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Ganking shouldn't be punished with combat stat nerfs.

24

Comments

  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    nuro wrote: »
    If you are equal in level / power , then you really don't have much of an excuse to not fight back. Its really not bullying if its equal in that sense and also numbers wise.

    I'm very much looking forward to the group PvP in the game. I absolutely suck at 1v1, and will likely lose against anyone, regardless of level. So, I won't be bothering to fight back. If someone attacks me, then they're turning red, and a Bounty Hunter's coming for them. That's the only way I'm getting revenge on them. So, I lose a few more resources by doing it - sob sob sob.

    There are a lot of people that will purposely not fight back so that any would be attacker needs to gain corruption in order to get the kill.

    A lot of people will make the split second decision based on what they are carrying as well - they may well have a good chance of winning the fight, but decide to let the play gain that corruption, then come back in a few minutes and kill their assailant who then gets 4 times the death penalty.

    The thing I think people are forgetting is - you always have a choice as to whether or not you gain corruption. If you attack someone and they don't fight back, you can always break off the fight. You only gain corruption when you kill the player.

    My two worries with corruption pvp are this. Non-combatants gain a lot of detriments when they die, the stat, loot chance, hp/mana, and exp tax are really rough. I don't see myself ever wanting to die as a non-combatant even if it means giving someone corruption. Especially if they are a group of players, only one person will get corruption even though they were all attacking you.

    I wish corruption was gained upon attacking a non-combatant. Not enough to turn you red but enough that it stacks up. You can choose to stop fighting but if you continuously attack green players that little bit of corruption will stack up and make you red.
    8vf24h7y7lio.jpg
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  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    Noaani wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    nuro wrote: »
    If you are equal in level / power , then you really don't have much of an excuse to not fight back. Its really not bullying if its equal in that sense and also numbers wise.

    I'm very much looking forward to the group PvP in the game. I absolutely suck at 1v1, and will likely lose against anyone, regardless of level. So, I won't be bothering to fight back. If someone attacks me, then they're turning red, and a Bounty Hunter's coming for them. That's the only way I'm getting revenge on them. So, I lose a few more resources by doing it - sob sob sob.

    There are a lot of people that will purposely not fight back so that any would be attacker needs to gain corruption in order to get the kill.

    A lot of people will make the split second decision based on what they are carrying as well - they may well have a good chance of winning the fight, but decide to let the play gain that corruption, then come back in a few minutes and kill their assailant who then gets 4 times the death penalty.

    The thing I think people are forgetting is - you always have a choice as to whether or not you gain corruption. If you attack someone and they don't fight back, you can always break off the fight. You only gain corruption when you kill the player.

    Lol well let's hope it doesn't become the meta game for most people to just stand still and let people go red on them. If the devs don't incentivize dying as a flagged player enough and everybody is just standing there letting people go red on them I would be worried about the health of the game. The devs should really focus on making sure there is actually incentive for people to flag. Corruption is there to prevent griefing/camping not PvP altogether.

    And let's also hope it takes more than "a few minutes" to run back to an area you were in when you get killed. Since there are no fast travels and the world is massive there shouldn't be a situation where someone goes red on somebody and two minutes later while they are working off the corruption they have to fight the same person again who is now conveniently ready to actually fight. That wouldn't work very well would it, especially for world bosses. It should take someone a solid 10-15 mins to get back to their grind spot to prevent people from gaming the system like that.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Bricktop wrote: »
    The devs should really focus on making sure there is actually incentive for people to flag. Corruption is there to prevent griefing/camping not PvP altogether.

    The problem is, that effectively forcing a non-combatant to fight when they don't want to due to the penalties involved for not doing so, means that the game itself becomes part of the griefing mechanic.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Bricktop wrote: »
    The devs should really focus on making sure there is actually incentive for people to flag. Corruption is there to prevent griefing/camping not PvP altogether.

    The problem is, that effectively forcing a non-combatant to fight when they don't want to due to the penalties involved for not doing so, means that the game itself becomes part of the griefing mechanic.

    The problem is people will game the corruption system if it isn't painful to die as a non-combatant. One scenario I could see easily is Guilds will just let other guilds go red on them at world bosses instead of actually fighting over them and come back and kill them while they are attempting a boss with dampened stats.

