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Racial benefits

HakaijuHakaiju Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
edited January 2021 in General Discussion
Just a little rant against racial benefits:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Racial_benefits

Did anyone ever like to be forced onto a certain race to play a class to its full potential? Because i certainly did not. Races should be entirely cosmetic, maybe MAYBE have different base stats, which get negligible in the endgame. Furthermore, with racial augments, there will be a change in playstyle. As someone who likes to play only one character, this is awful.
Imagine this: You are a new and naive player, you level 200+ hours to reach max level, you realize your race sucks for your class. I would literally uninstall at that point.

End of rant.

So whats your opinion about this?


Edit* Please let us change our race from time to time, that would help a lot, thanks ^^
Edit** I've been convinced by now that my opinion was wrong, racial augments and stats can indeed be nice, but my first edit still stands strong :P
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Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    I enjoy the tradeoff between playing my character to the fullest or playing a race specifically to play that race.

    I prefer there to always be some form of "best" race for any given class.

    As a player that has spent most of my 20 years in MMO's either at or near the top end, I have never even once considered denying a recruit for their racial choice.

    As such, I see no downsides at all to having slight advantages to it so that those wanting to min/max can do so, and those wanting to play the race they want to play can do so.
  • HakaijuHakaiju Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 2021
    Noaani wrote: »
    I enjoy the tradeoff between playing my character to the fullest or playing a race specifically to play that race.
    I prefer there to always be some form of "best" race for any given class.
    As such, I see no downsides at all to having slight advantages to it so that those wanting to min/max can do so, and those wanting to play the race they want to play can do so.

    I honestly wouldnt care so much if we could change races at some point. Without it, I will be constantly reminded that i might have chosen the wrong race, with 200+ hours of leveling this isnt really enjoyable.
  • KatakKatak Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I doubt that the racial augments will provide enough of an advantage for you to toss the vision of your character to the wind.

    It should be enough that races are free to choose whatever classes/equipment that you as a player want to use, but I see your concern.

    If everyone is playing a specific few race/class combos, I am sure that this problem will be identified and the augment will be nerfed or removed.
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    At this point it has been made fairly clear that some classes will be better suited to certain races. It has also been stated that the same class played on different races will play quite differently say a ren'kai fighter verses a py'rai fighter due to the racial stats.

    Yes there will be min maxing with races and classes but as has been stated many times your choices will matter while you may gain advantages in some cases there will be drawbacks in others. It will be sometime before we get to see exactly what the racial differences are and Intrepid will be looking for our feedback when they are finally revealed.

    Personally I have no problem with racial stats and it sounds like your race is going to have a profound effect on how your character develops throughout the levelling process.

    As Steven has stated many times AOC will not be for everyone.
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    Never write a check with your mouth you can't cash with your ass!.
  • HakaijuHakaiju Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 2021
    Varkun wrote: »
    As Steven has stated many times AOC will not be for everyone.
    Would it hurt for the general concept of the game, if you would be able to change your race like once a month (or once every 2,3,4 months)? IMO this doesnt really hurts the risk vs reward concept that we all like so much about the game and would be a huge help for people like me.
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Honestly not sure if racial changes will ever be a thing. Feedback needs to be provided and if it is demanded by the community there may be racial changes made available at some point.

    Personally I am not against race changes.
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    Never write a check with your mouth you can't cash with your ass!.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Hakaiju wrote: »
    Varkun wrote: »
    As Steven has stated many times AOC will not be for everyone.
    Would it hurt for the general concept of the game, if you would be able to change your race like once a month (or once every 2,3,4 months)? IMO this doesnt really hurts the risk vs reward concept that we all like so much about the game and would be a huge help for people like me.

    Yes. Yes it would be bad. Choices should matter. Just like picking your primary archetype some aspects of character creation should remain static. Different races being better/worse then others is a good thing.
    Real question why should everything be the same?
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • CadacCadac Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    With all the pre launch information that will be available, how can this be an issue?
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I really like for there to be hard noticeable differences between races. Yes some combinations don't work as well, but that is fine. I don't want to live in a world where dwarfs can be just as nimble as elves, or elves be just as hardy as dwarfs. It makes no sense to me.

    WOW and FFXIV are both hyper sterilized MMOs when it comes to balance, and this kinda hurts the genre when it comes to expectations about what should be in every game. In the old days of MMOs it was expected that Orcs would always be stronger than humans, but humans would be balanced better overall. Games like DDO,FFXI, and L2 got this right. You had an idea of what someone was best at just by looking at them.

    You should know that playing a caster or ranger elf is going to be far more effective than an elf in full plate with a two handed sword. If you sink 200 hours into trying to make an elf a giga dreadnought only to find out that you are getting out paced by an orc in lesser gear. That should be your fault. Especially if the game tells you want each race is good at on the character creation screen ahead of time.

