The uncertain direction of animations

Before I start, I am aware that the animations are either placeholder or not tuned but I came across a comment when watching the recent showcase for the tank skills which kind of hits the head of the nail for me.

The comment was the following:
"I'm really looking forward to Ashes but the animations seem quite disappointing all round to me, the movements seem really inhuman, disjointed or impractical and it dose not seem to be an issue with them being unfinished or placeholder. The main concern for me seems to be down primarily to artistic direction or lack of it. The decisions made and the thinking behind the culmination of these animations worries me. I feel like the animation department needs new leadership and quickly. A cohesive direction needs to be made and enforced.
These animations are all over the place, a unified design philosophy is what is missing. As it stands this seems like inexperienced forced spectacle and there is little more cringe educing."

I don't want to be negative or like some people would call it, "being picky", but I truly share the concerns of this comment.

I just wanted to create a discussion to see what other people think about the subject.

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Mowaby

Cypher wrote: »

Mowaby wrote: »

I think it is hard to tell if an ability locks the user in place based on the preview videos. Spells like fireball should be a casted spell. I think you should be able to cancel the cast when you move though. There are more spells like the lightning spell looked instant and might be something that you can do on the move.

I’d agree with you except you can watch the skills in action (pun intended) during the video on Intrepid’s YouTube channel, where from Steven’s perspective the devs fought a boss. Basic attacks seem to be about the only thing you can do while not locked in place.

Perhaps I’m spoiled by the combat of games like BDO or Vindictus. Or perhaps, with feedback, we can have a really nice and fluid combat system in this game.

I will have to watch it more closely. I think it will be hard to know for sure till at least after NDA is lifted.

Maciej

My only real concern with animations is how most of them are full body animations (especially anything that's more acrobatic in nature), which makes me worried that melee characters will be locked in place when attacking, like they were in Lineage 2. GW2 I think had a good balance when it came to attacks you could do on the run and attacks that rooted you in place.

ariatras

I assumed the lava animation for example was because of the weapon. As far as animations themselves go.

A decent rule to adhere to is that the animations should be as long as the cast time of an ability.

So if an ability has no cast time. A long animation does one of two things.

One: Continue finishing the animation even though the player is already moving. If we take the slam for example. And let us assume, just for the sake of argument that it is an instant cast. You click, and immediately move afterwards. The animation still plays, but at what point should the damage be done? Instantly when you press the button? Or at the end? At the end would make it feel like there's a huge delay, which is not conductive of a game with action combat.

Two: Render the character immovable whilst the animation is being performed. Which, again, does not quite gel with an action based combat system.

Simplicity is more. Say I am casting a fireball for example, but character starts the animation, but for whatever reason I decide to cancel the cast, usually by moving.If the animations are complex, you get the same problem as described above. If the animation is simple. Like channelling magic in his hand as it turns into fire. But when I then move you can just make the fire fizzle out. Sure, it doesn't look as fancy, but it feels extremely responsive.

If you don't want simplicity and do enjoy flashy things. I would propose going for option One Where the damage is being done/projectile calculated the moment the cast time finishes. And I'll just strafe left or right as the animation finishes causing my fireball salto to have me move and change directions mid-air.

Cold 0ne FTB

For me I don't care about the visual of animations. I care about the fluidity and flow of skills. Are there awkward pauses during skills? Can I stop an animation mid cast? (Regardless of if it actually completes the cast.) Is there enough counter play to CC? Is stunlocking an aspect of the game? Is the counter play to CC too strong easy to access? Will we fill engaged?

It's still early to dig into these aspects of combat but arguing about the artistic style misses the point.

Personally if I was the devs I would take advantage of the variety of classes and builds and address this like how they addressed tab targetting vs action combat. Make it so you can make a build primarily with one or the other but give access to both. The meta might lean one way or the other and that is fine but giving the option is the best solution.

Khronus

daveywavey wrote: »

My favourite part was this:

Blandmarrow wrote: »

Before I start, I am aware that the animations are either placeholder or not tuned
...
and it dose not seem to be an issue with them being unfinished or placeholder.

They have a good team of experienced staff. Let them do what they do, and if it turns out you don't like it, you'll always have the option of not playing.

I agree with 99% of your posts but this one I just can't. The animations are definitely not in the right place and if a good chunk of the community is suggesting change, I think they should definitely consider it. Those cleric animations were god awful. Like....garbage. Yes, I know they are "placeholders' but holy hell don't show us that lol. Can you imagine 500v500 if that is what cleric animations will be? Can you imagine how terrible playing a caster will be if you have to stand still (or hover) while casting basic spells? I can only imagine how long summoners are going to STAND STILL while summoning the special raid summon. I have a group of bloodthirsty rogues already lined up to just murder people. Ranger is going to be OP if enemy casters are dancing around all day. The option to not play just shouldn't be a thing when everything can be fixed/fine tuned.

