Dev Discussion #24 - Overgearing

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  • Sov54Sov54 Member
    edited November 16
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Yeah I was worried about the anti-"overgearing" sentiments too. The thing is, its not a simple yes or no question that should be asked as there are different ways to "overgear" and some of them work for certain games, and would ruin others.

    For instance, if they copy pasted the WoW twinking template over to Ashes of Creation you wouldn't really have any issues. Twinks in world of warcraft can enter a system allowing them to only fight players of their level range but Ashes does not have that problem. The most such a system would do is make leveling a bit faster and give you a slight edge over other non-twink players but in exchange for spending gold, time, and resources on this power boost. It would be similar to heirlooms without needing to provide any sort of special bonuses like exp or movement speed.

    So to put it plainly, give us level restrictions on gear, but allow access to higher level enchants, consumables, and other bonuses.

    I agree. I think lineage 2 nailed it perfectly with the grade system. Allowing you to have a whole level range of gear at specific level mile stones. I know Steven understands this system well, I hope we see it in AoC.

    You too want some restriction on overgearing. I think everyone agreed on that in the devs post.

    So the discussion should be what is overgearing and where to set the boundaries.

    Even an "anti-overgear" guy like me, is not against reasonable gearing of your alts.

    Although I would not use it, as leveling while steamrolling thru content without expectations of gear updrage rapidly becomes a chore to me.

    I also don't enjoy PWNing n00bz, so I'd rather compete on the same level as the rest of people around me.


  • @ariatras I can understand the sentiment of not liking the tiered progression system. It is not for everyone. Magic the gathering is a game where I feel like the cards not not really intended to be on a set tier list where one card is clearly better than the other. Even though these tier lists will be created by players until the the end of time. The designers of MTG clearly intended for cards to have their own trade offs. A somewhat unrelated example, but its the best I can think of at the moment.

    The three examples of gearing systems you have listed are all to the best of my knowledge theme-park MMOs. I have played a lot of WOW, as much Wildstar as I could (RIP), I never played The old republic in protest to what they did to galaxies. The gearing systems of these games is all the same. None of the gear is really tied to the economy or open world. The gearing system exists in two vacuums or a combination of both. You kill raid bosses and get gear as a reward or you kill players in instanced PvP and get gear as a reward. You never have to leave town to get the gear, the state of the world is not a factor in what types of gear you have access to. Crafted gear never matters and is always something that is just there to get you started if you want.

    Contrast that to a sandbox game. Crafted gear is nearly everything or actually is everything. The whole point in doing anything is to get more crafting materials or secure more access to crafting materials and the means to be able to craft. You need the crafting materials to craft endgame gear, upkeep endgame gear, or enhance endgame gear. You need the end game gear to be able to do anything. It is a never ending arms race and cycle. The story and fun is the victory's and failure you have in the process.

    If this is your first sandbox MMO, and you have not seen the way the gearing system plays out. I would argue that you will think it is a lot of fun. The constant struggle and risk vs reward makes a fight with a rival guild in the open world, or even some random players, more engaging then any raid boss, arena, or battleground.
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  • As for the topic's name. Change your mind. I can try.

    Skills and magic can degrade over time. You get better by using the skills. A sort of hidden exp if you will. Was always used on forum-based RPGs end-game can then, in addition to materials for gear drop or give access to skills lost to the ages. Or complex ones.

    Or perhaps rather then just keep on adding stats, you add little effects. Like the old trinkets in WoW. Add an extra melee swing. Or have that fireball explode on impact. put a reflect on the absorb shield. Copy an ability used against you. Go crazy

    What about progression that isn't based on power at all?

    Or perhaps, to keep the raids relevant even after you have all the "gear" have it degrade over time and by using. Making it nearly impossible to maintain a full set of gear unless you raid and play a lot. Tie it in with other systems like city to city warfare. Kill the dangers and bosses, not for direct personal gain in many cases. But so your city does not stagnate and fail. Try and balance it so the struggly is continuous. And every time you kill the boss, you know it helps keep your home safe.

