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Dev Discussion #26 - Login Rewards

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  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    So, this dev discussion is a little bit worrying. I know there is already a mega-thread about this, so turning it into its own separate discussion is making it seem less like taking in player feedback and more about trying to push the system.


    New words for this thread:
    This has been commented a few times but if we are forced to have this daily login thing 30 is too much and not consistent. I understand 30 was for like “a month” but not every month is 30 days, and what happens in February when there is only 28 days and we can’t afford the 30? Not to mention it turns something fun into work and as soon as it becomes work, I lose the happy motivation I once had, and it turns into annoyed obligation. And please don’t take me saying that 30 is too much to be that I think it should be implemented with just less coins. No. I don’t want it. Period.
    Also, if this coin is to be given out daily it needs to be as soon as a person logs in, none of this “play for an hour” fooey. Don’t force players to afk, because that’s what many of us will do if we’re busy. If this is to become a thing it needs to be at “login”.

    In comparison to the hard-core players, I would be considered fairly casual. However, that doesn’t mean I want a handout for trying. Casual doesn’t mean I don’t like earning my rewards too, it just means I’m not going to be first and I’ll get to it when I get to it. This is just my opinion, but I don’t want something out of pity or feeling bad. If I truly want something, I’ll put in that little bit more “hard-core” effort to get it. Logging in should not be “something to work towards” it shouldn’t even be associated with anything other than “man I’m so excited to do/try XYZ today!” as opposed to “%#$#, gotta login to get my stupid coin today”.

    I’ve played many games that have had daily login mechanics. Some games give the rewards as soon as you login, others make you play for an hour. I hated both, but hated the forced wait time even more. These login rewards also gave random trash or gold which I could’ve lived without (and sometimes they’d fill my inventory forcing me to return to town to sell stuff). Also, every time I had a reward a massive popup would block out the screen to inform me regardless of where I was or what I was doing.
    Now the 2 systems I’ve played where I actually enjoyed or didn’t mind their rewards system were Guild Wars (1) and FFXIV. GW gave the player a little birthday box for how long their characters birthday (creation date) with a little pet or something which was nice and pretty wholesome. FFXIV had subscriber rewards for staying subbed for X months that gave a costume, which I usually always forgot about until they showed up in my mailbox, and I was just like “neat”. Neither of these were daily. If the goal is to reward casual players, a daily system is not the way to do it as even that mindset is still fairly hardcore.


    Now I apologize to any of you that might read this. I know you all are busy and trying your best. I try to stay positive on these forums as much as possible, but I needed to make it abundantly clear that I detest being told how or when I should play (and anything that is “daily” is that).




    Repost from the megathread in case that is being ignored:
    Just wanted to pop into this thread to also post that I really dislike any form of "daily" mechanics.


    For Detail on Logins:
    For the daily login rewards it's been said a couple of times, but it feels cheap. Logging into a game shouldn't be an accomplishment to overcome. Tangible items, like potions or gold, should never be daily rewards as it can easily ruin certain economies. And when the item is at the end of a daily-login month, like a cosmetic, it makes it feel like such a chore and instantly makes me start associating my fun-time game with work/chores.


    As for any other daily mechanic that might've crossed anyone's minds:
    Other than the "main storyline" of games I really hate when my daily tasks are dictated before I even get a chance to play. Some days I want to take it slow and just fish for a few hours, other days I want to hardcore grind mobs, and other days I want to work as a team to defeat a dungeon. If I'm told what I should be doing before I even figure out what I want to do, that's just bad design. You shouldn't be playing the game for me.

    TLDR;
    No.
  • I think login rewards would become a "chore" to a lot of people. Keeping AoC as immersive as possible would be better. In addition, already a lot going on in the game and one extra addition at this stage would seem overwhelming.
  • Even while I'm pretty sure I will log in most of the days, I also prefer, as mentioned above, the subscription reward. If it has to be daily, I'd say put the prices on 20~ tokens and let the players stack up to 30~. That allows to save some tokens and if you gonna miss playing days any month you still get the reward. Btw I don't think this rewards should be anything super amazing, more like "If I'm a collector I want them all, but if I'm a casual-semicasual player I don't really care much missing it".
  • Find some other way to reward people with cosmetics. Maybe something that involves playing the game?

    Its an annoying chore when you actually dont have time to play that day.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2021
    These two scenarios will never happen:
    1. People will be really interested in AOC, but as soon as they find out there aren't any daily login rewards, that's just a deal breaker and they won't play.
    2. People are not interested in AOC at all, but as soon as they hear the game has daily login rewards, they immediately change their minds and subscribe anyway.

