Without different racial traits, we're all just the same with a different cosmetic skin. And, what's the point in that?
However, as your Tank, you might want the added strength of the Ren'kai, the armour bonus of the Dunir, the dodge chance of the Py'rai, etc.
Let's not all be cookie-cutters of the same build.
@daveywavey I'd say the point is that your race will already have a lot of other impactul repercussions on the world. Architecture, benefits in certain nodes, armor and weapon design etc.
You don't need to create what would end up being a must-pick race-archetype combo. Because it would end up being that. At best you get two options depending on playstyle (tanky tank vs evasion tank for example)
And even if there were no benefits to one race over another, the point would be that every player gets to pick what they like best and allow their skill and dedication to being better than the others. Whereas giving specific perks to certain races, influencing combat, then you're likely to be forced into playing a race you didn't want to, just to be competitive.
Imagine seeing a leaderboard, where all the top mages are X race, all the top rangers are Y race and the top tanks Z race. Where is the point in that then ? We're all the same characters with different bits for different archetypes.
@daveywavey I'd say the point is that your race will already have a lot of other impactul repercussions on the world. Architecture, benefits in certain nodes, armor and weapon design etc.
You don't need to create what would end up being a must-pick race-archetype combo. Because it would end up being that. At best you get two options depending on playstyle (tanky tank vs evasion tank for example)
And even if there were no benefits to one race over another, the point would be that every player gets to pick what they like best and allow their skill and dedication to being better than the others. Whereas giving specific perks to certain races, influencing combat, then you're likely to be forced into playing a race you didn't want to, just to be competitive.
Imagine seeing a leaderboard, where all the top mages are X race, all the top rangers are Y race and the top tanks Z race. Where is the point in that then ? We're all the same characters with different bits for different archetypes.
Architecture and armour/weapon design is pretty much purely cosmetic. It'll have no positive or negative impact on anything. I'll suggest that's no more "impactful" than the colour of the hair that you choose on your character.
Carrying on using the Tank as the example, the wiki shows there are three types: Evasion, Control, and Shield. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Tank
The chances of the same race being the best at all of them is pretty low.
Regarding the leaderboards, we're going to find that certain classes always top it. That doesn't mean we should only have one class. Similarly with races.
It makes no sense for all 9 Races to have stat attributes for each class. That would make 9 Race Attributes per class which is unheard of. The most racial attributes I've see have totalled 5 per race. 72 Racial attributes seem insane to me, which is what you will have if Races are pigeon holed into class roles. The races should synergise with multiple-builds if there are 64 Classes in total. The secondary class doesn't even add base stats. I believe the racial attributes will be Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence etc or not relate to combat at all. The reason for this suspicion is because you must seed 64 potential builds with only 9 races.
I don't mind Negative Racial Attributes but I'd rather see positive racial attributes.
Race will just act as the baseline stat seed. Which is the same across all classes.
I played a Wood Elf Sorcerer Tank in ESO. I was kicked from groups because I was a Wood Elf Sorcerer, and, kicked from groups because I was a Wood Elf Tank. I rerolled Human Templar in the end. When I was younger I never cared about racial attributes - I was a Teras Kasi Zabrak in SWG for example. I still min/maxed my Zabrak but it wasn't a true min/max for the race and class synergy lol.
There won't be 1vs1 Balance in Ashes. I did consider the fact that same Class/same Race would have 1vs1 balance and I still believe it will. If there are soft caps and hard caps on stats, then base stats won't really matter, it will just be a case of reaching soft cap/hard cap faster for some class/race synergies.
Race will just act as the baseline stat seed. Which is the same across all classes.
The archetypes will determine the stat growth.
Yeah, I understand the primary classes only boost the base stats but I was trying to explain why classes will be gimped by some suggestions. Attack speed for Elven Fighter would benefit all Classes with Attack Speed if they are Elven. Strength for a Dwarven Fighter will not be useful to Dwarven Mages or Dwarven Rangers.
The point I tried to explain is that the base stats must synergise for all classes, not be limited by specific classes per race. If you pigeon hole Racial Attributes, you also limit what weapons/armour can be used by some class/race combos if you want to min/max. The goal is to limit cookie cutters, not create cookie cutters.
It is too bad the current tests are under NDA, because, we can go over the ground repeatedly but the answers are out there. In the wiki the classes have Armour Passives, which, guides the Armour choices. You could run a different set of armour but you won't get passives from the base archetype if you do. I don't know if these passives are still relevant but the whole 'Build what you want, build how you want' seems to be under threat.