    The game will be zero fun if it's smarter to let people go red on you and you can easily come back and kill them a few minutes later in any potential PvP situation. Why would anybody who already doesn't love PvP actually PvP if it doesn't make it painful to die unflagged.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Bricktop wrote: »
    Lol well let's hope it doesn't become the meta game for most people to just stand still and let people go red on them. If the devs don't incentivize dying as a flagged player enough and everybody is just standing there letting people go red on them I would be worried about the health of the game. The devs should really focus on making sure there is actually incentive for people to flag. Corruption is there to prevent griefing/camping not PvP altogether.
    Literally doubling the death penalty if you die unflagged is a pretty big incentive. You don’t want to lose the progress you’ve just made in PvE. Most people are going to want to fight back.
     
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  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    Atama wrote: »
    Bricktop wrote: »
    Lol well let's hope it doesn't become the meta game for most people to just stand still and let people go red on them. If the devs don't incentivize dying as a flagged player enough and everybody is just standing there letting people go red on them I would be worried about the health of the game. The devs should really focus on making sure there is actually incentive for people to flag. Corruption is there to prevent griefing/camping not PvP altogether.
    Literally doubling the death penalty if you die unflagged is a pretty big incentive. You don’t want to lose the progress you’ve just made in PvE. Most people are going to want to fight back.

    Yeah I'm really really hoping the exp debt and dropped gatherables will be plenty of incentive.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Atama wrote: »
    Bricktop wrote: »
    Lol well let's hope it doesn't become the meta game for most people to just stand still and let people go red on them. If the devs don't incentivize dying as a flagged player enough and everybody is just standing there letting people go red on them I would be worried about the health of the game. The devs should really focus on making sure there is actually incentive for people to flag. Corruption is there to prevent griefing/camping not PvP altogether.
    Literally doubling the death penalty if you die unflagged is a pretty big incentive. You don’t want to lose the progress you’ve just made in PvE. Most people are going to want to fight back.

    I'm a petty, petty, man. If I can punish you even slightly, it's your own fault! Hahahahaha! :)
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »

    There are a lot of people that will purposely not fight back so that any would be attacker needs to gain corruption in order to get the kill.

    A lot of people will make the split second decision based on what they are carrying as well - they may well have a good chance of winning the fight, but decide to let the play gain that corruption, then come back in a few minutes and kill their assailant who then gets 4 times the death penalty.

    The thing I think people are forgetting is - you always have a choice as to whether or not you gain corruption. If you attack someone and they don't fight back, you can always break off the fight. You only gain corruption when you kill the player.

    This is prime example of why there needs to be player enabled combatant flagging. There is zero fun in attacking or killing people who do not fight back, for the people who are willing to risk being attacked we should be allowed the option to circumvent the non combatant flagging all together.

    In regards to the OP the stat dampening related to corruption is likely there to prevent repeated kills on the same player more than multiple players. As an example if you're level 30 and some level 10 tells you where to stick something you may decide that's worth killing them over. However if you've killed them 3-4 times your stats may be lowed to the point that same level 10 could fight back and effectively kill you. If he does this you would then suffer the same (or worse) death penalty because yours would come with substantially more exp/material loss.
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • Tacualeon wrote: »

    Being a bully is not a role.

    That's just not true, it is a role. Maybe you get triggered by it, maybe is not something pleasant to others, but it is a role.

  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Marcet wrote: »
    Tacualeon wrote: »

    Being a bully is not a role.

    That's just not true, it is a role. Maybe you get triggered by it, maybe is not something pleasant to others, but it is a role.

    You could argue it is a role, but intrepid doesn't want it to be a role in their game sooooo. Yea.
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  • TacualeonTacualeon Member
    edited October 2020
    nuro wrote: »
    If you are equal in level / power , then you really don't have much of an excuse to not fight back. Its really not bullying if its equal in that sense and also numbers wise.

    Consent.
    Your rival is your playing partner. When is enough, it's enough.
    You don't get to force your interaction in predatory ways at the cost of others fun.

    Like I said, there is a small line between a thriling and dangerous world out there, and unfun times for the player and client.
  • Noaani wrote: »

    The thing I think people are forgetting is - you always have a choice as to whether or not you gain corruption. If you attack someone and they don't fight back, you can always break off the fight. You only gain corruption when you kill the player.

