Dev Discussion #26 - Login Rewards

Cypher

Lycancoffee wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

Lycancoffee wrote: »

The problem with asking this question to the community is that the average forum dweller doesn’t have enough business marketing or microeconomics education to understand how something like daily login rewards increases profits, improves engagement, and helps to retain player base while creating a minuscule impact on gameplay.

It doesn't do anything of the sort in a subscription based game. Unless you have some sort of study that backs up that claim? If so I'd like to see it.

As for the "miniscule impact" you mention, it sure doesn't for me. It has a major negative impact on the game. And I am clearly not alone in this, as is obvious from a lot of the posts in this thread.

Login rewards are an example of a basic marketing mechanism known as "incentives". Marketing incentives work and there is an entire profession dedicated to understanding why, how, and how much. It is called analytics. I'm not posting here to give a lesson in business econ. My point is that games, even awesome games, need income.

Yes, there is a subscription, but the game still needs to gain and retain customers so that intrepid can afford to hire the talent it takes to keep adding cool stuff to the game, and to make all the cool stuff they've been promising work well. Practically speaking, the game can be better if it can make more money in ways that don't disrupt the in-game power balance or economy.

What do bound, cosmetic daily login rewards really cost you as the player? Do they make your in game efforts and success somehow less valuable? Not having them has a cost too. The cost is what we could have had if Intrepid had the ability to hire an extra couple of artists or programmers.

The question should be "How could login rewards be implemented in a way that would not disrupt your gameplay." Not, "should we have them."

It’s already been said before in this thread but the GAME should be the only incentive. Stop trying to encourage corporate nonsense. They don’t have a board of directors or investors to please. They have a subscription and cash shop already. They don’t need to drive up logins. You can do your own research and read through this thread on previous pages and see why it’ll be a problem. You’re horribly misguided if you think a log in reward system is going to do anything but cause many people to eventually resent having to do a daily log-in as it’ll be a chore, and no one ever has said “hmm I was on the fence about this game until I heard it has free shit for logging in! Boy oh boy I love participation trophies, let me subscribe right away $15 a month just so I can get a punch card! Weeeeeee!” No that’s never happened and it never will.

Lycancoffee

Do you guys & girls think that, instead of this, something like what Fortnite has (the seasonal battle pass) would be a better way to offer “participation” rewards if it were free instead of paid?

daveywavey

Lycancoffee wrote: »

Do you guys & girls think that, instead of this, something like what Fortnite has (the seasonal battle pass) would be a better way to offer “participation” rewards if it were free instead of paid?

No thanks. Same thing, different label.

cyanideinsanity

Lycancoffee wrote: »

Do you guys & girls think that, instead of this, something like what Fortnite has (the seasonal battle pass) would be a better way to offer “participation” rewards if it were free instead of paid?

So make it even more inconvenient for players who can't play/put hours in everyday?

Nerror

Lycancoffee wrote: »

Login rewards are an example of a basic marketing mechanism known as "incentives". Marketing incentives work and there is an entire profession dedicated to understanding why, how, and how much. It is called analytics. I'm not posting here to give a lesson in business econ. My point is that games, even awesome games, need income.

Yes, there is a subscription, but the game still needs to gain and retain customers so that intrepid can afford to hire the talent it takes to keep adding cool stuff to the game, and to make all the cool stuff they've been promising work well. Practically speaking, the game can be better if it can make more money in ways that don't disrupt the in-game power balance or economy.

What do bound, cosmetic daily login rewards really cost you as the player? Do they make your in game efforts and success somehow less valuable? Not having them has a cost too. The cost is what we could have had if Intrepid had the ability to hire an extra couple of artists or programmers.

The question should be "How could login rewards be implemented in a way that would not disrupt your gameplay." Not, "should we have them."

I've had many lessons in marketing and business economics I was hoping you'd have an actual study to back your claim.

Login rewards work short term in F2P games designed around a cash shop. These are often mobile games where you only need to login and play a few minutes at a time, but I know many MMOs use them too. They try to get people hooked on that little dopamine rush.

AOC isn't that kind of game. They get their subscription money whether or nor players log in every day or not. What matters is if the gameplay is good. That's it. Nothing else will matter long term in an MMORPG of this type. Daily login rewards will actually, IMO, be detrimental long term, for reasons many have already posted in this thread. It's a cheap, manipulative tactic that players see right through, and it changes the login process from a fun thing where players are excited to play the game (otherwise they wouldn't log in), into a chore where players feel they have to log in, even if they don't have the time or desire to play the game, or they will be punished by not getting the daily shiny. That's the psychological reality of daily login rewards, unless they are so worthless they are just an annoying waste of time and space.

