Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
The objection is specifically that the cash shop uses Fear Of Missing Out tactics to increase sales. Fear is a negative emotion to use, thus the use of "emotional manipulation" is appropriate, since the connotation matches the context.
This really shouldn't be that hard to understand, and I think you're getting too hung up on the connotation to see the point being made, whether you agree with it or not.
I mean, yes, in a way.. I am not sure what your point is here, other than trying to ascribe motives to me and make me look bad? You wrote that for selfish reasons too. Ultimately everything we do is for selfish reasons. Helping others is partly a selfish act, because it makes us either feel good, or it helps us in a different way down the line.
My motive for criticizing Intrepid for the FOMO tactics in the cash shop is that it will hurt the game long term in terms of player retention and quite possibly new player aquisition as well, unless they tone the FOMO tactics way down. There are other studies that back that up as well.
I don't care much for the past cosmetics really, but I sure as shit care about the contents and longevity of this game, because that directly affects my future fun. So selfish? Yeah, I really want this game to succeed for my own sake as well. There are ways to fundraise without using fear as a driver.
The number of cosmetics that Intrepid are able to release is essentially near infinate. It is in Intrepids best interest to keep releasing more and better cosmetics as time goes on, in order to continue bringing in money. Eventually, any cosmetics that a player may feel they want now will eventually be superseded by one they like more. Intrepid need to enure this in order to make sure they continue to make money from their shop.
As such, complaining of FOMO for these cosmetics is completely at odds with reality.
Being afraid that you may miss out on one or two is not a valid complaint, and is absolutely not reason to accuse Intrepid of emotional manipulation.
Not at all.
While I totally disagree with the use of the term 'emotional manipulation' being applied here, I have also pointed out several times (including above in this post) that even the notion of FOMO in regards to these cosmetics is not appropriate. At least not yet.
I fully understand what the complaint is, I just happen to disagree with it from several different perspectives.
Edit to add, that study you linked is about missing out on experiences, not on cosmetics. In terms of an MMORPG, that study would only be applicable to players missing out on actual content, not on cosmetics.
To you, b/c you don't value the cosmetics at all you have zero fear of missing out. I don't know how to better explain that you don't represent the majority of players b/c if you did Intrepid wouldn't even make cosmetics b/c none of them would sell.
If someone sees a cosmetic they like they have to buy it then b/c they'll never get another chance to purchase it. That's FOMO, pure and simple. This isn't an argument or opinion, it's an objective fact. You can't sell something (especially pixels) temporarily and not have it be rooted in FOMO.
The only subjective thing here is the amount of "fear" one feels. It can range anywhere from "Meh" to "OMG I HAVE TO HAVE IT" and that'll wildly vary from person to person and even day by day. To further clarify, the word fear here doesn't immediately mean "deer in the headlights I'm going to die" emotions...just that you don't want to miss out on a limited time offer.
Even if it doesn't for you, it will elicit an emotional response (however mild or extreme) to most people hence the store and hence OPs use of the term "emotional manipulation" b/c it is. That's not necessarily a bad thing and how "bad" it is is also left to the individual to decide.
The takeaway here is even if it doesn't immediately apply to you and it's not something you find yourself relating too, the use of these terms isn't wrong.
Definitely false.
This is true, if they keep on this road.
You should tell that to Steven then, because he is counting on it working for the cash shop
Cosmetics = content. What are you on about? It's an important part of AoC and Steven's goals for the game. He wants lots and lots of cosmetics in the game, because almost all players care about looking good. Some more than others of course.
But, I feel like we aren't going to agree at all on this. Your arguments, definitions and points of view seem alien to me, and indeed at odds with reality, so I think we'll just keep going in circles about this. I've made my points, peace out
If you do not limit it to this, then you have to apply it to literally any situation in which one person alters the emotions of another. This means it is applies to literally every person, every thing, every where, at all times.
This means Intrepid are emotionally manipulating you in the same way that a loved one may emotionally manipulate you by bringing you breakfast in bed, or a todler that paints you a picture. All three are forms of emotional manipulation, if you don't restrict the use of the term as outlined above.
So, you either stick to the term having meaning, or you remove all meaning from it completely. I chose to retain it's meaning, which means it is absolutely not appropriate to use here. You seem to chose to remove it's meaning, which means you can apply it here if you want, but since the term has no meaning to you any longer, there is no point in ever using it. I place value on cosmetics. I have been known to spend reasonable amounts of money on them in the past.
