akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Even the most simple macro can be used for ways that give an unfair advantage.
Like a marco to spam heal pots. Click once to get constant heal until click again to stop to provide more time focus on pvp and a higher chance of survival. Hmm
In BDO you could achieve a permanent pot for both health and mana, link it with a Fairy and the Fairy will auto use the permanent pots every 2s (At rank 5). It enabled classes to be un-killable in some situations. Macros weren't even required, just bad game design.
Even the most simple macro can be used for ways that give an unfair advantage.
Like a marco to spam heal pots. Click once to get constant heal until click again to stop to provide more time focus on pvp and a higher chance of survival. Hmm
If any game has no CD on a healing pot it's a broken game anyways. Person with the most resources wins at that points, unless your game design is designed around one-shotting players, which is also bad game design. Realistically, there will likely be a CD on the healing pots and therefore nulls your macro completely.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I have in past had macro`s setup to spam heal pots with delay to account for cool down. Worked a treat, but not exactly fair.
Its just the sad truth of it. MMO mouse and keyboard will provide macros for combat. Any competitive advantage will be used and abused. You will be at a distinct disadvantage if you don't use a macro mouse and or keyboard in PVP/PVE combat.
Its just the sad truth of it. MMO mouse and keyboard will provide macros for combat. Any competitive advantage will be used and abused. You will be at a distinct disadvantage if you don't use a macro mouse and or keyboard in PVP/PVE combat.
There has been a very long history of MMOs, where the Mouse/Keyboard macros were flagged by the MMO's anti cheating system and led to bans, which sparked the usual "i got banned for no reason" hate threads in the forums).
It comes down to one simple thing, If the macro offer functionalities, that go against the terms of service, you may get banned, whether it's utilizing Keyboard/Mouse software, a 3rd party program or a bug in the game internal system (assuming of course, that their anti-cheating systems work properly).
Unless Intrepid installs a rootkit, they wouldn't be able to differentiate between inputs through third party software and inputs through keyboard/mouses anyway.
How about special made keyboards like the razer taurus, or a mouse with side buttons? Should these also be against tos? And if so, what kind of keyboard and mouse should be allowed?
I personally don't think ashes will be a game where one need combat macros, I just feel like macro is very useful outside of combat when it comes to changing gear with /equip commands, saving curtain texts like "Enchanter LFW...." (I know there will be shops but advertisement is always good). If IP implement a in-game macro system they will have full control over the macros and can easily identify macro from their own system.
Macros =/= hardwarer with additional buttons.
Hardware is never straight out banned. Utilizing it in a way that goes against TOS on the other hand usually is.
I do agree, that pure chat macros should be allowed, but if that interferes with their automatic detection system, then i'm all for not allowing it
I was just thinking that maybe a in-game system will not interfere, but since I'm just a player and have no experience with that sort of stuff I don't know.
Yes of course, if the macro system will interfere with their anti cheat system or bot detection, then by all means do not allow macro.
I have in past had macro`s setup to spam heal pots with delay to account for cool down. Worked a treat, but not exactly fair.
If you can have a delay in you macro then I do not consider it a simple macro, and it's more like a script.
Using a Nostromo inbuilt key bindings and macro, many functions were able to be achieved. Nostromo defined them as macros, but they are more akin to a script. micro second delay, hit again!
Splitting hairs over if Script or Macro, if able to do something in game the same way that provides an unfair advantage to achieve what the game does not setout to allow, then prefer to see neither being permissible.
Think a limited macro systiem for targeting would be pretty cool. Like for healers target tank, use said ability, target last target. The in game macros in WoW can be used to partially automate game play. (sequence macros.
Think macros like page up page down and so on plus we are going to have Icons plus if we have world marker be cool if we could macro them. Just makes thing less clunky.
But Ashes of Creation could just go with a very very very very long key binding list basically listing every command in the game with a lot of pages like at least ten.
I don't want macros or scripting in the game for any reason EXCEPT making the game more inclusive for those with a disability.
If someone with a genuine disability contacts Intrepid, explains their difficulties and then Intrepid is prepared to
1) code some assisting macros and
2) monitor that player to ensure that no unfair advantage is given,
then I would be completely cool with that and I would never need to know about it. I would be happy to leave it with Steven and his conscience.
I saw a similar discussion on the boards of some other upcoming MMO's in the last few months. I personally believe Macro's like in World of Warcraft is just bad, it would ruin Ashes of Creation. Also the moment you allow them and it gets out of control it is very difficult to pull the plug on them without damaging your community, player base, etc. People very easily accustomed to something.
