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Macros in Ashes?

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    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    This thread is beautiful. The true second coming of the DPS meter thread.

    You have a link to that thread??? I'm bored... XD
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    If the game intends to have any sort of tab target combat, I don't believe personally there is a better option to pull from than WoW. Even FFXIV is worse, imo. I'm well aware that you can't just take a tab target combat system and an action combat system and smoosh them together and call it good.
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    VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Heruwolf wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    This thread is beautiful. The true second coming of the DPS meter thread.

    You have a link to that thread??? I'm bored... XD

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/45612/dps-meter-megathread/p1

    There it is. The 75 page opera.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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    FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited February 2021
    Well, and I'm sure the folks who really want it can get a macro keyboard.
    If macros are banned and enforced, using a gaming keyboard or mouse or other program to create macros will get your account banned.

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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Heruwolf wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    This thread is beautiful. The true second coming of the DPS meter thread.

    You have a link to that thread??? I'm bored... XD

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/45612/dps-meter-megathread/p1

    There it is. The 75 page opera.

    I am amazed no-one has posted in that thread since October. The silence feels rather oppressive lol.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
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    VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Neurath wrote: »
    I am amazed no-one has posted in that thread since October. The silence feels rather oppressive lol.

    What is dead may never die
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    If macros are banned and enforced, using a gaming keyboard or mouse or other program to create macros will get your account banned.

    I don't mind bans due to macros, but, if I get banned for simply having the software and not using the macros I will have an issue with the outcome. I don't want to replace my hardware simply to play a subscription game. I don't mind upgrading my pc to play but I'm not downgrading my gear to play.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
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    Neurath wrote: »
    If macros are banned and enforced, using a gaming keyboard or mouse or other program to create macros will get your account banned.

    I don't mind bans due to macros, but, if I get banned for simply having the software and not using the macros I will have an issue with the outcome. I don't want to replace my hardware simply to play a subscription game. I don't mind upgrading my pc to play but I'm not downgrading my gear to play.

    This won't happen.
    May I add that if a game allows exploit via mouse or keyboard software (someone mentioned X abilities in one second via macro) than IMO the problem lies in the combat design and not with the software macro. Since we know animation canceling will not be a combat mechanic in AoC, this alone limits the possibilities.
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    halbarz wrote: »
    I think we can all agree that all this WoW talk is making us sick, nobody (I hope) wants Ashes to be another WoW.

    Let's eat ice cream and prevent @Vhaeyne prediction :open_mouth:

    No one said that ashes should be the next wow.

    I only gave that example since WoW had a decent macro system that worked pretty well in that game. Now, it may or may not work in ashes, buy I just wanted to have a discussion about it and see what other people thought.
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    McMackMuckMcMackMuck Member
    edited February 2021
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    @McMackMuck @halbarz what is your previous experience with macros in games?

    For me it's mostly wow classic where macros is mostly (to me, and how I have seen them used) off-gcd ability into one GCD ability, out of combat macros like gear changing macro, and targeting macros (where the "focus" commands is questionable).
    No delays or wait commands to cast multiple spells, and from my experience no huge game changing commands.

    I don't like the argument "I don't want them", please give me some examples (non-scribt like macro, no wait or delays).

    I don't feel the need to go into this in depth.
    The developers present a game to the community.
    The interface is the keyboard and mouse.
    We are all equally limited by our ability to use the same interface [Disabled caveats mentioned previously].
    Interfering with the operation of the UI unbalances this fairness.

    Macros (outside the functionality that the game already provides) only exist as a method of making something easier for the player. It doesn't matter how innocuous that little macro advantage seems, it is still an advantage.
    The extent of that unfair advantage is then no longer controlled by the devs, but by third party macro writing abilities, those who are more inclined towards real world programming skills or who know people that will write macros for them. There is then an escalation of macro writing which leaves a percentage of the community dis-enfranchised. Over time this leaves only the highly proficient macro users to compete at the highest level and everyone else resenting them as cheats or "only winning because of their macros". Players quit. Well done, macros have just killed the game!

