Dev Discussion #24 - Overgearing

ashleyyn

Why not reduce the equipment attributes and balance the equipment attributes so that you don’t need to over-equip it, but it is beneficial to the life of the game. When the progress of a game is extremely slow, the life of the game will be longer. The progress of the game is fast, the gap between the top-level personnel and the downstream personnel is too large, and the players have no sense of experience. What about the game? This will lose many players.
Over-equipment means that there will be a big gap in the equipment attribute gap. In future games, although equipment is part of the core, its attributes should be lowered and let him become a support, rather than the player having a huge gap in equipment gap .

ashleyyn

gunmandude2 wrote: »

Overgearing is something I dislike when I play through a game the first time. I like to have an appropriate challenge, instead of just steamrolling my way through everything.

Yes, over-equipment will greatly increase the player's equipment or demand. For example, WOW, when the player is over-equipped, it will greatly reduce the difficulty of the game and make the game no fun.
In the AOC game, there may be similarities in Sword Art Online animation, but I want to point out that in Sword Art Online, the equipment is not over-equipped. Some rare equipment can be obtained at low or high levels, but this equipment has unique characteristics. The characteristics are irreplaceable even after the adventure is completed. This is due to the gap in equipment attributes and its narrowing, so that the gap between game players in the game equipment is not too large, but the difficulty and difficulty of obtaining the equipment makes the equipment unique The value of the equipment in the game will not change even if a long time has passed. The value of equipment in the game will remain a part of the life of the game, not like WOW, when the player owns this equipment. There will be no interest in this game, this is a vicious circle.

moeru

considering that the discussion was made last month i'll give my full opinion about gear systems.in the consideration that there is room to change some mechanics

i always disliked the idea of level limitation for gears, you can roughly translate level as improvement and the sheer number of improvements you had isn't the main factor in the capability of using anything.

however stats are totally relatable. if i don't have enought strength, how am i suposed to use X item to it's fullest.

one system that i never saw would be total equip stats. for example.

all my gear together has a power requirement of 400, but i only have 300.
in theory you should be allowed to put it because 400 is the requirement to use 100% of it's efficacy.
think it like you can lift a 20 kg of weapon, but you can't fight correctly with a 20 kg weapon.

same can be used to defensive gears

if i'm using a dexterity set of hard leather or something like this.
and it has a 200 dexterity requirement, but i only have 150
in this case i would not be able to use it to fullest because i wouldn't have the agility, or reflexes to use the armor properly,
i.e.:
this type of armor isn't able to receive a direct impact, but they can be used to nullify the attack if you are capable of repositioning your body. which may redirect the attack or turn it in only a graze.

anyway, the best system for gearing in AoC in my opinion would be something like this:
if my overall gear needs 1000 power, 250 dexterity and 400 constitution. but i have 700 power, 200 dexterity and 250 constitution.
i would have 70% of power requirements, 80% of dexterity and 62,5% of constitution resulting in something like 70,83% of the total efficacy required ( by raw stats would be 69,69696969% "100% not intentional, but nice" ) to use the gear to it fullest. then you could apply an table like if you have 80% of total efficacy you manage to gain xx% of the gear atributes. for a little of realism the table would be an exponential.

that way everyone in the game would win.

-research players ( i like to call then like this because they tend to spend a great time planing and studying new non-meta builds ) would have their fun trying to find OP "secret" combinations of overall gears for every aspect of the game i.e. you could have an absolute broken build ( class + stats + gears ) for a certain dungeon that is uterly trash in every other place of the game.

-hardcore players would go for most efficient combination at moment.

-role playing would have 1 more realistic thing in their world.

-casual gamers wouldn't be left too far behind.

-developers would have an easier time balancing since they would have 2 forms of balance for the classes without having to nerf them directly, they can adjust the correlation table or increase specific stats to give more proeficiency to some classes and less to the others without denying role playing gamers to go for a dagger wielding minstrel, or mace wielding assassin.

-stingy players that keep saying i want to play it hard my level 0 first character but don't want others to have advantage in their second or third character would see some limitations.

i don't know how much complexity it would apply to the code, but i imagine would be something like 2~~3 new variables for every gear and the counters for the player, however it would solve the overgearing problem in a more "fair" solution.


sorry for the long post

OnlyOne

TurboX wrote: »

For me, if i want a game where everyone is equal and fair all capable of doing the same damage and having gear give minimal to no true power swings i'd play a MOBA. I want variability, I want uniqueness, I don't want equality just fairness.

TurboX put in words exactly what I think about twinking. I'm definitely one who appreciates uniqueness in a player's gear. But I would add that there be some form of balance so as to not make a character become overpowered to a point where there is no point in investing time in other loot.

consultant

Not quite sure why you are asking this question. Retail wow over gears and it is a design mistake.

Lots of players looked down at over gearing or in WoW heirlooms cause since your toon is so over powered toons have a tendency to only used a few offensive abilities instead of full array of abilities. So players would hit max level and not hae the appropriate skill to do herioc dungeouns and raids in general cause spent entire time leveling pushing like four or five buttons.

Another thing I wnat to say is if you over gear a toon and allow it to say be 25% more effective than usual then that in essence is a 25% percent experience boost Cause you kill every thing 25% faster.

This goes back to how long should the leveling process be. Already mentioned in another post about how toons really do not spend enough time at lets say level 20 to get all the level 20 gear. so during the leveling process you will have a wide array of gear different levels I mean.