    I don't know if the races will be that extreme of a difference to the point that some combinations are 100% unplayable, but I welcome the imbalance. I like it when a game gives you the freedom to make bad choices.
    I also like seeing people try to make bad combinations work.
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    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • VolgaireVolgaire Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    If all you focus on is min-maxing your character that you most likely won't be able to play to it's full potential anyway then you are not really enjoying the game are you? For me I like the idea of a trade-off between races it adds some realism to the whole thing as I do not expect a dwarf and an elf to be equal in terms of strenght, reach, magic etc. In particualr if you are playing 1 character as you said then should you not choose based on what you think looks/feels best instead of worrying about racial differences that might get changed/patched in the future ?

    As for the last point if I put 200h+ into a game I assume I at least enjoy it and I doubt there are people who would quit over something so.....irrelevant in the long run.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Hakaiju wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    I enjoy the tradeoff between playing my character to the fullest or playing a race specifically to play that race.
    I prefer there to always be some form of "best" race for any given class.
    As such, I see no downsides at all to having slight advantages to it so that those wanting to min/max can do so, and those wanting to play the race they want to play can do so.

    I honestly wouldnt care so much if we could change races at some point. Without it, I will be constantly reminded that i might have chosen the wrong race, with 200+ hours of leveling this isnt really enjoyable.

    If you are the kind of person that feels like that small potential advantage matters to you, then take that in to consideration when creating your characters.

    Or, alternatively, don't.

    Either way, it is a choice you get to make. Having that choice is better than not having that choice. All you need to do is make it in a way where you can live with it.

    Should be easy.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    I come from an Elder Scrolls background. I'd be surprised if the different races didn't have different stats/abilities.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • WarthWarth Member, Alpha Two
    Choices Should matter. So i'm pro meaningful racial differences and against quick and repeated racial changes.
  • HakaijuHakaiju Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 2021
    Warth wrote: »
    Choices Should matter. So i'm pro meaningful racial differences and against quick and repeated racial changes.

    With that logic you shouldnt be able to change sub classes, religion, or really anything else that impacts gameplay. MinMaxing is a huge part of MMO'S (i would even say most players go for the optimal route) so having no race change available just seems stupid.
  • The racial benefits are very exciting to me, in particular the augments for abilities. You bet your arse they won't be completely balanced. Let's look at an example: an augment of a specific race might add poison to an attack, while another race's might heal you. This means in certain situations one will be far better than the other. For example in PvP the heal might be amazing, while if your role is to just do DPS in a raid setting, the poison adds to that DPS so it's better. As long as each race has certain advantages, despite not being optimal, it's going to be just fine.
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Hakaiju wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    Choices Should matter. So i'm pro meaningful racial differences and against quick and repeated racial changes.

    With that logic you shouldn't be able to change sub classes, religion, or really anything else that impacts gameplay. MinMaxing is a huge part of MMO'S (i would even say most players go for the optimal route) so having no race change available just seems stupid.

    I doubt there will ever be a race change for purchase as it can be considered Pay to Win, or Pay for Convenience, which has been stated as not being in the shops (examples given were inventory expansion slots). So I'd assume putting an item that could change your skills and abilities would fall under that same category.

    And in one of Jahlon's streams he did the math on the Min-Max scenario and the amount of options between race, archetype, class, social organization, armor type used, node residency, and religion picked - the possible combinations came out to be over 18,000 possible options. This also didn't include other things like the potential for guild perks, augmentation's per archetype and class, and even more things. So if anyone tells you that you're not Min-Maxing they're probably just guessing and don't know what they're talking about fully.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 2021
    Hakaiju wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    Choices Should matter. So i'm pro meaningful racial differences and against quick and repeated racial changes.

    With that logic you shouldnt be able to change sub classes, religion, or really anything else that impacts gameplay. MinMaxing is a huge part of MMO'S (i would even say most players go for the optimal route) so having no race change available just seems stupid.

    Not at all. In RL, a person can change their job and their religion, but they can't change their species. I expect that there'll be some sort of purchasable race change option, but as Warth said, it shouldn't be too quick/easy/etc.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • HakaijuHakaiju Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Jamation wrote: »

    I doubt there will ever be a race change for purchase as it can be considered Pay to Win, or Pay for Convenience, which has been stated as not being in the shops (examples given were inventory expansion slots). So I'd assume putting an item that could change your skills and abilities would fall under that same category.

    Quality of life normally means things like inventory space, weight limit increase etc. Something like appearance change / gender change / race change should not be treated the same way. Pay2Win is a complete different ball game
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Hakaiju wrote: »
    Jamation wrote: »

    I doubt there will ever be a race change for purchase as it can be considered Pay to Win, or Pay for Convenience, which has been stated as not being in the shops (examples given were inventory expansion slots). So I'd assume putting an item that could change your skills and abilities would fall under that same category.

    Quality of life normally means things like inventory space, weight limit increase etc. Something like appearance change / gender change / race change should not be treated the same way. Pay2Win is a complete different ball game

    Sure it should.

    If you leveled up a character of a given race and now want to play a different race, the thing to do is to then level up a character of that new race. Anything meaning you can play that race without needing to level up that new character is a convenience.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Hakaiju wrote: »
    With that logic you shouldnt be able to change sub classes, religion, or really anything else that impacts gameplay. MinMaxing is a huge part of MMO'S (i would even say most players go for the optimal route) so having no race change available just seems stupid.