The reason I don't suffer from FOMO at all is because I know - again as I have said in this thread - that it is in Intrepids best interest to always one-up themselves. This means there will always be new cosmrtics that I like even more being released.
As such, there is no point in being concerned with missing out on the current ones, as I know there will be better ones.
For example, In 2014 Budweiser put out an ad against drunk driving. It's a great ad, promotes a great message, and it does so by not just tugging on your heartstrings, but grabbing firmly and yanking hard.
Nothing is inherently bad about it, but it's undeniably manipulative.
When you put two specific words together in any language, they often take on a different meaning to the actual words themselves. An example of this would be watching TV. If you tell someone that you are going to watch TV, they will understand that to mean you are going to turn the TV on, and watch something that it is displaying. They will not assume you are going to sit there watching an unplugged TV, even though that is a valid action for you to take based on the term "watching TV".
In common useage, "emotional manipulation" has a specific connotation. That connotation is always negative, and as such, the term should only be used when it fits that specific connotation.
This situation does not fit that connotation, nor does the add you linked - even if that add is manipulative.
Now, even if you totally ignore all of the above, I still don't see how that can apply to the cosmetic situation. In order for someone to be concerned that they would be missing out, they have to assume that there will never be a cosmetic that they like more made for the game.
If they do assume that there will be a cosmetic that they like more made for the game, then they have no reason to be concerned about missing out on any of the current cosmetics.
So again, back to the point I have been making all along. This thread is "wrong" on two counts.
The first is the notion of FOMO in regards to a set of items that is not even 10% complete yet, and that has to get better as time goes on in order for the set to be viable.
This is clearly a stupid position for someone to take.
On the off chance someone did take this position, there is then the use of the term "emotionally manipulative" to the practice of a company offering an item that some people may want, and restricting it in some way (artificial or not - that is a non-factor).
As a term, that is 100% out of place to be used in a situation wher FOMO is real, let alone to use here where FOMO is clearly and demonstrably not appropriate.
As far as FOMO, the amount of products is wholly irrelevant. You want the customer to make a purchase...and you want them to make it as quickly as possible. The most common way of doing this is by limiting the amount of time someone has to purchase whatever it is you're selling. Doesn't matter if Intrepid has made one or a million, so long as there's a limited time in which to purchase a cosmetic it will take advantage of a player's FOMO.
I'm sorry man, but the only thing "wrong" in this entire thread are the very definitions you're pushing b/c in the context of sales and marketing (which is what we're talking about) these are the terms and their definitions.
I'm not talking about any of these.
I am talking about the specifics of joining the words "Emotional" and "Manipulation" together. In that specific order, no less.
The three terms you used above are not interchangable with the term emotional manipulation. If you believe they are, next time you are talking with someone in advertising, specifically use the term Emotional Manipulation instead of emotional marketing, see how that conversation goes. From Intrepids perspective, sure.
I mean, not really, but I'm happy to just go with that.
The thing is, I am not talking about Intrepids perspective, just as I am not talking about the term Emotional Marketing.
I am talking about the perspective of the OP. They should know full well that Intrepid will need to continue to make better and better cosmetics in order to continue to sell them to the same group of people.
This is all basic and obvious stuff.
As such, in a situation like this, FOMO is simply not a logical thing. This means that if the OP is indeed afraid of missing out while understanding the basic and obvious fact that of course Intrepid need to constantly make better and better cosmetics, that fear is illogical, making it a phobia.
I already said I have over 5 years of experience in sales and marketing. I guarantee I've had plenty of conversations on this very topic. Emotional advertising specifically means to manipulate emotionally...which is another way to say be emotionally manipulative. I can't help you accept this man, it is just the nature of the English language that context can change the meaning of a word/term.
If I say Netflix and Chill to my wife there's no implication that I want to watch anything...however if I say it to my little brother my pants are staying on as is the TV.
Does the clinical meaning emotional manipulation imply something far more sinister and bring images of actions such as gaslighting? Sure. Doesn't mean in the context of marketing that I'm misusing a word that I've used professionally...w/ professionals...for years.
They don't need to make "increasingly better" cosmetics. Better is wholly subjective and near impossible to properly define which is actually a common topic when it comes to the lack of clarity w/ what the "better" cosmetics will be in the game. Intrepid only needs to make different cosmetics for the store and I'd bet money that that's what the absolute vast majority of players are expecting each month...not better, merely different/unique.
