Dev Discussion #24 - Overgearing

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Comments

  • Its simply breaking the relationship of effort vs reward.
    Now if you want to replace that effort vs reward with risk vs reward then I have no problem.
    I consider it like giving pro tools to a child with no training.
    It would and should have a high chance of blowing up in their face and ending badly.

    If you have no intention on replacing effort vs reward with risk vs reward,
    then I am against it.
    As all it would do is encourage and embolden those who want something for nothing into everything for nothing.
  • We discussed it in the guild and I have the same opinion as "Theogermal"

    (Copy, but i have same opinion!)
    Having restricted Over Gearing, where the stats on the gear get better as your level increases, does a similar thing, but instead of preparing multiple sets of gear, you would only need to prepare one set that you would then use throughout the whole leveling process. Having the stats on the gear restricted by your characters level will allow low level PVP balance to remain more constant, and allow someone of greater skill level to still have a chance of defeating someone with better gear than them.

    Which ever way things go, I very sincerely hope that you do NOT go for unrestricted Over Gearing, as the early-mid game balance will be completely ruined.

    Personally, I do think that No Over Gearing is the way to go, and those who have progressed further into the game will have the means to acquire superior gear for their twinks.
  • At minimum, I think that being able to trade between your characters is a good function to have. As for finding an amazing breastplate on a high level and then gifting it to your newer character, level requirements aren't something I get upset about. Though, if you people have a new way/system to pitch then I would love to hear it. I may be indoctrinated into this industry standard.
  • If u have reached max level with some chars, then its maybe fine, but for the first character i dont like overgearing
  • NixalNixal Member, Braver of Worlds
    As soon as the game allows to trade items between characters twinking will happen. Whether you like it or not what is the point of discussing it?
  • Sorcres wrote: »
    We discussed it in the guild and I have the same opinion as "Theogermal"

    (Copy, but i have same opinion!)
    Having restricted Over Gearing, where the stats on the gear get better as your level increases, does a similar thing, but instead of preparing multiple sets of gear, you would only need to prepare one set that you would then use throughout the whole leveling process. Having the stats on the gear restricted by your characters level will allow low level PVP balance to remain more constant, and allow someone of greater skill level to still have a chance of defeating someone with better gear than them.

    Which ever way things go, I very sincerely hope that you do NOT go for unrestricted Over Gearing, as the early-mid game balance will be completely ruined.

    Personally, I do think that No Over Gearing is the way to go, and those who have progressed further into the game will have the means to acquire superior gear for their twinks.

    Yep, i think this would be the best :wink:
  • ThedeadnightThedeadnight Member, Phoenix Initiative, Avatar of the Phoenix
    edited November 14
    Probably an unpopular opinion/style but I quite enjoy getting way over geared for content. In most games I play I'll spend an overabundant ammount of time in the low level area beefing up my charecter as much as possible, grinding for gold or whatever to get the best gear available to me and then completly smash through the next few areas. It takes longer than going through the content in a more conventional style but I enjoy grinding. Start off with an easy grind then have an easy run of the game for the rest of the story. I generally try to avoid fair fights when possible. Not saying that I only fight when I have an advantage, I quite enjoy trying to solo dungeon bosses or killing mobs far stronger than me too. I prefer fights with a large power gap either direction. Even fights bore me.
  • No overgearing unless system able to reduce the effect of the gear or penalize the user in other aspect to avoid overpowering. Well, you can't expect a freshman shooter able to exploit the full effect of a high-level / heavy longbow like a veteran marksman, the freshman will end up injured himself or easily exhaust. Hence, overgearing is a NO unless system able to penalize the user similar to example above or other aspects such as encumbered, losing HP or MP, low attack rate and etc.

    Allow overgearing will make the widen the gap and contradiction among Solo player and Social player; newbie and experienced . Yes, AoC is building in the vision to encourage interaction among players, yet it should be built on foundation of fairness. Don't forget the character stats is heavily depending on equipments.

    Imagine this, an experienced player created a new character after maxing his/her main character. The new character is only level 10 but already equipping level 40 gear, what will happened if he/she PK-ing a fresh player who playing his first character of level 20 wearing level 20 gears? And how the PK result encourage newcomers into AOC?