    It depends on the game. WOWs DEVs has slowly given players less and less consequences to their choices over the years, and thus it was outrageous for the DEVs to say "Choices should have consequences" when introducing the covenant system. They just came off of years of giving the player base more and more freedom to change at will.

    AOC is a fresh game from the ground up. If the DEVs are telling you choices have consequences in their world. Than that is the expectations you should have of AOC.

    The larger point is that these restrictions are all in place for a reason. To promote better socialization. If you can change your name, race, gender, server. You effectively become a new person. This is part of why most new MMOs have no sense of community. When a social integration goes wrong. People can swipe their credit card, and become a new person at will. When they should have been conducting themselves in a more acceptable manner in the first place.
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    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • McMackMuckMcMackMuck Member
    edited January 2021
    I think the challenge for the devs is to come up with racial benefits and disadvantages that don't lend themselves to a class-race meta. An Elf Tank should be no better than a Human Tank, just different (maybe one benefits from an evasion build, the other benefits from a parry build, for example) and dependent on personal preference. There could be minor differences in the ability to perform in a role but nothing that makes one option clearly better than the other. There are no DPS metrics (a different discussion!), so only empirical testing would indicate the balance or lack thereof.

    I did try to start a discussion on racial benefits a few weeks ago. TL;DR I was advocating racial bonuses that are less combat focused, instead looking at things like artisan bonus, economics and luck. When I get time to find it I will link it here...
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  • HakaijuHakaiju Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 2021
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    The larger point is that these restrictions are all in place for a reason. To promote better socialization. If you can change your name, race, gender, server. You effectively become a new person. This is part of why most new MMOs have no sense of community. When a social integration goes wrong. People can swipe their credit card, and become a new person at will. When they should have been conducting themselves in a more acceptable manner in the first place.

    I hard disagree here. Social interaction comes from the need to interact with other people (no group finder, only one profession at master rank, tavern games etc.), community comes from the people behind the screen, not from the name or looks of your character. So you are just wrong IMO.
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Hakaiju wrote: »
    Quality of life normally means things like inventory space, weight limit increase etc. Something like appearance change / gender change / race change should not be treated the same way. Pay2Win is a complete different ball game

    Appearance and gender are not the same as race. How your character looks won't affect how the character plays. However, based on what we know so far, the race of a character will have a tangible impact if the player uses the racial augments.

    Let's pretend the Elf race has an augment that allows one of their skills to boost magical attack. Well if the person went as a physical attack class they might want to switch race to something that'd better help their class. Without convenience it would require the player to create a new character. Now if the character did switch race they'd still keep their levels, money, items, and so on which would be a great convenience instead of needing to re-earn everything.

    The difference between how your character looks vs how your character will play is the big differential here as anything that impacts actual gameplay, rather than cosmetic, can be considered "pay to win" or "pay to convenience" in one form or another.
  • HakaijuHakaiju Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 2021
    Jamation wrote: »
    The difference between how your character looks vs how your character will play is the big differential here as anything that impacts actual gameplay, rather than cosmetic, can be considered "pay to win" or "pay to convenience" in one form or another.

    I didnt want to make this a real money thing. Something along the lines of how you change your subclass would actual be better IMO
  • Even if we choose the race to min/max our class now it doesn't mean the meta will not change in the future.
    I remember about 2 years ago they changed some racial passives in ESO resulting in some races becoming the new meta for specific classes and a lot of players bought coins (or whatever they called it) to change their race. I personally don't care if there is some sort of race switch possibility even if I personally wouldn't use it. There is more chance I level a new alt and respec the class on my main.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Its all about the flavour my dude. They want to bring back the old concept of MMORPGs. That includes the RPG aspect of it.
    Inspiration is drawn from current and old games as well as dnd etc. Picking a race was and SHOULD BE a big decision for you.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Hakaiju wrote: »
    Edit* Please let us change our race from time to time, that would help a lot, thanks ^^

    This game may not be for you. Certain decisions should be binding. If you want to play another race than make another character with that race...
    Ashes is about making decisions and having them not be changable.
  • SerChubulasSerChubulas Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 2021
    Speaking to the OP...I feel ya. I had an issue with this a while back and talked to Jahlon about it in Discord. Going so far as to say guilds or raid groups concerned with the meta may ask specifically for the best race for the best class, I think this is inevitable in the current design of the game. Some races are going to be better suited for some classes over others. On that aspect I see eye to eye with you in that I dislike the idea, however Steven has said choices need to matter. Which is why your main archetype is not going to be respecable, only your secondary archetype will be and apparently that may have a cost or quest associated with that. Going along with that idea, I just don't see where you could 'respec' your race to whatever you like. If he isn't going to allow main archetype respec'ing he isnt going to allow race changing. My two cents on this.

    Just play what you like best. At the end of the day, it is a game so you need to enjoy it if it is going to last for you.
  • I don't care for it either. That is one thing i liked about swtor. You could play what race you wanted with what class. Though some was faction locked until you had maxed level the race.
    But i'll just wait and see how it works.
  • sarkadosarkado Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I just hope the +20 mana pool on elves doesn't make me too op.
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