As it was my profession up until last March I'd like to think I know a little about these terms and I'm telling you, it's FOMO and it's emotional manipulation.
Neither are inherently bad or malicious...but it is what they are.
However, there is no meaning of the term "emotional manipulation" that is anything other than a description of a form of abuse. That is the singular meaning those two words have when joined in that manner.
You may well have been involved in emotional advertising while working in that field, but that was not emotional manipulation.
Likewise, you can talk about trying to illicit a specific emotional response, or about manipulating emotions. These things are not the same thing as emotional manipulation, because as I have said many times, those two words have a very specific and very narrow meaning when joined in that way, and that meaning is without exception a form of abuse.
While it is not my particular area of expertise, I've sat in on some fairly high level meetings involving marketing discussions over the last decade and a bit. I've heard discussion about emotional advertising a lot. I have never once heard anyone utter the words "emotional manipulation" in that order, however.
I am fairly sure they would be out of a job if they did.
Emotional advertising is absolutely not an inherently bad thing. Emotional manipulation, however, is. While obviously true that better is subjective, Intrepid need to attempt to continually make better.
Every new cosmetic that goes up for sale is being sold, primarily, to people that had the opportunity to buy previous cosmetics. That new cosmetic will only sell to someone that either sees that cosmetic as being better than the one they already bought, or better than the ones they decided to not buy.
As such, it is in Intrepids best interests to always make better cosmetics, even if that is a subjective term.
Which is derived from the Merriam Webster definition of Manipulate
I've sat in college lectures on exactly this topic I've talked w/ people where we used the terms interchangeably. You might not agree w/ it, but I'm using this term correctly.
Again, it is not what we are talking about, just as emotional advertising as a term is not what we are talking about.
Since we have discerned that his is a common advertising/marketing tactic, these people can not simply expect literally every company in the world to alter their marketing and sales plans just for them. Rather, these people need to work on what it is that makes them - and only them - feel this unjustified, illogical need.
There is nothing wrong with being selfish. As i said, saying you want something and you would prefer something changed is fine to me. That's what you should be doing on these forums. My issue is you are using selfishness as a justification for using "emotional manipulation" as a way to get what you want.
If you read that study, can you tell me the part of the study that applied more to this. From what i read, it sounded like the studies boiled down to them telling a group of people all the cool shit they could be doing while having them do something else and asking how it effected their enjoyment of what they did. To me, while we call it the same thing and i'm sure there are some similar emotions, that's pretty different from missing out on getting a product.
When it comes to FOMO, we can agree that it is a component of any limited time offer, can we not? Are all limited time offers where the limitation is not created by actual supply bad? Doesn't context need to be taken into consideration?
I'm not sure if you play wow but there are various things that can only be earned over either a pvp season or an expansion. Since they are only available for a limited time, there is a FOMO component to them. Is that bad? Is that hurting wow's subscriber base?
What about limited time sales? even if you can still get the product after the sale, there is still a FOMO component to that. Is that bad?
I'll give my own personal frustration with this type of marketing. I've been following this game a while, not terribly closely, and especially I backed off quite a bit after the APOC fiasco (I understand why APOC existed in the first place, no need to explain). Now, I love wolves, have ever since I was a child. So after coming back to following the game more closely I was furious when I discovered that I missed the Rime and Regal cosmetic month. Especially given that they refuse to bring back the cosmetics in general. You cannot tell me that there will be another Wolf-drawn sleigh. If there is people will be livid that there "oh so special limited time -insert sound of disgust- cosmetic" has been nearly replicated with slight changes. I on the other hand will be quite happy I get another chance at it. If I can find a way to nearly duplicate the wolf-drawn sleigh with in game items, people will be equally pissed.
Here is how I see these particular cosmetics, because of the above: There will never ever be another wolf-drawn sleigh. There will never be another wolf pup non-combat pet. There will never be another reindeer mount. Hell I'd be surprised if we saw another wolf-drawn ANYTHING.
Now, so far, I'm extremely excited for this game, and was planning on dropping money for the alpha 1 access just to get a feel for the game and give my feedback. However, what has primarily stopped me is this horrible marketing. I've personally come to terms with the idea of pre-order garbage, but this is taking it too far. This isn't just pre-order. This is pre-order cosmetics that we can't even use yet that will also never be available again.