    Just a few ideas to make gear less of a powercreep, y'know?
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  • ariatrasariatras Member
    edited November 16
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    @ariatras I can understand the sentiment of not liking the tiered progression system. It is not for everyone. Magic the gathering is a game where I feel like the cards not not really intended to be on a set tier list where one card is clearly better than the other. Even though these tier lists will be created by players until the the end of time. The designers of MTG clearly intended for cards to have their own trade offs. A somewhat unrelated example, but its the best I can think of at the moment.

    The three examples of gearing systems you have listed are all to the best of my knowledge theme-park MMOs. I have played a lot of WOW, as much Wildstar as I could (RIP), I never played The old republic in protest to what they did to galaxies. The gearing systems of these games is all the same. None of the gear is really tied to the economy or open world. The gearing system exists in two vacuums or a combination of both. You kill raid bosses and get gear as a reward or you kill players in instanced PvP and get gear as a reward. You never have to leave town to get the gear, the state of the world is not a factor in what types of gear you have access to. Crafted gear never matters and is always something that is just there to get you started if you want.

    Contrast that to a sandbox game. Crafted gear is nearly everything or actually is everything. The whole point in doing anything is to get more crafting materials or secure more access to crafting materials and the means to be able to craft. You need the crafting materials to craft endgame gear, upkeep endgame gear, or enhance endgame gear. You need the end game gear to be able to do anything. It is a never ending arms race and cycle. The story and fun is the victory's and failure you have in the process.

    If this is your first sandbox MMO, and you have not seen the way the gearing system plays out. I would argue that you will think it is a lot of fun. The constant struggle and risk vs reward makes a fight with a rival guild in the open world, or even some random players, more engaging then any raid boss, arena, or battleground.

    @Vhaeyne Lol, I just finished a post and this came up.. xD I do think that is a lot of fun. I am always a huge proponent of vibrant economies. Most games have an economy. But it is easy to have it get flooded. Once you get a piece of gear, you have it until you sell it or destroy. It doesn't degrade, so you get over saturation. With the way Ashes is set up and to encourage people actively playing the game in terms of warfare and organic PvP you can have bosses drop the materials as I said. This is fine. I am just arguing against how much of a power effect the gear actually has. I still believe it should not be too big a discrepancy.
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  • Sov54 wrote: »
    I'd answer of how I see
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Yeah I was worried about the anti-"overgearing" sentiments too. The thing is, its not a simple yes or no question that should be asked as there are different ways to "overgear" and some of them work for certain games, and would ruin others.

    For instance, if they copy pasted the WoW twinking template over to Ashes of Creation you wouldn't really have any issues. Twinks in world of warcraft can enter a system allowing them to only fight players of their level range but Ashes does not have that problem. The most such a system would do is make leveling a bit faster and give you a slight edge over other non-twink players but in exchange for spending gold, time, and resources on this power boost. It would be similar to heirlooms without needing to provide any sort of special bonuses like exp or movement speed.

    So to put it plainly, give us level restrictions on gear, but allow access to higher level enchants, consumables, and other bonuses.

    I agree. I think lineage 2 nailed it perfectly with the grade system. Allowing you to have a whole level range of gear at specific level mile stones. I know Steven understands this system well, I hope we see it in AoC.

    You too want some restriction on overgearing. I think everyone agreed on that in the devs post.

    So the discussion should be what is overgearing and where to set the boundaries.

    Even an "anti-overgear" guy like me, is not against reasonable gearing of your alts.

    Although I would not use it, as leveling while steamrolling thru content without expectations of gear updrage rapidly becomes a chore to me.

    I also don't enjoy PWNing n00bz, so I'd rather compete on the same level as the rest of people around me.
    Yes, a level one character might not be a good fit for an end game sword, L2 actually allowed you to use it, but the attack speed was like one attack a minute. Not a bad solution IMO.

    I did not get the feeling everyone agreed on that when reading the Dev post. I had a less optimistic interpretation of what some people who are against overgearing were arguing.