In another post also mention how WoW leveling is so overpowered that upgrades donot feel like upgrades.
I am going to exaggerate a lot but just so you get the jist of what I am saying. Lets say you use one ability 2 times to kill mob....so to kill 3 mobs it takes letsay 6 fireballs. So you get a piece of gear that is numercially an upgrade but well it still takes 6 fireballs to kill 3 mobs no difference so items that you get are kind of worthless. Now if you were undergeared and you got same upgrade then it would be more noticiable.

Players should be allowed to min max their toons but that over all should not make them lets say more than 10 percent more effetive or it just makes thme to over powered.

Leveling process should be at least somewhat challenging if it can be somewhat challenging and have your toon twinked then yes it is ok. But againast over powered low level toons

TurboX

Only problem is you make it sound like a job, people play games to escape some of the realities of the world. Is it so much to ask to not be told exactly how I have to play a game? If you don't want it to be easy, don't twink? If you don't want people in groups carrying you, don't group with them? (do you also avoid playing with highly skilled players since it makes it easier?).

Point is, too many games are going down the path of calculating everything to a decimal and taking out the various methods to do it any way other then be the designed calculation. Lets get back to flexibility and god forbid some fun. Honestly even pvp i'm fine with gear being fairly impactful to the outcome. This isn't a damn MOBA or FPS game, if I work extra hard to get gear then let a person enjoy it. Honestly it helps push people to dream of doing the same just as much as it negatively drives people when they get smoked.

I got out of WOW pvp back when they made gear basically useless.

You can still put some general common sense limitations that will govern the ultimate power curve (gear reqs w/ the rarer gear having a wider range of lvls to reward people who get it). Honestly i feel like people demanding no twinking are similar to communists vs. capitalist's. Lets not force everyone to be the same...

moeru

consultant wrote: »

Not quite sure why you are asking this question. Retail wow over gears and it is a design mistake.

Lots of players looked down at over gearing or in WoW heirlooms cause since your toon is so over powered toons have a tendency to only used a few offensive abilities instead of full array of abilities. So players would hit max level and not hae the appropriate skill to do herioc dungeouns and raids in general cause spent entire time leveling pushing like four or five buttons.

Another thing I wnat to say is if you over gear a toon and allow it to say be 25% more effective than usual then that in essence is a 25% percent experience boost Cause you kill every thing 25% faster.

This goes back to how long should the leveling process be. Already mentioned in another post about how toons really do not spend enough time at lets say level 20 to get all the level 20 gear. so during the leveling process you will have a wide array of gear different levels I mean.

In another post also mention how WoW leveling is so overpowerede that upgrades do feel like upgrades.
I am going to exaggerate a lot but just so you get the jist of what I am saying. Lets say you use one ability 2 times to kill mob....so to kill 3 mobs it takes letsay 6 fireballs. So you get a piece of gear that is numercially an upgrade but well it still takes 6 fireballs to kill 3 mobs no difference so items that you get are kind of worthless. Now if you were undergeared and you got same upgrade then it would be more noticiable.

Players should be allowed to min max their toons but that over all should not make them lets say more than 10 percent more effetive or it just makes thme to over powered.

Leveling process should be at least somewhat challenging if it can be somewhat challenging and have your toon twinked then yes it is ok. But againast over powered low level toons

really good, i just fear that the majority will read 25% more effective as 25% more stats.
it's really hard to explain power spike to some people.

and normally the ones that complain about someone gilding their characters are people who want to do the same but don't have the condition ( be it time or money ), nothing you do will change their mind because is a subconcious thing from human nature to hate others doing what they want but can't.

Trenbolonex

Over gearing is fine within reason. As many people have pointed out you shouldn't have max level gear at say level 19. Indivduals at that level though should be able to do dungeons, craft, etc and be able to max out that chars potential at that level of bracket. I think wow is a good example where lower level enchants, gearing, and heirlooms can be used to provide a fun "over-geared" experiance for players.

Zorr

I'm not necessarily a big fan of overgearing...in my opinion, it can easily make early game content irrelevant which could be a detriment for enticing new people to the game...depends on exactly what is meant by overgearing though and how exactly it is implemented....

LeRebelle

I think overgearing must not be forbidden but it must have some drawbacks.

As I come from Lineage 2, I liked the system of penalties that was inflicted to the owner of a stuff that he normally can't wear.

L2 has a system of grade (Which was simply a range of lvl. No grade : 0-20, D grade : 20-40, C grade : 40-52...). Then imagine you want to equip a weapon grade C while you are lvl 15, you will have a penalty lvl 2 (The number of grade between your current grade (No grade) and the target grade (C)).

A penalty (For a weapon*) consists in some malus to your damage, accuracy, critical rate / critical power, speed... which increase function of the grade difference. Then, it's globally better to wear a superior grade (But not too much) but not totally broken.

*: Penalties for armor parts are a little bit different, but there are.

But to weight my answer, there was a little problem to this system. With some good buffs, a low level can easily handle a 2/3 penalties weapon without being really impacted by the penalty. In my opinion, this is something to think about to avoid some broken things.

consultant

Just wanted to mention that getting almost fully geared like as soon as you get to level ten you get full set of level ten gear plus big stacks of consumables cause you have high level toon that has gold to send to level toon is not over gearing.

Think maybe company should make educational videos about thing like power leveling and the things to be mind ful. Vidoes on questing that explains the different types of quests and intents. I mean a toon could power level and in the process kill the same mob a lot of times or they can take a little bit longer and do ti by a variety of things. As it pertains to the topic overgearing should warn players to be mindful of being overpowered. As in questing and farming and killing mobs is a good way t target practice ine hone in your skills. Not going to happen if you kill things to fast. So practicing cc chains ans targeting system and combos on mobs in the open world is a good way be more skilled character when you get to max level and be more apt to raid and do more difficult content. That way it is the players choice.