    It is better to nip this macro use and escalation in the bud than to wait until the game dies to realize that macros are a problem. IMO.

    Now, I think halbarz was offering free virtual ice cream and it would be rude to not take him up on the offer...
    Forum_Signature.png
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    McMackMuck wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    @McMackMuck @halbarz what is your previous experience with macros in games?

    For me it's mostly wow classic where macros is mostly (to me, and how I have seen them used) off-gcd ability into one GCD ability, out of combat macros like gear changing macro, and targeting macros (where the "focus" commands is questionable).
    No delays or wait commands to cast multiple spells, and from my experience no huge game changing commands.

    I don't like the argument "I don't want them", please give me some examples (non-scribt like macro, no wait or delays).

    I don't feel the need to go into this in depth.
    The developers present a game to the community.
    The interface is the keyboard and mouse.
    We are all equally limited by our ability to use the same interface [Disabled caveats mentioned previously].
    Interfering with the operation of the UI unbalances this fairness.

    Macros (outside the functionality that the game already provides) only exist as a method of making something easier for the player. It doesn't matter how innocuous that little macro advantage seems, it is still an advantage.
    The extent of that unfair advantage is then no longer controlled by the devs, but by third party macro writing abilities, those who are more inclined towards real world programming skills or who know people that will write macros for them. There is then an escalation of macro writing which leaves a percentage of the community dis-enfranchised. Over time this leaves only the highly proficient macro users to compete at the highest level and everyone else resenting them as cheats or "only winning because of their macros". Players quit. Well done, macros have just killed the game!

    It is better to nip this macro use and escalation in the bud than to wait until the game dies to realize that macros are a problem. IMO.

    Yes third party macros and scripts should not be a thing, but as I have said before. I'm talking about a in-game system where the developers have full control over what can be done. And you will not need "real world programing skills" to write an macro. I personally know many people that have never touched programming ever, but still have a few macros because they know their class and know what they want.

    And I ask to again, what are your previous experience with macros?
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    VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    halbarz wrote: »
    I think we can all agree that all this WoW talk is making us sick, nobody (I hope) wants Ashes to be another WoW.

    Let's eat ice cream and prevent @Vhaeyne prediction :open_mouth:

    No one said that ashes should be the next wow.

    I only gave that example since WoW had a decent macro system that worked pretty well in that game. Now, it may or may not work in ashes, buy I just wanted to have a discussion about it and see what other people thought.

    My guy, I understand that you didn't understand at first just how much of an advantage macros were in WoW. But then I explained to you that macros are incredibly powerful in WoW and absolutely give and advantage to those who use them well. Yet you are still here blabbering about how WoW had a decent macro system. Stop it. Just because you didn't know how to use macros to their full potential in WoW it doesn't mean that they weren't incredibly powerful. Stop claiming that macros were fine in WoW. If AoC follows the same macro system as WoW (their full potential and not the joke version that you used), macros will be essential for players who want to be competitive and that would be horrible.
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    VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    vmangman wrote: »
    My guy, I understand that you didn't understand at first just how much of an advantage macros were in WoW. But then I explained to you that macros are incredibly powerful in WoW and absolutely give and advantage to those who use them well. Yet you are still here blabbering about how WoW had a decent macro system. Stop it. Just because you didn't know how to use macros to their full potential in WoW it doesn't mean that they weren't incredibly powerful. Stop claiming that macros were fine in WoW. If AoC follows the same macro system as WoW (their full potential and not the joke version that you used), macros will be essential for players who want to be competitive and that would be horrible.

    Big true,

    My guess would be that having macros in-game might interfere with their ability to detect illegal use of third-party macros.

    Steven has talked about games being ruined by botters/gold farmers. He has also talked about using "Advanced Tools"* or some other verbiage to detect bots. One example he gave was a character getting a large amount of money all of the sudden would be flagged for review. Frequent robotic precision of actions might be a detection method worth flagging.

