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Macros in Ashes?

I haven't played to many mmorpgs, mostly ESO and WoW. But when it comes to world of warcraft, one can write some pretty interesting macros to help and assist you with your rotation and other things.

Examples:
Targeting macros, spell sequence, change/cancel form or stance, potion/food buff into a spell, modifier to add multiple spells to the same button, and much more.

I'm just wondering what other people think about macros and how other games have implemented it compared to WoW, and if it should be a thing in Ashes.
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Comments

  • there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes.
    That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    The issue with macros is that from an anti cheat metric perspective it's difficult to define what a macro is against a script. And in order to catch all scripts sometimes you have to prevent the macro usage. So really that's a that's a data issue. If we allow for macros then we lose our ability to precisely ban script users, botters.[1] – Steven Sharif
    south-park-rabble-rabble-rabbl-53b58d315aa49.jpg
  • The issue with macros is that from an anti cheat metric perspective it's difficult to define what a macro is against a script. And in order to catch all scripts sometimes you have to prevent the macro usage. So really that's a that's a data issue. If we allow for macros then we lose our ability to precisely ban script users, botters.[1] – Steven Sharif

    Yeah that sounds reasonable, but couldn't you make a in-game system that allows you to code/create your macros. This will mean that the team will have full control over what commands can and can not be used. All other macros and scripts will be seen as cheating.

    Do you guys think macros should be a thing?
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2021
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Do you guys think macros should be a thing?

    As long as the HUD and Key bindings are robust, they should not be needed.

    While I understand that macros are convenient, and have used them where necessary in every game that allows them. I don't need macros to play most games. FFXI is actually the only game I would never play without macros (I use quite the macros suite in that game).

    I will adjust my opinion on this further as I get into the alphas, but I don't expect that macros will be needed.
    I would also like to add that with a decent programable keyboard, and key binds you can accomplish nearly anything a macros system would allow. The only reason I use macros in FFXI is to turn macros into those key binds since FFXI did not allow you to change your key binds.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Macros suck. I hate the fact that my skill in WoW PvP is partially based on how many macros I'm using.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Macros can be good and can be really bad as well.
    Playing Rift pre first expansion. I was running a dungeon the tank had a macro set up for his rotation. He got up and answered the door for pizza delivery during a boss fight. Never lost aggro and only I knew he got up cause we were in Vent talking. This kind of stuff is bad. I also had a macro for my battle rez with a snarky comment about being lazy during combat when I would rez someone. That was good and fun. I can go either way if they don't....meh.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • KearavainKearavain Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 2021
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Yeah that sounds reasonable, but couldn't you make a in-game system that allows you to code/create your macros. This will mean that the team will have full control over what commands can and can not be used. All other macros and scripts will be seen as cheating.

    You bring up a good point. If there were a block-based system like Scratch (Click to see), it would make a lot of sense for an in-game macro system; as the limitations and scope of the macro would be defined by the blocks.
    The issue with macros is that from an anti cheat metric perspective it's difficult to define what a macro is against a script. And in order to catch all scripts sometimes you have to prevent the macro usage. So really that's a that's a data issue. If we allow for macros then we lose our ability to precisely ban script users, botters.[6] – Steven Sharif
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Security_systems#Macros

    Yet, suppose a system like this is put in place; in that case, each custom macro can have its unique UID and be easily identified per user (theoretically even shared), making it very easy to identify. Likewise, a macro system would need to be pretty limited (no "wait" commands) as you would quickly run into the issue pointed out by Steven above. Thinking about it, I am not sure about the overhead of data in client -> server communications either (my gut says without timing functions, it would be relatively minuscule, but I am no expert), and the workload of implementing such a system would most likely be astronomical. We can dream, though.
    vmangman wrote:
    Macros suck. I hate the fact that my skill in WoW PvP is partially based on how many macros I'm using.

    I think the point lies somewhere in when does a macro become a script. In my mind, a macro allows the simple manipulation or customization of how a player skill is executed (and can be executed in one game loop). Likewise, a script tends to automate some aspect of the player's experience (and is executed over multiple game loops).