I hope we have zero macros in this game, except for your /sit or /dance.
For me it's mostly wow classic where macros is mostly (to me, and how I have seen them used) off-gcd ability into one GCD ability, out of combat macros like gear changing macro, and targeting macros (where the "focus" commands is questionable).
No delays or wait commands to cast multiple spells, and from my experience no huge game changing commands.
I don't like the argument "I don't want them", please give me some examples (non-scribt like macro, no wait or delays).
Macros in WoW are also used to run long scripts. The scripts I've seen change the lighting effects, shadow effects, toner effects, graphics effects etc...I know its not relate to gameplay but the point was related to the use of scripts through in-game WoW macros.
Macros in WoW are also used to run long scripts. The scripts I've seen change the lighting effects, shadow effects, toner effects, graphics effects etc...I know its not relate to gameplay but the point was related to the use of scripts through in-game WoW macros.
I have never heard of this? Sounds weird, can you link it give an example.
And if it's real, then it should not be a thing xD
"Macros cannot make smart decisions for you. They can’t cast spells based on cooldown, or check if a buff is active, or magically fit all your abilities onto one button.
Macros cannot be any longer than 255 characters, unless you use an addon to circumvent this limit.
Macros cannot circumvent the global cooldown to use more than one item or ability at a time. There are some exceptions, but this is the general rule.
Macros cannot simulate additional keypresses. One keypress = one action.
Macros cannot include a delay for most commands. Certain commands (e.g. chat) can be delayed with an addon."
And
"
REMOVED: Focus (UnitID)
In Classic, Focus (and related unitIDs, like focustarget) is not recognized as a valid target for spells.
This means that you will need to target the unit you want to cast at. You an use other unitIDs like targettarget, pettarget, or party1target, but this is less reliable as the intermediate unitID can swap to a different target.
Mouseover is generally a better option as it is 100% within your control, but it does take more coordination and mouse accuracy than Focus macros from BfA.
REMOVED: Reticle Targeting (Conditionals)
In Classic, reticle (ground targeted) spells require two keypresses to activate. The first press will bring up the targeting reticle, and the second press will cast the spell.
This is a change from BfA, where you can use [@cursor] to immediately drop the spell on your mouse, or [@player] to immediately drop the spell on yourself.
There is no effective workaround for this issue, though it may be helpful to bind these types of spells to additional mouse buttons (Mouse3 (wheel click), Mouse4 (forward), Mouse5 (back), or other buttons as available depending on your mouse), as that doesn’t require the use of both hands to cast a single spell.
"
I understand why you'd want to optimize your skill usage like this, probably why I hate tab-target MMO's to begin with, but doesn't it kill your enjoyment? You turn learning to cast skills in succession into, "I googled the best macro, now I'm competitively viable.". How boring.
To be blunt, these are from WoW Classic, I do not know much about WoW Retail though.
yeah I know about the ffxDeath 1 where it removes the death "glow" on your screen. This is something I don't really like since it changes the gamefiles directly. As you say, they are mostly "cosmetics" and don't effect people around you in any direct way. But it's a good point on scripts and I don't really likes this.
I understand why you'd want to optimize your skill usage like this, probably why I hate tab-target MMO's to begin with, but doesn't it kill your enjoyment? You turn learning to cast skills in succession into, "I googled the best macro, now I'm competitively viable.". How boring.
actually I have not copied any macros from google, except for /cancleform in to /cast cat form.
The targeting macro was created by a guild mate and the non-gcd into gcd was made by me.
As you also said, this is mostly a tab-targeting thing and it may not be needed in the hybrid system that ashes will use.
I understand why you'd want to optimize your skill usage like this, probably why I hate tab-target MMO's to begin with, but doesn't it kill your enjoyment? You turn learning to cast skills in succession into, "I googled the best macro, now I'm competitively viable.". How boring.
usually the macros are so simple that you don't need to find the "best", because after playing the game and learning your class you will be able to make the best macro that suits you.
For me it's mostly wow classic where macros is mostly (to me, and how I have seen them used) off-gcd ability into one GCD ability, out of combat macros like gear changing macro, and targeting macros (where the "focus" commands is questionable).
No delays or wait commands to cast multiple spells, and from my experience no huge game changing commands.