Now, Steven has said he is deliberately using FOMO tactics in the cash shop, to help pay for expansions. He's using other words, but it boils down to using FOMO tactics:

I want to incentivize purchase in the cosmetic shop for sustainability of what expansions we have intended, since we are not a box cost. I want to incentivize purchase by offering limited items: limited time, limited quantity, so you have confidence that when you purchase them, they won't be offered later on in some other way.

Personally I absolutely hate this decision, because the studies on FOMO are pretty clear: It causes mental health issues in people, and I am absolutely convinced it is going to negatively affect AOC, because a majority of people dislike it.

Even worse is if Intrepid implements daily login rewards as a way to aggressively promote the ingame cash shop, as if AOC was a F2P mobile game. They would rightfully get a major backlash from their player base. Players pay a subscription to avoid that BS completely.

I know they aren't going to change this now, but man oh man do I wish they dropped the cash shop entirely and just upped the monthly fee if necessary. 20, 25, 30 bucks, whatever.

Edit: I like to back up claims with studies, so here's one: A threat to loyalty: Fear of missing out (FOMO) leads to reluctance to repeat current experiences.

Prince of Elsewhere

This coin system for cosmetics sounds reasonable as long as those cosmetics are not one-time only. Given that these seem to be monthly cosmetics if the cosmetics were not always available I would see it as acceptable if the (for example) March cosmetic was available every March. Anything revolving around daily rewards can very easily turn into a punch card job and this "reward for playing the game" should not also function as a "punishment for not playing the game".

BobzUrUncle

As long as the system is cosmetic only, what is the problem? It is not like a guild is going to turn you away if you don't have a specific cosmetic outfit with a certain visual (and if they did, they are too picky).

Just make it so we can log in randomly and still get some pretty things every now and then, and whatever we get is a bonus!

Caeryl

Lycancoffee wrote: »

The problem with asking this question to the community is that the average forum dweller doesn’t have enough business marketing or microeconomics education to understand how something like daily login rewards increases profits, improves engagement, and helps to retain player base while creating a minuscule impact on gameplay.

Do you like fast patches, additional content, high quality servers? Well, these things cost money. Watching the dev vids, there have been multiple times where they have said [para] “that would be cool but it’s not in the budget” (example: racial attack animation)

Many games use daily login rewards because they are a marketing tool that works. It’s not the rewards that are bad, it’s how it’s done. If the rewards are cosmetic and not economy driven, these types of rewards are great, and effective. If they mess with the economy (like they do in ESO and BDO) then they are bad.

My suggestion? Combine daily rewards with cosmetic RNG chances (account bound!). Make a system where the logging in gets you chances to roll for rng cosmetics, some of which are super rare and super cool. Change the cosmetics monthly and repeat semi-annually.

Wow you just suggested every manipulative system that players hate!

No, we are aware login rewards are there to boost metrics, not reward us.

We are aware metrics are used to fill pocketbooks, not show actual game health.

We are aware RNG causes addictive tendencies that keep players coming back.

We hate login rewards and other "daily" nonsense because we don't see our fellow players like resources to be exploited for profit, and that's all those time-crunch, pressuring systems do, exploit human psychology for money.

Lycancoffee

Caeryl wrote: »

Wow you just suggested every manipulative system that players hate!

......

We hate login rewards and other "daily" nonsense because we don't see our fellow players like resources to be exploited for profit, and that's all those time-crunch, pressuring systems do, exploit human psychology for money.

You realize that the game needs to make money to run well and to pay the people they need to build and grow the game, right?

The game designers are clearly looking for ways to bring in that money without ruining game balance.

All marketing is “manipulation”. Every sale sign, every cgi ad video, every email, every subscription plan, every content creator program, every greeter at a storefront is “manipulative”. Just because you forgot to cancel your Netflix subscription doesn’t make Netflix evil because they charged you on auto renew.

I agree that the login rewards and rng boxes are toxic when they have an impact on actual game balance, but not all “FOMO” is the same. There is a huge “FOMO” difference between missing out on a economy breaking login reward equal to dozens of hours of in game high end farming, like in BDO and ESO, a limited time chance of getting your ultra-rare higher dps (distubingly) lolli waifu in Genshin Impact, and getting an item like hat with a feather in it, or a different looking saddle for your freaking Thundercat mount.

Not everyone needs to have “everything”. Having things that are rare and special, but don’t give you an actual advantage economically, or make you stronger in pve or pvp are a great way to create a feeling of recognition and appreciation for those who have put time and support into the game.

I mean I’m sorry, but if you weren’t at the concert, then you shouldn’t be complaining that you didn’t get a T-shirt, and shame on you for complaining about the people who are wearing them, or the band that sold them.

Cypher

Lycancoffee wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Wow you just suggested every manipulative system that players hate!

......

We hate login rewards and other "daily" nonsense because we don't see our fellow players like resources to be exploited for profit, and that's all those time-crunch, pressuring systems do, exploit human psychology for money.