As far as the dude suggesting to terminate employees, that is WAY overboard. They need the opportunity to reflect on feedback and make adjustments. They have plenty of time and have the talent to do so.

Khronus

Noaani wrote: »

The biggest issue we have right now is that in most games at this point in development,we don't see any in game video.

While it's fine to leave comments saying you don't like them as they are right now, and why you don't like them, don't for even a second assume that what we see now will be what we get in the final game.

Same with the abilities themselves. They aren't making abilities right now with the augment system in mind - they are essentially making abilities that include the base ability and an augment.

So again, feel free to say what you don't like, and why. Just make the assumption that what we see now will not be what we get at release.

100% agree. Interpid knows this and allowing us to see their alpha content is exactly what they want. They have a plan and that plan is to listen to feedback. The community needs to understand that once we deliver "constructive feedback", we need to sit back and let them reflect and make the changes THEY want to make.

mcstackerson

Cypher wrote: »

Mowaby wrote: »

I think it is hard to tell if an ability locks the user in place based on the preview videos. Spells like fireball should be a casted spell. I think you should be able to cancel the cast when you move though. There are more spells like the lightning spell looked instant and might be something that you can do on the move.

I’d agree with you except you can watch the skills in action (pun intended) during the video on Intrepid’s YouTube channel, where from Steven’s perspective the devs fought a boss. Basic attacks seem to be about the only thing you can do while not locked in place.

Perhaps I’m spoiled by the combat of games like BDO or Vindictus. Or perhaps, with feedback, we can have a really nice and fluid combat system in this game.

I'm not sure if this has been said in this thread but they have mentioned that the hybrid system has not been implemented yet. This isn't the final combat system. Currently they are internally testing different systems and we will hopefully see some of it in the coming months.

Cypher

mcstackerson wrote: »

Cypher wrote: »

Mowaby wrote: »

I think it is hard to tell if an ability locks the user in place based on the preview videos. Spells like fireball should be a casted spell. I think you should be able to cancel the cast when you move though. There are more spells like the lightning spell looked instant and might be something that you can do on the move.

I’d agree with you except you can watch the skills in action (pun intended) during the video on Intrepid’s YouTube channel, where from Steven’s perspective the devs fought a boss. Basic attacks seem to be about the only thing you can do while not locked in place.

Perhaps I’m spoiled by the combat of games like BDO or Vindictus. Or perhaps, with feedback, we can have a really nice and fluid combat system in this game.

I'm not sure if this has been said in this thread but they have mentioned that the hybrid system has not been implemented yet. This isn't the final combat system. Currently they are internally testing different systems and we will hopefully see some of it in the coming months.

Sure, we know this. I mean absolutely no disrespect and I thank you for your comment but “Nothing final” and “hybrid combat” and “combat system is about to be reworked” have been repeated ad nauseam throughout the forum.

But that doesn’t change the fact that these are the animations they feel comfortable showing off now. And aside from being over the top, especially for low level, they indicate a lack of movement with regards to skills. We need to stay vocal. I’m hoping the upcoming combat rework is fantastic and feels great and perhaps you only get rooted in place for an animation where it makes sense.

I’m going to stay vocal until we see it, and if it either still needs work or goes in the opposite direction from what most of us are wanting, I’ll stay vocal then as well.

daveywavey

Khronus wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

My favourite part was this:

Blandmarrow wrote: »

Before I start, I am aware that the animations are either placeholder or not tuned
...
and it dose not seem to be an issue with them being unfinished or placeholder.

They have a good team of experienced staff. Let them do what they do, and if it turns out you don't like it, you'll always have the option of not playing.

I agree with 99% of your posts but this one I just can't. The animations are definitely not in the right place and if a good chunk of the community is suggesting change, I think they should definitely consider it. Those cleric animations were god awful. Like....garbage. Yes, I know they are "placeholders' but holy hell don't show us that lol. Can you imagine 500v500 if that is what cleric animations will be? Can you imagine how terrible playing a caster will be if you have to stand still (or hover) while casting basic spells? I can only imagine how long summoners are going to STAND STILL while summoning the special raid summon. I have a group of bloodthirsty rogues already lined up to just murder people. Ranger is going to be OP if enemy casters are dancing around all day. The option to not play just shouldn't be a thing when everything can be fixed/fine tuned.

As far as the dude suggesting to terminate employees, that is WAY overboard. They need the opportunity to reflect on feedback and make adjustments. They have plenty of time and have the talent to do so.

They had stand-still casting and floating-casting in Guild Wars, and I never had any problem with it. If you can suspend your disbelief enough to accept that a person can use magic to raise an undead minion from a corpse, then you can suspend it enough to believe that this magic takes a lot of effort to use.