    Futhermore, it will be destroy the economy of lower level material. Since everyone can wear top level gears starting from level 1, who will care to craft lower level gear, as there is no market demand for it at all.
  • I don't think twinking is a problem, as long as it's gear from that specific level.. lets say like in wow people were gearing a lvl 19 with the best of the best gear for that level and battled it out with other players around that level.. then i don't think it's a problem.. but if a lvl 1 can wear lets say lvl 60 gear then that's where we have problems.. because what is the point of the levels then?

    in a game with different gear theres always gonna be best in slot items and min/maxing.. even if it's just by 0.0000001% then it's still better.
    so no dont think twinking is a problem, only if lower levels can be better than a max leveled character, with the same items on, because their stats might scale more than a max leveled characters stats..

    twinking yes(for that specific level)... Giving low leveled characters higher level gear no!
  • T ElfT Elf Member, Braver of Worlds

    [NA+OCE] LieutenantToast11/12/2020
    The finest sword the land has ever seen...in the hands of a novice adventurer like you?!
    It could happen :wink:
    eZC6mjP.gif
    Formerly T-Elf

  • There should be rare gear at every level, but that gear should be obtainable by people actually of that level. I would never want to see gear that is obtained only by higher level players just to be sold to lower level players. I want to at least be able to earn my gear if possible, not have to buy it because it's better. And I would feel like I'm missing out knowing that there is better gear available, but I just can't afford it because it's my first play through.

    One thing I would be okay with is an XP gear set to boost leveling, but in terms of quality of stats, this gear should only be satisfactory, not amazing. A trade-off.
  • My experience with twinking in different games are limited, however the games where i've been able to twink i've enjoyed the experience, there have been situations where i don't think it should be a part of the game, and i'll touch on that later.

    Games where i've been able to twink is in World of Warcraft, Diablo 2 and 3.

    I twinked properly in WoW where i played lv70 twinks when maxlv was 85-90, i personally had a ton of fun playing this character as i was playing with and against other that were doing the same thing. I locked my experience and went into BGs with others who had locked their XP. Now within those BGs there where people who were new to twinking, those who had full BiS (best in slot) and so the balance was wonky ofc, but the exact same thing was happening at max level anyway so i don't feel like that's fair critique. I enjoyed plenty of duels outside the main capitol vs other 70twinks. But one of my favorite things to do on my twinks was to travel to higher level areas and gank people 5+ higher levels than me, sometimes i bit of more than i could chew ofc, but most of the time i was coming out ontop, thanks to my gear (levels still play a big role).

    I've never been a fan of people ganking lowbies cuz in the games i've played, level has played a big part of a characters power level, so in WoW i saw and was the victim of max level players ganking midlevel players multiple times, even resorting to camping the corpse and chasing after them when they ressed. This is where i return to the point i was gonna make and thats where people abuse their power to grief those who stand absolutely no chance, especially when it comes to level difference. The main topic here is ofc the gear, and that's why i also wanna add the vital part of my experience with WoW heirloom system and normal battlegrounds while leveling. The heirlooms are items that grow in power together with the character leveling up, maintaining an already high power level on each item (u could equip multiple). These items were designed to make it easier to level up ur character since u got more XP and great stat boosts. They were only obtainable by maxlv players but were ofc only used for leveling chars. The issue here was that u could use them in battlegrounds without any hinderance at all. U were now put into a place where all other players were normal players, with and without heirlooms, first time players and veterans, players who rolled a new realm. The difference in stats and power isn't even remotely close. A char without the looms going up vs 1 loomed char is like playing 1v3 while still being a 1v1.

    Basically, what i want to say is that i personally LIKE twinking and being able to get powerful gear on a lower level character as long as it's in PvE. When it comes to PvP it's a different story and is entirely based on the context and situation. World PvP and ganking i feel should be unlimited (jst gear based) while arenas and battlegrounds while leveling should be segregated in some way, maybe both gear power, level and (un)locked XP.
  • Principal of Diminishing Returns. Simply add a log (lvl) of the overgear and move on. So you can give a lvl 1 character a lvl 50 piece of gear, but the returns will be more like a 1.7 lvl increase. THAT's not going to over balance the game at all. BTW a lvl 2 piece of armor would be a 1.3 lvl increase. So there will be a BIT of increase, but not a LOT of increase. I also like softcaps that use steep curves to prevent overkill while allowing players to do what they want.
  • daodao Member
    edited November 15
    Quintus wrote: »

    Obtaining better gear should be the highest pursuit.