    I got the feeling that people seen the word twinking and only put it in the context of wow. Some of the posts read like they are from a guy who did AB one time and got sat on by a big bad tauren that was geared to the limits of level 30.
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  • ariatras wrote: »
    As for the topic's name. Change your mind. I can try.

    Skills and magic can degrade over time. You get better by using the skills. A sort of hidden exp if you will. Was always used on forum-based RPGs end-game can then, in addition to materials for gear drop or give access to skills lost to the ages. Or complex ones.

    Or perhaps rather then just keep on adding stats, you add little effects. Like the old trinkets in WoW. Add an extra melee swing. Or have that fireball explode on impact. put a reflect on the absorb shield. Copy an ability used against you. Go crazy

    What about progression that isn't based on power at all?

    Or perhaps, to keep the raids relevant even after you have all the "gear" have it degrade over time and by using. Making it nearly impossible to maintain a full set of gear unless you raid and play a lot. Tie it in with other systems like city to city warfare. Kill the dangers and bosses, not for direct personal gain in many cases. But so your city does not stagnate and fail. Try and balance it so the struggly is continuous. And every time you kill the boss, you know it helps keep your home safe.

    Just a few ideas to make gear less of a powercreep, y'know?

    Good news, Gear does degrade over time. It is in fact a key feature of the system that makes power creep not a thing in most sandbox MMOs. The same resources that are used to create gear is often the resources needed to repair the gear. This is stated to be the case in AoC. Just because you have a +8 endgame sword of awesomeness. Does not mean you can repair it if you lose access to the crafting station you used to make it when you lose a node siege. Not 100% sure that is the case, but I do know you will at least need to use tiered materials to repair the gear that gets more intense with the power of the gear.

    I would not mind if skills and magic also had an upkeep. As long as it required a resource that is one more thing to fight over.
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  • ariatras wrote: »
    @Vhaeyne Lol, I just finished a post and this came up.. xD I do think that is a lot of fun. I am always a huge proponent of vibrant economies. Most games have an economy. But it is easy to have it get flooded. Once you get a piece of gear, you have it until you sell it or destroy. It doesn't degrade, so you get over saturation. With the way Ashes is set up and to encourage people actively playing the game in terms of warfare and organic PvP you can have bosses drop the materials as I said. This is fine. I am just arguing against how much of a power effect the gear actually has. I still believe it should not be too big a discrepancy.

    From what I have read. Boss drops will still tie into the economy because of the upkeep/upgrade system. I would not think a weapon is going to drop as an over enchanted weapon. The weapon will degrade, and need resources from the economy. You are actually kinda making my point here. Nothing against you, but unless I am misreading you. You are actually coming up with suggestions for the system that are already a part of what makes the system great. One of my key worries is that the systems of a sandbox are complex interlocking gears compared to a theme park and could be easily misunderstood. Jahlon has some great videos on youtube explaining these systems for new players, but I don't feel like his education gets to everyone before they make it to the forums.

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  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    ariatras wrote: »
    @Vhaeyne Lol, I just finished a post and this came up.. xD I do think that is a lot of fun. I am always a huge proponent of vibrant economies. Most games have an economy. But it is easy to have it get flooded. Once you get a piece of gear, you have it until you sell it or destroy. It doesn't degrade, so you get over saturation. With the way Ashes is set up and to encourage people actively playing the game in terms of warfare and organic PvP you can have bosses drop the materials as I said. This is fine. I am just arguing against how much of a power effect the gear actually has. I still believe it should not be too big a discrepancy.

    From what I have read. Boss drops will still tie into the economy because of the upkeep/upgrade system. I would not think a weapon is going to drop as an over enchanted weapon. The weapon will degrade, and need resources from the economy. You are actually kinda making my point here. Nothing against you, but unless I am misreading you. You are actually coming up with suggestions for the system that are already a part of what makes the system great. One of my key worries is that the systems of a sandbox are complex interlocking gears compared to a theme park and could be easily misunderstood. Jahlon has some great videos on youtube explaining these systems for new players, but I don't feel like his education gets to everyone before they make it to the forums.