    All other arguments like yours about having an even playing field are also valid reasons why macros are not a thing in AOC.

    The reason why this thread reminds me of the DPS meter thread so much is that we got a loud and clear "NO."
    from intrepid, and people still want to make cases for macros endlessly. Also on both topics I can live with or without the feature.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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    rikardp98 wrote: »
    halbarz wrote: »
    I think we can all agree that all this WoW talk is making us sick, nobody (I hope) wants Ashes to be another WoW.

    Let's eat ice cream and prevent @Vhaeyne prediction :open_mouth:

    No one said that ashes should be the next wow.

    I only gave that example since WoW had a decent macro system that worked pretty well in that game. Now, it may or may not work in ashes, buy I just wanted to have a discussion about it and see what other people thought.

    Sorry I think you understood me wrong hihi, didn't mean that you said it should be the next WoW. Was more a general statement. It is good to have these discussions especially in a respectful way like this thread.
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    vmangman wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    halbarz wrote: »
    I think we can all agree that all this WoW talk is making us sick, nobody (I hope) wants Ashes to be another WoW.

    Let's eat ice cream and prevent @Vhaeyne prediction :open_mouth:

    No one said that ashes should be the next wow.

    I only gave that example since WoW had a decent macro system that worked pretty well in that game. Now, it may or may not work in ashes, buy I just wanted to have a discussion about it and see what other people thought.

    My guy, I understand that you didn't understand at first just how much of an advantage macros were in WoW. But then I explained to you that macros are incredibly powerful in WoW and absolutely give and advantage to those who use them well. Yet you are still here blabbering about how WoW had a decent macro system. Stop it. Just because you didn't know how to use macros to their full potential in WoW it doesn't mean that they weren't incredibly powerful. Stop claiming that macros were fine in WoW. If AoC follows the same macro system as WoW (their full potential and not the joke version that you used), macros will be essential for players who want to be competitive and that would be horrible.

    Yes, you gave me a clear explanation why the target=focus macro in pvp is a clear advantage in pvp, and j totally agree with that. The only reason I haven't heard if it before is that I use the macro system in classic, and that system do not recognize focus as a valid target.

    So why is one button = one combat action a bad macro system?

    Looking for "essential" macro on wowhead for the best dps class in classic, the warrior. Then you find a start attack macro (equal to right click), cancelaura macro to remove Blessing of Protection (incase a paladin uses his big def 5min cd in you), a mouse over macro for charge (equal to left click, but not as reliable), and weapon swap to shield incase you take agro (can just as well have the shield on your bar and click it).

    Now, the hunter have a few macros, but that's because the classic version of the hunter is very very weird and clunky. However, I still know hunters that don't use macros and still parse 90+.
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    rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited February 2021
    halbarz wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    halbarz wrote: »
    I think we can all agree that all this WoW talk is making us sick, nobody (I hope) wants Ashes to be another WoW.

    Let's eat ice cream and prevent @Vhaeyne prediction :open_mouth:

    No one said that ashes should be the next wow.

    I only gave that example since WoW had a decent macro system that worked pretty well in that game. Now, it may or may not work in ashes, buy I just wanted to have a discussion about it and see what other people thought.

    Sorry I think you understood me wrong hihi, didn't mean that you said it should be the next WoW. Was more a general statement. It is good to have these discussions especially in a respectful way like this thread.

    Oh okay, sorry.

    I know intrepid will make the game as they want it, and I know they will make an awesome game that I will play for a long time. I just wanted to have a little discussion around macros since I have only used macros in classic wow and some in retail, and wanted to know how other games have handled macros and what players thought of it.

