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Comments
Oh, I haven't bene here for the other questions. But I am here now to give my thoughts on this subject.
Twinking is fun for the twink, not for the other players. With that said. Twinking I think is part of a deeper issue. The ability to twink hinges on a progression path that is solely gear related. Whilst gear being better is not a bad idea per-say. It can very quickly compound in where you need to squish damage/hp values.
I'd much rather see gear have less of an affect.
However, I would not really know how to satisfy the feeling of growth. Other than an amalgamation of multiple systems. Skills gained from bosses. Access to additional land+unique resources. Alternative colours for animations. Giving a Cleric corrupt spells for example. No real effect other then looks. (Think Fel Fire for Warlocks in WoW) Perhaps even things like having it effect the world. You killed the dragon, but as it turns out, the dragon was there to keep the mountain from erupting, it was actually a volcano. And now the area around it is covered in magma and ash. Thus the mountain spilling its enriched guts. I'm sure all the creative people at Intrepid can think of many ways to make it feel like you're progressing without only relying on gear.
- Low level equipment becomes useless (loss of skin designs)
- Leveling is a big part of the learning curve to understand the game, both basics and indepth. By making it easier to level using higher gear, you're taking away time for people to learn/understand the game. Besides, people who will level up a 2nd character will already have an edge anyways because they know how to level more efficiently and most likely have some gear ready to be used for them.
- The mentorship program will be less useful/useless when people will be able to level up faster with higher gear.
- Leveling is part of the game as any other thing in the game. Many times I've seen games making this period faster, which as a veteran, feels very bad for spending way more time reaching the same point as they do. It really feels like the time I've spend to reach the point I'm at right now as being a waste and I should've just waited a few years just make it easier for myself to reach the same point years later anyways. Even though overgearing will only slightly effect this, I still feel it takes away the feeling of vetarans that their leveling was a form of achievement.
The rush for trying to obtain it when it randomly dropped into the world and then the rush of trying to retaining it while every player with an ounce of pvp blood in them relentlessly hunted you down.. Once obtained you were bestowed with power much greater than your level and could be near invincible one on one but while you were in possession you were highlighted on the map for all to see. If you were killed you dropped it and the next person could pick it up or if I remember correctly it disappeared to randomly drop into the world a day, a week or a month later. It created an almost unparalleled experience in L2.
I was so fortunate to grab it for a period of about 5--10hrs.. and for that period it was probably the most intense period in my six year time with L2. I had wave upon wave of players try and take me out while I kept trying again and again to get to primary pve places to power level.. It wasn`t until a pair came that I was overpowered and lost it... I totally would like to see that kind of experience repeated in some form or another with a unique overpowered piece of equipment!
From my experience twinking is when a low leveled player gather the best gear within his or hers level. And then you have enchants and other end-games items you can possibly apply to gear to make them stronger.
In my opinion, what makes a game really stand out is interesting gear that can be used in different ways. In wow classic for example there is a blue low leveled mace that increases your attack speed. This mace is best in slot for feral druid all through out vanilla and the burning crusade.
Having interesting low leveled/ranked gear is better than having low leveled players equip high level/ranked gear.
Though I will state that if something drops that's 3 levels higher and it's a super rare drop, I really dislike when getting to that level and find out it's equal to common drops stats wise. Why hold onto it for so long when it's really meh comparatively?
I played Black Desert Online as a very casual player for example. I remember that at some point I logged in and had gotten a ton of money from something and I thought I'd invest it in some gear. I bought a set of the most expensive/best gear (that was intended/dropped for max level players) I could find and suddenly I was one shotting things that were well beyond my level.
Although initially it was fun, it also completely ruined my sense of scale and power in the game and I wasn't able to enjoy it anymore.
I lost all sense of "Okay this is what I should be doing" because doing a quest that was appropriate level became obviously slower than going to one-shot the highest level thing I could. It ruined my learning curve, I missed out entirely on the story and I also no longer had any clue on what progression I was actually achieving. As such it ruined my motivation to get immersed in the game and I lost interest in it.
Another consequence was that although I felt like trying out the game later and level up another character I felt demotivated by the fact that I knew I could just buy my way through progression by purchasing a cheap set of trash items from max level.
I believe that gear progression is an important part of the leveling experience. While you're working on the progression track of your level itself you are also working on your gear through drops and quests.