    Continuing that viewpoint, I feel macros enable gameplay styles unique to the user by customizing the user experience - while scripts often retract from the experience because they usually remove or automate game mechanics.
  • Macros can be good and can be really bad as well.
    Playing Rift pre first expansion. I was running a dungeon the tank had a macro set up for his rotation. He got up and answered the door for pizza delivery during a boss fight. Never lost aggro and only I knew he got up cause we were in Vent talking. This kind of stuff is bad. I also had a macro for my battle rez with a snarky comment about being lazy during combat when I would rez someone. That was good and fun. I can go either way if they don't....meh.

    I wouldn't call that a macro, that's much more like a script xD

    In wow classic for example you can not have more than one spell that activated the GCD (global cool down) in a macro. This means that you can not have a rotation in your macro, but you can have for example a non-gcd spell into a GCD spell.

    Example: in wow classic I play a druid, druids have a non-gcd spell that allows the next healing spell to be instant. I have a macro that activated this spell and instantly after I cast my biggest heal with out any casting time. It's quick and very useful in I damaged situations.

    Now, i don't know if ashes well have a GCD it not, but if they implemented their own macro system in the game that can limit it how much they want.

    But I also agree with @Vhaeyne in that, if the UI and keybinds are robust then macros may not be needed.
  • Macros are cheating, plain and simple.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited January 2021
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Macros are cheating, plain and simple.

    Wouldn't that mean that macros keys on mouses and keyboards are cheating?

    And I understand that IP may see it like cheating because of convince, but why do you see it as cheating?
  • Using additional coding to perform actions quicker than should be possible in order to gain an advantage over an opponent. I remember PvP in ESO where I'd be hit 14 times in a single second, cos the other player was spamming macros. Cheating, plain and simple.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Using additional coding to perform actions quicker than should be possible in order to gain an advantage over an opponent. I remember PvP in ESO where I'd be hit 14 times in a single second, cos the other player was spamming macros. Cheating, plain and simple.

    How do you prevent this if the spam is coming from the keyboard hardware?
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Using additional coding to perform actions quicker than should be possible in order to gain an advantage over an opponent. I remember PvP in ESO where I'd be hit 14 times in a single second, cos the other player was spamming macros. Cheating, plain and simple.

    How do you prevent this if the spam is coming from the keyboard hardware?

    That's a good point. If it's possible to hit you 14 times in a second with a macro it's also possible to do it manually. That's just bad game design at this point.
  • rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited January 2021
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Using additional coding to perform actions quicker than should be possible in order to gain an advantage over an opponent. I remember PvP in ESO where I'd be hit 14 times in a single second, cos the other player was spamming macros. Cheating, plain and simple.

    But ESO was never a game where macros was intended to be used or needed (maximum of 5 spells per bar). And the real problem with eso was the animation canceling, and if you did that with a "macro" then it's a script and not a macro.
    And if I remember correctly ESO did not have a in-game macro system?

    Macro in my definition is a very simple and basic single press = single GCD spell + side action. No "wait" commands or something like that.
  • LycancoffeeLycancoffee Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Macros and mods don’t belong in competitive games. Consoles consider macro controllers “cheating”. It’s too bad it is so hard to reduce macroing for PC.
  • Another great example if a interesting macro is a mouse over macro I have in wow classic.

    If I target the boss and heal, I will heal the target of the boss (the tank), if I have my mouse over a friendly health bar on my UI I will heal that friendly target, if I have no target I will heal myself.

    If I make all my healing spells with this macro I can easily be a tank healer but also a fast raid healer. Simple macro but very helpful.
  • Macros and mods don’t belong in competitive games. Consoles consider macro controllers “cheating”. It’s too bad it is so hard to reduce macroing for PC.

    Well on consoles you would need to by a new controller while a in-game macro system would be free.
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member
    edited January 2021
    daveywavey wrote: »
    I remember PvP in ESO where I'd be hit 14 times in a single second, cos the other player was spamming macros. Cheating, plain and simple.

    Macros are an issue in ESO PvE end game raiding as well ... but it's not as widely reported since the opponents are, well, bosses. ;)

    In contrast, FFXIV literally requires macros. Due to game mechanics (especially crafting) that require a long sequence of actions to achieve a specific outcome.

    I think @Vhaeyne's comment is still the best one in the thread.