    What people don't understand is that I don't really care if ashes won't allow it or not, I care about your experience with macros and how you feel about them. (You as in the general forum user)

    And your general statement is very true xD
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    LeiloniLeiloni Member
    edited February 2021
    consultant wrote: »
    Think a limited macro systiem for targeting would be pretty cool. Like for healers target tank, use said ability, target last target. The in game macros in WoW can be used to partially automate game play. (sequence macros.

    That's totally unnecessary and I would file that under healer skill. Ability to navigate the UI and party/raid window along with effective keybinding in a quick, accurate, and efficient manner is key to a successful healer. Now it's also not necessarily difficult, but there's no need to macro it and it could give the person macroing an unfair advantage over those who don't (and make things somewhat automated). Gear swaps, chat spam for crafting/guilds, sure those have valid reasons to want macros. But clicking a target, using your keybind, and going back to your last target? Come on.

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    rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited February 2021
    Leiloni wrote: »
    consultant wrote: »
    Think a limited macro systiem for targeting would be pretty cool. Like for healers target tank, use said ability, target last target. The in game macros in WoW can be used to partially automate game play. (sequence macros.

    That's totally unnecessary and I would file that under healer skill. Ability to navigate the UI and party/raid window along with effective keybinding in a quick, accurate, and efficient manner is key to a successful healer. Now it's also not necessarily difficult, but there's no need to macro it and it could give the person macroing an unfair advantage over those who don't (and make things somewhat automated). Gear swaps, chat spam for crafting/guilds, sure those have valid reasons to want macros. But clicking a target, using your keybind, and going back to your last target? Come on.

    I use the mouseover macro and if I don't mouseover anyone I heal the targets target (the tank). I started using this macro a few months back, and i quite like it. I use it so I can always target the boss and follow it's health, cast bar and debuffs. I don't use it because I find it quicker or easier, and I find in quite unreliable and start clicking my target sometimes.

    I also can not find a good reason to use the "target to last target" useful. Maybe i understand the "targets last target" wrong xD
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    RhuricRhuric Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I don't want macros in this game but what I keep hearing is 'unfair advantage'.

    I just want to state, it's not unfair. The playing field is level, the tools are there for everyone and anyone to use. If someone isn't utilizing them that doesn't mean the playing field is unbalanced it means the players themselves are not using everything at their disposal.

    We all learn to play whatever game we're going to play, to a different degree of aptitude. If macros are a part of it then learning how to make macros for that game are part of its learning curve. Not everyone will be good at it, there will always be someone better. That doesn't make it an unfair advantage. Again, everyone has access to the same tools.
    "Almost dead yesterday, maybe dead tomorrow, but alive, GLORIOUSLY alive, today."
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    LeiloniLeiloni Member
    edited February 2021
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Leiloni wrote: »
    consultant wrote: »
    Think a limited macro systiem for targeting would be pretty cool. Like for healers target tank, use said ability, target last target. The in game macros in WoW can be used to partially automate game play. (sequence macros.

    That's totally unnecessary and I would file that under healer skill. Ability to navigate the UI and party/raid window along with effective keybinding in a quick, accurate, and efficient manner is key to a successful healer. Now it's also not necessarily difficult, but there's no need to macro it and it could give the person macroing an unfair advantage over those who don't (and make things somewhat automated). Gear swaps, chat spam for crafting/guilds, sure those have valid reasons to want macros. But clicking a target, using your keybind, and going back to your last target? Come on.

    I use the mouseover macro and if I don't mouseover anyone I heal the targets target (the tank). I started using this macro a few months back, and i quite like it. I use it so I can always target the boss and follow it's health, cast bar and debuffs. I don't use it because I find it quicker or easier, and I find in quite unreliable and start clicking my target sometimes.


    That's what a Focus target is for. Focus target the boss and you will be able to see it's health, what it's casting, who it's targeting, and easily re-target it when necessary. It creates a separate/secondary, permanent target frame for whoever your focus target is, that exists separately from your current target (i.e. whatever player/mob you manually target). No need to create macros for something that's a basic UI element present in most modern MMO's.

