.
There are people that only want instanced.
There are also the bulk of the player base that are in the middle.
Your suggestion only allows for the first group, and excludes both of the other two.
My suggestion allows for the first group, excludes the second, and allows for some of the third.
People that want to stay inside instances are not going to play a game like Ashes, they are not something that needs to be worried about. However, that doesn't mean there can't still be a small number of instances.
I know. Noaani said that he doesn't want everything to be instanced, but he did mention that he wants instanced PvE to be relevant and drop high-end loot. The economy demands can be just as well generated by open world dungeons and raids (which can be designed to decrease the chance of PvP contention).
I think that cultivating this type of expectation in the playerbase, that PvE-instanced content is a viable way to play the game, is not healthy for this game. It's fundamentally irreconcilable with the vision of the game. People who like instanced content will inevitably want more, and I don't blame them for that. They will be acutely aware of the fact that they are less prioritized by the devs, because it will be painfully obvious that they are, by design, not able to keep up with guilds that prefer different content. This will lead to a discontented section of the fan base that will push for fundamental design changes to the open world, and the addition of even more instanced content until it reaches parity with non-instanced content. The way to stop this from happening is to not have relevant instanced content in the first place, and avoid these expectations and stop a split in the playerbase to begin with.
As long as there is relevant instanced content, I think that the second group will exist. We can't explicitly exclude them from playing the game, and they will definitely feel marginalized.
I've said several times that the best items in the game should be from contested content - I don't personally think it should be from open world encounters that are PvP enabled (I'd rather see the best loot on contested encounters where PvP is disabled by what ever mechanic fits), but this is simply a personal preference.
Part of the reason I specifically said - many times now - that instances should be at the bottom of dungeons (specifically raid dungeons) is because that will mean that while guilds are working down towards the instances, they will invariably come across open world bosses in that dungeon. Since the loot from instances will see a raid of 40 take over a year to gear up on, coming across an open world boss with loot that is on par or better than what you would get in an instance will see many guilds stop to take advantage of the situation.
This is also why I have suggested mini-bosses. While the bigger bosses with the best loot may be monopolised by a few guilds, mini-bosses will not be worth that effort. They will be killed by the guilds that happen upon them - and are perfect content to entice guilds that prefer instanced content to also take on open world content.
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
― Plato
To add to this, most of the longer term posters here have already have this discussion a number of times, and are not that willing to go over the same thing again.
one thing i can agree with you on. But considering that out of those vocal induviduals, only very few share your point of view, says a lot..so @Tyrantor point is still valid...
My point was primarily around the fact I haven't had to come back and eat my words (since I said I would) after another 30+ comments I saw that and was like "Oh geez maybe the masses showed up" just to open up the thread and see that it's just you two replying to every post lol.
I mean both of you are going to argue that "No one reads the forums" and "The people that do and have been here this long don't care enough about the topic to post anymore"
These are both convenient stances to take, you understand this right? Self serving excuses for the lack of support on the matter. Neither of you want to consider for a second that you are the minority and/or very few people want this idea? You're just going to dig in and say "They will come"?
Ok.
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
I don't much care for support, because this is the third (pr fourth?) time I been in this same discussion. Support of posters on a forum - any forum - has never been a signal that proves anything.
Also having 4 active posters (you guys) or 2 means literally nothing.
Don't forget that this is not a clearcut issue where you can be immediately in one camp. Otherwise you would have ton of people posting their likes/dislikes to the topic like in DPS mega thread or dual wielding shields thread.
Most people that have read at least parts of this thread can actually see the problem that we present (Dont let open worlds be easy content clearable by anyone with the only obstacle being PvP) and keeping everything in the open world setting. This makes them quite hesitant because both sides have merit to them.
― Plato
LOL You both struck again.
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
If you can't have a discussion, go elsewhere. This is supposed to be a place to discuss things. Don't take out your real life frustrations here. Nobody wants to deal with your crap.
Just a coincidence you've replied to @Bricktop and myself in disagreement in two separate threads within what 4 hours of creating this account? Bravo.
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
I've been reading on the forums offline for a while now. But this topic truly concerns me as I'm a PvE player, so I decided to participate in the discussion. If the game doesn't have solid PvE content, then I won't be playing it so its the only topic that really concerns me.
Also, it isn't just you either. CaptnChuck, you, Bricktop, all of you guys just made this thread more toxic than what it should have been. And it isn't just this thread either, there's like 3 different ones, all of which became more and more toxic the more you 3 replied to each other. I really feel like you guys need to calm down and take things a little less seriously. No need to hate each other over something that really doesn't even exist yet.
Who exactly are you referring to? Do I remind you of someone? My name is from inazuma eleven, so if you watch anime, then maybe you might recognize my name.
At this point all you're doing is derailing the topic and since you're singling me out in replies off topic it seems more toxic activity that you're policing?
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
I posted my opinion on PvE in another similar post, not this one. But to give my opinion briefly, I don't think that PvE content in AoC is going to be challenging enough. I'd love to be proved wrong, but alas, it doesn't look like that is going to be the case.
I'm ok with AoC focusing on a more PvPesque community, but for a game that's trying to redefine the genre, its kind of underwhelming. A lot of the MMO playerbase loves hard PvE content. Not having it just alienates them. A lot of players who love PvP are already playing FPS games, mobas and the like. But there is a large, strong PvE community, that is just waiting for a multiplayer game with good PvE content. The majority of them are playing WoW, as there's simply no other alternative. Not trying to get this playerbase to play your game, just seems like so much wasted potential to me.
Ok, so pvp players can't have or enjoy an MMO. They need to go play Mobas and other fps games. Are you serious? Do you not think there are players who enjoy open pvp content and feel alienated by our current options?