If you remain undergeared combat may become frustrating but you also feel motivated to get more geared. This is a great motivator for seeking alternative methods of gaining power and can feed into other systems of the game. For example; If your method of leveling does not include as many quests and you are no longer receiving appropriate level items at the required speed, the first place I would personaly seek power is from - Crafted gear, Bought gear and then consumeable items.
Using Classic WoW and Archeage again as examples. In WoW I would craft myself potions as an alchemist to boost my combat abilities as compensation for my lack of strong gear. This allowed me to when entering a dungeon also provide potions to my party members which provided a positive social encounter.
On another playthrough I would want to go a Blacksmith or tailor route. Although I could gear through quests the reward from spending some time and resources I've gathered in the adventure to create level appropriate gear from my profession was amazing. The increase in power felt rewarding while not being overwhelming and it also was an introduction to the crafting systems for later in the game. Additionally the crafted gear often lasted me longer than qear I received from quests as well as feeling more emotionally attached to the gear.
Comparing this crafting experience to a game where you could attain "Heirlooms" or gear that is more powerful than that you would normally attain at your level - The emotional reward and experience of receiving new gear completely dissapears. It makes the different levels feel blurry due to the power difference from one level to the next feeling miniscule. It doesn't really matter if you're level 30 or 31 if you're still one-shotting everything. It also ruins the intrigue of getting into crafting at an early stage because the reward from time spent is simply not worth it.
TLDR: Overgearing ruins the emotional experience of leveling, damages other systems such as crafting and confuses the players sense of power and progression.
WoW's heirloom system is nice as it forces you to level up a main first and then makes alts easier to get going but not overpowered on their way to the top.
There was a really old web-based game called Alien Adoption Agency that allowed guilds to set the amount of xp tax on their members. It was common to make it a 100% xp tax so characters would stop leveling but continue to develop stats, skills, etc. which created what were called "super newbs." This became a whole sub-set population of the game which is interesting, but it threw off the power balance (for that player). I don't think XP taxes are a thing in Ashes from what I've read but would suggest avoiding that if it's being considered in a PVP focused game like AoC.
The main concern is a low leveled player having high end gear will have complete control over an area that is used for leveling up, and anyone that tries to contend for that spot in PVP will get completely destroyed because of the difference in gear power, ruling out any difference in skill level or tactics.
I personally see two solutions to this. No overgearing at all, or having the stats restricted on the gear because "your level is not high enough to bring out the gears full potential" for example. Both have good reasons for being picked. For example, having no Over Gearing means that those who want to level up their twinks quickly will need to prepare low level gear for each level stage, e.g. lvl 10, lvl 20 etc. Some will get gear that is cost efficient, and others will get the best gear they can because they have the finds for it. Either way, they will be purchasing the completed gear from other players, or acquiring the raw materials to craft the gear themselves, thus stimulating the economy through all stages of the game.
Having restricted Over Gearing, where the stats on the gear get better as your level increases, does a similar thing, but instead of preparing multiple sets of gear, you would only need to prepare one set that you would then use throughout the whole leveling process. Having the stats on the gear restricted by your characters level will allow low level PVP balance to remain more constant, and allow someone of greater skill level to still have a chance of defeating someone with better gear than them.
Which ever way things go, I very sincerely hope that you do NOT go for unrestricted Over Gearing, as the early-mid game balance will be completely ruined.
Personally, I do think that No Over Gearing is the way to go, and those who have progressed further into the game will have the means to acquire superior gear for their twinks.
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In my endeavors to design a game, I strove to make things as much level-less, experience-less, and class-less as possible. While you still need levels, and experience, I tried to approach them in a different way. Using a sword, you would get better at using a sword. It would affect an overall skill like melee by very little from general knowledge, but your actual expertise would come from that particular kind of sword. (ie: longsword, shortsword, rapier etc). So that you could be a master at longsword, and a novice at rapier. There could be some overlap, from general fighting knowledge, but you would need to work up both weapon skills if you wanted to be good at them both.
I wanted more of a realistic experience, set in a high fantasy setting. Why can't you be a master swordsman/spellcaster? Or a pickpocket cleric? I think Ultima online did it best, and I miss a good sandbox where you could do anything you want, and weren't restricted by levels.
Given the choice, I also like the idea of being able to learn everything on one character, just at some much higher difficulty. Using ultimas system as an example, you could get 700 points to spend among any skills, and later up to 120. so you could pick and choose the skills you got, but were limited by the number of them. This is ok, but after having played on freeshards, I think a better solution would be 700 points at 1x experience gain, then another 700 at 2x experience gain, etc. so your initial base skillset would be easily gotten, then it gets harder to keep learning new skills.
