Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
Your problem here becomes, if they were to do this, they would have to fold on several other intended game mechanics. If you have gear achievable through pvp or pve that is better, or even just faster than crafting, especially without a global AH, you hurt crafting and the economy. If you segregate gear into pvp/ pve types people become irritated, since if they wish to do both, even in a single role, they now need two armor sets. And if there is no difference between the two, people on either side become angry if they feel the other has an easier path to the gear. And you still have the same situation of people complaining about being 'forced' into doing something they don't want.
This would be fine in a seperate module like idea, with instanced battlegrounds and pve content, not in an open world pvp, world building game.
Dude
90% of interested people in this game are here mostly because of Interpids vision of the game, brings back MMORPG back to its golden years, the most inspiration is taken from games like lineage, back then concept like pvp or pve didnt exist, there was no 100 different progression paths. If you wanted to get top gear, you had to fight everyone, mobs players etc.
If you are hardcore PVE player, and all you want is kill mobs all day, this is not a game for you. There are plenty of PVE mmos like WOW and a like, which heavily limits most of player interactions. There has not been any recent game, that is not limiting people, and that is not dividing people and forcing everyone to play in one world.
You need to gather materials in an Open World game to craft said gear so you will face a fair amount of player contention. So yes, its tied to PvP. By PvC, that what I'm referring to.
Actually incorrect. 90% of the original people that backed the game. The recent influx of players has come from Streamers, particularly Asmongold. Most of them are WoW players.
I enjoy all types of content, but I really love killing things with my friends. Doing co-ordinated raids and dungeons is super fun. I'm not going to not try out AoC just because it doesn't have good PvE content, but it will be a strong negative for me. I don't wish to play WoW anymore, it may have good PvE content, but it just doesn't appeal to me. Neither does FF14. FF16 looks promising though.
As I expressed in the other thread, their players who don't want their content broken up like that.
There are pvpers that don't like arenas or at least for arenas to be the highest end of their content.
Is it not silly to move content in an MMO out of the world. At some point, the world becomes massive lobby players use to queue for instances. I would like most of the content to stay in the world.
If that's how you use PvX then cool. I know that's usually how it's used when describing a guild but with that definition, most MMOs would be considered PvX. As I said, in my experience, at least in the context of an MMO, when using that pvx, we are referring to a PvPvE MMO.
Still PVC doesnt make any sense, what pvc stands for? player versus crafting? maybe you shouldn't invent some new abbreviations tthat dont make any sense to sound smarter
well, if those asmongold viewers, would read just a bit, or watch some info on this game, then before hyping out on something, they should understand first what it actually is, instead of coming to forum, to complain that the game is not what they expect, when it was clear from the start, what this game is shaping to be.
They already did. They saw Lazy Peon's video on it, just like nearly 2 million others did. That was a 40 min video. Some of the info in that video was wrong, so you can't blame people for misunderstanding certain things. A lot of this isn't clearly stated anywhere.
Hi I’ve been watching this thread for a while because I too am concerned with the quality of the PVE content. Mostly because so far we’ve heard barely anything about it. They’ve shown off how amazing the pvp and node system looks and a single open world dungeon on a limited population test server, the dragon was cool but you can tell unfinished. So I was gonna stay watching until after some more tests.
With that said however I’ve seen a lot of people bringing up how instancing bosses removes them from the world and how that’s a detriment. However Arenas are a perfect example of isolated PVP content. They have already stated that there will be arenas, so if there is PVP content removed from the PVE experience why can’t there be isolated PVE raids removed from the PVP experience.
I have had trouble with open world dungeons in the past and have a biased low opinion of them in general. Although I am willing to see how IS deals with this and there anti Zerg mechanics and hope it is in a way that doesn’t clash with their loot and boss AI mechanics. If in testing they find out that this doesn’t work for bosses I’m hoping it’s a problem they fix sooner rather than later.
I personally think this is a conversation to be had once more information on the type of PVE content has been seen more
I agree. When there is instanced content like arenas, why can't there be instanced raids? I too am waiting to see what Intrepid does with PvE content in AoC.
Raid progression is an important (and fun) tool to incentivize people to form guilds, work together and engage them in the world long term.
If endgame pve content is easy to blow through or generally unrewarding, certain players generally aren't going to spend a lot of time around for that aspect of the game, its very very easy to burn out on that kind of low key (somewhat grindy) content at endgame without devs constantly churning out new content.
The feeling of beating something that you've actually spent significant time to practice and learn with a group of people is one of the best mmo feelings. The victory is all the sweeter because you knew what was at stake, weren't immediately rewarded, but saw how you progressed over days, weeks, etc.., and finally got to celebrate and share that feeling with others.
If that's not the focus of AoC pve then that's fine, you do you. I actually like pvp too. But I don't think people should glamorize it as a 'PvX' game either.
Its another PvP game by nature. Maybe with pve elements, but none of those are really going to be a highlight.
well, just dont invent new abbreviations that dont make sense, what i was saying. because noone will understand what you on about.