I don't like the argument "I don't want them", please give me some examples (non-scribt like macro, no wait or delays).
in SWG Macro's made all the difference, without them, you were pretty much useless. These Macro's affected your performance on every level from (healing, combat (Damage), buffing) if I remember correctly you could even have macro's that included abilities of your combat pet. (been a very long time)
WoW and Macro's, as you mentioned you used them in classic WoW for off-gcd ability into one GCD ability, out of combat macros like gear changing macro, and targeting macros (where the "focus" commands are questionable).
- The swap gear or even swap build macro in games can easily be implemented within the Hero/Character window/functionality (Guild wars 2 did this)
- targeting macro's and healer markers are ridiculous this macro is an example of what I mean with: if you allow them into your game and later realize that it's F'ed up you cannot ban/remove macro's as you would upset your community which could be a financial nightmare. People are very easily triggered these days xD
by not allowing macro's, add-ons, etc. they are creating an even playing field for everyone. The real difference will come from your build, gear, and skill.
Back in Vanilla WoW you almost had to make macro's. There were just too many skills not to. But this game looks to be about similar to most recent MMO's and action game, with just 1 bar of combat skills. So I would say macro's are unnecessary. I would like to see a bar or something for quick slot inventory items. Things you use often. Not related to macros however.
Yeah, I'm hopeful the devs will give us extra hotbars through in-game options but not for active abilities. The Dev team are very veteran and have come from games where extra hotbars were used.
To be blunt, these are from WoW Classic, I do not know much about WoW Retail though.
LMAO. None of these are macros. These are console commands. You can do all of this in the chat box. If Blizzard (or Intrepid for that matter) didn't want these commands to be usable, they'd remove them from the acceptable arguments of the /console command. Yes, these make it faster, but you're not gonna use these in combat.
I understand why you'd want to optimize your skill usage like this, probably why I hate tab-target MMO's to begin with, but doesn't it kill your enjoyment? You turn learning to cast skills in succession into, "I googled the best macro, now I'm competitively viable.". How boring.
If this is all you think it requires to be competitively viable, oh my. In this same line of thought you might as well ask Intrepid to delete every guide online because that can teach you how to play your character. There is not a single macro in WoW that makes you competitively viable without first knowing why you're using the macro in the first place.
So far in this entire thread, I haven't seen a single person who has given me any reason to think that macros should not be allowed. I also don't believe that "Intrepid won't be able to tell who's cheating" is a viable argument, because frankly, that's just bad programming and development if that's true.
There was an argument about shadowstep kicking a healer in Arena PVP. What's the other option? Select the healer, press shadowstep, press kick? Ok, sure. but your talking 3 actions by the player, 4 if you consider recognizing the cast needs to be kicked in the first place. In that time period, the cast has gone off, you've already lost. It's a fast GCD game, the continued allowance of that fast GCD and constantly making the game faster is a design decision. How else would interrupts work? Let's say we have action combat interrupts, how would they work? Would they work any different than a mouseover macro? I think not. You aim at the target and push the button, same thing.
Let's imagine the same type of ability combination in an Action Combat game. You shadowstep behind your targeted enemy or ally. So you hover your crosshair over the enemy healer who is casting a heal, shadowstep and then immediately kick. The only difference is the Line of Sight requirement, which can easily be forced into an ability like Shadowstep to begin with anyways.
Now, I can agree that things like @ Focus, @ targetoftarget, and @ UnitID shouldn't be allowed. But @ Mouseover, at least for heals, need to be a thing. This game is potentially a Hybrid of Tab Target and Action combat. I'd love to see a good example of how pure action combat healing works, because I can't think of one that didn't ultimately end up in an "everybody stack up" meta. That, imo, would be terrible for this game. Having 500 people stacking next to each other just so they don't miss the AoE heals. I believe this game is going to be primarily tab target based healing with some powerful AOE targeted heals. This would make healers feel significantly slower than every other class with having to select every target that they want to heal as a single target. Mouse-over macros solve that.
Now, what I would REALLY like to see is just have this functionality built into healing. I would also like to see auto-confirmation for ground targeted abilities.
Though, I also believe that this entire response is just going to fall on deaf ears of people who just outright don't like macros despite not knowing a thing about them.
I explained they weren't for combat. The macros run them like scripts. You can enter them one by one but when combined into a macro they become a script. My point was to state WoW allows scripts and the scripts were shown.
Comments
Like a marco to spam heal pots. Click once to get constant heal until click again to stop to provide more time focus on pvp and a higher chance of survival. Hmm
If any game has no CD on a healing pot it's a broken game anyways. Person with the most resources wins at that points, unless your game design is designed around one-shotting players, which is also bad game design. Realistically, there will likely be a CD on the healing pots and therefore nulls your macro completely.