In this way, you're not telling anyone straight up they can't do something they want, you're just artificially slowing them down. Depending on how many skills you actually want a player to have, the multiplier could even be exponential for each new skill point they gain.
Anyway, I think I've gotten a bit off topic, so I'll wrap it up here. Thanks for your time!
However the gap twinking makes would be way to large for the start
What do I think of giving high(er) level equipment to low(er) level characters?
It shouldn't happen. Gear should have some sort of level/attribute/progression requirement that requires all users to meet a standard in order to use it. That requirement should be in place to help balance PvP across a general level range. If a level 1 can pick up a level 10 sword, and swing it around, what is the point of leveling to 10? Getting more skills? Why even have the gear then, just make all combat skill based and all weapons/gear cosmetics with the same stats.
What do I think about Overgearing (aka "Twinking")?
I think Twinking within a balanced gear environment is fine. I think when gear has stats, there will always be a "Best in Slot" (BIS). Veteran players will farm/craft this and hand it down to alts/friends, or sell it on market. That rare drop from the Elite/Notorious Monster will become a prime place for small scale PvP, often with Veteran's camping out lower level mobs.
I think there are ways to even balance that out, having gear/items drop at lower % chances once you exceed certain level caps beyond the mob. Having that same gear drop on higher level monsters perhaps with a slightly higher chance. Or even having different gear with the same stats for that level dropping from another Mob.
Something I have seen said a few times in this discussion that I disagree with.
I don't think that a higher level player should be able to get specific items to increase the leveling rate of a character, through added experience gain, scaling power progression, or anything of that nature. If Max level characters are able to get these items and pass them to "alts" then they will also likely be able to trade them to other players. Creating waves of under experienced, high level players.
This could also lead to a situation where there is an "Optimal leveling Class". Where 1 class becomes the predominant class for first play through leveling, causing a large number of those to appear, followed by waves of other classes.
Veteran players by experience will already be able to level faster than their first play through. Knowing where the better farming areas are, knowing where quest progression takes you to ensure you can set up a quick questing path. Don't really need to add rocket fuel to the jet engine.
In my humble opinion, instead of over gearing (which I'm not a fan of), I would suggest a different and unique approach.
You might get some inspiration from this:
There's a MMORPG called Florensia that has an interesting system. In that game you can level up both on the Land, but on the Sea as well. When you gain 1 level on the Land, your character gains 3 status points to spend on your character's status window. When you level up 1 level on the Sea, your character gains 1 status point, which makes your character stronger on the Land. Let's say that your character has Land level 5 and Sea level 40. That means 15 status points (Land level) + 40 status points (Sea level), in total 55 status points and that would help your character a lot while grinding on the land, compared to having a character Land level 5 and Sea level 1 (only 16 status points). The status points are not used on the Sea content, but they are really important on the Land, because the more status points your character has, the stronger it'll be.
So, instead of over gearing, I would suggest something like this, something that can help your character on the long run and also, at the same time, the Sea content could impact the Land content as well, and who knows? Maybe you can improve this and come with a better idea that would make the game even more amazing.
Best regards,
Barbecue
Epic gear on a LVL 20 is perfectly fine but to get that it should require a lot of work including some materials found only at level 50 or have it as a very very very rare drop. The stat difference should also not be that big.
AoC is going to be balanced around groups, if you encourage over gearing, twinking, etc. you can throw that idea of let's balance around group play in the trash bin. Gear should never be the main driver, Gear should enhance the player not make it the most important part.
If we are talking about higher level character giving gear to low levels, like a friend, i guess i don't see a reason to gate that behind level. They still need to level and would be getting that gear anyways, i don't feel like there is much of a reason to prevent them from using it.
If it is really necessary to penalize a character then make the weapon have a higher stamina drain. A new character can still wield the weapon but they get tired quicker than a season veteran character - this is more in keeping with "reality" - a swordmanship trainer starts their trainees with wooden blades to build up their arm strength and stamina with a sword. Once the trainee has shown sufficient skill with the wooden blade then they graduate to a metal blade to refine their skill and accuracy. In much the same way, if a green swordsman comes across a more exotic blade, or is gifted a more exotic blade by another character, it may take time for them to be fully proficient with the new blade, thus the extra stamina drain while they become accustomed to it, but they would still be able to use it.