In Ashes, characters are just coming through the portal having had no access to magic for thousands of years. They probably shouldn't all be insta-casting meteor showers.

As for the Ranger vs Caster thing: If you're summoning the special raid summon, it's going to be a monster of a skill. It shouldn't be a quick-cast, and an enemy player absolutely should be targeting them, regardless of cast time.

Dreoh

daveywavey wrote: »

Khronus wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

My favourite part was this:

Blandmarrow wrote: »

Before I start, I am aware that the animations are either placeholder or not tuned
...
and it dose not seem to be an issue with them being unfinished or placeholder.

They have a good team of experienced staff. Let them do what they do, and if it turns out you don't like it, you'll always have the option of not playing.

I agree with 99% of your posts but this one I just can't. The animations are definitely not in the right place and if a good chunk of the community is suggesting change, I think they should definitely consider it. Those cleric animations were god awful. Like....garbage. Yes, I know they are "placeholders' but holy hell don't show us that lol. Can you imagine 500v500 if that is what cleric animations will be? Can you imagine how terrible playing a caster will be if you have to stand still (or hover) while casting basic spells? I can only imagine how long summoners are going to STAND STILL while summoning the special raid summon. I have a group of bloodthirsty rogues already lined up to just murder people. Ranger is going to be OP if enemy casters are dancing around all day. The option to not play just shouldn't be a thing when everything can be fixed/fine tuned.

As far as the dude suggesting to terminate employees, that is WAY overboard. They need the opportunity to reflect on feedback and make adjustments. They have plenty of time and have the talent to do so.

They had stand-still casting and floating-casting in Guild Wars, and I never had any problem with it. If you can suspend your disbelief enough to accept that a person can use magic to raise an undead minion from a corpse, then you can suspend it enough to believe that this magic takes a lot of effort to use.

In Ashes, characters are just coming through the portal having had no access to magic for thousands of years. They probably shouldn't all be insta-casting meteor showers.

As for the Ranger vs Caster thing: If you're summoning the special raid summon, it's going to be a monster of a skill. It shouldn't be a quick-cast, and an enemy player absolutely should be targeting them, regardless of cast time.

If they even somewhat replicate in part Guild Wars 2 combat AoC would most likely become by far my favourite MMO. GW2 combat is just solid, fluid and ACTUALLY fun, unlike other MMO's.

Blandmarrow

daveywavey wrote: »

Khronus wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

My favourite part was this:

Blandmarrow wrote: »

Before I start, I am aware that the animations are either placeholder or not tuned
...
and it dose not seem to be an issue with them being unfinished or placeholder.

They have a good team of experienced staff. Let them do what they do, and if it turns out you don't like it, you'll always have the option of not playing.

I agree with 99% of your posts but this one I just can't. The animations are definitely not in the right place and if a good chunk of the community is suggesting change, I think they should definitely consider it. Those cleric animations were god awful. Like....garbage. Yes, I know they are "placeholders' but holy hell don't show us that lol. Can you imagine 500v500 if that is what cleric animations will be? Can you imagine how terrible playing a caster will be if you have to stand still (or hover) while casting basic spells? I can only imagine how long summoners are going to STAND STILL while summoning the special raid summon. I have a group of bloodthirsty rogues already lined up to just murder people. Ranger is going to be OP if enemy casters are dancing around all day. The option to not play just shouldn't be a thing when everything can be fixed/fine tuned.

As far as the dude suggesting to terminate employees, that is WAY overboard. They need the opportunity to reflect on feedback and make adjustments. They have plenty of time and have the talent to do so.

They had stand-still casting and floating-casting in Guild Wars, and I never had any problem with it. If you can suspend your disbelief enough to accept that a person can use magic to raise an undead minion from a corpse, then you can suspend it enough to believe that this magic takes a lot of effort to use.

In Ashes, characters are just coming through the portal having had no access to magic for thousands of years. They probably shouldn't all be insta-casting meteor showers.

As for the Ranger vs Caster thing: If you're summoning the special raid summon, it's going to be a monster of a skill. It shouldn't be a quick-cast, and an enemy player absolutely should be targeting them, regardless of cast time.

I can't believe you'd make that argument about accepting silly animations just because there are fantasy elements in the game. Just because something is based in a fantasy setting does not mean it can do whatever it wants and still be believable, cuz fantasy lulz.

As long as something in a fantasy setting is explained and given reason to why it works like it does it can remain believable, thus allowing your brain to believe it could really exist and keeping the immersion intact.

Cypher

Dreoh wrote: »

If they even somewhat replicate in part Guild Wars 2 combat AoC would most likely become by far my favourite MMO. GW2 combat is just solid, fluid and ACTUALLY fun, unlike other MMO's.

