Healer Targeting System

I am assuming I can click on Party/Raid members and select them for certain heal skills?
Will we be able to also click on the individual who isnt in Party/Raid for the same selection?

I was a healer in another game where we had a Defensive Target as well as an Offensive Target simultaneously.
Will this be a thing in AoC?

Asking for a friend. 😁

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Heruwolf

daveywavey wrote: »

Heruwolf wrote: »

I'm also interested to see how healing a 250 v 250 PVP battle is going to be. Is everyone in the same raid group? Am I going to have 250 health bars on my screen as a healer? Or will I have to have 500 nameplates for allies and enemies? Only time will tell I suppose.

I believe the default party size is 8, and it goes up to 40 for a Raid. I don't think we'll have the 250 health bars issue.

Here's the problem with that.... 40 does not go into 250 evenly. You will have 10 members who are not in a raid group. or are in their own raid group that is significantly smaller than the rest. Of course you could have 10 raid groups of 25, but that just seems wrong... I imagine a different system would be implemented than the standard 40 man raid groups for these large scale battles. Personally, I would want raid frames of people who are close enough to be healed and people who are just slightly too far to be healed. Now, maybe I'm thinking too much WoW and not enough ESO. If most of the heals are targeted then, it's probably moot and you just have ally nameplates up with health bars over them.

Heruwolf

Noaani wrote: »

Heruwolf wrote: »

I'm also interested to see how healing a 250 v 250 PVP battle is going to be. Is everyone in the same raid group? Am I going to have 250 health bars on my screen as a healer? Or will I have to have 500 nameplates for allies and enemies? Only time will tell I suppose.

My hope (as in, I have no reason to assume this) is that some heals, both single target and AoE, only work on players in your own group of 8, other heals work on any player in your raid, and still others work on anyone not directly hostile to you.

What this will do is force some order to all raid situations, rather than allowing for a disorganized free for all to reign.

It also makes PvE raiding more interesting, which is a nice bonus.

I can agree with that. PVE Healing is very very fun, there is something very nostalgic about watching raid frames bounce around. Personally, I prefer heals that don't specifically target a pre determined group, but rather the nearest 5 most injured, or 4 or 8 or whatever number balances out best for AoC. The problem with "group only" heals is that they end up rarely being used, because they are almost always inefficient because someone probably doesn't need healing. Any single target heal should definitely be able to heal any non-hostile, imo.

TheHiddenDaggerInn

I agree it needs a dual targeting system, Warhammer Online did this well and I hope they insitute this version. In PvP and when you have both healing and offensive spells it would be very tedious to have to keep clicking to both targets.

Noaani

Don't pay too much attention to the details of that 250 number, that is simply a technical goal for Intrepid. They don't expect people to form up in to exact groups of 250 people and then attack other groups of exactly 250 people, they just want the game to be able to handle that many people.

Heruwolf

Noaani wrote: »

Don't pay too much attention to the details of that 250 number, that is simply a technical goal for Intrepid. They don't expect people to form up in to exact groups of 250 people and then attack other groups of exactly 250 people, they just want the game to be able to handle that many people.

Hmmm, I suppose you're right. I was running on misinformation there. It seems they actually want 500v500. Seeing as these are supposed to be open world, I look forward to seeing how Intrepid handles the UI during that time, because that could thoroughly impact the quality of those sieges.

Haemosu

The 250/500 players dont need to be in the same party.
40 in a Raid is quite enough.
If you are wandering away from your heals then the UI is not the issue.
Hopefully I can select you being outside my raid and pop some HoTs on you if I got the time.
Some players are tryna kill me!

Lycancoffee

I hope that they do exactly what they said they would do, and make some healing skills "on target" while other healing skills should be action based.

"slash target [targetname]" commands are so exploitable. I hope we never see them in AoC. Hiding behind walls, up ledges, and around giant rocks healing party members is also exploitable and a source of so many bad experiences in many other MMO games.

Calling on experiences from many other games, a great healing system that would allow for a better skill curve in healing would involve a variety of heal targeting.

Healing ease should be balanced with healing risk and difficulty. The easier it is to target a heal, the less mobility it should give the caster, and the longer it should take to cast. Here are some guiding examples, all of which should never be considered as absolute rules:

Some heals could be cast on target and require line of sight.
Some heals could be ground targeted.
Some heals could be AoE around the caster and ignore line of sight.
Some heals could create an object on the ground that explodes in healing after a duration of time.
Some heals could create an object on the ground that a friendly player could activate to get a heal.
Some heals could be targetable by clicking on the party name, but require the healer to stand still to cast.
Some heals could be conical and ignore line of sight.
Some heals could fire a narrow bolt of healing that hits everything be between the healer and target.
Some heals that don't require the healer to either face, place, or aim, could force the healer to stand still and have a casting time. These would be easy heals to target but would come with a mobility trade.
Some heals that allow the healer to be super mobile would be better if they cause the healer to run in and out of the action, or to actually target their partner.