    I got the impression that we weren't too far apart too. I know I am making your point. I am not here to disagree with you. Or anyone for that matter. I just think this is an important thing to get right. (I forgot about degradation in Ashes until you mentioned it)

    As far as resources for spells go. I've always been a huge proponent of using reagents in at least the more advanced spells. In fact. In Ragnarok Online. I always built towards those type of skills. Fire Pillar Wizards, Trap Hunters, ME Priests etc.

    The final thing I mentioned does worry me greatly, as I've have seen it just too many times. Where gear is too big a part of your power growth.
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  • @ariatras
    I opened the thread ready to argue. I am not sure myself that we disagree.

    I an generally for adding inconveniences such as reagents if it adds to the economy in a positive way. It is just another niche of the market for players to try and break into.

    As for the power growth, they have a target percentage of how much power will come from gear vs character growth. I think they will hit it. Sandbox games can have power creep, but it generally takes much longer. I don't think we will have to worry about power creep for years to come.
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  • Sov54Sov54 Member
    edited November 16
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Sov54 wrote: »
    I'd answer of how I see
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Yeah I was worried about the anti-"overgearing" sentiments too. The thing is, its not a simple yes or no question that should be asked as there are different ways to "overgear" and some of them work for certain games, and would ruin others.

    For instance, if they copy pasted the WoW twinking template over to Ashes of Creation you wouldn't really have any issues. Twinks in world of warcraft can enter a system allowing them to only fight players of their level range but Ashes does not have that problem. The most such a system would do is make leveling a bit faster and give you a slight edge over other non-twink players but in exchange for spending gold, time, and resources on this power boost. It would be similar to heirlooms without needing to provide any sort of special bonuses like exp or movement speed.

    So to put it plainly, give us level restrictions on gear, but allow access to higher level enchants, consumables, and other bonuses.

    I agree. I think lineage 2 nailed it perfectly with the grade system. Allowing you to have a whole level range of gear at specific level mile stones. I know Steven understands this system well, I hope we see it in AoC.

    You too want some restriction on overgearing. I think everyone agreed on that in the devs post.

    So the discussion should be what is overgearing and where to set the boundaries.

    Even an "anti-overgear" guy like me, is not against reasonable gearing of your alts.

    Although I would not use it, as leveling while steamrolling thru content without expectations of gear updrage rapidly becomes a chore to me.

    I also don't enjoy PWNing n00bz, so I'd rather compete on the same level as the rest of people around me.

    I got the feeling that people seen the word twinking and only put it in the context of wow. Some of the posts read like they are from a guy who did AB one time and got sat on by a big bad tauren that was geared to the limits of level 30.

    Nah, I'm not referring to instanced PvP, because that's optional and you can just avoid it totally. Also, dieing in WoW is a bit annoying but that's it.

    I was talking from an oldschool MMO sandbox perspective.

    With death penalties and open PvP is when I think twinking becomes unfair for new players still learning in low level areas.

  • Sov54 wrote: »
    Nah, I'm not referring to instanced PvP, because that's optional and you can just avoid it totally. Also, dieing in WoW is a bit annoying but that's it.

    I was talking from an oldschool MMO sandbox perspective.

    With death penalties and open PvP is when I think twinking becomes unfair for new players still learning in low level areas.

    I was just using WOW as an example of the wrong ideas people are using to inform their opinions on this sandbox MMO.

    Open world PvP will never be anything close to fair. You will always find yourself in a situation where you are out numbered and out gunned. A dislike of twinking will not change that at any level. I am also skeptical that AOC even has fixed "Low level areas".
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  • dargrondargron Member, Founder
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I am worried that too many people excited for AoC have not played other sandbox games to the extent that they know what they are arguing. If you have played other sandbox games, I would like to hear some honest arguments against overgearing.
    Give me real examples if possible. Don't just tell me "Because I don't like it".
    Personally, I don't think I've ever experienced "twinking" in any of the MMO's I've played over the years (gear level requirements may have made it impossible), so I'm not particularly committed to either side of the argument for or against for Ashes. However, there was one point brought up in the discussion against overgearing that I thought was worthy of thoughtful consideration...
    neuroguy wrote:
    The only thing to be weary of with over-gearing in my opinion, is how corruption is calculated. If the corruption you gain is scaled by level difference only, then over-gearing will be very controversial and problematic for world PvP & griefing. However, if you make corruption scale as a function of gear score or some other similar metric, then over-gearing should be fine given the game's design as explained above. In general, I think PvP is where over-gearing becomes controversial but otherwise I see no problem with it.
    The last thing we want for Ashes of Creation, is a new players first impressions of the game ruined by some jerks ganking low level players, and exploiting the corruption mechanics by being equally low level, yet boosted by high level gear.