I think the guild wars 2 combat should be what the *tab* combat should be like. Not at all how the action combat should be. Guild wars 2 was not action at all, you lock a target and you press your 1-5 keys. Sure you could move during most skills but compare GW2 to BDO or Vindictus (the two examples I will continue to use every time) and there’s a huge difference.

So to reiterate:
GW2 combat for the Tab-combat portion of the game.
BDO/Vindictus for the Action-combat portion.

Dreoh

Cypher wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

If they even somewhat replicate in part Guild Wars 2 combat AoC would most likely become by far my favourite MMO. GW2 combat is just solid, fluid and ACTUALLY fun, unlike other MMO's.

I think the guild wars 2 combat should be what the *tab* combat should be like. Not at all how the action combat should be. Guild wars 2 was not action at all, you lock a target and you press your 1-5 keys. Sure you could move during most skills but compare GW2 to BDO or Vindictus (the two examples I will continue to use every time) and there’s a huge difference.

So to reiterate:
GW2 combat for the Tab-combat portion of the game.
BDO/Vindictus for the Action-combat portion.

Well GW2 combat is already hybrid combat since it's tab-target but also not really since you can do everything without having a tab target, if they actually make a whole separate system that would be very bad. Having two whole separate combat systems makes balance incredibly more difficult and also just feels jank as fuck

Cypher

Dreoh wrote: »

Cypher wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

If they even somewhat replicate in part Guild Wars 2 combat AoC would most likely become by far my favourite MMO. GW2 combat is just solid, fluid and ACTUALLY fun, unlike other MMO's.

I think the guild wars 2 combat should be what the *tab* combat should be like. Not at all how the action combat should be. Guild wars 2 was not action at all, you lock a target and you press your 1-5 keys. Sure you could move during most skills but compare GW2 to BDO or Vindictus (the two examples I will continue to use every time) and there’s a huge difference.

So to reiterate:
GW2 combat for the Tab-combat portion of the game.
BDO/Vindictus for the Action-combat portion.

Well GW2 combat is already hybrid combat since it's tab-target but also not really since you can do everything without having a tab target, if they actually make a whole separate system that would be very bad. Having two whole separate combat systems makes balance incredibly more difficult and also just feels jank as fuck

Have you played BDO? If you did you would realize what action combat is. Actual action combat is new to the MMO space relatively speaking and GW2 is not action or hybrid. It may have an “action cam” but you’re still actually tab targeting enemies and playing the boring and repetitive hot bar game. Just because you can move your camera without holding RMB does not make the system action combat.

Frostshot1

If you haven't tried GW2 for a while, it does have action camera. Mouse look with reticle. You can toggle it on or off in the system menu, or set up ahot key to switch back to mouse click control. Honestly with the action camera GW2 combat is a lt more fun that it used to be. In my opinion. I hope that Ashes combat is fast a fluid like that.

Cypher

I have played GW2 off and on and the combat is one of the main reasons why I can’t stay invested.

I already mentioned the action cam:

It may have an “action cam” but you’re still actually tab targeting enemies and playing the boring and repetitive hot bar game. Just because you can move your camera without holding RMB does not make the system action combat.

And while the camera is similar to what you get with action combat, in the sense that you can simply move your camera without holding RMB, the actual combat still behaves like a tab target game. Wondering if you’ve perhaps played either of the games I was referring to previously?

Frostshot1

You can set it up so that it auto targets and re-targets when you attack people. Also depends on the class and the weapons your using, some are more fire and forget friendly. I mostly do wvw, havent really done any raiding or that sort of stuff.

BDO combat is ok, the combo system is a little bit too arcade style and complicated for my taste. But it isn't horrible. I never really got into Vindictus. I think I played for 5 min in beta or something and didn't like it.

Okeydoke

There are some valid concerns in this thread. I don't think there's necessarily a right or wrong answer. But I think the devs should think about it some more and what they're going for.

One thing I'm definitely concerned about is the animations leading to animation cancelling gimmicks like seen in ESO and a handful of other games over the years.

daveywavey

Blandmarrow wrote: »

As long as something in a fantasy setting is explained and given reason to why it works like it does it can remain believable, thus allowing your brain to believe it could really exist and keeping the immersion intact.

The power of the Essence is so strong that it physically lifts the caster off the ground while casting certain skills. There you go. Explained it. I'm sure there are plenty other ways it could be explained. Do you like the animations now?

Blandmarrow

daveywavey wrote: »

Blandmarrow wrote: »

As long as something in a fantasy setting is explained and given reason to why it works like it does it can remain believable, thus allowing your brain to believe it could really exist and keeping the immersion intact.

The power of the Essence is so strong that it physically lifts the caster off the ground while casting certain skills. There you go. Explained it. I'm sure there are plenty other ways it could be explained. Do you like the animations now?

Well gee, now it all makes sense, thanks!

The problem is that they look silly and probably don't work well with combat if it's supposed to be quite action oriented. But thanks for the band aid.

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