You realize that the game needs to make money to run well and to pay the people they need to build and grow the game, right?

That’s why there’s a subscription, will be a cash shop on top, and currently they’re selling monthly cosmetic packages. Do you need someone to lift the rock you’ve been living under?

Lycancoffee wrote: »

Not everyone needs to have “everything”. Having things that are rare and special, but don’t give you an actual advantage economically, or make you stronger in pve or pvp are a great way to create a feeling of recognition and appreciation for those who have put time and support into the game.

Yeah, we already have that in the form of monthly cosmetic packages right now. And I don’t think anyone in this thread is against exclusive “this month only!” Cosmetics being on the cash shop after release for example. But taking the “this month only” and making it “this month only, IF you log in every day, or every other day” is the problem.

Lycancoffee

Cypher wrote: »

Do you need someone to lift the rock you’ve been living under?

Rude. Just because the company is planning on collecting a sub fee and selling cosmetics doesn’t mean they have “everything they need” financially to provide us with a great experience.

I’d like to remind you that it was the company itself that created this discussion, not me. Common sense should tell you that they probably had a reason to.

Maybe instead of personally attacking me for expressing an opinion different than yours in this discussion, you should do something constructive, like making a wiki page referencing every time one of the devs says something along the lines of “we’d like to do that, but aren’t sure we can afford it.”

Caeryl

Lycancoffee wrote: »

Cypher wrote: »

Do you need someone to lift the rock you’ve been living under?

Rude. Just because the company is planning on collecting a sub fee and selling cosmetics doesn’t mean they have “everything they need” financially to provide us with a great experience.

I’d like to remind you that it was the company itself that created this discussion, not me. Common sense should tell you that they probably had a reason to.

Maybe instead of personally attacking me for expressing an opinion different than yours in this discussion, you should do something constructive, like making a wiki page referencing every time one of the devs says something along the lines of “we’d like to do that, but aren’t sure we can afford it.”

Good games don’t struggle out of a lack of monetization. Even games with all the shitty gimmicks you think are “good ideas” aren’t struggling because of lack of funds or unethical monetization schemes. They struggle because CEOs and parent companies take too much money for their private vacations instead of investing into proper game improvements.

daveywavey

Lycancoffee wrote: »

I’d like to remind you that it was the company itself that created this discussion, not me. Common sense should tell you that they probably had a reason to.

They made this discussion because there was a multiple page thread created by the playerbase which was pretty much unanimous in its dislike for login rewards, and because from out of that thread, somebody asked about it in the Q&A section of the previous stream. It wasn't directly from the company itself.

Cypher

Lycancoffee wrote: »

Cypher wrote: »

Do you need someone to lift the rock you’ve been living under?

Rude. Just because the company is planning on collecting a sub fee and selling cosmetics doesn’t mean they have “everything they need” financially to provide us with a great experience.

I’d like to remind you that it was the company itself that created this discussion, not me. Common sense should tell you that they probably had a reason to.

Maybe instead of personally attacking me for expressing an opinion different than yours in this discussion, you should do something constructive, like making a wiki page referencing every time one of the devs says something along the lines of “we’d like to do that, but aren’t sure we can afford it.”

1- You take it as a personal attack that someone on the internet said you live under a rock? Lmao

2- they absolutely have/will have what they need or else they’re doing something very wrong.

3- you’re right, the company started the discussion but it was you who came on here acting like you’re defending all the practices that gamers hate, so it’s that which I’m taking issue with.

Lycancoffee

I don't mind expressing an unpopular opinion. Its a "discussion" board. The purpose of a discussion board is to express different points of view and explore alternative courses of action. You have every right to disagree, but you don't need to be an ass about it. (I'd like to remind the moderators that it's not swearing if I'm talking about donkeys)

Caelron

Sad that I missed this discussion until now. Here are my thoughts on the topic:

I don't like daily log-in rewards, generally. But, I'm not upset at the idea of cosmetic rewards in the future, as long as it's not tied in to game-time (For example: Logging in for at least an hour vs. just logging on.)

I don't mind the concept of "rested" experience, where you gain experience at an increased-rate if you are logged-out in an inn for a period of time: which is essentially a log-in reward/catch-up mechanic. But, there's an argument to be made against it, too.

However, since there are currently cosmetics for sale for real-world money, I don't understand why the need to have log-in rewards for any reason, unless it's an independent, in-game-only cosmetic shop. (i.e. - You wouldn't be able to purchase cash-item-shop rewards with the same tokens.) But even then, players might do the math and just point out the people who play the game too much.

If it's to "give back" to the players, then I guess it counts as a "log-in reward", even though it's not a "daily" log-in reward.