    My only sandbox experience is limited to EVE Online and, well, overgearing simply isn't possible there. Sure, some insane veteran could potentially gift a Titan or Supercarrier to a new player, but it would likely be a year or two before that new player could train up enough, just to be able to undock the thing, plus another year or so to earn the skills necessary to equip the ships and use them to their full potential. If you want to use a ship in EVE, you are gated by time sinks - the bigger the ship, the bigger the time sink before you can make use of it.

    Having said that though, there is no corruption in EVE Online, nor much of any other deterrent stopping the highest level players from waltzing into beginner zones with advanced ships and taking advantage of new players in every way possible. Even if a new player could be overgeared in EVE, they'd just become a juicier target.

  • dargron wrote: »
    My only sandbox experience is limited to EVE Online and, well, overgearing simply isn't possible there. Sure, some insane veteran could potentially gift a Titan or Supercarrier to a new player, but it would likely be a year or two before that new player could train up enough, just to be able to undock the thing, plus another year or so to earn the skills necessary to equip the ships and use them to their full potential. If you want to use a ship in EVE, you are gated by time sinks - the bigger the ship, the bigger the time sink before you can make use of it.

    Having said that though, there is no corruption in EVE Online, nor much of any other deterrent stopping the highest level players from waltzing into beginner zones with advanced ships and taking advantage of new players in every way possible. Even if a new player could be overgeared in EVE, they'd just become a juicier target.

    The deterrent in EVE is that it is not worth the attackers time to kill a new player. Time is money. That could be the case in addition to the corruption system in ashes.
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  • mrwafflesmrwaffles Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    (Waffles opinion when playing ANY MMO)
    PvP is the end game. Raids, gear, crafting, ect are all means to said end game. Endgame I should login, take a look around, and go "which pvp thing do i wan to do today?"

    I cannot tell you how annoying it is when I finally get to that point and a game comes out with a "fantastic new endgame feature!!!" and it just pushes me back further and further away from my PVP is life goal.

    (To @Vhaeyne Comment)
    I have played every single on of the games you've listed and i completely agree. I would however like to share the majority of the grief, that I feel, causes striff is unobtainable gear gaps. Some players see this God like character walking around and they know it's months if not years away from obtaining it for them selves. The "unfair", "Pay-to-win", or "no lifer" comments start flying and we have mob mentality.

    I love seeing these players because it only motivates me to get there. By any means. I'll Guild hop, lose sleep, exploit a temporary bug, plan my free time around events to max econ, you name it. In L2 I remember the first time I saw a fully spec'd Draconic armor toon walking around Giran. I was so far behind the curve that I knew I needed to get serious and stop rerolling every few months. 10 months later I was in the top PVP guild and doing PVP all the flip'n time.


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  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member
    edited November 16
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Change my mind

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  • NerrorNerror Member
    edited November 16
    The devs are talking about overgearing characters below the max level, aka twinking.

    You seem to be talking about endgame gearing up. Different beast altogether. I REALLY, REALLY don't want the endgame to be about the constant gear treadmill. Like WoW and similar. That type of endgame can F right off. It's boring and ultimately pointless to chase the next shiny, in order to chase the next shiny again.

    Gear will be important in AoC, so there will be a process to gear up at max level, but if the endgame ultimately doesn't revolve around the nodes and economics, politics and nodewars and such, the game isn't delivering on what is promised and the longevity of the game just isn't there.