    So, if you attack someone while he's fighting a mob and he doesn't fight back you can keep helping the mob but leave him the honour of the kill and suffer no penalty? Sounds like a good way to eliminate the competition in an area for the duration of their corps run.
    daveywavey wrote: »
    I'm a petty, petty, man. If I can punish you even slightly, it's your own fault! Hahahahaha! :)

    Would you go so far as to destroy the resources you're carrying while you're being killed to deny them any reward? :p
    Bricktop wrote: »
    The devs should really focus on making sure there is actually incentive for people to flag. Corruption is there to prevent griefing/camping not PvP altogether.

    Completely agreed with that. There should be little if no incentive to attack non-combatants, but many incentives to flag yourself. I'm not sure suffering huge penalties if you don't fight back when facing impossible odds is a convincing incentive though. If the debuffs are done at the end of my corpse run anyway, my ganker will get corruption. I'll work on gaining back my xp while he works on his corruption, we both lose.


    Now, about this grand risk vs reward thing... Can someone enlighten me on why people praise it that much? Since the attacker has the lowest risk (since he choose the target and time to attack) and the highest probable reward (picking a target and making sure he has the bare minimum on himself to diminish his loses). Sounds more like an empty boast if you ask me. Like when people claim they like the thrill of always watching their back, while in fact, when the do so, it's more to find possible preys than anything else. Players' aggro is so weird sometime.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    Percimes wrote: »
    If the debuffs are done at the end of my corpse run anyway, my ganker will get corruption. I'll work on gaining back my xp while he works on his corruption, we both lose.

    I actually can't find more information on this right now, but I would be pretty surprised if there was any kind of corpse running. When you die I'm guessing there will be a few buttons like "To nearest town" "To Guild Hall "To Guild Castle" etc and your character will respawn there with no run back to a corpse.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    Bricktop wrote: »
    Percimes wrote: »
    If the debuffs are done at the end of my corpse run anyway, my ganker will get corruption. I'll work on gaining back my xp while he works on his corruption, we both lose.

    I actually can't find more information on this right now, but I would be pretty surprised if there was any kind of corpse running. When you die I'm guessing there will be a few buttons like "To nearest town" "To Guild Hall "To Guild Castle" etc and your character will respawn there with no run back to a corpse.
    I don't believe there will be a corpse run either, but I also don't believe there is a bind point either. I believe you will respawn at a random location. This came up when people were proposing potential abuses of the corruption system; for example, you go red and end up corrupt so a buddy kills you and grabs your dropped items to give back to you, with the death lowering the amount of corruption you have. But since you respawn in a random spot, it's really inconvenient to meet up with your buddy to continue the process (since removing corruption might require multiple deaths). Especially with the lack of fast travel in the game. That's all I can recall. The developers have definitely made it clear that they want death to be impactful, more than you expect from most modern MMORPGs where it is a minor inconvenience at worst, and sometimes death is such a small impact that you suicide as a free teleport or to remove a combat flag or otherwise use it as a tool. They want it to sting.

    So I wouldn't be shocked if an equivalence to a corpse run becomes a thing, but I haven't read that it will be.
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    Bricktop wrote: »
    Percimes wrote: »
    If the debuffs are done at the end of my corpse run anyway, my ganker will get corruption. I'll work on gaining back my xp while he works on his corruption, we both lose.

    I actually can't find more information on this right now, but I would be pretty surprised if there was any kind of corpse running. When you die I'm guessing there will be a few buttons like "To nearest town" "To Guild Hall "To Guild Castle" etc and your character will respawn there with no run back to a corpse.

    Yeah I agree I doubt this is going to play like WoW where you're a "ghost" until you reach your corpse. You would likely respawn at the nearest respawn point and then go where ever you want, maybe you want to go back to fight the person while they're corrupt or maybe you want to move on. The debuffs are going to apply when you spawn, and I'm really hoping that the non-corruption death penalties are based on a multiplier of time/death(s) and not tied to XP gain. So if you die in PvP (combatant or non) that you just have to "wait" it out versus go grind it out. (Stat dampening understand the exp debt will need to grind)
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    Atama wrote: »
    Bricktop wrote: »
    Percimes wrote: »
    If the debuffs are done at the end of my corpse run anyway, my ganker will get corruption. I'll work on gaining back my xp while he works on his corruption, we both lose.