    If Intrepid gives players a proper UI and enough tools to keybind actions, Steven's goal will be fulfilled.
  • Warth wrote: »
    there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes.
    That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago

    Aye - thank the gods, for this! I want to say it was either an interview done before the monthly update videos, or in one of the very early Q&A's at the end of an early monthly update video.

    Yours truly used macros for controlling battle droids and for certain gathering stuff in Star Wars: Galaxies. In essence, it is a form of cheating. I was able to walk away for hours and leave my character logged in, to gather things like resources or sub-components.

    I don't think there will be anything that can be done about out-of-game, keyboard-and-mouse related macros, though. Yours truly has never used any of these, so I wouldn't be able to tell you, for certain. As satisfying as it can be to invent, write, and execute macros in other games, I'm grateful for the fact that AoC will not support actual, in-game macros.


  • Warth wrote: »
    there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes.
    That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago

    Aye - thank the gods, for this! I want to say it was either an interview done before the monthly update videos, or in one of the very early Q&A's at the end of an early monthly update video.

    Yours truly used macros for controlling battle droids and for certain gathering stuff in Star Wars: Galaxies. In essence, it is a form of cheating. I was able to walk away for hours and leave my character logged in, to gather things like resources or sub-components.

    I don't think there will be anything that can be done about out-of-game, keyboard-and-mouse related macros, though. Yours truly has never used any of these, so I wouldn't be able to tell you, for certain. As satisfying as it can be to invent, write, and execute macros in other games, I'm grateful for the fact that AoC will not support actual, in-game macros.



    I do believe that being able to make a script (advanced macro) so you can leave the computer and still move and do action in game should be illegal.

    However, with a in-game macro IP can limit the macros so no more than one action (GCD) can not be used. Like I'm wow classic, you can't not use "while" or "wait" commands to wait for the GCD to run out.

    When I say macro I mean very simple commands like

    /Cast [target=mouseover, exist, help][help][@targettarget,help][target=player]"spell"

    Or

    /Cancelaura Greater Blessing of Salvation
    /Startattack
    /Cast Maul

    Or

    /Pull 7

    Or

    /Equip The end of dreams
    /Equip Therazanes Touch


    Simple macros and not scripts.
  • I never realized that some games straight out allow scripts
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Use the bowl of ice cream analogy. People want simple macros for things they want to do. What is the harm? Just the tip right? The statement from the wiki that I put in the beginning of this thread says that for their anti-cheat to work, they will have to limit macros. If you have a bowl of ice cream with a speck of shit in it, even if you try to eat around it, you are still eating ice cream with shit.
    south-park-rabble-rabble-rabbl-53b58d315aa49.jpg
  • LordAdroLordAdro Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I have somewhat a different perspective, but with only 5 percent of my visual field macros go a long way to help me out.

    Without them, it will be like fighting a blind guy, hahaha.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    A simple macro system would be helpful.
    In a pug group it is easier to invite people to Discord with a macro linking the information. Or perhaps guild recruitment type stuff. It can be hassle typing that stuff out over and over and over.......
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    About 13 or 14 years ago, EQ2 implemented a macro system in to the game itself.

    You could add in up to 10 commands,and if you wanted, all 10 could be abilities. There was no ability to add in a wait timer, and all commands in the macro would initiate effectively immediately, but in the order they were listed.

    The thing is, that games combat sysem would allow you to cast one spell, and have a second spell queued. If you cast another spell while you had one queued, that new spell would take over that spot in the queue.

    This meant that if you had a macro with 10 abilities, and you did nothing other than activate that macro, you would immediately cast the first ability in the macro, and you would queue the last ability in the macro. ALl other abilities would effectively be ignored if they had a cast time at all.

    In the 10 years or so I played the game with that macro system in place, I didn't see a single exploit or cheat with it, because there really wasn't any scope to exploit or cheat with it.

    Having this system built in to the game meant that if the developers detected any macros at all not using this system, they were able to take action on those accounts. There was no scope at all for "but it's a simple macro that isn't cheating", because any macro that wasn't cheating could be made in-game, and so the rules were to make them in game.

