Greetings, glorious testers!
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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I am all for daily rewards (knowing they will be non-P2W).
All I have in concern with this, is the amount needed each month to get the cosmetic.
I will likely be on 5-7 days a week and on vacation at least 5 weeks a year (Typically in areas with no internet, only spotty phone data.) So a general month I would only be able to get between 21 and 31 of the daily logins. But if I'm on vacation for 2 weeks that month I'd only be able to get between 11 and 15 of the daily logins.
With that said I would consider either reducing the amount needed to get the cosmetic down by a week (7) or make that reward last two months so that people can catch up, keep up, or even get ahead so they are not pressured.
The one I see as having the most benefit is the reward lasting two months, as it would also relieve pressure to those who just can't afford a subscription of a month or went through a natural disaster and missed a month without the ability to login.
Thank you Intrepid for always seeking out our thoughts!
ADDED NOTE: I have come back after some discussion with guild and streamers, and I would advise you not use login rewards, the main reason being for the stat of logging in for fun being completed shifted. A player should chose to login daily because they want to, not because they have to receive something. And honestly it would just be a punishment to be "forced" to login to the game that is completely unnecessary.
The real question should be what kind of game does Intrepid want to make. Ironically open world PvP does not work well without casual sheep and casual sheep loose interest in about 20 seconds if you force them to grind or don't put flashy bouncing objects in their face.
I think a passive reward system is inevitable for the long term, but not necessary for the the games launch.
If you guys go along with the idea of Steven, you should decrease the coins needed for the cosmetic. Something might happen to someone and he wont be able to log in for just one day, then he loses the monthly cosmetic. That suchs tbh
One the other hand, i dont like each and every end of the month to most ppl looking the same since the daily rewards are for cosmetics only.
You can add more things to purchase with daily coins such as x time exp buffs, x time pve buffs etc.
Also another suggestion is since Steven likes L2 so much and has taken many aspects of the game, i would love to see the Achievements that L2 had(Monsters killed, Rbs killed, miles walked,deaths, enchants,sieges won and many other things.)
I love login rewards, but so many games have systems that generate FOMO and FOMO isn't fun for anyone. The best system in the games I've played is Monster Hunter World - you get some useful items, money, and a voucher - all of which are used all the time so they're helpful but don't give an edge in gameplay cuz they're gone in about 2 hunts, lol. But items and money wouldn't be appropriate for Ashes, given the economies that will be built and managed by player populations.
So I really like the cosmetic coin system. It sounds quick and simple, something many games don't know how to do.
Thank you for logging in today - that's it. Then trade those in for a big thank you at the end of the month that doesn't affect gameplay.
It doesn't matter to me if someone else logs in just to grab their coin and logs out. The reward is a cosmetic item, no big deal.
However...
I wouldn't want it to be like check marks on a calendar you have to fill, or so many "consecutive days." That causes FOMO and it sucks to be stressed out over a game you enjoy.
I would prefer the coins rollover from month to month, so that a) casual players whose time is limited can save up to grab something they like later and b) hardcore players get their stuff sooner and that's the only benefit.
I wouldn't think reward cosmetics would be tradeable? Or maybe giftable to family members only or something? Not sure how yall are handling gifting/trading. I would also think coins wouldn't be giftable either.
I wouldn't want there to be more than one purchasable item per month. Like, pick between this cute new pet skin, this awesome cloak, and these dope looking boots... because that causes FOMO. FOMO is good for games, bad for gamers. If giving options is a desire of Intrepid then... maybe make it so at least some items cycle in from previous months so people have a chance at items they did miss? Or maybe if ya got the coin, then you can purchase previous months instead/also.
I'm not sure of this, but someone in my guild suggested this and I'm backing them up. But maybe there are issues I'm not thinking of:
In addition to logging in, maybe a coin is tied to achievements of a certain level. Not easy or very hard ones, but actual reasonable, playtime focused accomplishments in-game. And of course these are one-time only.