    My hope for AoC is that once a decent set of gear is obtained, you need to work a little for upkeep, but other than that you don't have to worry about gear anymore and can focus on the rest of the game, where the real meat is. Sure, maybe try to get a legendary, but it won't be for everybody for sure.

    Edit: It's funny you bring up eve online, where endgame gearing isn't a really a thing except for some faction stuff perhaps. You can train for bigger ships, and to use them better, but that's it. All ship sizes have a role to play, pretty much.
  • I think hard earned equipment should be equipable regardless of the min requirement. There could be some negative consequences like -2%stats for each missing strength point or something. But completely denying to equip something that was earned by a lot of afort would feel realy bad
  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    edited November 16
    I think that twinking (which is what the devs are talking about) should be possible, as long as people have the money to buy the armor. Additionally: armor should have a minimum requirement for the players level.
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  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    I don't have a problem with over gearing to a point, getting good gear for your level to give you a moderate power increase while leveling can be fun, but any power increase you gain slowly decays as you level and the mobs you fight increase in power. What I dislike is full twinking like what exists in WoW battlegrounds, I don't think you should be able to simply turn off your exp so you don't gain levels while collecting gear resulting in you having an extreme advantage over other players at your level for an extended period of time.
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  • Nerror wrote: »
    The devs are talking about overgearing characters below the max level, aka twinking.

    You seem to be talking about endgame gearing up. Different beast altogether. I REALLY, REALLY don't want the endgame to be about the constant gear treadmill. Like WoW and similar. That type of endgame can F right off. It's boring and ultimately pointless to chase the next shiny, in order to chase the next shiny again.

    Gear will be important in AoC, so there will be a process to gear up at max level, but if the endgame ultimately doesn't revolve around the nodes and economics, politics and nodewars and such, the game isn't delivering on what is promised and the longevity of the game just isn't there.

    My hope for AoC is that once a decent set of gear is obtained, you need to work a little for upkeep, but other than that you don't have to worry about gear anymore and can focus on the rest of the game, where the real meat is. Sure, maybe try to get a legendary, but it won't be for everybody for sure.

    Edit: It's funny you bring up eve online, where endgame gearing isn't a really a thing except for some faction stuff perhaps. You can train for bigger ships, and to use them better, but that's it. All ship sizes have a role to play, pretty much.

    In this case the end game gearing system is tied to the system that will let you think. Eve has the risk vs reward cost associated with using big ships. Which is something I want to see in ashes, but people keep arguing for less harsh death penalties.
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  • SunboySunboy Member
    edited November 16
    Make it a risk for the person that lend the high value item and it will solve itself. If I can gank a low player with a clearly visible high level sword with chance of it dropping you bet no one will lend items without thinking long and hard first. Risk VS Reward.
    I have no problem with a level 1 character running around with a level 50 sword of doom IF I can PK and get that sword that took another player 200 hours to farm for 5 seconds of PvP.
  • QockQock Member
    I think there are plenty of good points, but I think min-maxing and getting the best loot is one of the best parts of RPGs. Diablo was SO much fun because of getting the best gear for your characters. WoW, that too. The point is the scarcity. If it takes you 300 hours to get that perfect bow that goes on your lvl 19 hunter just so he can crit for an extra 25 damage while doing battleground, good for those who went ahead and did it! It's also why I love gear in Vanilla WoW so much more than the modern ones....You could actually use your gear to enhance your character as you saw fit, not just grind out the top level aesthetic armor and use that. Which is the same as the PvP gear etc. Removing the incentive or reward for being REALLY into the game turns it into something that is very casual which isn't as fun to me. There needs to be some sort of benefit/challenge to the game that isn't seen as often in modern MMOs. One of my friends was the ONLY CHARACTER on the server with this one helm, and it made all that work to get it so much more special. Walking into a modern WoW city and seeing 300 people wearing the exact same armor that they got by doing 10 raids over a month just doesn't give me the right feedback.

    TLDR: Twinking is a reward system for people who spend a lot of time in the game and has it's place in a well crafted, challenging MMO.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    I mean I'm fine with it, to be honest. I normally run to characters so I have always done this
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Dev Discussion #24 - Overgearing
    What’s your view on overgearing (aka "twinking")? Giving high(er) level equipment to low(er) level characters?