This is a detriment to the game in my honest opinion. Here's why:
If I had that wolf-drawn sleigh, personally, I don't care if it's special or no one else can buy it again, I just want it for my own personal use. The fact of the matter is, this is a very very manipulative way of marketing and as many have already stated seems rather unnecessary for a game that is already fully funded by Steven. Based on what I've seen, Steven is trying to not have to put forth the money that he already committed by making money while the game is in development.
Furthermore, I feel that the devs are backing themselves into a corner with cosmetics like this. As they have stated that there will never be variant of these cosmetics available via store or in game acquisition. So there will never be another wolf pup non-combat pet at all. There will also never be another Reindeer. Because there is no way of making these not just variants.
I feel that what will ultimately happen here is them explaining their way out of this with loop-hole BS, and I'm ultimately just waiting for that day at this point. The other option is a dead game, imo.
There is almost no doubt that there will be wolf or wolflike mounts available in game - not even cosmetics, but actual wolf mounts. There is an entire profession dedicated to breeding different types of animals, and I would have to think that wolves would have been the second animal in the developers list of things to include, right after horses.
With this assumption, you can then have wolves pulling literally any caravan type you like, you are in no way limited to it being a sleigh (though you could make it a sleigh if you wanted). You can also have a wolf as your mount, and probably even a wolf as your packmule.
This seems much better to me than being limited to a single look cosmetic for your entire caravan.
Not gonna happen. To do so would damage their reputation, and all of the good will they have earned thus far.
It could possibly lead to legal action. Intrepid would be crazy to reverse course on this at this point, or any point in the future.
I have only been here for half a year, but as far as I can tell. This topic has come up multiple times in the last few years, and Intrepid has not seemed to consider changing course. Which is the correct action.
Cosmetics are not going to ruin the game. This is not Baribes dress up game. All of the kicking and screaming in this thread, or the next one like it a week from now is not going to change that.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Now let me explain, I would have no issues with this at all if the game was out and there was just a store button in game that I could click each month to see the new cosmetics, but as of this moment, I can't even use these cosmetics. It's possible that I'll never get to use these cosmetics regardless of purchase. I'm not saying that they should go back on their word and re-release cosmetics onto the store. I'm saying that I feel they have and will continue to back themselves into a corner because of what they have said on stream about not being able to acquire variants of the cosmetics by any means.
That would mean they couldn't have in game horse mounts, as they have released horse mounts on the shop.
What Intrepid said is that you won't find recolors of purchased cosmetics in the game as something players can find - but you may find parts of purchased cosmetics. As an example, the shoulder piece of a purchased cosmetic may be used in game as an items specific look - even though the shoulder portion of the cosmetic can't be used by itself.
They have never said there won't be cosmetics in the same general class as what has been released on the store, simply that they won't recolor or re-material those models.
The quote you want it here...
I actually play FFXIV from time to time. I only come back to prog new Savage, or help friends with EX. I literally do nothing else in that game. I have a keyboard macro that allows me to skip cutscenes faster, and I have zero clue what the story is about. I generally have one outfit that I have worn for years. When I get a new piece of gear, I just glamor my outfit over it. I am know a lot of people who just glamor their classes artifact set. Fashion is not a deal breaker in FFXIV for me at all. I have plenty of FFXIV friends who don't care. I think even "Mr. Happy" has never unlocked glamour on his main character last I checked? If they said they were getting rid of Savage, my sub would stop that day. In the case of FFXIV I can't agree with you.
They could say: "Once we go live, the monthly supporter packs will be replaced with a system that has new cosmetics that stay in the shop for X months.". I bet that would be acceptable to most people, but right now we are living with a different system.
I pointed this out in another thread, and have had it clarified by the DEVs. The cosmetics that are in the monthly supporter packs are not great from a fashion prospective. If "Fashion is your endgame", than you want nothing to do with these cosmetics because they are not interchangeable or dyable. What you see is how you look. Best case in that you can toggle the helmet. There are a few sets like that in FFXIV, but you don't see them worn often because they are not fun.
My hope would be that once the game goes live, they put new cosmetics in the store that are interchangeable/ dyable and have a more than a month shopping window. Then these supporter cosmetics can be the extra special costumes they are intended to be.