Architecture and armour/weapon design is pretty much purely cosmetic. It'll have no positive or negative impact on anything. I'll suggest that's no more "impactful" than the colour of the hair that you choose on your character.
Actually in an interview Steven had like a day or two ago, he mentions that certain races controlling certain nodes will give specific benefits to players of that race and will allow the spawning of specific NPCs where another race would have a different one entirely.
So I would say that to a more global extent, it has a bigger impact than what one might need or require from combat benefits.
Carrying on using the Tank as the example, the wiki shows there are three types: Evasion, Control, and Shield. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Tank
The chances of the same race being the best at all of them is pretty low.
I would certainly hope so. I'm interested in seeing the balance between those three types of tanks, and whether certain races will dominate certain types of archetypes. Or if a certain type of tank is straight up better.
But yeah making it so certain races are blatantly better at certain things, takes away the real choice from the players. Because at some point it's no longer a matter of risk-reward, but pick-this-or-you're-dumb type choices.
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xydrassialMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If your giving racial stats might as well make male and female different stats as well /shrug
I really hope they go with different, rather than strictly some races are better tanks than others, for example.
To stick with the tank example, they could go with different resist-augments, depending on race, so dwarves do better against cold and elves better against fire. Or whatever is applicable.
Basically, I'd prefer if the racial differences are geared more towards the secondary attributes, rather than the main ones, in a way that the different races are best in different situations, rather than one being objectively better overall.
The reality of the player base is that if there is an objectively better race overall for any class, all other races of that class will be discriminated against and not be included in groups. Also, we'll se MUCH less variety of race/class combos in the game, which I find boring. I'll just be a bunch of cookiecutter characters everywhere, with the occasional odd one out playing a sub-optimal combo.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Far to many people are meta slaves.
For AOC the lack of meters should help with this. In my experience these things are nothing if the player is competent enough to not stand in fire and do the basic mechanics.
I stopped playing WoW right after getting Ahead of the Curve acheivement on G'huun . The try hards in my guild thought everyone needed to run mythic plus all the time when not raiding. The ally guild I played with for a time also got AotC at about the same time. Looking at the combat logs for both groups they ally raid did it with a lot less DPS just by focusing on the mechanics. Our raid brute forced a couple fights.
Point is why try to force people into if this class then you HAVE to be this race?
Have the courage to be your own person and experiment. Play the way you want to.
At 9:30 Kevin talks about how after 15 years the meta in classic WoW is still changing. I encourage the whole video.
I really like Kevin, because he is promoting the "wild west" experience or sandbox experience. I love this approach, because it feels more like a cohesive world rather than a hyper optimized race.
I don't mind any kind of racial abilities as long as they will not be a subject to patch to patch balancing - what racials you get on the launch of the game are the same racials a few years later - yes the game will evolve around them, but races should be the immovable objects - no race changes - that should be a rule for the players and devs alike
How about boosts to political gains within a node of that race ?
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MushinMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
No race change, also I don't mind the stat benefits of races if it wasn't something crazy. One thing that always bothered me was having a gnome or some other tiny creature as a tank.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited February 2021
If we're talking D&D abilities, a Gnome should make a excellent Tank - as an Evasion Tank.
Small size means more difficult to hit. Master of Illusions also means more difficult to hit. If the secondary archetype is Bard, we should expect that Gnome Tank to also be a Master of Taunts.
A Nikua Tank or even a Pyrian Tank should be an excellent Tank. We should not expect them to use the same methodology to Tank as a Vek Tank or a Human Tank.
A Pyrian probably would not be a great Knight or Guardian, but should be able to be a great Warden or Argent.
I am quite a big fan of noncombat utility racials as increased walk speed when going as ghost to corpse, eating corpses - just things that do not matter, but increase the flavor of the race
I don't mind racial perks as long as they add flavor to the world in a way that makes sense. For example, maybe elves do a little bit more damage with bows than the other races because...they're elves. Maybe dwarves naturally progress faster with crafting professions involving a forge. You could also balance this by giving each race a different type of the same perk. For example each race could get a weapon, profession, society, religion, etc (just rough examples) that their race has a more natural affinity towards
Racial traits are a good thing for diversity in general. Lets instead hope there are enough other forms of horizontal progression, that the "perfect" build doesnt rely so much on me being a stubby dwarf.