    I actually can't find more information on this right now, but I would be pretty surprised if there was any kind of corpse running. When you die I'm guessing there will be a few buttons like "To nearest town" "To Guild Hall "To Guild Castle" etc and your character will respawn there with no run back to a corpse.
    I don't believe there will be a corpse run either, but I also don't believe there is a bind point either. I believe you will respawn at a random location. This came up when people were proposing potential abuses of the corruption system; for example, you go red and end up corrupt so a buddy kills you and grabs your dropped items to give back to you, with the death lowering the amount of corruption you have. But since you respawn in a random spot, it's really inconvenient to meet up with your buddy to continue the process (since removing corruption might require multiple deaths). Especially with the lack of fast travel in the game. That's all I can recall. The developers have definitely made it clear that they want death to be impactful, more than you expect from most modern MMORPGs where it is a minor inconvenience at worst, and sometimes death is such a small impact that you suicide as a free teleport or to remove a combat flag or otherwise use it as a tool. They want it to sting.

    So I wouldn't be shocked if an equivalence to a corpse run becomes a thing, but I haven't read that it will be.

    All that sounds good to me. That was how people beat karma in L2 was dying it off to a buddy, they could still lose days or weeks worth of EXP in the process though.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Percimes wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    I'm a petty, petty, man. If I can punish you even slightly, it's your own fault! Hahahahaha! :)

    Would you go so far as to destroy the resources you're carrying while you're being killed to deny them any reward? :p

    Haha, yes, if I thought I could do it in time! I hadn't thought of that! Good one! :)
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • By corpse run I meant returning in the area you died at. Unless you were travelling, you were probably there for a reason and might want to finish what you were doing before being... interrupted.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • nuronuro Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    maouw wrote: »
    @nuro
    What's wrong with not wanting to fight all the time?

    nothing... but this is an open world pvp game. So you will be contested a lot. Nothing is wrong with not wanting to fight all the time, just dont bitch about it in ashes of creation.

    The people that think you need to consent for another player to attack you must be thinking of another game? You dont get to consent to that in this kind of game, thats the point.......
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    nuro wrote: »
    Nothing is wrong with not wanting to fight all the time, just dont bitch about it in ashes of creation.

    Similarly, this is a game where PK'ers are punished for attacking and killing non-combatants. Was your response to the OP also "Don't bitch about it"?
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • nuronuro Member, Alpha Two
    daveywavey wrote: »
    nuro wrote: »
    Nothing is wrong with not wanting to fight all the time, just dont bitch about it in ashes of creation.

    Similarly, this is a game where PK'ers are punished for attacking and killing non-combatants. Was your response to the OP also "Don't bitch about it"?

    you are assuming that the pk penalties aren't going to be tweaked a hundred times before launch. The fact that this is an open world pvp game will stay the same.
    thanks though?
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    This thread isn't about whether or not the game will be open world PvP. This thread was started to ask for the "PK against non-combatants penalty" to be removed. Nobody's asking for open world PvP to be removed.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • nuronuro Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    daveywavey wrote: »
    This thread isn't about whether or not the game will be open world PvP. This thread was started to ask for the "PK against non-combatants penalty" to be removed. Nobody's asking for open world PvP to be removed.

    You were responding to me not the OP. Most people know that PK penalties are needed.. I never advocated for them to be removed entirely.. thats a straw man if I ever heard one.

    I think theres a solution that doesnt make the game feel like an "opt in" system, and that makes playing as a red player very risky but also fun.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    nuro wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    This thread isn't about whether or not the game will be open world PvP. This thread was started to ask for the "PK against non-combatants penalty" to be removed. Nobody's asking for open world PvP to be removed.

    You were responding to me not the OP. Most people know that PK penalties are needed.. I never advocated for them to be removed. thats a straw man if I ever heard one.

    I think theres a solution that doesnt make the game feel like an "opt in" system, and that makes playing as a red player very risky but also fun.
    nuro wrote: »
    The fact that this is an open world pvp game will stay the same.
    I was responding to this.
    And you'll notice on actually reading my comment that I said "This thread was started to...", and we both know that it wasn't your account that started this thread. Therefore, we both know that I hadn't 'accused you' of advocating its removal.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    nuro wrote: »
    If you are equal in level / power , then you really don't have much of an excuse to not fight back. Its really not bullying if its equal in that sense and also numbers wise.

    I'm very much looking forward to the group PvP in the game. I absolutely suck at 1v1, and will likely lose against anyone, regardless of level. So, I won't be bothering to fight back. If someone attacks me, then they're turning red, and a Bounty Hunter's coming for them. That's the only way I'm getting revenge on them. So, I lose a few more resources by doing it - sob sob sob.