    The kind of things this system allowed people to do were to have a /tell linked to a single target buff, so that the caster could tell the player that was getting a short duration buff. It was useful for AoE cures as well, telling the group that a cure was being cast with the same button press that actially cast it. It was useful for forming raids - I had a macro that would invite the 5 people in my group that I usually had, and then also invite the group leader of the other three groups to a raid. They all had similar macros for the people that were usually in their group as well. This meant we were able to invite everyone to a raid with a total of four people pressing one button each.

    That said, any macro system built in to the game would need to be designed to fit the specifics of the games combat system. If it is possible for a player to be hit by the same ability cast by the same player 14 times in one second, then that is a broken combat system, not a broken macro system.
  • HeruwolfHeruwolf Member
    edited January 2021
    Honestly, I use quite a few macros in WoW. Namely binding an on use trinket to another major cd. It's the same thing as pushing 2 buttons, which is quite easily doable, but saves space on an already cluttered action bar.

    The other thing I use is mouseover macros, namely for putting Damage over Time spells on multiple targets without changing targets manually. The same could be said for Heal over time to raid heal.

    Now the one macro that I use the most that I really couldn't do without is the @ cursor macro that I use for things like Death Knight "Death and Decay" , Hunter "Volley" , Mage "Flamestrike". These are ground target abilities. Due to how fast paced the combat is in WoW if you have to take the time to click the button and then also left click the mouse to confirm over the course of a 10 minute fight you are talking about a large DPS loss, as well as a lot of frustration for an ability that just doesn't go off because of just natural client to server communication. Using an [@ cursor] macro just tells the game that I don't care to confirm the position, just drop it at wherever my cursor is on the terrain.

    From what I've seen of WoW's CURRENT Macro system, I don't believe you can do anything that they didn't intend for you to do. However, when the game initially released, yes, the macro system was wildly exploitable.

    If we had the type of Macros that WoW allows, I'd have no complaints.


    However I think that FFXIV's macro system has numerous issues:
    1. it lags behind the regular abilities, there are videos of this
    2. It allows wait commands, which makes them basically be used for all crafting

    If we had macros like in FFXIV, I would have significant complaints.

    Edit: Added spaces so the @'s aren't clickable.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes.
    That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago

    Aye - thank the gods, for this! I want to say it was either an interview done before the monthly update videos, or in one of the very early Q&A's at the end of an early monthly update video.

    Yours truly used macros for controlling battle droids and for certain gathering stuff in Star Wars: Galaxies. In essence, it is a form of cheating. I was able to walk away for hours and leave my character logged in, to gather things like resources or sub-components.

    I don't think there will be anything that can be done about out-of-game, keyboard-and-mouse related macros, though. Yours truly has never used any of these, so I wouldn't be able to tell you, for certain. As satisfying as it can be to invent, write, and execute macros in other games, I'm grateful for the fact that AoC will not support actual, in-game macros.



    I do believe that being able to make a script (advanced macro) so you can leave the computer and still move and do action in game should be illegal.

    However, with a in-game macro IP can limit the macros so no more than one action (GCD) can not be used. Like I'm wow classic, you can't not use "while" or "wait" commands to wait for the GCD to run out.

    When I say macro I mean very simple commands like

    /Cast [target=mouseover, exist, help][help][@targettarget,help][target=player]"spell"

    Or

    /Cancelaura Greater Blessing of Salvation
    /Startattack
    /Cast Maul

    Or

    /Pull 7

    Or

    /Equip The end of dreams
    /Equip Therazanes Touch


    Simple macros and not scripts.

    The problem with what your suggesting is that someone who uses those macros has a slight edge over someone who doesn't. I am then forced to learn and use those macros as well. I am trying to play a character in a fantasy world... I don't want to have to worry about setting up macros and scripts.
  • vmangman wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes.
    That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago

    Aye - thank the gods, for this! I want to say it was either an interview done before the monthly update videos, or in one of the very early Q&A's at the end of an early monthly update video.

    Yours truly used macros for controlling battle droids and for certain gathering stuff in Star Wars: Galaxies. In essence, it is a form of cheating. I was able to walk away for hours and leave my character logged in, to gather things like resources or sub-components.

    I don't think there will be anything that can be done about out-of-game, keyboard-and-mouse related macros, though. Yours truly has never used any of these, so I wouldn't be able to tell you, for certain. As satisfying as it can be to invent, write, and execute macros in other games, I'm grateful for the fact that AoC will not support actual, in-game macros.