I think casual players would have something to chase by getting involved during their time online working towards a feasible achievement as part of whatever they enjoy doing. Hardcore players are already doing all the things and would get them just the one time - overall, if they miss a day of logging in, then it's not a huge impact to their ability to purchase.
And finally, I've seen some people suggest the cost be less than a full month's worth of days played. I think I can agree with this. Like in the 20s or so. There will be plenty of people who play every day, and plenty who just cannot hit 30 every month, even if they wanted to. Even hardcore players might need to head straight to bed after a long day a couple times a month.
On the other hand... if someone can bear to skip on 1 cosmetic, and the coins roll over, then I think most people would have a surplus in no time. So now I'm not sure on this point. xD
Thanks for listening to us!
P.S. I just read TavernsideGaming's post and the points about ethical game design and player choice, I 100% agree. I think my own points echo what was already said in that post but I didn't word mine as well. The reason this is even a Dev Discussion with all this wildly variant feedback is because it's become an issue in other games - a detriment to many players' experiences, and even encouraging unhealthy behavior in a few. Steven wants to answer those problems with solutions to make a great game that addresses these things head-on.
So, if Intrepid is committed to emphasizing player choice and respecting the real life stuff, I totally agree that a login reward system is awesome if it includes ways to catch up on items you missed (people WILL go get their rewards items at some point if they enjoy the game and have a path to follow to achieve it) and takes into account that rewarding players for literally logging in every single day despite IRL stuff or ELSE they miss out is unhealthy. Addressing that will instill a lot of love for this game and studio.
I can see it now. People used to the Old Ways come to Ashes and see they get a Coin for logging in.
And then they look into it and see... omg, they can catch up!
"Oh. There's gotta be a catch. I just need to keep playing when I can and I can shop stuff retroactively? I can get the awesome Fireworks Boots from last July? Nice! No problem, I can do that!"
PSPS. I've read several posts from people saying no to ANY login reward system. They have good reasons too. So just wanted to add that if Intrepid decided on NO login reward system because all rewards should be earned in Ashes, no participating rewards, and because certain metrics in the game tied to activity would be inflated by false logins, and other stuff people mentioned, then I'm alright with that too. Free stuff is nice, but I'm alright with not having one too.
If implemented I would design it where you get your token. Once you have enough tokens you buy your item from the shop. It could not be traded and would always be available and not exclusive for just that month but available all the time. That way the people that play less would still be able to get that cool skin too.
This will in my mind work for the hard core folks (who obviously will get what they like from the shop faster and get more items over the course of a year for their dedication) and the casual folks who will eventually be able to get that cool skin they want too.
My Question would be do you have to login to each character or do all your characters get a token for logging in? If you have 10 toons for example ( Think LONG TERM (years down the road) HERE) do you have to login to each of those toons to get the token 10 times?
This sounds like an idea that could exasperate people into being a PITA if you are thinking long term here for the game.
This is for the people that think they want this. WoW is 16 years old. Do you want to be logging in everyday for 16 years? Have you logged into WoW everyday for 16 years?
Have you logged into any game for 12 months without missing a day?
Personally I hope a daily login is not required.
I still remember the screen from Black Desert Online, where it said "log in tomorrow to get these dope rewards!" and it made me want to log in less instead of more. Why? Because if you have to incentivize players with daily login rewards it gives the impression that your game is not worth playing on its own.
It also goes directly against the philiosophy of "build it and they will come". Daily login rewards would be more like "bait them and they will come".
I want Ashes of Creation to be a game that I actively want to play because of the core gameplay elements. Not one where I'm logging in daily to get some kind of reward just because of FOMO.
So in my opinion daily login rewards don't fulfil any purpose apart from psychologically baiting people into a game they don't really want to play.
If if it already decided, that daily login rewards will be a thing in AoC, then I'd prefer them to be so incredibly minor that I won't care. For example if I'm going on a two week vacation during which I won't be able to play.
Here is my opinion of how they could do it though. So each month, they simply just have a tiered log in reward system.