The mounts/caravan skins on the other hand. Those are valuable. People are going to lose their mind when they realize that they can't have this beautiful beast:
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
You have to realize that if every FFXIV player was like you and your friends that game would be long since dead. It has a massive cosmetic population. The ward system had to be expanded to allow for more player housing because people like cosmetics THAT much. I truly believe you are in the minority here. Yes, I also will want to progress through dungeons and raids in AoC, but it definitely will not be the ONLY thing that I do. Nor do I think that it will be possible for an entire player base to ONLY want to do that one thing in AoC. AoC is designed around an entire community, not just your one niche way of playing the game. I also believe that a server will require all types of players, not just your type of playing. Which is fine. That means that your way of playing is perfectly valid and actively valuable to the game, but I do not think that an entire server can be run with people who have just your mind set, you'd have holes in your economy, you'd be lacking materials to build things, you'd lack crafters to repair gear, you'd lack materials on the auction house to buy for those of us who are too lazy to farm them ourselves, you'd lack master crafters to craft/repair legendary equipment, you'd lack master gatherers who can get extremely rare gatherables off of boss mobs.
It's highly possible that I just simply took that thought and ran with it in my head. So be it. At this point I still dislike the monthly cosmetic thing for the same reasons as OP. I think it's bs artificial scarcity for the purpose of using FOMO to make money. While yes the game needs these funds, I feel they could be doing it in a much more, for lack of a better term, honorable way.
Unlike @Heruwolf I don't care for past limited skins. Yeah it sucks if there was a particular set you liked but I consider it as "I was there"-reward. In addition I read that there will be variants IG for shop cosmetics (see here)
Now my problem comes with future skins in pre-order packs. To use a similar "wolf set"-example, what if I pre-order the Beta 1 access pack now but in september the very same pack will have a set dedicated to platypus. And it happens that I really like platypuses. Why should I spend more money instead of just choosing this skin instead of the one I bought a couple of months earlier ?
I don't think any player would feel betrayed if you could just choose a skin out of any pack from the date you pre-ordered until launch.
(That said there might as well be platypus variants IG...)
Edit : Re-read Steven's comment. Cosmetic variants are for NPC only ^^'
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Design_pillars
Cosmetics is listed exactly one time on that page as a subsection under player agency.
Personally I am 100% confident. AOC would be fine with zero cosmetics. Some would say it might be better off, because cosmetics attract a "certain crowd". I am fine with cosmetics being the game, but it's not why the game was made. What is special about AOC is node warfare, and the focus on community and socialization.
Cosmetics is a single thread in that fabric that would not not destroy the whole cloth if removed.
Lastly:
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
You seem like a somewhat intelligent person (as far as people on the internet go), and yet you "fell" for a FOMO that wasn't due to lack of information. It is perfectly reasonable to assume this is something that happens - people fear they are missing out on something when really there is probably going to be something they like better in the live game.
I don't personally consider this to be Intrepids fault.
I would feel betrayed because I want Snail Boi to be special. My FFXIV character will never have that slick back tattoo because I started playing in Heavensward. I am fine with that because all of my FC friends who have it feel special, and if I was able to get it. I would be taking something away from them. They have their tattoo, and it is special.
I don't know how many people was able to get snail- boi, but I can tell you right now. If the number of people with that mount ever goes up... I ain't gonna be happy about it.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Races, roleplaying, social animations, player Businesses, ships, parlor games, weapons, armor, housing, node housing, apartments, freeholds, mounts, mules, dragons, character creator, gear appearance, cosmetics, skins, costumes, accessories, all of these things innately involve cosmetics. A Race is a cosmetic, roleplaying involves cosmetics, social animations are there for nothing other than immersion, which is further achieved via cosmetics, player businesses would be worthless without cosmetics, ships will have some sort of flavor to them from the player or guild that owns them, likely via cosmetics, parlor games are likely to be played in taverns that are player businesses that are decorated via cosmetics, weapons, armor, housing, node housing, apartments, freeholds, mounts, mules, dragons, all of which yes serve a purpose but would be very very bland if we were all riding the same thing or wearing identical armor, therefore, cosmetics.
I'm sorry but you will not convince me that a game that has it's very first design-pillar be "Engaging and Immersive story" and it's third being "Player Interaction" and it's fourth being "Player Agency" that cosmetics will not make up a large portion of this game...