    If the game has problems with retention (ie. it's a bad game that players don't want to play for long), no amount of daily login rewards will fix that, especially not in a subscription based game.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited January 2021
    Nerror wrote: »
    These two scenarios will never happen:
    1. People will be really interested in AOC, but as soon as they find out there aren't any daily login rewards, that's just a deal breaker and they won't play.
    2. People are not interested in AOC at all, but as soon as they hear the game has daily login rewards, they immediately change their minds and subscribe anyway.

    If the game has problems with retention (ie. it's a bad game that players don't want to play for long), no amount of daily login rewards will fix that, especially not in a subscription based game.

    This is true, but a scenario that will happen is if the game is free-to-play but with a subscription that opens up content - including login rewards - people will re-subscribe to the game sooner in order to get that login reward.

    To me, this is a reason to not do it at all. It makes the game feel like it will go free-to-play at any point.
  • KlawKlaw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    For me, it's a no. Login rewards are nice, but not really a necessity. It is strange in my eyes to reward players who just log in daily and log off, just to get those rewards. I think just playing the game itself is a reward on its own. Perhaps reward players on subscription status instead? <3
  • FlufflulFlufflul Member
    edited January 2021
    I absolutely agree with the "subscription reward" system that people are mentioning. FFXIV implements this in such an invisible-yet-effective manner that alleviates a lot of the pressure that would otherwise be placed on dailies and other systems.

    However, I believe that dailies are still very necessary, for incentives and especially for regular players. Once again, I think FFXIV handles it very well (though it could be better). For those that do not know how they do it, FFXIV integrates dailies as a "random dungeon queue" that rewards bonus XP and/or bonus end-game currency. The key term here being bonus, as these bonus rewards are just as easily obtainable parallel to dailies.

    Basically, Ashes could nicely implement a sub-reward system, especially since its primary selling point is cosmetics and exclusivity. As more of an "incentive" to play the game, dailies could be a subset of another mechanic. For example, if there was an (indefinitely) repeatable quest to increase some node reputation or whatnot, it could have a daily integration to have the first completion add a little more reputation. Of course, numbers are heavily subject to balance, but it's the tiny things that incentivize player involvement and not (forced) player service.
  • along with some of the options mentioned by others..,(since not all of this has to be done by the letter, and can be mixed and matched)

    if implemented you can have it be not locked by month at all or days like other games with daily logins(be they gacha or the phone hierarchy of games)

    if tasks are a thing have them roll over from the day you begin a subscription or resubscribe..,(thus eliminating part of the greater drag of checklist and dailies, which tend to be just the limited amount of time they have for completion)

    as for awards, or gifts/extras.., removing their usually imposed time exclusiveness should also ease most concern and drving factor of The Fear Of Missing Out..,
    (could be tied achievements or a timeline if there be tied occurrences)
    where the more content or things to do increases players are not locked out for good or a year(seasonal could probably just be available/continueable once you hit one partake in one ongoing season event, so even if completion isnt done that year or the next, -but to avoid interference with current login/events, can be also accessed/conversed else where specifically-)

    while adding a tiering system to it, so those who do have time to put in, can, whilst putting in effort which could benifit others/character without going beyond into things that will affect the game..,(example being the basic completion would be everything for the one character played on, another tier up for better quality/gains, while the next two subtiers are for tue basic for account, or better quality/gains for account)
    (im sure some would love to not missed event only cosmetics of events of yore..,
  • DmhofmaDmhofma Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think a cosmetic shop would be interesting in terms of acquiring coins on a daily basis, but I have two major concerns regarding the topic. First is that I think that there should be alternate ways to farm these type of coins other than just logging in, such as pvp events or minigames that allow reasonable farming for those of us who need ALL the cosmetics. Second is that a shop like that is a slippery slope to making a game feel more pay-to-win than it should. I like the idea but I think it should be handled delicately and should even potentially have less attention given to it if it undermines the efforts of other people who invest a lot more time into getting cool cosmetics from dungeons/raids/pvp.
  • Daily quests are boring and login rewards feel meaningless. In my opinion, the best form of giving rewards to players when they login is when the game got updated with a patch or festivals or events or expansions or simply when players download data for the game.

    My friends and I were always excited to see "Gifts from GMs" when the game launcher started downloading stuffs.