Log in 5 days 30 embers
Log in 15 days 55 embers
Log in 25 days 95 embers
This wouldnt devalue the embers in the shop, and would give a way for people who dont want to purchase embers to still feel like they are a part of the cosmetics game just by logging in (it also encourages subscription retention even during busy months).
Now, lets break down the value that is being given away here.
(For this part we ARE rounding up one penny per package).
$10 for 1000 embers ($1/100)
$25 for 2750 embers ($1/110)
$35 for 4025 embers ($1/115)
$60 for 7200 ($1/120)
$100 for 13500 ($1/135)
So if you're giving away 180 embers per month just for logging in, you're really giving away MAYBE $2 worth of value (at retail cost). This allows people to save up, participate in the out of game economy, without being forced to spend more than their $15 a month.
1) They attach a gimmicky and cheap image to a game - "you don't put bumper stickers on Ferraris".
2) Rewards should be earned in game for in-game activities - a log in reward is a participation trophy for zero effort. This goes against core AoC principles.
3) They are unnecessary - the game itself should be the reward, and AoC is shaping up to have enough to keep people engaged.
4) They drive artificial engagement - players will end up logging in then logging out just to not miss out. It doesn't respect the players' time and adds noise to any login metrics/KPIs you want to measure.
5) A log in schedule or hours played simply does not tell you who is more loyal and thus does not necessarily reward those who are most loyal. Log in rewards reward people with more free time. Your most loyal supporters may only play a few hours a week, but those few hours are all of their free time.
6) Whether intended or not, they manipulate players to play by presenting a carrot that is not tied to the game world in any way - the decision to play should be driven by what's happening in the world, as decided and shaped by the players themselves.
7) This is a golden opportunity to shed such a system from the MMO repertoire so that future MMOs looking at AoC focus more on making the core game engaging.
TL;DR: No to log in rewards because they simply do not encourage or drive meaningful engagement; they do the opposite. "Would you put a bumper sticker on a Ferrari?" - Sebastian Maniscalco. If AoC wants to be a Ferrari (or possibly a Maserati), then let the core game play speak for itself without adding gimmicks.
Another point I want to make is about immersiveness. Games like BDO have an insane amount of window popups within the game, and it feels more like I'm playing at a slot machine rather than an MMORPG. I think an MMORPG can definitely have rewards for not just difficult tasks, but also arduous ones, ones that you really have to grind for. But, I believe that the grindy rewards should not be time-gated or require a streak of days to get on. Instead, I think it would be better to give fun cosmetic rewards only for in-game activities, where everyone can grind out that reward at their own, desired, pace.
ᚺᛖᚨᚱᚦ ᛟᚠᚦᛖ ᛊᚺᚨᛞᛟᚹ ᛁᛗᛁᚱ
I promise I'm here and watching and definitely saw and read through that megathread already
If you wanted to do login rewards you could even do a weekly reset reward that provides a token (up to 4 a month) and a shop with choice of cosmetics (each item costing 4 tokens; maybe 1 large item in the bundle could cost 7 or 8 if its big enough). Each monthly cosmetic will stay up for say 2 months allowing more casual players the ability to accumulate these tokens and choose if they want to keep or spend the tokens. Alternatively it gives them a choice to stock up tokens because maybe one month's cosmetics didn't suite their taste they can giving them the choice to splurge later down the road. I would recommend however a cap of 50 tokens available to be held which is just slightly over 1 year worth of tokens; if a player reaches cap tokens they could perhaps earn rewards else-wise a pittance of gold or some sort of account bound crafting material or item as to not skew the economy in any strange direction. A random wheel could also be used to reward the player with a random cosmetic from the past year and deduct tokens as well based on the random roll, only available when capped on tokens.
So there still could be say potentially 12 reward sets say of 2-5 cosmetic each. But making each set available for 2 months at a time.
Jan > Feb
Feb > March
March > April
etc...
People like being rewarded, and people love free things. By making the free thing obtainable within a time range encourages players to log on in a reasonable range, but don't make it so much part of the reason they log in it becomes a chore. So many MMO's out there base their gimmicks on logging in and having to do "the thing" daily that it becomes boring and people no longer desire to do it or they stop caring about it.
