Greetings, glorious testers!
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Everyone loves beneficial suprises, not so much detrimental surpises.
Either way, a surprise is a surprise because it is...wait for it.... 'unexpected'
For me though, life is full of ups and downs.
I would find it just as interesting to be confronted by random PvE muggers/assassins, intent on taking goods,
as random PvE messengers that come bearing gifts, from anonymous benefactors.
Even more so, if there is a quest line hidden behind the intentions of the good and the bad.
But that goes back to a 'nothing happens/exists without a reason philosophy'.
If the reason is logging in, as opposed to playing the game,
its kind of like breaking the 4th wall to me.
"Punished" may be a strong word, but psychologically people are much more driven when they feel they would miss out rather than getting a reward (FOMO is a more powerful driver of behavior than a reward). This is one of the psychological entrapments many games use today, which may be good for the short-term, but is not only bad for the long-term but also predatory when done intentionally.
Now this is more of personal opinion as I'm not a collector, but I believe that the only people who would care about cosmetic daily login rewards are collectors. It's not something that you can "flex", since all you did was log in; nothing special. I imagine the cosmetics would mostly consist of recolors which let's be honest... very few people really care about. If they aren't then it could be argued it would take development time away from more important things, but I don't know how much time that would be so I won't go there.
Some people have suggested subscription based login rewards, but I'm also against that as it falls to many of the same entrapments that daily cosmetic rewards do.
TL;DR
Such a minor reward most people wouldn't care about when they get it, but would still feel pressured into getting it (FOMO). The game itself should be the reward for logging in, without the need for cheap/minor rewards as a means of getting people to login through arguably predatory psychological exploits (negative reinforcement skinner box/operant conditioning chamber).
However, I could see something like on a quarterly/yearly basis we check your achievements and based off of achievement completion you will receive a different tier of cosmetic rewards. This can then be updated during new expansions. Rewarding people who play and commit time into the game more or less on how much they have committed.
People have suggested using a token system where you have to log in like 15 or 20 days to purchase the monthly cosmetic but I think a better solution would be to have a weekly quest that gives you 13 tokens so you could get a total of 52 across 4 weeks BUT have the cosmetic/decor item only cost 48 tokens so that you could miss approximately 4 weeks of the year and still have enough tokens to afford all of the cosmetics. This wouldn't pressure people to log in every day and it would also allow people to make up for the occasional missed week. I also think that the quests should be a little difficult not just running things around the map and killing super easy mobs.
I also really like the idea of giving subbed accounts a special cosmetic for however long they've been continuously subbed, but only every 3 months or so.
I think a contrast should be made with seasonal items or cosmetics, missing out on a timed event doesn't feel nearly as bad since, I would have had to participate in the event, and not simply login. Login bonuses are easy enough to gain that even when I'm not grinding the game daily, I feel like I should at least login.
If you are asking me, I would prefer no login bonuses to any at all. That being said, it's not really that big of a deal to me, if this game ends up having login bonuses I know they will be purely cosmetic which I would be fine with. But again, I think to avoid the potential feeling of loss with returning players, or players that are taking a break, no login bonus is the wave.
Steven's second quote. "I'm open to discussions on frequency." Does that mean he's already made up his mind about the god awful cosmetics?
How are coins any better? How does it not create pressure. Each month there's a unique cosmetic. Purchasable for 30 coins.
Needs 30 days of login in. What about February?
How about giving these "unique" looks to artisans instead? Tie it to the gameplay.
There is one very important thing you need to grasp
Cosmetic rewards, or any rewards just for logging in aren't rewards.
Rewards should be linked to achieving things.
Login in isn't an achievement.
Daily rewards shouldn't be used as a motivational tool.
Daily rewards either create fomo or they are not important enough in the first place. When they are not important, why have them? And if they are used to motivate, then they create fomo. And fear is never a good, sustainable, long-term motivation. Either the player is motivated to play the game or not. Login rewards won't change that. The game should be enjoyable and motivating on its own and if that's the case login rewards are obsolete.
Daily rewards are great for making players open the game SHORT TERM, but not more than that.
I like the idea of rewarding players, who don't have much time.
Though, in my opinion that should be done through daily reward systems connected with an event . For example: lets say there is a Halloween event, then maybe a daily reward system over the period of a month could be a good idea. In which you have to log in 21 days out of the 28-30 to get a special event cosmetic in the end and little things along the way. Or maybe only for a week or two. Have daily rewards to make the event special.
I know Steven is against participation rewards, but still.
Players want to show off, that they were there. Clash of clans just came to my mind. Everybody kept their christmas trees and stuff.
Just don't make them continously!
Shallow games. Boring games. Poorly designed games. Shitty games. Games designed to maximize your log in time so they can sell you stuff.
What motivates you to log into a game shouldn't be some trinket they throw at you for participating in the most basic, simple task there is, turning the game on. What motivates you should be the quality of the game, and the quality of the content in that game.
If you need a log in reward, may be time to reevaluate why you are playing said game to begin with.
Im 100% with this.
This is a brand new game and people forget it... We shouldnt have all those things, specially log in rewards in the launch day, we are getting ahead of ourselves.
So, thank you all for sharing your opinions and like LieutenantToast said, vote and keep the replies coming.