    Plus, my suggestion for AoC, the items MUST ONLY be the cosmetics, and they don't have to be permanent.
  • Lavitz SlambertLavitz Slambert Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I would say that login rewards are a positive for players who don’t have a lot of money to sink in to buy fancier cosmetics. Myself, being a player that will certainly be spending too MUCH money on cosmetics, I would appreciate any login rewards not adding that aforementioned “pressure” on me to login, because that gets to be a lot. I could see the login rewards being cosmetics that periodically rotate in and out of availability, but nothing “one-time” as I would feel too pressured to be prepared for any/all possible rewards. Also, for the people that aren’t logging in every day, they could at least take note of something they really want and save up for the next time it comes around (plus that would be less work for the artists). I’ve seen a few posts that say 30 is too much, I’m personally okay with 30, but I wouldn’t bat an eye if it were less.

    Ultimately, I think it would be interesting to go back to a time before login rewards and not have to worry about it, but as long as they don’t become an active part of my daily life, I would not mind if they were there.
  • XheloriXhelori Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter
    I think a daily login “reward” should only be a random and simple salutation, sharing of Verra lore, a written/ verbal blessing, or a general fortune for the day (like you would get from a fortune cookie) and nothing more. It could be funny, thought-provoking, or encouraging. I think that would be interesting enough without encouraging people to login every day towards grabbing every reward in a monthly collection.

    There can be seasonality in the daily messages. You can even make it so that players can put in submissions for daily messages like a mini creative writing contest, with the winning daily messages being shared globally. I think this is more fun and engaging than the acquisition of “things” just for logging on: What will the omnipresent voices of Verra share with me today?
  • I think daily log in rewards are too gacha game style for me. I think the most i would compromise for any sort of reward based system is the one similar to FFXIV where based on how long you have been subbed you get a cosmetic item or vanity pet. There have been times tho that because I had periods where I had unsubbed it took me awhile to get to that reward when I resubbed and it felt bad.

    My final thoughts; subscription based rewards are cool and I wouldn't mind seeing it. Tho I'd like the option for those items or variants of those items to still be available in ember store
  • ZagarothZagaroth Member
    edited January 2021
    I have never personally been a fan of the daily login rewards. To me it make me feel like I "have to" log in every day or I might miss something. That feeling of "have to" can be come more like work and less like a fun game. When that happens, I normally stop playing.

    Just my two cents..
  • poisonzpoisonz Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    log in rewards only if it's attached to the in game cosmetic shop ONLY...
    nothing else...
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  • cyanideinsanitycyanideinsanity Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter
    Honestly I'd rather not see it. If you've already got people logging into the game because they're actually playing the game, its pointless. If it encourages players to log in and then immediately get off its also pointless. The best case is when you get someone planning on getting their daily then leaving, but ends up playing, yet shouldn't the game be the thing to get players on in the first place?

    This is something I've experienced in both GW2 and RS3. Literally logging in for that login/daily reward and not playing.
  • FeykirFeykir Member
    edited January 2021
    I speak for two people who haven't bought into this game yet, but are very much interested. I registered this account just to post this opinion as I feel like the devs are falling into the same trap as other mmo's.

    The thing that these systems always forget, is vacations! Not everyone is going to be available 5-7days out of the week. And when people are on vacations even less so. Most vacation lengths span one whole month when people are given the opportunity.

    Since that's not been taking into consideration, I voted no on the poll.

    I also feel the fact that you have to consider this means there isn't enough reason for someone to play the game enough as it is. I really think that is terrible for the long term, and sets the tone of your game launch (looking at you BDO). The fact that I clicked the shortcut to log in out of all of the other competitors out there should be enough, and don't forget, you already have the carrot of requiring a subscription to play the game. People are going to try and log in as much as they can because they are paying $15/mo

    Regardless of my opinion and the portion of the community's other thread, I feel like you are going to implement it anyways. So here is an alternate solution:
    • Cosmetic Only
    • Needs to have built in ability to 'catch up' with a weeks worth of play (People need to have more coin per quest/login) OR extend the time to 3 months for the reward being available
    • No pop up, bad for websites, worse for games
  • dont see the point in login rewards..