There are so many other creative ways that healing could have variety. I hope that the devs explore many of these options and put some spice into the old "key press to target > heal" system. It was good for its time, but tomorrow's MMO can be so much better.

Songcaller

There was a recent example of 'Droppable Health and droppable Mana' but most people don't pick them up. I don't mean in Ashes or Apoc but in another MMO. I forget the MMO name, I've played too many MMOs. But yeah, heals not directed or passive are never taken up by the majority of the player base in most MMOs.

Asgerr

Neurath wrote: »

There was a recent example of 'Droppable Health and droppable Mana' but most people don't pick them up. I don't mean in Ashes or Apoc but in another MMO. I forget the MMO name, I've played too many MMOs. But yeah, heals not directed or passive are never taken up by the majority of the player base in most MMOs.

That sounds like something a Mystic could do back in Tera. Not sure if any other MMO has implemented that feature though

Songcaller

Yeah, I thought the class was Mystic but I couldn't place the Mystic lol. Mystic Bubbles were good with a good group but if you didn't have a premade group good luck getting people to pick up the bubbles.

Haemosu

When I was Healing in TSW (The Secret World) there was Blood heals and it had a skill called Linked Veins where you could blast your Target with a linked Heal then there would be an AoE heal on that Target for Friendlies in a vicinity of the Target. They would get "incased" in a Red Bubble that would give a indicator who was being Healed.
I think the Devs should look into TSW's heal system as it was extremely satisfying.
An amazing game and such a great experience.

Songcaller

Sounds much akin to The Blood Mage in Vanguard. Loved The Blood Mage, siphoned health from enemies and distributed health to allies. Was my favourite healing class so far, Celestial from DC Universe Online is my second favourite healer so far.

Edit: Celestial would flip, jump, drop and rotate for heals. Loved the movement and the scope. Celestial was better at healing smaller groups though because of the 6 Person Shield. Would have been a beast if the shield could cover a whole raid in one. I did solo heal in Raids with Celestial though, just wasn't as smooth as group content.

Leiloni

Haemosu wrote: »

I am assuming I can click on Party/Raid members and select them for certain heal skills?
Will we be able to also click on the individual who isnt in Party/Raid for the same selection?

Yes they'll have standard party frames where you can click on other players. They mentioned this in a recent livestream (I think December where they were doing the dual boss fight). So it'll be standard MMO stuff. In that livestream the function was apparently bugged and they couldn't click people, but they said it was a bug and would be fixed.

Haemosu wrote: »

I was a healer in another game where we had a Defensive Target as well as an Offensive Target simultaneously.
Will this be a thing in AoC?
Asking for a friend. 😁

They haven't mentioned Defensive/Offensive targets and it's not common so I'm going to assume no. But most games do have a Focus Target feature built into the UI that you can use for a similar purpose.

Noaani wrote: »

Hover healing is when a heal is cast on who ever your curser is on in game.

It is worth noting that many heals (not all) will be targeted via action combat mechanics, not tab target mechanics. This means you may have to physically aim them, rather than selecting a character to target them on.

Well this is down to the player. We know Cleric and every other class will have a mix of tab targeted and action combat abilities, and they will be able to slot up to 75% of one type and 25% of another type on their bar. So if OP wants to have 75% of her abilities be tab targeted, she can certainly do that. I imagine the other 25% would be standard AoE heals, buffs, AoE dps, etc. so it could feel like a standard MMO if they wanted to play like that.

Jamation wrote: »

I've played games with the "hover" heal thing but still preferred the guarantee of being able to target them manually. Not trying to risk losing a party member because someone decided to dash in front of my mouse.

Only time I've really used that hover thing is when there is an AOE and to reduce time the AOE casts where your mouse is instead of you having to click the skill and then click the AOE placement again.

I completely agree. I've tried briefly hover/mouseover healing and it screwed me up. Not only for the reasons you mentioned but even just the idea of having to keep my mouse hovered over the group frames at all times with a mouse that now has other functions is odd. I tend to like to move my mouse away and do other things with it, even just mindless camera movement or whatever. I like having that free for normal movement but more so than that, as you said, it's nicer to have your target locked on and not worry about accidental switching or other weirdness, and I can be free to heal or do other things as needed. I've done the standard click target, then hotkey to heal thing for so long that it's far faster, accurate, and efficient for me than any other method.

As for your second comment, GW2 had an option in the settings menu for AoE dps/heals to be placed with one click instead of two. I can't imagine why a similar option couldn't be implemented here.