    TL;DR: Overgearing would be bad for AoC.

    From reading the previous posts, there seems to be a bit of ambiguity in the terms overgearing/twinking. IMO allowing low level characters access to high level gear is bad for all the reasons @Cellzar (and others) point out. This form of overgearing goes directly against how I understood the integrated mechanics of AoC will function because players and crafting will gravitate towards high level gear raising the bar for new player entry and hurting the game economy over time. However, I understood "twinking" to mean equipping low level characters with best in slot gear specific for their level. IMO as long as best in slot is balanced properly for any given level, this type of twinking should not deter new players or crafters. Additionally, the introduction of "alt friendly" gear that levels with or help level characters is a terrible idea. That only sends a message that reaching max level is the only thing that matters. It's tough for any of us to say what will be the best system for AoC. However, given what we know so far, I would wager overgearing and heirloom type models will be bad and gear rarity by level is probably a safe bet. Thanks for all your hard work!
  • Overgearing trivializes content, most rpgs treat it like turning on cheat codes. Games are about challenges and overcoming them. The difficulty of content should not change based on what you are wearing. I think the solution is to model gear philosophy similar to how sniper rifles are designed in FPS games.

    Gear should be about risk vs reward. High end gear should have tertiary systems on them that if you don’t execute proper timing on makes you lose performance. So theoretically legendary gear should be harder to pilot, but if you can pilot it perfectly will push out higher performance than lower tier gear.

    A less skilled player may even want to play with lower tiered gear because it is easier to pilot and maintain a certain consistency in performance. High end gear should provide almost infinite skill growth because it should be tuned in a way that makes it extremely difficult to outperform lower tiered gear without perfect skill execution.

    Having high end gear just provide linear power creep has been the most boring system ever. Gear should be a reflection of a players skill level beyond it just being a trophy for killing a difficult boss or getting extremely lucky.
  • Cellzar wrote: »
    Should lowlevel characters be able to equip higer level gear? HELL NO! Especially not in Ashes of Creation for multiple reasons.

    1) Economy
    After a few months everbody just uses highlevel gear. Not only twinks, but also new players, who got their euipment from buddys or guildmates, to help them level faster. This makes every piece of gear that isnt high/max level completly worthless. This will also effect the crafting system.
    Just look at the crafting system from WoW. Blacksmithing is completly useless beacuse nobody is gonna buy your crafted items.

    2) Open world PVP
    New players without highlevel gear wont stand a chance against other players on the same level that are well geared. They cant compete for anything and just gonna bite the dust over and over again.
    Doesnt sound like fun at all.

    3) Hitting max level to fast
    Geared out low level characters will hit the max level noticeably faster which causes them to think there isnt enough content. The whole 1 - 50 experience doesnt feel rewarding since you dont have that gear progression anymore.

    4)Zero character progression
    Characterlevels become pointless. Who cares if my mage gets +2 intelligence every level when my whole set of high level armor gives me instant +200. I wont see my character getting stronger every level, since Im already an absolute beast at level 1.

    5) Challenges
    Challenges like quests that require multiple players (which may help people to connect to others) will lose their meaning. The same thing for lower world bosses. Back in the day we needed 20 level 10s to kill that dragon. Today my maxed out level 5 twink can two-hit that dragon. Does this sound like fun to you, when every threat just becomes a big joke?

    There are a lot mor reasons but my rusty english gives me a headache. Just DONT give low characters higher level equip.

    point number 2 for sure it would create to much of an advantage in open world pvp. yes they do it enough and become a murderer, If you goal is to grief your not going to care.
  • SangramoireSangramoire Member
    edited November 16
    The main reason why overgearing is a really bad idea specifically for AOC is because the content has been confirmed to not scale. The whole point that they've made with confirming that bosses and other creatures will not scale is that in order to beat those creatures you do have to level up and you do have to get better gear. Allowing someone to use much better gear say some level 30 gear at level 1 to defeat some level 15 monsters and level up much faster just undermines the core aspect of the game.