    I agree with the thinking behind much of your post. However i vehemently disagree with this statement. The highest pursuit should be what each character knows and can accomplish.

    Skills > Gear

    Why do we need gear progression at all? What problem are we solving with it that it is worth the complications? The very title of this discussion "overgearing" presumes a problem out of the gate.
  • TinyhealsTinyheals Member
    edited November 15
    From what i understand, Ashes of Creation does not intend for leveling alts to be any different from leveling your first character. So that makes me question, what is the purpose for owergearing?

    When gear does not have any lvl restrictions it takes away the joy of finding new gear and new apperances.
    How will the stas be relevant for the jurney towards lvl 50 with overgearing?
    Wont i be missing out on a lot of different apperances and progression if i just go with endgame gear?
    Wont it make much of the gear in the lower level less or not relevant?
    Will gear have set bonuses and how wil that affect owergearing?
    Do Ashes intend for dungeons in lower lvl to drop gear relevant to end game?
    If the gear are restricted in lower lvl for balance sake, then why have overgearing?
    Wont owergearing affect the players learning curve?
    Would it not be a bad experience for new players and make you feel less relevant?
    Can this affect the choice of who you want in your group? Will players choose Alts over new players main characters since they have endgame gear, and can make the run more smooth? (Long term)

    I belive ashes intends for every lvl to be relevant to the game. Not about rushing to max lvl and not caring about the jurney to get there.
    Like in BDO you just have the boss gear, any other gear is useless. Alts can wear the boss gear you have on your main, and the only ejoyable part of the progression is the combat.
    World of Warcraft its heirloom is about speeding up the lvling process as much as possible.

    Me personally love playing around with numbers and midmaxing gear and specializations.
    I used to like the gearprogression in Warhammer Online Age of Reconing. Elderscrolls online also have some interresting aspects of gear and crafting.

    Overgearing would also take away that feeling of getting a higher lvl item that is 2-3 lvls above you and you cant use it until you reach that lvl. It makes you push harder towards reaching that lvl so you can use that sexy weapon or epic looking chest, shoulder or helm that you want to try on. In mmorpg you always need something to look forward to, and a feeling of progression. Obtaining gear, and changeing your looks is so much of the fun. Dont take it away by making you wear any lvl gear at lvl 1.

    Im afraid it could hurt the crafters since you can skip gearprogression. I can imagine there will be currency grinders and those who sell that for irl money. Then players can just spend irl money to buy high lvl gear, mby end game gear for their character and just speed to endgame. It might not hurt the game from the start, but for new players joineing mby a year or 2 later, can end up having a bad experience.

    Also the gear should be making your low lvl character look like a low lvl character, if your lvl 1 and look like an endgame character it would also take away some of the epic feel to the progression of your character and affect the way you feel about your surroundings in a negativ way. Dont want an mmo where every player is looking like kings and queens regardles of their lvl. Hope they have some restrictions to cosmetics to so you cant look like a high tier soldier right away. Mby like certain lvl or quality on your gear to use certain cosmetics.

    Might aswell just have normal lvl restrictions and make players change their gear and explore the different apperances.Enjoy all the aspects of the game. It shold take some time to get good itmes and grinding and putting in the work should be rewarding. Apperances were slow and steady increasing the badass look of your character as you lvl'ed up. Also getting stronger with higher stats for a newly gained 2h weapon feels rly nice.
    I feel like overgearing is a lazy excuse for easy alt progression, and a missed opertunity for content and gear progression and gear building.

    My personal opinion is that gear should have lvl restrictions and make you look forward to the gear thats ahead of you. Make you chase items with the stats you want for your build. Skill and knowledge before gear and lvl.

  • stevejones92stevejones92 Member, Braver of Worlds
    I think overgearing is only bad when it effects other people, such as pvp.

    I think that once a player gains strong items, they shouldn’t have it forever and be able to trade it around.

    As far as gaining strong items for characters, they should be stronger if you are playing above level and weaker if you are playing below level. So if you overgear, then you’ll also never gain any useable items on your playthrough from looting.
  • Sov54Sov54 Member
    edited November 15
    In WoW, for example, it just worked because by the time heirlooms (boosting gear) were implemented, the open world was already dead and the game had become a rush to max level and a raiding simulator.