Sorry but you come off as being extremely shitty if you think that ashes needs to change for you because fuck people who like open pvp.
Have you ever even tried to play a game that tried to deliver this kind of experience? Can you at least let the game try something different before saying it needs to do the same thing as everyone else?
No don't get me wrong. I want PvP players to be able to get as good gear and progress similar to PvE, unlike in WoW. I also want high level crafters to be able to craft top tier gear as well.
I just want all types of players to be able to play the game, not just PvPers. But this is just my opinion. I don't want the game to change to suit my opinion as it isn't my game, its Steven's.
There's no need to be so toxic @mcstackerson . I didn't even say a single bad thing to you and you've already said that I'm an extremely shitty person. Sums this thread up pretty nicely.
I've said this before but you do understand that there are millions of WoW players who never had the chance to experience a modern MMO with the general concepts AoC is putting forward. So it's really hard to qualify what they will and wont like, if they've only known white bread and then they get a taste for chocolate they might not be drawn to white bread any longer... Playing WoW doesn't mean the entire population of the game likes raiding bosses and hard NPCs. It's really all the game offers them outside of the gear treadmill that requires you to do those things.
Lastly not every game model is going to fit inside of the economic and political system that will be AoC. I know that's hard to grasp if you come from games that had zero political concept to begin with but you can't just build a bunch of random shit to attract the masses and hope it works. The core aspects of the game are going to be fundamental to the world having purpose past max level.
In fact I'd say that this game replaces a lot of that high end NPC raid content with sieges. Sieges are a much bigger focus in this game as a community draw and world content than NPCs. This does not on any level mean that the NPCs area going to be unchallenging however. If the devs here come from EQ I'm sure they can figure out how to make a NPC hard to kill...
But again if you've got insider information to how unchallenging they are, elaborate on this.
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
The Care Bear psyop is is becoming more and more apparent. 🙊🙉🙈
You said "A lot of players who love PvP are already playing FPS games, mobas and the like." I'm sorry if I came off toxic but if I interpreted what you are saying that pvp players have their games so the game should change to appeal more to pve players. That sounds shitty to me.
I think it's unfounded that the game will have easy pve content because pvp is present. Just because pvp can happen while you pve doesn't mean the content will be balanced around that. This game has content that will appeal to players who enjoy pve. Almost everything comes from the environment so someone will need to farm it. Pvp on the other has no direct rewards associated with it. You don't get honor points for killing someone. Pvp is only a tool you can use to help control the resources available in the world.
The problem with your appealing to everyone argument is you assume what everyone wants and over simply their content desires. You characterize players as pvp, pve, crafting, etc. and based off your categorization, assume that all any player wants is that specific kind of content. Most people aren't that simple. It's like saying that the only thing FPS players want to do is play BRs.
I want what ashes has advertised, the open pve content that can be contested with pvp. Adding instanced pve content with comparable rewards would erode players' incentives to farm in the open-world.
To go deeper, the real reason I want this is because of the social aspect of it. It forces players to interact. There are limited resources so players need to negotiate, either through diplomacy and/or direct conflict. If you are serious about pve in this game, their are times you may need to work with mercenary guilds to keep others away while you do content.
This is what makes the world feel like it's living to me and makes me feel a part of it.
Yes, this game isn't the best for players who are intolerant of pvp or want an easy raid schedule that can't be interrupted but there should be plenty of pve content for players who enjoy it. Even those who don't want to be interrupted may be able to find quieter areas of the map to farm.
I agree. Most WoW players haven't experienced a game like L2 before. But I disagree with you on the second point. Most people that play WoW or FF14, only play it either, because they are too invested in it already, or because of the solid PvE content. PvP in WoW used to be a lot better previously, but it has gotten a lot worse over the years. And PvP in FF14 is dogshit. So PvE is the only reason a lot of them play these games.
Again, I agree. The core aspects of the game have already been finalized for the most part, so its going to be difficult to change it to my suggestion, as stated in my previous reply. I just have a different opinion on some of these systems, but then again, it isn't my game. Its Steven's.
That's PvP primarily, with a bit of PvE. It isn't pure PvE content. Ashes has a lot of systems that satisfy the PvPers and the crafters. But I don't see any that satisfy PvErs.
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
I think @mcstackerson, like a lot of us, are just tired of promising new MMORPGs that get brigaded by keyboard warriors, dragging the game into a dark pit of meaningless PvE before the game even has a chance to come out. We get it, there are a lot of WoW-style PvE fanboys who think that it is a gift from god and must be shoehorned into every single new MMO or else that game is doomed to failure. I'm sorry, but you guys are partially at fault for the lack of innovation in the genre. The entitlement in thinking that every MMORPG should include a system carbon-copied from WoW, is frustrating and completely blind to people who would prefer a new, more dynamic system. And then to demand that every game needs to cater to PvErs and that you guys are worried about not being able to play one single game, is laughable compared to the state of PvP or PvXers in MMOs.
...Yes, they have said that from the beginning, they are trying to get back to what they enjoyed about MMOs. With your logic, you want them to redefine the genre by doing the same thing everyone else is currently doing.
Almost all resources come from PvE. Their are no direct rewards for pvp. Just because pve content isn't instanced doesn't mean it has to be easy.
That's the frustrating thing with this argument, you say you want challenging content and insist that it can't happen unless the content is instanced. For anyone who plays MMOs, should know that's bull. There may be some challenges to having pve content in the open world but to say it's impossible to make it challenging is lazy.
A lot of games have tried and failed. Archeage and L2 both had bad PvE content, games that Steven is drawing inspiration from. Open world content isn't as easy to balance as instanced content. I never said that its impossible. But it is definitely difficult. So the skepticism is justified.