I dont blame people for misunderstanding games core concept, but those people should accept for what the core concept is and not argue that it should be changed.
There isn't much backlash against challenging raid content. There is backlash against instanced PvE content though. It's entirely possible that Intrepid is able to innovate and create challenging non-instanced raid content. I think the reasonable thing to do is hold off on the criticism of systems that haven't even been revealed yet.
@AxelBlaze
Arena's won't offer any kind of vertical gear/power progression. In order to get stronger, you'll have to go out into the open world.
Most people here aren't against challenging PvE Content, they are against challenging PvE Content that cripples the open world. All progression will come from instanced PvE Content the moment you make it even remotely viable. Most of them would also be against progression gained through instanced Arenas.
I personally am all for an instanced competitive PvE aspect in the game. Just give it the same type of reward structure, that has also been teased for instanced arenas. (Cosmetics, Titles, Achievements, Horizontal Enchantement Stones, that help with the respective kind of content).
Ashes is said to have a lot of World, Event, Group and Raidbosses. It would be very easy to put a harder, more mechanically challenging copy of those into an instanced PvE Setting. Create Leaderboards, weekly rotations with changes into the behaviour/conditions of the boss and multiple levels of difficulty. Mythic+ has been a huge success for WoW. Setting up a similar system for group and raid content here isn't hard to execute, would be very effective in attracting and retaining PvE focused players + ties perfectly into the open world aspect of the game, as it creates an incentive for these PvE players to go out and further progress their gear.
This would provde the PVE community, with challenging, always fresh PvE Content to strive for as well as an incentive to go into the open world and keep gearing themselves in order to compete in the content of their choice (Competitive Instanced PvE).
Well you need to understand, that the main appeal for most of people here, that this is not aiming to be pop pve mmo. if you dont like the core idea of the game, dont come here to complain that this game need to change to suit you. Find other project that is pve oriented. It might seem toxic to you, but its only people who disagree with your opinion and dont like, that you want to change core game design. thats it
1) Mythic+ dungeons are designed to scale difficulty based on the level of key you have earned, by successfully completing keys of a lower level. This type of content is designed for those seeking SOME, but not all, of the most difficult DUNGEON content.
Mythic Raids do not have an ever-increasing scaling system, they are statically set to the hardest possible mode, with additional mechanics which require a significant change in gameplay to successfully complete.
2) Some people have made the baseless claim that World Boss's can be meaningful combat in terms of boss difficulty alone, and even used World Boss's from Vanilla (Classic) WoW.
I think these people have not played either of those renditions of the game, as the ONLY difficult part of facing a world boss in WoW was the PvP on the PvP servers, and fighting for the tag. The fights themselves are very basic.
- Note: Trying to 'detect' x number of additional players on an encounter and then instantly killing them is NOT a solution, as you have now introduced a means by which a group can train a world boss to a populated region and kill EVERYONE not in their group, or simply kill people who wandered by an epic battle and just wanted to watch.
You CAN make meaningful content in the open world, and it CAN be as difficult as SOME Mythic RAID content. And you CAN do this without accounting for the PvP. The issue is, the two deeply-seated camps of "PvP IS the Game" and "PvE IS the Game", only wish for THEIR preferred content to be the end-all, be-all.
PvE should be challenging and rewarding. PvP should be challenging and rewarding. PvX Should be the GREATEST Challenge with the Greatest Reward.
3) YOU DO NOT NEED TO BALANCE PVE CONTENT FOR PVP CONTENT.
A boss fight, when encountered without additional opposition, should present a challenge commensurate with the level context. The fight should, then, be even MORE challenging when dealing with outside forces. There should be a very high likelihood ALL warring groups will be decimated by the boss when dealing with one-another. Another player SHOULD NOT be more powerful, and thus more of a concern, than the boss you are attempting to down.
This is my first real-post, mostly a lurker, but I couldn't help myself when I saw people attempting to talk about Mythic+ Raids (LOL, because these systems do not exist). The war between PvPers, PvEers, and PvXers boils down to this-> PvPers want PvP to be the focus, where they can dance on the corpses of people they vastly outgear. PvEers want PvE to be the Focus AND not have to participate in PvP. PvXers want to Play Ashes of Creation and the systems they have in-place.
I hope you didn't mean me regarding the mythic+ raids. I just want to clear up the misconceptiom in case that's the case.
I was refering to taking the mythic+ concept and applying it to instanced (and progression free!) raid content in order to add bariable factors that influence the fight, replayability and an increasing difficulty.
I also completely agree with your 3rd point. Open world raid bosses can be made just as hard as instanced ones from a design perspective. All you need to do to support is creating a defensible entrance to the boss room as well as good anti-zerg mechanics
I think for some content, in games with static dungeons, the Mythic+ system is a perfect fit. However, in Ashes, with the dungeon difficulty increasing as you delve further into the dungeon, I think would not do well with a Mythic+ type system, as there is no need to artificially increase the difficulty, as you have a natural progression the deeper you go.