    In a world with open PvP with penalties, being a new player and having to face overgeared alters, could be a miserable experience. And even if they don't get affected by them, it just trivializes the world and add a "rush" feeling to leveling, removing risks and rewards of all kind.

  • I think it can work.

    2 of the examples I've seen it work in is WoW and Warhammer online. In WAR there was potential gear people could get for twinking that the average player wouldn't have got and people would need to go out of their way to get it. This is the kind I like where everyone can potentially get it so its not really unfair.

    WoW on the other hand, their Heirlooms would dominate in the first 3 tiers but would become less one sided in later tiers.

    It just really all depends on what is potentially available in certain level ranges.
  • maouwmaouw Member
    edited November 15
    I like overgearing for alts - but I admit that it makes me rush through content.
    Most games have level/stat requirements on all gear, which I think works well - and I prefer this over "soul-bound"/tradelocked gear.

    I want to comment on the social aspect of overgearing too!
    While it's really nice to be able to hand a +7 weapon to a new friend, that new person will not be able to appreciate what goes into a +7 weapon and will grow bored of the game more quickly - their experience will be ruined.

    Some fresh suggestions to curb overgearing:
    • tiered enhancement - level 0-20 gear can only enhance to maximum +3. Next tier +5. Next tier +6. etc.
    • Wear-in mechanic - (Like how leather shoes mold to your specific feet) gear has a "wear-in" proficiency bonus that bonds with each player the more they use it. This means if another player equips it, they will get most of the stats but will not be able to make use of the proficiency bonus because the gear has grown accustomed to someone else. This has really interesting economic implications (2nd hand gear is a THING) - perhaps players can give the gear to an artisan who can use materials to reset the wear-in?
    • Proficiency Requirement on enhanced gear - players must increase their proficiency with a weapon in order to equip enhanced versions of the weapons.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • Why in an open PvP game should overgearing be allowed? Either yes, because you want low level chars engage higher level ones, or no because in a battle of same lvl chars you don’t want new players to be at a disadvantage. I say no, it shouldn’t be allowed. Have new characters competitive with same lvl characters, not with higher level ones.
  • Overgearing in a pvp game is asking for trouble. Unless you put hard limits in place and and even then.

    Getting jumped by an equal level and naturally fighting back becomes an issue if that guy is the twink of twinks, having superior gear compared to me poor quester/crafter.

    IF the twinking is limited somehow, maybe ok. But full overgearing (even scaled to level) will make noobs turn their back if they are destroyed by some guy and don't even understand what they did wrong.

    In PvE it is more of a philosophical question, if you want the alt / friend to "earn" their gear. That is for everyone to decide for themselves. It does not touch the gameplay of anyone else but my own. And maybe stealing a few world events or open stuff they just kill faster. But that stuff usually returns after a while. There might be problems with that also.

    But overgearing in pvp is potentially giving someone the edge over me (unless they wield a blunt weapon) who maybe would not have had it if they were geared level-appropriately. Personally, I can deal with that, having played games where you could do just that. And I never minded that. If I felt vindictive, I logged in my main and screwed their heads off a few times before returning to my usualy play. Others are different and might have serious issues with that, abandoning or badmouthing the game.

    I mentioned world content before from my personal perspective. People destroying world rares or bosses with their twinks, no longer requiring the same amount of help from others. That will lead to new players being frustrated as well, albeit not after launch or in the 1st year.

    So basically:

    - Overgearing in a limited way (whatever limits there might be, too many possibilities to spell them out): Yes-ish
    - General overgearing: Nope. Not in a pvp game with non-instanced "world" content that is actually worth something.
    - Scaled overgearing/level adjusting is usually still OP, since scaling often errs on the side of "more powerful than an actual item of that level". If you can pull off a balance that overgeared characters only have a small edge, kudos. Do it. :)

  • The factors most important to this discussion i think are (and please enlighten me if there's something i missed):
    1. Newbies becoming instant powerhouses due to powerful friends
    2. power imbalance because some players can just afford the max level gear
    3. incentive for production classes to produce gear at all levels
    4. players who already have good gear not wanting to spend time and money getting new gear but wanting to play an alt character at an appropriate power

    I think overgearing is done well in games like GW2 and diablo 3. You can equip it but you can't make full use of the gear. I think over gearing is great to reduce unnecessary grinding for alts/friends/guild mates who you can pass down gear to. Or even as a player who wants to "future proof" their market purchase. It's not likely for a new player to have enough money to buy max level gear anyway so that'll manage itself.