You could even rename it from "daily or weekly login reward" to "Thank you tokens", "Token of Appreciation" or something more in line with the theme of the game "Cinders Coins" etc.
Change up the reward gimmick, make it interesting, make people feel the value in the gift because that is what it is, but keep it obtainable and not a chore.
I am looking forward to Ashes and seeing where you go with this concept!
Thanks for reading!
"To be frank, if the game is not engaging enough to make me log in naturally, log in rewards will not make up for that. If I log in to just log off again, how does that benefit the server experience? If I log in and do stuff, then I would have logged in irrespective of login rewards. This isn't a P2W mobile game."
If the goal is really to give some casual players some easy to obtain cosmetics they don't need to grind for - just give everyone a magic coin per month of subscription. and let players exchange their coins for cosmetic items from a special pool.
Different cosmetics in that pool can cost different number of coins, some can cost 1 coin so everyone can try something out from the very start, some can cost 12 coins for the most dedicated players (in my opinion more than 12 is a bit much), and everything inbetween. It can be a small pool at the start, just couple small items and something big to look forward to, and then add more over time.
The only reward for logging in should be the game itself. If the gameplay is so unrewarding that I don't want to log in - forcing me by dangling a "daily reward" in my face is only going to make me bitter over time.
If it's done, it should be done right after login on the character selection screen, not after you load into the game. There is nothing worse to break immersion than loading your character, looking forward to immersive adventure and being slapped in the face by pop-up login reward
Such thing pulls you out of any hopes of adventure right back into the world of marketing
I don't see a reason Intrepid would specifically want to reward players for logging in every day, rather than creating a game so that players want to log in as often as is practical for them.
Further, log in rewards have the feeling of free-to-play games about them, where you need a subscription to get the login reward. They exist in such games as an easy reason for players to find an excuse to purchase another months subscription (it's really easy to justify 30 days subscription when you are 60 out of 75 days towards a login reward).
What this means for Ashes is that it will be harder to convince people that the game wont do as so many other MMO's have done over the last few years, promise to remain subscription, but then flip to a free-to-play model within the first year or so.
Having unnecessary systems in place that are heavily associated with such games - even if not exclusive to them - isn't a great thing for convincing potential new players that the game will remain subscription. Most of us have been burned enough already, and so are keeping an eye out for such signs.
I much prefer the idea that cosmetics other than those from the shop are gained via actual in game actions. Whether that is content or events doesn't much matter, but it is far better to reward players for doing *something* rather than rewarding players for just logging in.
It is something games in decline do, not powerhouses.
It feels gimmicky. AoC will be a great pleasure when it comes out. That's our reward. Why else would some1 be willing to pay for an active account?
Creates fomo. People would rather know that "in order to get this nice thing, you need to do this activity", not wonder if they logged in enough times.
It fills the inventory with semi-useless trinkets, or makes the players adjust their gameplay based on the usage of these rewards.
An open world game has a strong sense of economy and funds management, no need to throw freebies in the mix.
It is annoying to have a window pop open or an icon glowing in some corner until you deal with that reward.
Finally, mmos arent beginer friendly because older players are ahead of newbies in the same "world".
These rewards will be one more thing older players have already, and new players dont.
I think AoC will be the best mmorpg by far in 15 years. No need to feel like you have to reward us. Our reward is finally being able to play a game made with passion and great ideas. Login rewards smells marketing.
That being said, I have seen one decent system for login rewards and that is Albion Online's system. In that game you get the progress towards the login reward from every activity in the game (VERY IMPORATNT TO GIVE PLAYERS THIS FREEDOM) and you need to get 600,000 points (the actual amount is not important), but if you get 1,200 points a day (which takes about 5-15 minutes to accomplish), you then get a 50,000 point bonus. So you can technically grind this reward out asap (because there is no cap to how many rewards points you can get at any given time) or you can just login 12 days a month and do the 5-15 minute daily gameplay (any gameplay you choose). If you do decide to go forward with the login rewards system, please please please take a look at Albion Online's system.