    There are a lot of people that will purposely not fight back so that any would be attacker needs to gain corruption in order to get the kill.

    A lot of people will make the split second decision based on what they are carrying as well - they may well have a good chance of winning the fight, but decide to let the play gain that corruption, then come back in a few minutes and kill their assailant who then gets 4 times the death penalty.

    The thing I think people are forgetting is - you always have a choice as to whether or not you gain corruption. If you attack someone and they don't fight back, you can always break off the fight. You only gain corruption when you kill the player.

    My two worries with corruption pvp are this. Non-combatants gain a lot of detriments when they die, the stat, loot chance, hp/mana, and exp tax are really rough. I don't see myself ever wanting to die as a non-combatant even if it means giving someone corruption. Especially if they are a group of players, only one person will get corruption even though they were all attacking you.

    I wish corruption was gained upon attacking a non-combatant. Not enough to turn you red but enough that it stacks up. You can choose to stop fighting but if you continuously attack green players that little bit of corruption will stack up and make you red.

    While I get what you are saying, this causes mechanical errors.

    If attacking a player generates corruption, that player that was attacked can't flag as a combatant by fighting back - as you don't flag as a combatant for fighting a player that has corruption.

    This would require a complete redesign of the flagging system.

    Perhaps allow that player that was attacked and not killed a period of time in which they can report the attack to a guard, and upon that report, the player gains that small amount of corruption. It's just a random thought at this stage (as I agree that attacking players at random should have potential to generate corruption), and I am sure it will have issues with it, but the premise is promising, imo.
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    nuro wrote: »
    If you are equal in level / power , then you really don't have much of an excuse to not fight back. Its really not bullying if its equal in that sense and also numbers wise.

    I'm very much looking forward to the group PvP in the game. I absolutely suck at 1v1, and will likely lose against anyone, regardless of level. So, I won't be bothering to fight back. If someone attacks me, then they're turning red, and a Bounty Hunter's coming for them. That's the only way I'm getting revenge on them. So, I lose a few more resources by doing it - sob sob sob.

    There are a lot of people that will purposely not fight back so that any would be attacker needs to gain corruption in order to get the kill.

    A lot of people will make the split second decision based on what they are carrying as well - they may well have a good chance of winning the fight, but decide to let the play gain that corruption, then come back in a few minutes and kill their assailant who then gets 4 times the death penalty.

    The thing I think people are forgetting is - you always have a choice as to whether or not you gain corruption. If you attack someone and they don't fight back, you can always break off the fight. You only gain corruption when you kill the player.

    My two worries with corruption pvp are this. Non-combatants gain a lot of detriments when they die, the stat, loot chance, hp/mana, and exp tax are really rough. I don't see myself ever wanting to die as a non-combatant even if it means giving someone corruption. Especially if they are a group of players, only one person will get corruption even though they were all attacking you.

    I wish corruption was gained upon attacking a non-combatant. Not enough to turn you red but enough that it stacks up. You can choose to stop fighting but if you continuously attack green players that little bit of corruption will stack up and make you red.

    While I get what you are saying, this causes mechanical errors.

    If attacking a player generates corruption, that player that was attacked can't flag as a combatant by fighting back - as you don't flag as a combatant for fighting a player that has corruption.

    This would require a complete redesign of the flagging system.

    Perhaps allow that player that was attacked and not killed a period of time in which they can report the attack to a guard, and upon that report, the player gains that small amount of corruption. It's just a random thought at this stage (as I agree that attacking players at random should have potential to generate corruption), and I am sure it will have issues with it, but the premise is promising, imo.

    From what was told to me by @Fuppo Headhunter on the discord, the game will have a button to flag yourself at any time because as you said attacking as a non combatant into a corrupted does not flag you. I had this same issue last night when talking on discord lol.

    Also I would be down for a reporting system that stacks up reports until the current life they were committed on expires. So you need to do it asap if you really want to get them corrupted.
    8vf24h7y7lio.jpg
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    Bricktop wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    nuro wrote: »
    If you are equal in level / power , then you really don't have much of an excuse to not fight back. Its really not bullying if its equal in that sense and also numbers wise.

    I'm very much looking forward to the group PvP in the game. I absolutely suck at 1v1, and will likely lose against anyone, regardless of level. So, I won't be bothering to fight back. If someone attacks me, then they're turning red, and a Bounty Hunter's coming for them. That's the only way I'm getting revenge on them. So, I lose a few more resources by doing it - sob sob sob.