    Intrepid has already said before that it's not your typical leveling system in an mmo and that you will not get to max level in just two weeks. From what information I've gathered, they want the game as a whole to have meaning behind it, and having a max level character to feel at least somewhat of an accomplishment rather than just a trivial grind.

    My opinion is that pieces of gear should have level AND attribute requirements as this will make it much easier for Intrepid to balance gear and give them much more freedom when creating new gear drops for new bosses and such.

    Though it has also been stated before that even though characters will have attributes, as a player, you would not be able to individually place those attributes into your character which I also think it's a system that might need to change but that's for another discussion.
  • VelletyVellety Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited November 16
    In my opinion, you should be able to equip pretty much whatever you want. MMO's to me have always been to get the strongest gear and blow monsters & players up. It's just so satisfying. Of course, the path to said gear should not be easy nor short. And it should be earned on your own, not given to you through friends. If I as a lvl 10 character, manage (somehow) to kill a lvl 20 npc, and it drops some gear. I would very much prefer that I could equip it rather than wait until i'm lvl 20 to do so. Or.. maybe i'm EXTREMELY lucky & stumble upon a "legendary" treasure that has some super high lvl gear (30-40). Then again, I feel like I should be able to equip it. If I CANT equip anything, I would at least like there to be logic behind it, as to why. A real explanation rather than "too low level". Maybe it's magical power is so strong that at my current proficiency with the worlds "magic", it would be too dangerous to wield, you can't control it's power with your current magical knowledge/proficiency etc. (just an example) As for other players giving you the gear, idk.. I feel that's pretty dumb. But, i'm not sure how you'd stop that.
  • nidriksnidriks Member, Warrior of Old
    I think we have probably all twinked a noob at some point in our MMO history. It is nice to be able to pass your old gear on to an alt. The last thing an MMO needs is lot of low levels running about with vastly superior gear that inflates their stats.

    I would propose a system whereby gear improves with the player's level. For example, a helmet would have 2 stamina at level 10 but 20 stamina at level 60.

    We all want the freedom to use the prizes we earn from adventuring and this idea makes that freedom possible.

    The alternative is to allow full twinking of alts, but I believe that artificially inflates the ability of players and will affect the world.

    The other option is to force all gear to be earnt in the world, either through combat, crafting or questing, for whomever uses that gear.

    All gear should be sellable though. I don't think Ashes would be benefitted by the addition of no drop gear. That would enable a lower level to buy the gear with money they either earn or are given. Therefore I think gear would have to have some sort of level requirement if it didn't have varying stats.

    I like the idea of varying stats on gear, though it may be more work for a development team.

    The downside is that it limits the need for more gear later on, and therefore lessens the whole idea of an ever changing world and player driven economy.

    I do think that required level is a put off for many, but maybe it is required.

    I can see why the question has been asked now. This is a deep subject with many ideas and various upsides and downsides.

    I started with the idea of gear that varies by level, but now find myself drawn to level requirements for gear. That won't stop players hoarding gear and passing it on to alts when they come of level, but it would stop lower levels being artificially stat inflated. I think the need to have players not be artificially over powered is more important than the desire to have items be for any level.

    Having no sign of no drop items in the game is something I also believe to be very important. For a truly player driven economy I believe that all items need to be able to be sold.

    Therefore, even though I think it may be undesirable for many, I think level requirements might just have to be the way.

    It is a hard question to answer with certainty though. The only things I can be sure of is that I don't want to see items that are labelled no drop, I want to see a fully player driven economy where any item can be bought and sold, and that I want the game to prevent the overpowering of lower levels.

    Perhaps some way can be found to make gear that is passed on suffer in some way, i.e. it is second hand. I am not sure people would like that. I think it is inevitable that some gear will be passed on to lower levels. There is the argument that if a player has done enough to make a bucket load of money then they should be able to buy anything they want. That is a truly player-centric economy after all.

    So, yeah, it will have to be level requirements.
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds
    Because no!
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    Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
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