    Another problem that over gearing presents is that production classes will not be incentivized to produce level appropriate gear (especially after the game has been active for a bit) since anyone can use any level gear.

    I think a good solution that helps everyone is to have over gearing give a penalty that would make it less optimal than level appropriate gearing. That way production players will be incentivized to use level appropriate equipment and thus drive demand for production. It'll also let players who have higher level gear but don't have the incentive to find new gear and willing to suffer the less than optimal stats "do their thing".

    I think one of the most important factors that would balance out the sub optimal stats of over gearing but still allowing it to be a viable option is equipment options. For example, if a dagger comes with an attached skill, perhaps the utility of that skill is worth more than the max dmg of the dagger especially if that skill isn't available on gear of the character's current level.

    There's many factors to consider here and i think this is a solution that does well to address them.
  • I'd like to see the gear scale with character level similar to WoWs heirloom gear. This way I don't have to worry so much about loot drops while questing but I would like it to be maybe mid tier. This way I still get excited from random drops or crafted times.

    If my gear was too good my focus would shift.

    I know for me that if I was level 1 and got level 50 epic gear, I would definitely use it, without a doubt.

    Then I would try to blow through content until I reached endgame and I think that would kind of defeat what AoC is going for.

    One thing that I'm really looking forward to is slowly leveling. Taking in all the lore and discovering a new world. More modern MMOs seem to streamline the whole leveling and questing aspects. This gives a sense of, "you need to hurry up and get to end game" and really ruins the whole experience.

    Now at the same time having level requirements on gear kind of breaks immersion for me a bit. What about this gear is stopping me from putting it on?

    I'd rather just have it have it's stats lowered than have some arbitrary block put in place that bars me from even putting it on and I do like the idea of alts, friends, family and guildies helping out lower level toons to give them an edge.

    I just would hate to see the gear give so much of an edge that it becomes an escalator that allows you to bypass a bunch of content.
  • ArgantisArgantis Member, Braver of Worlds
    Personally I like overgearing, and having specific PvP brackets for those twinks. In WoW the most fun in PvP I ever had was the level 19 (of 60 cap at the time) bracket. It was easy and cheap to set up a power character in the bracket and many people did it, so it was not unfair.

    I also really liked the Heirloom gear that they introduced later, where the gear would level with the character and increase in power appropriately to rare level (of common, uncommon, rare, epic, legendary). I feel that it is worthwhile to let an alt character be functional but not overly powerful without having to grind the gear.

    One thing I am really skeptical about gear wise in Ashes is that it can get destroyed. I really do not like this concept. You could still keep the heavy investment in resources and repairing along with degradation in stats / performance without it actually getting destroyed. Just going into a broken state that needs to be repaired. Especially with very rare legendary items (and believe me, I am not the type of player that is likely to get these). It just seems wrong that Excalibur would ever need to be repaired, I mean it is a powerful, magical artifact. Even a generic axe from the bronze era could be sharpened and repaired to be fully functional today. I realize that this is not a simulation, but some things do break immersion and this has me pretty nervous for how it will impact my gameplay. Just thought I would put that out there because it relates. I would love to have heirloom gear that could degrade to a zero performance factor, and need heavy resources and possibly questing to repair it, but not actual destruction of the item.

    So lets say that I have my Heirloom Sandals of the MMO Messiah, and I wear them out, maybe I have to find a special leatherworker to repair them. Maybe he needs special material from specific things that take some effort to get. Maybe he will not charge me for the repair but he needs me to do him a favor (wink wink), not that! Get your minds out of the gutter, like go clear a boss from a nearby cave. Avenge a fallen loved one, etc.
  • Overgearing to a small degree I think its fine. I think it should be possible to gear a character a bit stronger than what they normally would/should have. But not too much. Things like higher level enchants or say a slightly high stronger sword than what one would/could normally obtain I think should be possible, even better if the character itself earns it but its much harder to do so. But I think allowing a higher level character say an alt of your own or someone really trusted (perhaps in the family system) can bestow it upon them.