    Basicly given away free stuff for login..

    if you make a good game steven?! players will login, dont matter if you have login rewards then
  • Instead of just giving away stuff I would create a handful of easy quests and randomly give players one of those each day. Reward can be that cosmetic coin.
  • SaucelessKnightSaucelessKnight Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I am completely against a login reward system, it's just a Participation Award system that takes away from the sense of achievement that goes with cosmetics and collecting. It adds nothing to the game imo and not to mention the system was straight up invented to form addictive habits in gamers so that games can show inflated player numbers.
  • This comes fromLoL but extra gold for let s say first dungeoun of the day woule be cool or someo other content. Think Ember coins should be used other ways not daily reward.
  • ShadowVenShadowVen Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    No Daily login rewards please. Monthly Rewards, sure if its cosmetics based only.
    [img][/img]
  • oddodd Member, Explorer, Kickstarter
    edited January 2021
    Didn't you guys already decide that we wouldn't have dailies? This is a daily quest in another form. Those are extremely tiresome tasks that try to keep addicts playing and they make the game feel like a job, even if the rewards are only cosmetic and the task is to just log on. I can't deal with that stress anymore.

    If you really want to give players stuff for logging in, stick to seasonal events. They'll have to do something to earn the reward, it won't be forever, it breaks up the monotony (for the players and the developers), and it can come back next year if people miss it.
  • odd wrote: »
    Didn't you guys already decide that we wouldn't have dailies? This is a daily quest in another form. Those are extremely tiresome tasks that try to keep addicts playing and they make the game feel like a job, even if the rewards are only cosmetic and the task is to just log on. I can't deal with that stress anymore.

    If you really want to give players stuff for logging in, stick to seasonal events. They'll have to do something to earn the reward, it won't be forever, it breaks up the monotony (for the players and the developers), and it can come back next year if people miss it.

    100% agree with this! In my experience, a lot of my friends didn't enjoy logging in just to get an item they weren't really interested in. Sometimes it can clutter one's inventory. Some don't even pay much mind to them because it either doesn't seem interesting, engaging, or/and important. I'd say seasonal event daily quests would be the best way to have your players be more engaged in the game. Overall this is just my cup of tea, I feel more satisfaction being able to do a quest to earn something I spent time on.

  • So what if you make the daly login give you a coin and whit that coin you can buy a scrol that cant tel you about the lore behind the game. tel like a story. to find out more about the world. that is not Pay to win. it is not mandetory and it wil reward you whit content and story. i wood like it to be a dailie cwest like a realy short 1 like make an old npc som food.
  • SkaarSkaar Member
    edited January 2021
    SNIP

    I'd only be o.k. with it under certain conditions:

    The log-in calendar should have half the rewards of the running month (so 15 login-rewards rewards / month). This would allow people with less time on their hands (or who aren't actually home every day) to still complete the month and wouldn't make them feel excluded from this or stressed out about missing a day / few days.
    Just make sure, that special rewards like skins and costumes are account bound and not character bound...

    Otherwise a full on 30-day reward calendar in a 30-day month would be a big NO for me...as it just creates too much pressure and feels like a cheap way to make people log in.

    Another good idea is how AION handled rewards:
    Each month you were subscribed in AION you'd get special "prestige" rewards. Those rewards were account wide and available for every character you create for as long as you played the game.
    You got, for example, inventory space tokens, different pets (auto loot pets, pvp alarm pets, inventory pets), storage furniture for your house, important endgame currency, wings and mounts, cosmetics, etc.. This was especially nice, since - if you switch characters down the road - you can still allocate all these rewards to the newly created character.
  • edited January 2021
    No login rewards please. Even if it is towards cosmetic items, the "cool" factor of the items are lessened because the items may be acquired by doing simple mundane tasks like logging in. It tarnishes the intrisic value of the cosmetic item even if there is a cash shop for cosmetics. If people are paying a subscription for the game, they will most likely login actively and enjoy what they paid for.

    The system would also punish people that are unable to login on a given day.
  • No login rewards please. Even if it is towards cosmetic items, the "cool" factor of the items are lessened because the items may be acquired by doing simple mundane tasks like logging in. It tarnishes the intrisic value of the cosmetic item even if there is a cash shop for cosmetics. If people are paying a subscription for the game, they will most likely login actively and enjoy what they paid for.

    The system would also punish people that are unable to login on a given day.
  • oneuproadoneuproad Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    big F for daily chore, let that be dailies themselves or daily login rewards.

    I personally will be logging in everyday, but I want to get rewarded/ahead with what I have done ingame not what I received automatically(even if it is just a skin).

    No need for any of these, especially not during holidays. Some games tend to release some holiday login rewards, just why?

    Game is meant to be a next-gen in an old-school way, then stick to the old-school. People have become way too lazy, soft with all the AFK activities and login rewards and what not in MMOs.
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