If that sounds confusing here's an example. Say you have a really strong sword that has a special attack that does damage based on your characters maximum health, and there's also some plate armor that when worn gives your character 300% increased maximum health. Those put together would make a character essentially overpowered and definitely not balanced but if the character requires to have say 40 strength to wield the sword and 60 constitution to wield the platebody and that would only be possible if the character neglects all other stats completely like defence and accuracy and stuff, then something like that becomes a bit easier to balance. I think this gives devs the ability to go wild and create some very unique gear that is really powerful but with trade-offs.
I think doing gear in this way can also help almost all classes to be useful/viable since gear would also play a big part on the role they want to fulfill rather than having each class meant for just one specific role with no other playstyles.
Edit: another thing to note is that since it is planned for AOC to have bosses that do not scale, I think it would kind of ruin the fun for new players to be able to kill say some lvl 10 world boss at lvl 1 just because their gear is lvl 30 or something. This is all just my opinion though. I like character progression and like many say, it's about the journey for me.
The real pain of leveling a 2nd or 10th time is the constant need for new sets of gear. I would love to see WoWs heirloom system. Gives a slight advantage but levels up with you. So you need not buy gear for every 10 levels.
Please don't let twinkling mess up PvP. Skill should be the main advantage in PvP.
The vast majority of gear needs to be crafted and when it breaks you need the materials and the right crafter to fix it. Gear won't be soul bound so passing stuff off is already a thing. However if you pass off your Flaming Sword of Jeffery to a level 10 alt and it takes level 40 materials to repair you also have to pass that stuff off as well and it might be cost prohibitive to do so. Especially if you pass off a full set of gear to an alt.
In other games I usually have a tailor to make mage gear for my main. I then can make cloth gear for alts as well to help them get a small edge.
18 - 24 months after launch you might see a small problem with this but if the material sinks to remove stuff from the open world so people can't horde materials and things keep moving for the economy then it will happen but not to a big effect.
Someone mentioned the heirloom system from WoW for alts. I feel like that would be a sensible idea as it is not unreasonable to allow people to level a little easier the second and third time round.
Should a level 5 be able to equip a lvl 40 sword? No, definitely not.
With that being said - discussion if low level characters should be able to equip high level gear should be completely separated from the one about twinks, and done in a context of actual in-game mechanics.
And with that being said - I believe that all gear should have an appropriate minimum level requirement without any exception. Any other way will directly influence in-game ecosystem:
- allowing wow like system of scaled gear will
A ) kill all low level crafting/pve in mid term.
B ) ruin game immersion - same 1lvl chars will have different potential because someone has high level char irl - not good.
- allowing high level gear on low level chars will:
A ) completely kill any crafting/farming on any other level than cap - like what for do that if you can just equip BiS from level one?
B ) promote content steamrolling to cap - reaching max level 'adventure' will become a mindless one-hitting of mobs
Addressing the case "but it is not immersion breaking if you imagine high level friend provide better gear for a low level buddy" is very easy - high level friend can provide good farmed/crafted gear, but of appropriate level - either by buying it and promoting economy landscape for low level players, farm it from low level pve content himself or simply craft it.
With AoC's pvp system twinking lends itself to shenanigans.
It also breaks the suspension of disbelief when Noob2 that came out of the portal after Noob1 already has radiant armor/weps.
I have been playing games for a very long time (more than I want to admit
I have to say I agree with many other players that I would prefer not to have such a thing, anyhow (and I am not sure if this qualifies as overbearing but you would get my idea) WoW and heirlooms. It did certainly feel great to have heirlooms to play my alts. Many of us even bragged about our amazing collection of heirlooms. That being said, you can't have heirlooms if u did not work your way to obtaining them, probably in your main character either by unlocking them or paying for them.
So maybe after you played your main, learned the different aspects of the whole game experience, different mechanics, and so on, by the time u start making alts having something that gives you a bit advantage would be good. Not huge, but some. I mean, after all, you already paid your time, the benefits of being a "veteran" you know?
Anyhow, I want to remark once again, not a huge advantage, just a bit, enough to feel that your work the first time around has some extra rewards once u start/if you start leveling other characters. Lastly, I do not believe that overgearing should exist in any organized PVP areas. Random world PK would be very difficult to control, yet for organized or instanced PVP areas, there should not be overgearing at all. Is no point on becoming a skilled player, if any random newbie character with access to good gear would mop the floor with u.
Thank you for this question BTW, I feel is a very important aspect of a game.