    Or also, the Target's Target feature. In situations where you're not in a boss fight but fighting different mobs/players and there's frequent target switching, a target's target shows you the health/cast bars of your tank (or whoever's) current target. Again, gives you the same necessary information in a basic UI setting.

    Some of the macros I have read in this thread are things that can be avoided with proper UI settings found in most modern MMO's.
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    I also can not find a good reason to use the "target to last target" useful. Maybe i understand the "targets last target" wrong xD

    Honestly me neither...
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    rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited February 2021
    Leiloni wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Leiloni wrote: »
    consultant wrote: »
    Think a limited macro systiem for targeting would be pretty cool. Like for healers target tank, use said ability, target last target. The in game macros in WoW can be used to partially automate game play. (sequence macros.

    That's totally unnecessary and I would file that under healer skill. Ability to navigate the UI and party/raid window along with effective keybinding in a quick, accurate, and efficient manner is key to a successful healer. Now it's also not necessarily difficult, but there's no need to macro it and it could give the person macroing an unfair advantage over those who don't (and make things somewhat automated). Gear swaps, chat spam for crafting/guilds, sure those have valid reasons to want macros. But clicking a target, using your keybind, and going back to your last target? Come on.

    I use the mouseover macro and if I don't mouseover anyone I heal the targets target (the tank). I started using this macro a few months back, and i quite like it. I use it so I can always target the boss and follow it's health, cast bar and debuffs. I don't use it because I find it quicker or easier, and I find in quite unreliable and start clicking my target sometimes.

    I also can not find a good reason to use the "target to last target" useful. Maybe i understand the "targets last target" wrong xD

    That's what a Focus target is for. Focus target the boss and you will be able to see it's health, what it's casting, who it's targeting, and easily re-target it when necessary. It creates a separate/secondary, permanent target frame for whoever your focus target is, that exists separately from your current target (i.e. whatever player/mob you manually target). No need to create macros for something that's a basic UI element present in most modern MMO's.

    That's true, but in WoW classic I'm not 100% sure Focus target frame exist. Some add-ons probably have this.

    Now I'm quit curtain Ashes will have this (boss frame), so you are correct that, my use of the mouseover macro won't be necessary. I personally like the physical feedback when clicking the target I want to heal, so I'm 100% sure that's the player I will heal. So no complaints from me there.
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    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Leiloni wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Leiloni wrote: »
    consultant wrote: »
    Think a limited macro systiem for targeting would be pretty cool. Like for healers target tank, use said ability, target last target. The in game macros in WoW can be used to partially automate game play. (sequence macros.

    That's totally unnecessary and I would file that under healer skill. Ability to navigate the UI and party/raid window along with effective keybinding in a quick, accurate, and efficient manner is key to a successful healer. Now it's also not necessarily difficult, but there's no need to macro it and it could give the person macroing an unfair advantage over those who don't (and make things somewhat automated). Gear swaps, chat spam for crafting/guilds, sure those have valid reasons to want macros. But clicking a target, using your keybind, and going back to your last target? Come on.

    I use the mouseover macro and if I don't mouseover anyone I heal the targets target (the tank). I started using this macro a few months back, and i quite like it. I use it so I can always target the boss and follow it's health, cast bar and debuffs. I don't use it because I find it quicker or easier, and I find in quite unreliable and start clicking my target sometimes.

    I also can not find a good reason to use the "target to last target" useful. Maybe i understand the "targets last target" wrong xD

    That's what a Focus target is for. Focus target the boss and you will be able to see it's health, what it's casting, who it's targeting, and easily re-target it when necessary. It creates a separate/secondary, permanent target frame for whoever your focus target is, that exists separately from your current target (i.e. whatever player/mob you manually target). No need to create macros for something that's a basic UI element present in most modern MMO's.

    That's true, but in WoW classic I'm not 100% sure Focus target frame exist. Some add-ons probably have this.