CakeBanditJr wrote: »

I REALLY hope we are allowed mouse over macro healing since we aren't going to have mods! I don't mind AOE healing to an extent but too much of it makes it really boring and makes zero sense to me. I want to use my reaction/aiming skill to either mouse-over or click a health bar rather than spam AOEs. My 2 cents..

I don't think they're going to have macros so I'm not sure they'll have mouseover healing. I'm not sure if there's a way they can build it into UI or settings menu? Either way, it's not hard to heal without it. More MMO's exist without that functionality than with it and people manage just fine.

Heruwolf wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Heruwolf wrote: »

I'm also interested to see how healing a 250 v 250 PVP battle is going to be. Is everyone in the same raid group? Am I going to have 250 health bars on my screen as a healer? Or will I have to have 500 nameplates for allies and enemies? Only time will tell I suppose.

I believe the default party size is 8, and it goes up to 40 for a Raid. I don't think we'll have the 250 health bars issue.

Here's the problem with that.... 40 does not go into 250 evenly. You will have 10 members who are not in a raid group. or are in their own raid group that is significantly smaller than the rest. Of course you could have 10 raid groups of 25, but that just seems wrong... I imagine a different system would be implemented than the standard 40 man raid groups for these large scale battles. Personally, I would want raid frames of people who are close enough to be healed and people who are just slightly too far to be healed. Now, maybe I'm thinking too much WoW and not enough ESO. If most of the heals are targeted then, it's probably moot and you just have ally nameplates up with health bars over them.

I doubt you'll have all 250 on your screen at the same time. Back when I played Aion and they had a system for joining multiple full raids of players together, it just amounted to a shared chat channel and a UI to view/manage the connected raids. But all you had on screen was your personal raid group to heal, nobody else. I imagine you'd see the same thing here - you see and heal your raid and other healers are assigned to other raids (and likely in other locations often doing other things anyway).

Asgerr wrote: »

I remember in Tera, which was heavily focused on action combat:
- Some skills had you click on the target to heal
- Others had you click the ability and the you would hover over multiple targets, which highlighted them as locked on and then the spell was cast

Something like that could be useful, specially if the camera turns with the mouse like an fps. Cause then some party members may end up off screen, but still be targetable.

That was certainly a great game to heal with but I don't get the impression they're going to design heals like that, here for the action combat abilities. I get the impression it's more standard AoE type stuff - PbaoE, GtAoE, cone, TAoE, etc.

Haemosu

Has there been any mention of HoT's?

maouw

Haemosu wrote: »

Has there been any mention of HoT's?

Recent cleric skill included an AoE HoT

Leiloni

Haemosu wrote: »

Has there been any mention of HoT's?

Here are the levels 1-10 skills for a Cleric - https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Cleric

Frostshot1

Healing in Tera was fun, it had a combination or tab targeted and aoe healing. I hope we are not stuck with mouse over healing, as I prefer action camera combat these days.

I'm sure there will be some kind of HoT mechanics in the game. I think it would be hard not to.

Songcaller

I hope we can keybind the following way for targets in a 40 man raid:

Plain F Numbers. (1-8)
Alt F Numbers (9-16)
Shift F Numbers (17-24)
Control F Numbers (25-32)
Tab F Numbers. (Razer Hypershift) ((33-40))

It would enable us to cover a 40 Man Raid for targeted Heals. I am aware not all heals will be targeted, but, it would be nice if we can cover a 40 Man Raid without having to mouse over.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

It would enable us to cover a 40 Man Raid for targeted Heals.

While obviously every game is different, I have never set up a raid where I expect players to heal everyone in the raid.

That said, the game I spent most time playing, healers had buffs and debuffs to keep maintained, as well as cures to deal with. Healing was perhaps half of a healers role, and so they only ever had 5 other players to concern themselves with.

I guess if healers don't have anything to do other than heal, it makes sense that they need more people to heal in order to not be bored.

Basically, what I am saying is that if the game is designed in a way where healers have things to do other tha heal, there shouldn't be a need for healers to have a setup like this - on the other hand if all they do is heal, it would be needed.

Songcaller

In actual fact the method is best when a Healer must damage and heal. It means there is less downtime between damage and heals. It means you can throw a heal to anyone in range at any time between the damage abilities you are undertaking. It is far swift than mousing over to heal those in range, mouse over the target to deal damage, mouse over those who need healing. Basically, it enables free-flow of active abilities without the need for macros.

My request stems from a solo-healer experience but in Ashes you won't be solo healing most likely. I do love to compete for highest heals and also combat for damage (If we had a DPS Meter which we shouldn't have in Ashes). So, the request gives scope for smoothness rather than jagged dispositions.

Edit: The main issue is the fact that I adapted a 24 Man Raid Style into 40 Man Raid Parameters. It means the targets are obviously much larger in scope. It is nothing special to perform like I have stated in a 24 Man Raid. 5 Groups of 8 needed a larger pool of keybinds though.

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