I agree with this wholeheartedly, and really appreciate the very well thought out, and worded, response that TSG took the time to write and post.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP31ixSBO7GHKLBefWVcJaA
I actually thought about that a few days ago. What if people vote first, then change their minds?
@LieutenantToast is there any way to add an unvote function to the board? I have seen it work on other forums, so it might work here as well. Right now there is a clear winner in this poll, but sometimes it's a close call and people misclick or change their minds, and an unvote function might be good.
As proposed, it's problematic.... because that means I could miss out on that month's cosmetic and that's what causes the feeling of pressure.
There should simply be a Cosmetic Coin shop. Different cosmetics are worth different amounts - you can purchase them whenever you have accrued enough Cosmetic Coins. Cosmetics should not be only available for a set period of time and then become unavailable, they should always be available if you have enough coin.
This is the way it works in No Man's Sky - it feels great. Sure, you do actually have to complete a quick 5-10 minute daily to earn the Cosmetic Coin, but skipping days or weeks does not feel like a penalty.
Logging 365 days a year should not be necessary, specially in a game with a subscription scenario, that creates a "need to" mentality and that will eventually evolve to, thats a fucking chore mentality, and lets be real here, no one likes chores. Doesn't matter if you have the time or not, having an obligation for so long is not healthy.
With that said, the achievement system can be used to reward people with logins, without and obligation to login, as an example, login 100 days, you get this reward, login 1000 days, you get this reward, this may take someone that time, 100 or 1000 days, and take another 2000 days, it will reward you for you attendance without detriment of the others, you could even make days in a row what would be close to daily login system, but as an achievement system is always there to be achieved, and can be prioritized by those who can, and want to.
🤔 I poked around a bit and did some searching - there doesn't appear to be a way at the moment to customize our polls with an unvote/revote option through Vanilla, so unfortunately there's currently no way for you to edit your vote once it's cast. Since I agree this might be helpful functionality to have in the future, I'll make a note to investigate further what other options we may have on that front!
Do you like fast patches, additional content, high quality servers? Well, these things cost money. Watching the dev vids, there have been multiple times where they have said [para] “that would be cool but it’s not in the budget” (example: racial attack animation)
Many games use daily login rewards because they are a marketing tool that works. It’s not the rewards that are bad, it’s how it’s done. If the rewards are cosmetic and not economy driven, these types of rewards are great, and effective. If they mess with the economy (like they do in ESO and BDO) then they are bad.
My suggestion? Combine daily rewards with cosmetic RNG chances (account bound!). Make a system where the logging in gets you chances to roll for rng cosmetics, some of which are super rare and super cool. Change the cosmetics monthly and repeat semi-annually.
It doesn't do anything of the sort in a subscription based game. Unless you have some sort of study that backs up that claim? If so I'd like to see it.
As for the "miniscule impact" you mention, it sure doesn't for me. It has a major negative impact on the game. And I am clearly not alone in this, as is obvious from a lot of the posts in this thread.
My passion for this game comes from the fact that you seem to really want to make a quality game.
That you already are planning to include (imo) toxic retention mechanisms that are the hallmark of F2P marketplaces (dressed as games) is hugely disappointing.
As many have pointed out already, if your goal really is to reward players, having a loyalty based reward system based on subscription time is much better.
The only good reason for doing a daily login is to make players log in even when they don't want to play, and then splash an aggressive cash shop in their face.
Please, don't be that company. Be better, as you have promised us all these years. I have faith in you.
Login rewards are an example of a basic marketing mechanism known as "incentives". Marketing incentives work and there is an entire profession dedicated to understanding why, how, and how much. It is called analytics. I'm not posting here to give a lesson in business econ. My point is that games, even awesome games, need income.
Yes, there is a subscription, but the game still needs to gain and retain customers so that intrepid can afford to hire the talent it takes to keep adding cool stuff to the game, and to make all the cool stuff they've been promising work well. Practically speaking, the game can be better if it can make more money in ways that don't disrupt the in-game power balance or economy.
What do bound, cosmetic daily login rewards really cost you as the player? Do they make your in game efforts and success somehow less valuable? Not having them has a cost too. The cost is what we could have had if Intrepid had the ability to hire an extra couple of artists or programmers.
The question should be "How could login rewards be implemented in a way that would not disrupt your gameplay." Not, "should we have them."
The only way that daily login rewards would not be manipulative and disruptive is if you got the reward whether you logged in or not. If you miss Tuesday but log in Wednesday, then on logging in, you get both Tuesday's and Wednesday's rewards. Which would defeat the object of the system in the first place. As you say, the threat of "If you don't do this, then I'm not giving you this..." isn't a new concept, but it's not one that retains customers long-term. It's put me off multiple games, and has been the cause of me stopping playing some of them.
It's main objective is player retention, essentially a daily requirement to login rather than something you want to login for, especially if it would only reward cosmetics, there would be the feeling of being compelled to login for something you actually don't even need, players min-max regardless of what it is.
If it were added, it should be added with catch-up mechanics in the form of questlines/daily quests that eventually would see you in-line with someone that had logged in from day one, even if you started 30 days late.
There is no reason to force people starting one day late to forever be "behind", other than you want to also offer the same cosmetics on the marketplace and incentivise buying it for real currency over waiting, which is scumbag tactics used in the type of games Steven is trying to not replicate and has played in the past. (XL)