    A character thats say lvl 20 shouldnt be getting say a lvl 40 equivalent sword. But I think theres some leeway for them to get something that would be equivalent to say lvl 21or22 sword of great quality in some manner weither through particular work from that character or something to affect I mentioned above. Im more inclined for the character earning it them self though, but dont want to rule out being assisted in some manner from someone else the character clearly trusts.

    Things like enchants or enhancements to thier existing gear I think should be more flexible in this. Like a good higher fire resist enchantment or something than what would normally equivalent should be more easily possible. Even an alternative to the above where the weapon is enhanced but its temporary. Perhaps some weapon upgrading that the character can earn to overcharge/super sharpen it, perhaps to a point of overdurability. Where it will get to the proper level equivalent when it reaches its normal durability threshold or something.

    Overall, I dont mind overgearing too much, as long as theres a threshold for it, The above example of a sword being of lvl 21or 22 wielded by a lvl 20. If theres some tag to limit that sort of gear so they cant have it in every slot, and can only hold a certain amount like 2 or 3 items like that (like attunements in dnd for example).
    As well as enhancements like enchants with lightning resist or fire damage being a good bit higher potency than whats normal also counting towards this quota. Something like that I think is mostly fine as long as theres some limits in place for it, more so if the character themself earns it somehow, without it just being a simple monetary/resource requirement (though that can still be part of it) would like if some world interaction was needed for the character to do, making it a bit of work so its not just as easy as having x friend make y, or buy z item from somewhere and there you go. Something like a journey for the character they make a bit of dedication to, to earn.
  • I know we already have a Dev Discussion thread about overgearing. I voiced my opinion in the thread as we all have, but I am extremely worried by the anti overgearing responses I have seen inside the thread. I did not want to muddy the Dev Discussion with arguments, but I do feel like some arguments need to be made. The Devs being open to discussion about the direction of the game is great, but I worry that it could be to a fault. If the Devs walked away with the message: "wow, people really don't want overgearing.", and tried to adjust the game around that. Ashes could be another failed MMO experiment.

    I am not mad at people for not wanting overgearing in the game. It makes sounds good on the surface. The reasoning being that you want the game to present both PvE and PvP content as fair as possible, as often as possible. If people don't have access to gear that makes them more powerful than the average player at their level. The game will be more engaging for both sides in PvP, and the fights in PvE can be tuned better. I would agree with that whole heartedly if I thought AoC was a theme park MMO. AoC is not a theme park MMO in the slightest.

    AoC has all of the DNA of a true Sandbox MMO. That is the only reason I am here. That is the only reason I think anyone should be excited about AoC. The end game of a sandbox is not raid logging or participating the the arena/battleground season, for the current patches iLvl gear and mounts. The end game is the endless pursuit of power for your guild and yourself. A well designed sandbox could theoretically not ever have a single content patch and stay good. The content is climbing to the top, and trying to stay there. Overgearing is a integral part of that climb. Not only is is something constantly strive for, having the best gear that money can buy. It is also something that needs upkeep.

    The overgearing system is the end game. The whole reason your guild takes a castle is to tax the area around it. This is to fund the guilds supremacy. To keep the guild on top. The node system is also tied to what can be produced. Making sure that your node, is on top and that others are not is to ensure that you out gear you competition. It is to perpetuate the endless cycle of war. If everyone got to endgame, and had the same gear, there would be nothing to work for long term. Sure people might play in the short term ,and have fun. We all do when a MMO launches. The reason to form a guild an socialize in the long term would be lost.

    Lineage 2 is dead in the west. It was mismanaged into becoming a p2w mess. ArcheAge is a constant let down. Star wars galaxies was changed to become more accessible and thus lost everything that made is special. Eve online is still a fantastic game, but I want a fantasy MMO. I bring up these four MMOs because they have been specifically sited as the inspiration for ashes. They are all sandboxs with a common theme of risk vs reward. The more that theme has been muddied or lost. The worst the games got. Notice that Eve online is the only game that keeps that vision real, and is the only game of the four that is taken seriously as a MMO.