Damo

I personally don't like the daily login system, sometimes it feels too much to login everyday (burnout) and because of FOMO it feels like you have to login at minimum, I've read the discussion and there seems to be many other alternatives that seem better. For extended periods too it gets to the stage where logging in is enough to play the game rather than a healthy break and login back into to game because you want to do something rather than for a login reward. Pops up too are very annoying if it were to be designed that way.

If it something that is implemented some leniency would be nice such as rather daily login rewards, weekly login rewards or other ideas suggested from others.

Maciej

Voted no. I'm not opposed to rewards for veterans who contentiously play, but exploiting FOMO to make people contentiously play seems pretty ethically dubious. The best way to make people continuously play is to just make the game good and engaging. This episode of GMT is pretty on point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbzGO_Qonu0

Haemosu

Like stated early on in thread a 20-25 goal in a 30 day time period is better as it is forgiving.
I didnt read through all the posts because I couldnt fathom why anyone would not like the system other than it being a "p2w" thing and that seems far-fetched.

I have played BDO since Headstart.
Most of the time the DLR are minimal and sometimes insulting, however there are special times when they are desired.
I also think its a good gauge for player attentiveness

LieutenantToast

Hello again everyone! We went ahead and updated the original post here with a recap of your top feedback at the bottom - thank you all again for taking the time to share all your detailed responses and examples with us!

Dayuhan

Login awards are like the ubiquitous participation trophy - everyone gets a reward just for participating. If it takes a reward to get you to login and play the game then perhaps this game is not your cup of tea.

Nerror

I just want to say, thank you for listening to us, and love you all

Liniker

Thank you for listening! and again, I don't need any rewards or incentives for playing your game, I just need a good game, deliver Ashes with everything you are promising, and I'll give you all my time and money for years and years to come

LordAdro

I think the answer here is yes, but the methodology has to be right.

I am uncertain if anyone has made this point yet but I think being able to tell someones level of activity, or guild averages could add to threat dynamics. Imagine a guild of 200 thinking a guild of 100 is easy prey only to notice an astonishing 99 percent average daily sign on vs there meager 45.

So go nuts, i like Stevens coin idea, but why not open up status indicators and badges based on last x days for guild fun.

AntVictus

LieutenantToast wrote: »

• Many shared that they felt rewards based on overall subscription length or time played vs. consistent logins were a more amenable option.
  

Not so much time played, but time subbed would be the correct way to go with this. Probably the only correct way.

Ayayaya

I personally have no objection to log in rewards as long as it is done properly, I find that if I can just log in and it counts towards the total number of logins done it does not matter if you log in on a Tuesday or a Friday, it could take you 30 days, 2 months or a year to complete.

You could do a system of where you work at it through your own pace and once the reward let's say 30 days log in is hit that reward for that character/account is done.

You could have a maximum of 90 days rewards, and then have a bonus 30-day rewards using the total number of logins system when new content is released (mid patches), You could then have a different set of rewards that could appear on new expansions.

You can also theme these based on real-life events such as Christmas for example or in-game events they can also not just be limited to 30 days you could have a 7-day build-up event or 14 days?

Or even 12 days of Christmas as the above example!

It should not feel like you are forced to login and people should be able to go on holiday without feeling like they will lose out.

You could add a certain amount of tasks that are linked to the mobile app to allow the person to count a day towards the login if they are not able to reach a computer on a specific day giving them multiple options and then they do not lose out.

The key to this is to make this a feel-good factor where that people appreciate that can promote in-game or real-life events as opposed to a chore that real-life players resent.

Chemzilla

I'm personally not a fan of daily login rewards, I am one of those unhealthy gamers mentioned 🤗

Maybe something like daily login rewards during specific holidays, for unique cosmetics? I think the reptetiviness definitely kills it for some games.

Zexo

I don't believe login rewards are particularly useful, the game itself should be incentivising enough for players to want to login.

Though I can see why people have favourable opinions of login rewards in the first place.

TheRealDex

If the game is good enough, I'll pay my sub and log in for content and fun with my friends. Give me good combat and skill mechanics and entertaining activities and challenges and I'll be excited to come back for more.

Login rewards and daily quests are not necessary if the game is good. Sure I'll take the cosmetic if it comes, but I won't pay a sub for it.

Make it a 10 logins over 30 days so casuals are not left behind if you really want to. Hardcore players will still end up getting the rare in-game ones.

The Erudite Trader

I'd rather prefer it to be a part of some kind of special event(like a ticket/voucher to avail some cosmetic or materials) that could be done annually or every 6 months to avoid it becoming a chore.

Daily quest becomes a chore because it hinders you everyday from doing what you wanted do in the first place. A weekly or monthly quest would be a more acceptable feature for me since I can decide on my own when I should do this particular task.

All in all, players tend to eventually dislike these things when it becomes a chore that hinders their enthusiasm on things that they want to do when logging in.