    There are a lot of people that will purposely not fight back so that any would be attacker needs to gain corruption in order to get the kill.

    A lot of people will make the split second decision based on what they are carrying as well - they may well have a good chance of winning the fight, but decide to let the play gain that corruption, then come back in a few minutes and kill their assailant who then gets 4 times the death penalty.

    The thing I think people are forgetting is - you always have a choice as to whether or not you gain corruption. If you attack someone and they don't fight back, you can always break off the fight. You only gain corruption when you kill the player.

    Lol well let's hope it doesn't become the meta game for most people to just stand still and let people go red on them. If the devs don't incentivize dying as a flagged player enough and everybody is just standing there letting people go red on them I would be worried about the health of the game. The devs should really focus on making sure there is actually incentive for people to flag. Corruption is there to prevent griefing/camping not PvP altogether.

    And let's also hope it takes more than "a few minutes" to run back to an area you were in when you get killed. Since there are no fast travels and the world is massive there shouldn't be a situation where someone goes red on somebody and two minutes later while they are working off the corruption they have to fight the same person again who is now conveniently ready to actually fight. That wouldn't work very well would it, especially for world bosses. It should take someone a solid 10-15 mins to get back to their grind spot to prevent people from gaming the system like that.

    I agree that this would suck if it became the meta.

    This is why Intrepid are building in levers to this system, so they can influence people's decisions here. They want most people to fight back, and have said this in the past. But they also want some people to not fight back, otherwise bounty hunting is worthless.

    To facilitate this, they are able to alter many aspects of the penalties associated with death. If they find that people are not fighting back as often as they would like, they can (and will) alter an aspect of the penalty when killed as a non-combatant in order to encourage more people to want to fight back.

    If they find that they want more people out harvesting to fight back, they will simply increase the raw materials you drop off killed as a non-combatant, and lower the percentage you drop while a combatant.

    They will have a target they want to hit for these things, and we should expect the ratio of penalties to alter a fair amount so that they can hit those targets.

    Edit to add; the reason I think a few minutes will be all that is needed to get to most open world areas after being killed is because Intrepid don't want to see death being used as a means of fast travel.

    While the penalties go a long way to this end, that only works if fast travel via death doesnt take you very far.

    If you want to get to the other side of the world, and dying in the right spot will take 15 minutes off that, then obviously it's worth doing. Even 10 minutes is worth it.

    The best way to counter this is to have respawning locations that are no more than 10 minutes travel from each other, meaning players will respawning somewhere within 5 minutes travel time from where they were killed.

    Obviously, this only applies to open world, not dungeons. The type of play where you kill a player or group to take over their spot is likely to only be viable in dungeons anyway.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Percimes wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    The thing I think people are forgetting is - you always have a choice as to whether or not you gain corruption. If you attack someone and they don't fight back, you can always break off the fight. You only gain corruption when you kill the player.

    So, if you attack someone while he's fighting a mob and he doesn't fight back you can keep helping the mob but leave him the honour of the kill and suffer no penalty? Sounds like a good way to eliminate the competition in an area for the duration of their corps run.
    Yeah, you can.

    If it becomes an issue though, Intrepid could quite easily just alter corruption gain so that anyone that has attacked a player in the 10 seconds or so before they die gains corruption.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    nuro wrote: »
    If you are equal in level / power , then you really don't have much of an excuse to not fight back. Its really not bullying if its equal in that sense and also numbers wise.

    I'm very much looking forward to the group PvP in the game. I absolutely suck at 1v1, and will likely lose against anyone, regardless of level. So, I won't be bothering to fight back. If someone attacks me, then they're turning red, and a Bounty Hunter's coming for them. That's the only way I'm getting revenge on them. So, I lose a few more resources by doing it - sob sob sob.

    There are a lot of people that will purposely not fight back so that any would be attacker needs to gain corruption in order to get the kill.

    A lot of people will make the split second decision based on what they are carrying as well - they may well have a good chance of winning the fight, but decide to let the play gain that corruption, then come back in a few minutes and kill their assailant who then gets 4 times the death penalty.

    The thing I think people are forgetting is - you always have a choice as to whether or not you gain corruption. If you attack someone and they don't fight back, you can always break off the fight. You only gain corruption when you kill the player.