If anything, they should make the racial abilities unique and impactful. The more ways to play different styles and classes, the better. This is all just my preference, of course.
Did anyone ever like to be forced onto a certain race to play a class to its full potential? Because i certainly did not. Races should be entirely cosmetic, maybe MAYBE have different base stats, which get negligible in the endgame. Furthermore, with racial augments, there will be a change in playstyle. As someone who likes to play only one character, this is awful.
Imagine this: You are a new and naive player, you level 200+ hours to reach max level, you realize your race sucks for your class. I would literally uninstall at that point.
End of rant.
So whats your opinion about this?
Edit* Please let us change our race from time to time, that would help a lot, thanks ^^
Edit** I've been convinced by now that my opinion was wrong, racial augments and stats can indeed be nice, but my first edit still stands strong :P
My son asked me the other day what race will I play, my response was whatever race passives is best suited for a healer. I'm hoping not the blue skinned bug eyed orc because that's a face only a mother could love.
Racial Benefits add a flavor to MMO's which I love. And locking in choices that hold a weight to your decision when making your character are also very satisfying to me so no, I do not believe anyone should be able to change their race or primary class once the character is created.
There sure seems to be a lot of 'group-think' among some players, I suppose that is natural. It is easy to see base stats as critical determinates of success. Perhaps because base stats are relatively easy to understand and, once some players claim to 'figure out' what a best build for a certain archetype is, then most other players assume they are right and agree. They assume it is right because the 'easy to understand' base stats imply it is right.
So, I'm going to nerd-out into stats here, so only read on if you are into that. Regression analysis studies the interactions between different characteristics, such as base stats. But the influence of each spell, your second class, your character's religious augments, your weapons, your jewelry, perhaps even your non-fighting skills....these interactions can have much more influence than just your bast stats. Multi-variate analysis reveals wonders.
For example, the best healer might not be the one with the base stats best for a healer. The interaction between augments, skills, cast speed, weapon characters and other variables might result in what appears to be a sub-par build being really great. The same with different types of DD, Tanks, or anything else in the game.
Of course, the personal characteristics and skill of the player makes HUGE difference as well. A great player on a decent character can do far better than an idiot on a great character, as most of us have observed.
I can agree to the idea that racial passives should NOT fall into the best race for each class trap. I do hope that racial passives will instead influence things such as crafting, trading, politics, sailing, foraging and religions. Minor buffs that coincide with each race that hopefully ties into the lore. IE: the Vek having better foraging skills due them living a more primitive life underground. Maybe find resources better in the dark or harvest more wood per chop. Passives along these lines. Dwarves' better minors, elves better politicians. shit like that.
I always play some kind of tank role. Some games a dwarf is the best for a tank. Most of the time those benefits mean nothing at max level. I personally hope racial benefits help in different environments and professions. Racial bonus shouldn't be a bonus to combat.
Comments
@daveywavey I'd say the point is that your race will already have a lot of other impactul repercussions on the world. Architecture, benefits in certain nodes, armor and weapon design etc.
You don't need to create what would end up being a must-pick race-archetype combo. Because it would end up being that. At best you get two options depending on playstyle (tanky tank vs evasion tank for example)
And even if there were no benefits to one race over another, the point would be that every player gets to pick what they like best and allow their skill and dedication to being better than the others. Whereas giving specific perks to certain races, influencing combat, then you're likely to be forced into playing a race you didn't want to, just to be competitive.
Imagine seeing a leaderboard, where all the top mages are X race, all the top rangers are Y race and the top tanks Z race. Where is the point in that then ? We're all the same characters with different bits for different archetypes.
Architecture and armour/weapon design is pretty much purely cosmetic. It'll have no positive or negative impact on anything. I'll suggest that's no more "impactful" than the colour of the hair that you choose on your character.
Carrying on using the Tank as the example, the wiki shows there are three types: Evasion, Control, and Shield.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Tank
The chances of the same race being the best at all of them is pretty low.
Regarding the leaderboards, we're going to find that certain classes always top it. That doesn't mean we should only have one class. Similarly with races.
Race will just act as the baseline stat seed. Which is the same across all classes.
The archetypes will determine the stat growth.
There won't be 1vs1 Balance in Ashes. I did consider the fact that same Class/same Race would have 1vs1 balance and I still believe it will. If there are soft caps and hard caps on stats, then base stats won't really matter, it will just be a case of reaching soft cap/hard cap faster for some class/race synergies.