Yes of course, if the macro system will interfere with their anti cheat system or bot detection, then by all means do not allow macro.
If you can have a delay in you macro then I do not consider it a simple macro, and it's more like a script.
Using a Nostromo inbuilt key bindings and macro, many functions were able to be achieved. Nostromo defined them as macros, but they are more akin to a script. micro second delay, hit again!
Splitting hairs over if Script or Macro, if able to do something in game the same way that provides an unfair advantage to achieve what the game does not setout to allow, then prefer to see neither being permissible.
I
Think macros like page up page down and so on plus we are going to have Icons plus if we have world marker be cool if we could macro them. Just makes thing less clunky.
But Ashes of Creation could just go with a very very very very long key binding list basically listing every command in the game with a lot of pages like at least ten.
If someone with a genuine disability contacts Intrepid, explains their difficulties and then Intrepid is prepared to
1) code some assisting macros and
2) monitor that player to ensure that no unfair advantage is given,
then I would be completely cool with that and I would never need to know about it. I would be happy to leave it with Steven and his conscience.
I hope we have zero macros in this game, except for your /sit or /dance.
For me it's mostly wow classic where macros is mostly (to me, and how I have seen them used) off-gcd ability into one GCD ability, out of combat macros like gear changing macro, and targeting macros (where the "focus" commands is questionable).
No delays or wait commands to cast multiple spells, and from my experience no huge game changing commands.
I don't like the argument "I don't want them", please give me some examples (non-scribt like macro, no wait or delays).
I have never heard of this? Sounds weird, can you link it give an example.
And if it's real, then it should not be a thing xD
/console violencelevel5
/console overridefarclip 1
/console horizonfarclip 6226
/console groundeffectdensity 256
/console smallcull 0
/console skycloudlod 3
/console characterAmbient 1.0
/console extshadowquality 4
/console environmentDetail 2
/console farclip 2500
/console groundEffectDist 2500
/console groundEffectFade 2500
/console overridefarclip 1
/console horizonfarclip 6226
/console horizonStart 24000
/console farclip 24000
/console terrainLodDist 1500 /console wmoLodDist 1500
/console entityLodDist 100
/console groundeffectdensity 256
/console groundEffectDist 500
/console groundEffectFade 600
/console doodadLodDist 2000
/console shadowMode 3
/console shadowTextureSize 2048
/console smallcull 0
/console skycloudlod 3
/console extshadowquality 5
/console particleDensity 100
/console particleMTDensity 100
/console showfootprints 1
/console showfootprintparticles 1
/console environmentDetail 150
/console terrainMipLevel 0
/console worldBaseMip 0
/console WeatherDensity 3
/console detailDoodadAlpha 100
/console characterAmbient 1
/console ffxGlow 1
/console ffxDeath 1
/console reflectionMode 3
/console rippleDetail 3
/console sunshafts 2
/console spellEffectLevel 35
/console componentTextureLevel 0
/console componentSpecular 1
/console compenentEmissive 1
/console lodObjectMinSize 1000
/console lodObjectCullSize 100
/console lodObjectCullDist 200
/console lodObjectFadeScale 300
/console SSAODistance 750
To be blunt, these are from WoW Classic, I do not know much about WoW Retail though.
"Macros cannot make smart decisions for you. They can’t cast spells based on cooldown, or check if a buff is active, or magically fit all your abilities onto one button.
Macros cannot be any longer than 255 characters, unless you use an addon to circumvent this limit.
Macros cannot circumvent the global cooldown to use more than one item or ability at a time. There are some exceptions, but this is the general rule.
Macros cannot simulate additional keypresses. One keypress = one action.
Macros cannot include a delay for most commands. Certain commands (e.g. chat) can be delayed with an addon."
And
"
REMOVED: Focus (UnitID)
In Classic, Focus (and related unitIDs, like focustarget) is not recognized as a valid target for spells.
This means that you will need to target the unit you want to cast at. You an use other unitIDs like targettarget, pettarget, or party1target, but this is less reliable as the intermediate unitID can swap to a different target.
Mouseover is generally a better option as it is 100% within your control, but it does take more coordination and mouse accuracy than Focus macros from BfA.
REMOVED: Reticle Targeting (Conditionals)
In Classic, reticle (ground targeted) spells require two keypresses to activate. The first press will bring up the targeting reticle, and the second press will cast the spell.