    Now I'm quit curtain Ashes will have this (boss frame), so you are correct that, my use of the mouseover macro won't be necessary. I personally like the physical feedback when clicking the target I want to heal, so I'm 100% sure that's the player I will heal. So no complaints from me there.

    Yea that was the problem is that Classic didn't have a focus target IIRC, but that's also a game made like 15 years ago.
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    Leiloni wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Leiloni wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Leiloni wrote: »
    consultant wrote: »
    Think a limited macro systiem for targeting would be pretty cool. Like for healers target tank, use said ability, target last target. The in game macros in WoW can be used to partially automate game play. (sequence macros.

    That's totally unnecessary and I would file that under healer skill. Ability to navigate the UI and party/raid window along with effective keybinding in a quick, accurate, and efficient manner is key to a successful healer. Now it's also not necessarily difficult, but there's no need to macro it and it could give the person macroing an unfair advantage over those who don't (and make things somewhat automated). Gear swaps, chat spam for crafting/guilds, sure those have valid reasons to want macros. But clicking a target, using your keybind, and going back to your last target? Come on.

    I use the mouseover macro and if I don't mouseover anyone I heal the targets target (the tank). I started using this macro a few months back, and i quite like it. I use it so I can always target the boss and follow it's health, cast bar and debuffs. I don't use it because I find it quicker or easier, and I find in quite unreliable and start clicking my target sometimes.

    I also can not find a good reason to use the "target to last target" useful. Maybe i understand the "targets last target" wrong xD

    That's what a Focus target is for. Focus target the boss and you will be able to see it's health, what it's casting, who it's targeting, and easily re-target it when necessary. It creates a separate/secondary, permanent target frame for whoever your focus target is, that exists separately from your current target (i.e. whatever player/mob you manually target). No need to create macros for something that's a basic UI element present in most modern MMO's.

    That's true, but in WoW classic I'm not 100% sure Focus target frame exist. Some add-ons probably have this.

    Now I'm quit curtain Ashes will have this (boss frame), so you are correct that, my use of the mouseover macro won't be necessary. I personally like the physical feedback when clicking the target I want to heal, so I'm 100% sure that's the player I will heal. So no complaints from me there.

    Yea that was the problem is that Classic didn't have a focus target IIRC, but that's also a game made like 15 years ago.

    True, and as you said, many combat macros I have talked about (and using) won't be needed in a modern and good UI.
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    Threads like this and the DPS thread make me realize a large portion of the MMO community don't want innovation, they just want the next slice of the same pie.
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    Merek wrote: »
    Threads like this and the DPS thread make me realize a large portion of the MMO community don't want innovation, they just want the next slice of the same pie.

    Well we want ashes, and to me ashes is very innovative.
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    VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Merek wrote: »
    Threads like this and the DPS thread make me realize a large portion of the MMO community don't want innovation, they just want the next slice of the same pie.

    This is a great point.
    It is not like the DEVs are saying "No macros, No DPS meters, No name changes, ect" for no reason. These things are all game design decisions. Love them or hate them, there is a reason for each of these things, and we should at least be waiting until Beta2 to feel out how the game is without them.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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    It's undeniable that even low level keyboard macros give an advantage in mmorpgs. They give more timing precision than is humanly possible.

    As for convenient macros, I think that they shouldn't even be necessary in a well-designed game. For instance, say that you have to craft 1000 components. In a poorly designed game, you would have to click a thousand times to craft those components. In a well designed game, it would take maybe 10 or so max clicks or keyboard presses depending on how many different components types you have.

    This is where the innovation should be going. Eliminate the need for convenience macros by design, rather than band-aiding poor design by supporting macros.

    Also, someone mentioned liking macros that type stuff for you so you don't have to manually type everything into global chat. I really dislike this, because this is how you end up with chat being constantly spammed with "~~∆~~=<<W2S GOLD PM ME ^^ >==--~~~~". At least without macros, the person spammed would have to manually copy paste that and hit enter for each message.
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