Yeah, I understand the primary classes only boost the base stats but I was trying to explain why classes will be gimped by some suggestions. Attack speed for Elven Fighter would benefit all Classes with Attack Speed if they are Elven. Strength for a Dwarven Fighter will not be useful to Dwarven Mages or Dwarven Rangers.
The point I tried to explain is that the base stats must synergise for all classes, not be limited by specific classes per race. If you pigeon hole Racial Attributes, you also limit what weapons/armour can be used by some class/race combos if you want to min/max. The goal is to limit cookie cutters, not create cookie cutters.
It is too bad the current tests are under NDA, because, we can go over the ground repeatedly but the answers are out there. In the wiki the classes have Armour Passives, which, guides the Armour choices. You could run a different set of armour but you won't get passives from the base archetype if you do. I don't know if these passives are still relevant but the whole 'Build what you want, build how you want' seems to be under threat.
Actually in an interview Steven had like a day or two ago, he mentions that certain races controlling certain nodes will give specific benefits to players of that race and will allow the spawning of specific NPCs where another race would have a different one entirely.
So I would say that to a more global extent, it has a bigger impact than what one might need or require from combat benefits.
I would certainly hope so. I'm interested in seeing the balance between those three types of tanks, and whether certain races will dominate certain types of archetypes. Or if a certain type of tank is straight up better.
But yeah making it so certain races are blatantly better at certain things, takes away the real choice from the players. Because at some point it's no longer a matter of risk-reward, but pick-this-or-you're-dumb type choices.
Edit: seems it is on youtube youtu.be/RS3e0vuj5lA
To stick with the tank example, they could go with different resist-augments, depending on race, so dwarves do better against cold and elves better against fire. Or whatever is applicable.
Basically, I'd prefer if the racial differences are geared more towards the secondary attributes, rather than the main ones, in a way that the different races are best in different situations, rather than one being objectively better overall.
The reality of the player base is that if there is an objectively better race overall for any class, all other races of that class will be discriminated against and not be included in groups. Also, we'll se MUCH less variety of race/class combos in the game, which I find boring. I'll just be a bunch of cookiecutter characters everywhere, with the occasional odd one out playing a sub-optimal combo.
For AOC the lack of meters should help with this. In my experience these things are nothing if the player is competent enough to not stand in fire and do the basic mechanics.
I stopped playing WoW right after getting Ahead of the Curve acheivement on G'huun . The try hards in my guild thought everyone needed to run mythic plus all the time when not raiding. The ally guild I played with for a time also got AotC at about the same time. Looking at the combat logs for both groups they ally raid did it with a lot less DPS just by focusing on the mechanics. Our raid brute forced a couple fights.
Point is why try to force people into if this class then you HAVE to be this race?
Have the courage to be your own person and experiment. Play the way you want to.
At 9:30 Kevin talks about how after 15 years the meta in classic WoW is still changing. I encourage the whole video.
Words to live by!
I don't mind any kind of racial abilities as long as they will not be a subject to patch to patch balancing - what racials you get on the launch of the game are the same racials a few years later - yes the game will evolve around them, but races should be the immovable objects - no race changes - that should be a rule for the players and devs alike
― Plato
Small size means more difficult to hit. Master of Illusions also means more difficult to hit. If the secondary archetype is Bard, we should expect that Gnome Tank to also be a Master of Taunts.
A Nikua Tank or even a Pyrian Tank should be an excellent Tank. We should not expect them to use the same methodology to Tank as a Vek Tank or a Human Tank.
A Pyrian probably would not be a great Knight or Guardian, but should be able to be a great Warden or Argent.
― Plato
My son asked me the other day what race will I play, my response was whatever race passives is best suited for a healer. I'm hoping not the blue skinned bug eyed orc because that's a face only a mother could love.
So, I'm going to nerd-out into stats here, so only read on if you are into that. Regression analysis studies the interactions between different characteristics, such as base stats. But the influence of each spell, your second class, your character's religious augments, your weapons, your jewelry, perhaps even your non-fighting skills....these interactions can have much more influence than just your bast stats. Multi-variate analysis reveals wonders.
For example, the best healer might not be the one with the base stats best for a healer. The interaction between augments, skills, cast speed, weapon characters and other variables might result in what appears to be a sub-par build being really great. The same with different types of DD, Tanks, or anything else in the game.
Of course, the personal characteristics and skill of the player makes HUGE difference as well. A great player on a decent character can do far better than an idiot on a great character, as most of us have observed.