This is a change from BfA, where you can use [@cursor] to immediately drop the spell on your mouse, or [@player] to immediately drop the spell on yourself.
There is no effective workaround for this issue, though it may be helpful to bind these types of spells to additional mouse buttons (Mouse3 (wheel click), Mouse4 (forward), Mouse5 (back), or other buttons as available depending on your mouse), as that doesn’t require the use of both hands to cast a single spell.
"
from: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/macros-essential-information/21139
yeah I know about the ffxDeath 1 where it removes the death "glow" on your screen. This is something I don't really like since it changes the gamefiles directly. As you say, they are mostly "cosmetics" and don't effect people around you in any direct way. But it's a good point on scripts and I don't really likes this.
actually I have not copied any macros from google, except for /cancleform in to /cast cat form.
The targeting macro was created by a guild mate and the non-gcd into gcd was made by me.
As you also said, this is mostly a tab-targeting thing and it may not be needed in the hybrid system that ashes will use.
usually the macros are so simple that you don't need to find the "best", because after playing the game and learning your class you will be able to make the best macro that suits you.
in SWG Macro's made all the difference, without them, you were pretty much useless. These Macro's affected your performance on every level from (healing, combat (Damage), buffing) if I remember correctly you could even have macro's that included abilities of your combat pet. (been a very long time)
WoW and Macro's, as you mentioned you used them in classic WoW for off-gcd ability into one GCD ability, out of combat macros like gear changing macro, and targeting macros (where the "focus" commands are questionable).
- The swap gear or even swap build macro in games can easily be implemented within the Hero/Character window/functionality (Guild wars 2 did this)
- targeting macro's and healer markers are ridiculous this macro is an example of what I mean with: if you allow them into your game and later realize that it's F'ed up you cannot ban/remove macro's as you would upset your community which could be a financial nightmare. People are very easily triggered these days xD
by not allowing macro's, add-ons, etc. they are creating an even playing field for everyone. The real difference will come from your build, gear, and skill.
LMAO. None of these are macros. These are console commands. You can do all of this in the chat box. If Blizzard (or Intrepid for that matter) didn't want these commands to be usable, they'd remove them from the acceptable arguments of the /console command. Yes, these make it faster, but you're not gonna use these in combat.
If this is all you think it requires to be competitively viable, oh my. In this same line of thought you might as well ask Intrepid to delete every guide online because that can teach you how to play your character. There is not a single macro in WoW that makes you competitively viable without first knowing why you're using the macro in the first place.
So far in this entire thread, I haven't seen a single person who has given me any reason to think that macros should not be allowed. I also don't believe that "Intrepid won't be able to tell who's cheating" is a viable argument, because frankly, that's just bad programming and development if that's true.
There was an argument about shadowstep kicking a healer in Arena PVP. What's the other option? Select the healer, press shadowstep, press kick? Ok, sure. but your talking 3 actions by the player, 4 if you consider recognizing the cast needs to be kicked in the first place. In that time period, the cast has gone off, you've already lost. It's a fast GCD game, the continued allowance of that fast GCD and constantly making the game faster is a design decision. How else would interrupts work? Let's say we have action combat interrupts, how would they work? Would they work any different than a mouseover macro? I think not. You aim at the target and push the button, same thing.
Let's imagine the same type of ability combination in an Action Combat game. You shadowstep behind your targeted enemy or ally. So you hover your crosshair over the enemy healer who is casting a heal, shadowstep and then immediately kick. The only difference is the Line of Sight requirement, which can easily be forced into an ability like Shadowstep to begin with anyways.
Now, I can agree that things like @ Focus, @ targetoftarget, and @ UnitID shouldn't be allowed. But @ Mouseover, at least for heals, need to be a thing. This game is potentially a Hybrid of Tab Target and Action combat. I'd love to see a good example of how pure action combat healing works, because I can't think of one that didn't ultimately end up in an "everybody stack up" meta. That, imo, would be terrible for this game. Having 500 people stacking next to each other just so they don't miss the AoE heals. I believe this game is going to be primarily tab target based healing with some powerful AOE targeted heals. This would make healers feel significantly slower than every other class with having to select every target that they want to heal as a single target. Mouse-over macros solve that.
Now, what I would REALLY like to see is just have this functionality built into healing. I would also like to see auto-confirmation for ground targeted abilities.
Though, I also believe that this entire response is just going to fall on deaf ears of people who just outright don't like macros despite not knowing a thing about them.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Let's eat ice cream and prevent @Vhaeyne prediction