Steven's idea with the coins is similar except for the fact that it makes you feel like you HAVE to login every day to get the reward every month. That is a horrible system because it will make people feel like they have to login when they don't want to and that's how you get people to dread and hate your game on a subconscious level. This is very important and I hope that you understand the psychology behind this. Please DO NOT make your players feel like they have to login daily for these rewards.
I love what this game could become so much and I would really hate to have a daily login system ruin it. It's a big deal so please consider it carefully.
Make the cosmetic reward cost like 20 coins, not 30. So people can have some type of leeway when life gets in the way. Things like funerals, weddings, finals, prom, etc. take all day and forcing yourself to log into the game for 1 min at 2 am before you sleep is not the greatest feeling.
BDO's system also does this by giving double log in coins on weekends if you missed any so sat/sun are worth 4 days only if you were lagging behind.
But if there is enough leeway that it doesn't feel stressful, but rather a nice gift for players who play the majority of the month (20 days a month is quite a lot), and feels like a reward rather than a strict chore incentive, I think it would be a lovely system. It'd also give players something to look forward to every month, for the reveal of that month's cosmetic
If your game is good, has things to achieve, dungeons and raids to complete, fun pvp to partake in, etc. then you don't need an artificial system in place to get people to log on and want to play. People should naturally want to log in.
TLDR; The daily login rewards, as suggested, are an overall bad thing for the players and the company, especially in a subscription based MMO, in my opinion. It is a base and negative skinner box/fomo-based manipulative system, and it is potentially actively harmful, promoting depression and anxiety in the players. It doesn’t fit in any way with the risk vs. reward mantra we hear. Make the game good, and we will log in as much and as often as we possibly can anyway.
What daily login rewards tells me about the company.
The first thing that comes to mind when a game has daily login rewards is that the company doesn’t show they believe their game is fun to play. If the gameplay is fun, people will log in to play for the sake of having fun. There is zero sense of accomplishment or achievement to clicking the login button. Getting a reward from it does not add positively to how fun the game is to play. It sure as hell doesn’t fit with the “risk vs. reward” mantra we hear in AOC. We don’t need participation trophies.
The second thing that comes to mind is that the company doesn’t mind being openly manipulative by using the basest of reinforcement techniques (think Pavlov’s dogs or Skinner box and FOMO) to train their player base to login by giving them a shiny treat when they do, and to punish them if they don’t – “Sit! If you don’t sit, we will take your toy away! Good boy, here’s a treat!” - Some people may be fine with this, I am not. I think it devalues the game.
From watching the developers on their various livestreams, I am actually pretty sure this is unintended and not from malicious intent. I was there for the 24h of their charity stream, and I generally really like them and consider them good people. However, intent only goes so far. I think Steven, and whoever decides this might be a good idea, has a real blind spot here, and it will hurt the game.
This manipulative behaviour is worse if the daily login reward system is designed in a way that the player must log in X number of days per month to get an exclusive item, or they will never be able to get it again. Now we enter the deliberate use of the harmful psychology of Fear of Missing Out (FOMO). This is, as the name implies, a fear and anxiety based manipulative technique. Not something I want to see from a game company in their game ever. It’s bad enough we currently see it in the Intrepid cash shop, which is most definitely hurting the reputation of the game and the company already. It’s a huge turn-off to a lot of people, and I died a little inside when Steven suggested this system for AOC. It’s a huge mistake.
“Manipulate” me to want to log in, sure, but only do it using actual fun gameplay, which is hopefully slightly more clever and subtle than clicking a stationary button once a day to receive a reward.
Or, in other words, make the game fun to play, and I will do my damnedest to log in every day to receive my daily login reward, which is simply playing the game.
How will it affect the player base?
This largely depends on the implementation.
If it’s the model we know from several other games, with a new set of rewards every calendar month, where it resets, it depends on the quality of the rewards.