    My two worries with corruption pvp are this. Non-combatants gain a lot of detriments when they die, the stat, loot chance, hp/mana, and exp tax are really rough. I don't see myself ever wanting to die as a non-combatant even if it means giving someone corruption. Especially if they are a group of players, only one person will get corruption even though they were all attacking you.

    I wish corruption was gained upon attacking a non-combatant. Not enough to turn you red but enough that it stacks up. You can choose to stop fighting but if you continuously attack green players that little bit of corruption will stack up and make you red.

    While I get what you are saying, this causes mechanical errors.

    If attacking a player generates corruption, that player that was attacked can't flag as a combatant by fighting back - as you don't flag as a combatant for fighting a player that has corruption.

    This would require a complete redesign of the flagging system.

    Perhaps allow that player that was attacked and not killed a period of time in which they can report the attack to a guard, and upon that report, the player gains that small amount of corruption. It's just a random thought at this stage (as I agree that attacking players at random should have potential to generate corruption), and I am sure it will have issues with it, but the premise is promising, imo.

    From what was told to me by Fuppo Headhunter on the discord, the game will have a button to flag yourself at any time because as you said attacking as a non combatant into a corrupted does not flag you. I had this same issue last night when talking on discord lol.

    Also I would be down for a reporting system that stacks up reports until the current life they were committed on expires. So you need to do it asap if you really want to get them corrupted.
    There is no confirmation of a button, and there is a comment from Steven stating all the ways you shift between flag states, with no mention at all of a button.

    While there is one for the pre-alpha build, that exists purely because the flagging system has not been developed.
  • WarthWarth Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    nuro wrote: »
    If you are equal in level / power , then you really don't have much of an excuse to not fight back. Its really not bullying if its equal in that sense and also numbers wise.

    I'm very much looking forward to the group PvP in the game. I absolutely suck at 1v1, and will likely lose against anyone, regardless of level. So, I won't be bothering to fight back. If someone attacks me, then they're turning red, and a Bounty Hunter's coming for them. That's the only way I'm getting revenge on them. So, I lose a few more resources by doing it - sob sob sob.

    There are a lot of people that will purposely not fight back so that any would be attacker needs to gain corruption in order to get the kill.

    A lot of people will make the split second decision based on what they are carrying as well - they may well have a good chance of winning the fight, but decide to let the play gain that corruption, then come back in a few minutes and kill their assailant who then gets 4 times the death penalty.

    The thing I think people are forgetting is - you always have a choice as to whether or not you gain corruption. If you attack someone and they don't fight back, you can always break off the fight. You only gain corruption when you kill the player.

    My two worries with corruption pvp are this. Non-combatants gain a lot of detriments when they die, the stat, loot chance, hp/mana, and exp tax are really rough. I don't see myself ever wanting to die as a non-combatant even if it means giving someone corruption. Especially if they are a group of players, only one person will get corruption even though they were all attacking you.

    I wish corruption was gained upon attacking a non-combatant. Not enough to turn you red but enough that it stacks up. You can choose to stop fighting but if you continuously attack green players that little bit of corruption will stack up and make you red.

    While I get what you are saying, this causes mechanical errors.

    If attacking a player generates corruption, that player that was attacked can't flag as a combatant by fighting back - as you don't flag as a combatant for fighting a player that has corruption.

    This would require a complete redesign of the flagging system.

    Perhaps allow that player that was attacked and not killed a period of time in which they can report the attack to a guard, and upon that report, the player gains that small amount of corruption. It's just a random thought at this stage (as I agree that attacking players at random should have potential to generate corruption), and I am sure it will have issues with it, but the premise is promising, imo.

    From what was told to me by Fuppo Headhunter on the discord, the game will have a button to flag yourself at any time because as you said attacking as a non combatant into a corrupted does not flag you. I had this same issue last night when talking on discord lol.

    Also I would be down for a reporting system that stacks up reports until the current life they were committed on expires. So you need to do it asap if you really want to get them corrupted.
    There is no confirmation of a button, and there is a comment from Steven stating all the ways you shift between flag states, with no mention at all of a button.

    While there is one for the pre-alpha build, that exists purely because the flagging system has not been developed.

    yeah he mentioned it in a Video, that flagging yourself can be done through pressing a single button. He used "F" as an example. Should have been either the Asmongold/TimTheTatman or Shroud interview.
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