Mythic Raids, again, work in games where the content itself is static, and the addition of new content is few and far between release of new raid tiers. With content being released with Node progression, smaller leaps in difficulty are needed to still have challenging content as the content will have a regular pace with which it is updated.
In Ashes, as far as I am aware, the raid bosses will have a system in place where the difficulty of subsequent bosses, and thus the rewards at the end, are modulated in accordance with raid performance. This is akin to the old style in which WoW introduced hard-modes; Meeting some DPS check, activating some mechanic(Self-Destruct button-Mimiron in Ulduar), or simply waiting and IGNORING certain mechanics(Coalescing Saronite) to activate the "challenge" mode, but with potentially an added twist.
These systems, from personal experience and thus in my opinion, are superior for a number of reasons:
1)Everyone can experience similar content(for lore reasons, etc), but only those who are exceptional can complete the content while ringing all the bells and blowing every whistle.
2)Replay-ability: This, as a Guild Leader, is paramount for a raid to have. When my guild has fought the same bosses, in the same raid, three times on three difficulties, people get burnt out. Even with added mechanics, entire raids lose their magic when you're just killing a slightly different version for the third time that week. By having the challenge mode baked into the content, rather than a difficulty selector, you have to make the meaningful choice to activate these challenge modes, while preserving the magic that raids bring. (There is a reason why we have instance/raid lockouts, partly to gate the rate of power gain, but also to increase to longevity of the content).
I do not think, nor do I want, Ashes to be anything like WoW. WoW is a dying game, but like all Titans, (and you would be hard-pressed to convince me otherwise) the death is one of a thousand cuts taking place over decades, not days. I am interested in Ashes because of the systems presented/outlined by the Intrepid Team, and have the utmost faith they will deliver an astonishing game which shakes the foundation of the MMO scene. Will they get everything right off the bat? NO! That's why we test, test, test, and test some more!
The one thing they can learn from WoW, however, IS the ENCOUNTER DESIGN of their Mythic Raid Bosses. Imagine fighting Mythic N'zoth in the open world, now that gives me tingles (and no short amount of anxiety xD)
Agreed.
This guy gets it. 😎™️
Dude... This isn't a political debate. As much as I'd love to leave politics out of this your methodology and tactics reek of ivy league political science.
All I am saying is if you can't argue against the points being made and have to resort to arguing based on numbers in the discussion, you don't have an argument.
Exactly what a well-trained person would reply with. Not sure why you assume I'm making an argument. Just merely highlighting the obvious.
Yes, we are at the stage of development where they are still figuring out and testing their combat mechanics. It's later on when you will see them start to use those mechanics to design interesting encounters. I wouldn't really call them allowing players to attack each other amazing pvp.
Yes, there will be Arenas but there will also be instanced raids/dungeons. We have heard about 20% of the dungeons/raids will be instanced. One thing to note about Arenas though is that you will not be gearing up in them. Yes, it would not be fair if pvp players could disappear into arenas to gear up and pve players couldn't do the same in instances.
I know the way I have phrased it is moving the bosses to instances is the problem and I probably shouldn't have done that but the real problem is the rewards. What I'm against is them allowing players to go into instances to get their gear as it hurts player incentives to farm in the open world. To me, that is the real problem. Yes, there should be some rewards for instances like their are for Arenas but you shouldn't be able to get everything from it, at least directly.
I 100% that this is a conversation that needs to happen once we have the game or at least more information as you say.
I didn't assume you were making an argument, I was pointing out what I was saying in the post you quoted. I used the word "you" in it's generic form, rather than using it as a second person pronoun, which would be if I was specifically talking about you, Herf, as a person.
Also, there is nothing wrong with being well trained.
Indeed. Your are not incorrect, though perhaps a tad naive.
For tonight's lesson I'm going to post a scene from one of my favorite movies. In this example, let's assume you are "Captain America".
/Discuss
@Noaani
I see your issues now. Thanks for clarifying.
I have been "robbed" of my investments, from games, due to mislabeling, too.
I spent $300 on STO, and haven't touched it, since release.
I bought 4 preorder Collector Edition box sets for SWG. A Faction based PvP game, turned into a crafting dance party (don't get me wrong, I love both.).
So, I understand your angst and passion, for what you understood AoC to be. This is why I will never "invest" in another game, in my life. Show me the content! Then you can have my filthy lucre.
I try to warn peeps. Unfortunately, they rather get burned, than head the warning.
/OffTopicRantOff
Please quit making up Terms, people. There is enough confusion, with what we know. Steven calls it PvX, let's keep it that way. No other game use the variations you've suggested, and AoC is unique enough to use PvX. 😁
You and I just disagree, and that disagreement can come across as naivety to naive people.
I mean, using a movie about aliens as an illustrative point to something real (even if online) is naivety in it's rawest form.
Congratulations gentleman, you're everything to expect from years of government training, the last step in this process is an eye exam if you will come along with me....