    TLDR:
    I am worried that too many people excited for AoC have not played other sandbox games to the extent that they know what they are arguing. If you have played other sandbox games, I would like to hear some honest arguments against overgearing.
    Give me real examples if possible. Don't just tell me "Because I don't like it".
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  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty
    Because I don't like it.
    south-park-rabble-rabble-rabbl-53b58d315aa49.jpg
  • Yeah I was worried about the anti-"overgearing" sentiments too. The thing is, its not a simple yes or no question that should be asked as there are different ways to "overgear" and some of them work for certain games, and would ruin others.

    For instance, if they copy pasted the WoW twinking template over to Ashes of Creation you wouldn't really have any issues. Twinks in world of warcraft can enter a system allowing them to only fight players of their level range but Ashes does not have that problem. The most such a system would do is make leveling a bit faster and give you a slight edge over other non-twink players but in exchange for spending gold, time, and resources on this power boost. It would be similar to heirlooms without needing to provide any sort of special bonuses like exp or movement speed.

    So to put it plainly, give us level restrictions on gear, but allow access to higher level enchants, consumables, and other bonuses.
  • ariatrasariatras Member
    edited November 16
    Overgearing as they meant it (twinking) is perfectly fine, it is mostly done in instanced battlegrounds anyway. Which you can just as easily skip whilst levelling. If they're even in-game.

    I don't speak for anyone but myself. However what I don't like is that gear is a huge metric for performance in tanking, dps, and healing. Twinking is simply a surface manifestation of that.

    Traditional end-game. Be it PvP or PvE is just layers upon layers of extra gear.
    Tier 1
    Tier 2
    Tier 3
    Etc.

    This system, to me isn't fun. It was fun when I first started MMOs. And there is something to be said for walking around a city square and seeing someone in that wonderfully pretty raid gear.
    In the end, it is simply a hamsterwheel you find yourself in.

    Now you asked for examples other then "Because I don't like it"

    If you go that route, a road which has been walked I don't know how long. You need a few things to make it work. The combat needs to be very engaging and unique. It needs to feel quick and responsive. The boss fights need to be really well done.

    I don't have a great many examples of MMOs I played. But those I did play, all had gear be the primary source of progression.

    World of Warcraft: Does it, and has to as a result squish stats every other expansion. In the middle of the expansion they have to put catch-up mechanics, which essentially invalidates the first raids of that very same expansion. The reason it works for them is not because the system is amazing. But rather the raids, and combat are. I know it's "just tab targetting" but WoW remains the most fluent, responsive mmo I have ever played.

    Star Wars The Old Republic: These also do it. Star Wars is a massively popular ip. As was evident with the launch of that game. They also had a gear based progression system at end-game. But. The combat wasn't as smooth and fluent, and the bossfights weren't as interesting. So the game essentially died and is being kept afloat by whales.

    Wildstar: They also had a similar progression end-game. They even had some unique ideas like the guild vs guild PvP where you could essentially make your own castle. It failed horribly. They had hybrid combat, and whilst this combat felt better then Star Wars's the end-game was atrocious. So many indicators on the floor, you could barely see. It was a mess. This game is obviously dead now.

    I could go on. I have quite a few games I played but never even got to end-game. But from levelling, they had the same thing.


    Now, why did they fail? Is it the progression based on gear? No, of course not. But if that -is- where your power upgrades come from. You better knock the combat, and the fights out of the park. It's risky, and many an MMO failed to do it. As the competition has had years upon years to iterate and add things.

    So I would simply like to see a progression system based on other factors. Not soley on gear. Which indirectly means that twinking won't really exist.

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  • Sathrago wrote: »
    Yeah I was worried about the anti-"overgearing" sentiments too. The thing is, its not a simple yes or no question that should be asked as there are different ways to "overgear" and some of them work for certain games, and would ruin others.

    For instance, if they copy pasted the WoW twinking template over to Ashes of Creation you wouldn't really have any issues. Twinks in world of warcraft can enter a system allowing them to only fight players of their level range but Ashes does not have that problem. The most such a system would do is make leveling a bit faster and give you a slight edge over other non-twink players but in exchange for spending gold, time, and resources on this power boost. It would be similar to heirlooms without needing to provide any sort of special bonuses like exp or movement speed.

    So to put it plainly, give us level restrictions on gear, but allow access to higher level enchants, consumables, and other bonuses.

    I agree. I think lineage 2 nailed it perfectly with the grade system. Allowing you to have a whole level range of gear at specific level mile stones. I know Steven understands this system well, I hope we see it in AoC.
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