If the rewards are some inconsequential potions, it’ll be viewed mostly as a distracting and pointless annoyance, and many players will dislike it, but probably not to the extent they quit the game.
If the rewards are decent, but not exclusive to that month, and there are ingame ways of getting the same stuff without a huge effort, this is probably the best-case scenario, but still an overall bad thing, in my opinion. Some players will probably like it. I won't.
If, as Steven was talking about in the developer stream, there is an exclusive reward for each month, that never comes back, most players will view the system as a punishment system, not a reward system. Sure, some players can log in often enough to get the reward, and they might be ok with it, but the system will 100% be viewed as a punishment for those players who are not able to log in often enough, and they are much more likely to quit the game. Saying “but it’s just a bonus/cosmetic reward” has never, and will never, change that perception of being punished.
Even players who normally log in every day, if they for one month, for whatever reason, cannot log in often enough to get that exclusive reward, they will view it as punishment, and they will be much more likely to quit the game straight up because now they lost that perfect streak of having everything. Unless the game is REALLY fun to play, of course, but if the game is REALLY fun to play, why have daily login rewards to begin with?
There are other ways to do login rewards, and some may mitigate some of the damage they can do, but as long as we are talking about daily rewards, it will be a negative overall for AOC.
The bottom line is, NOBODY is paying $15/month just for daily login rewards, unless they are so “good” and “need to have”, that their very existence hurts the game. We pay for the actual gameplay. They make little to no sense in subscription-based games.
Conclusion
FOMO is a well-researched topic. Its negative effects on the human psyche are well documented. Now, from a marketing point of view, there are studies that show it might increase sales in the short term. But given the well documented negative mental health effects it causes, I think it's morally and ethically wrong to add it to AOC.
Long term, I am of the firm belief that daily login rewards, as suggested, will harm the players (and thus the game) and cause some to stop playing, even if the gameplay is good, because they are being punished (their perception) for not being able to login almost every day. Either way, daily login rewards do in no way, shape, or form match Intrepids mantra of Risk vs. Reward style gameplay. Just make the game good, and that’s reward enough.
I instead suggest using the subscription time system/Veteran Rewards (the system in FFXIV). That way no one misses anything so FOMO isn't a thing, you don't feel like you need to keep logging in as it's tiered and based on time subbed, ANNND it's over all less work for IS in the long run since you can stagger the rewards and not have to release something new every month.
Currently Login Rewards are not seen as a good thing, and even n the Mega thread (which I implore you to look at https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/47331/login-rewards-megathread#latest ) you can see that it's not really a wanted thing. Please consider Veteran Rewards instead ( https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/playguide/option_service/veteran_rewards/ ) this is a far better system to use and all around easier for everyone.
This is what IMO would be a better system little cosmetic rewards for time subbed or perhaps a small amount of embers a pet maybe. But please no daily login rewards ends up feeling like a chore after a while.
i feel like a system similar to albion online's system would be amazing in AoC
all activities reward keys
and you must earn 1200 keys to earn that days login reward
it obviously wont take much to earn the daily 1200 but similar to Albion which only take about 20 minutes to get the 1200 keys if your doing it in royals
to add another layer of reward progression if you earn 36000 keys that month you unlock the monthly reward!
this rewards consistency!
also yes you can only earn the set daily key amount that day
once you earn 1200 keys that day you cant earn more until the next day
If you have to resort to handing out free stuff to keep your players engaged you have failed.
Imagine if a Dungeons and Dragons DM gave his players free gear because they were board. He would not be considered a good or fun DM. The same thing applies to all games.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Instead of 30 days to login, how about 15 days within the month with the reward being greater towards the end. For the first 5 days it gives 1 coin per day. The next 5 days will give 2 coins per day. The final 5 days will give 3 coins per day. This keeps the 30 coin requirement you are suggesting while simultaneously feeling more rewarding than 1 coin per day and not pressuring the player to log in every single day.
I like the D&D analogy. Giving the players a reward for simply showing up to the session seems really stupid.