    I do believe that being able to make a script (advanced macro) so you can leave the computer and still move and do action in game should be illegal.

    However, with a in-game macro IP can limit the macros so no more than one action (GCD) can not be used. Like I'm wow classic, you can't not use "while" or "wait" commands to wait for the GCD to run out.

    When I say macro I mean very simple commands like

    /Cast [target=mouseover, exist, help][help][@targettarget,help][target=player]"spell"

    Or

    /Cancelaura Greater Blessing of Salvation
    /Startattack
    /Cast Maul

    Or

    /Pull 7

    Or

    /Equip The end of dreams
    /Equip Therazanes Touch


    Simple macros and not scripts.

    The problem with what your suggesting is that someone who uses those macros has a slight edge over someone who doesn't. I am then forced to learn and use those macros as well. I am trying to play a character in a fantasy world... I don't want to have to worry about setting up macros and scripts.

    Non of the macros I have given as an example give me an advantage over other players. They are just time saving macros that makes my life little easier. Like the equipment macro, I can press a button outside if combat to equip different gear instead of opening my back and putting it on (not in combat). The mouse over macro is personal taste, some like to press the raid frames, some like to press F# keys, and some like to use mouse over macro so I don't have to click and then heal (not an advantage).
    The start attack macro is so I don't have to right click the mob to make sure Im attacking the target.

    Macros I'm wanting and like so the kind that saves you some time and makes you press less button (mostly outside if combat). I don't want scripts that makes you do a full rotation by pressing one button.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    There isn't auto-attack to my knowledge. A macro to attack would be redundant. You should just use a skill.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes.
    That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago

    Aye - thank the gods, for this! I want to say it was either an interview done before the monthly update videos, or in one of the very early Q&A's at the end of an early monthly update video.

    Yours truly used macros for controlling battle droids and for certain gathering stuff in Star Wars: Galaxies. In essence, it is a form of cheating. I was able to walk away for hours and leave my character logged in, to gather things like resources or sub-components.

    I don't think there will be anything that can be done about out-of-game, keyboard-and-mouse related macros, though. Yours truly has never used any of these, so I wouldn't be able to tell you, for certain. As satisfying as it can be to invent, write, and execute macros in other games, I'm grateful for the fact that AoC will not support actual, in-game macros.



    I do believe that being able to make a script (advanced macro) so you can leave the computer and still move and do action in game should be illegal.

    However, with a in-game macro IP can limit the macros so no more than one action (GCD) can not be used. Like I'm wow classic, you can't not use "while" or "wait" commands to wait for the GCD to run out.

    When I say macro I mean very simple commands like

    /Cast [target=mouseover, exist, help][help][@targettarget,help][target=player]"spell"

    Or

    /Cancelaura Greater Blessing of Salvation
    /Startattack
    /Cast Maul

    Or

    /Pull 7

    Or

    /Equip The end of dreams
    /Equip Therazanes Touch


    Simple macros and not scripts.

    The problem with what your suggesting is that someone who uses those macros has a slight edge over someone who doesn't. I am then forced to learn and use those macros as well. I am trying to play a character in a fantasy world... I don't want to have to worry about setting up macros and scripts.

    Non of the macros I have given as an example give me an advantage over other players. They are just time saving macros that makes my life little easier. Like the equipment macro, I can press a button outside if combat to equip different gear instead of opening my back and putting it on (not in combat). The mouse over macro is personal taste, some like to press the raid frames, some like to press F# keys, and some like to use mouse over macro so I don't have to click and then heal (not an advantage).
    The start attack macro is so I don't have to right click the mob to make sure Im attacking the target.

    Macros I'm wanting and like so the kind that saves you some time and makes you press less button (mostly outside if combat). I don't want scripts that makes you do a full rotation by pressing one button.

    Since when is saving time in combat not an advantage? Macros like canceling auras and switching out your weapons mid combat absolutely gives you an advantage.

    I think that these macros are an advantage partially due to poor game design, but you can't say that speeding up processes for you is not an advantage... that's literally the whole advantage. And if I don't have a cancel aura macro, or focus target casting macros, or weapon switching macros then I am slower and therefore worse than someone who uses those macros.
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