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The uncertain direction of animations
Blandmarrow
Member
Before I start, I am aware that the animations are either placeholder or not tuned but I came across a comment when watching the recent showcase for the tank skills which kind of hits the head of the nail for me.
The comment was the following:
"I'm really looking forward to Ashes but the animations seem quite disappointing all round to me, the movements seem really inhuman, disjointed or impractical and it dose not seem to be an issue with them being unfinished or placeholder. The main concern for me seems to be down primarily to artistic direction or lack of it. The decisions made and the thinking behind the culmination of these animations worries me. I feel like the animation department needs new leadership and quickly. A cohesive direction needs to be made and enforced.
These animations are all over the place, a unified design philosophy is what is missing. As it stands this seems like inexperienced forced spectacle and there is little more cringe educing."
I don't want to be negative or like some people would call it, "being picky", but I truly share the concerns of this comment.
I just wanted to create a discussion to see what other people think about the subject.
The comment was the following:
"I'm really looking forward to Ashes but the animations seem quite disappointing all round to me, the movements seem really inhuman, disjointed or impractical and it dose not seem to be an issue with them being unfinished or placeholder. The main concern for me seems to be down primarily to artistic direction or lack of it. The decisions made and the thinking behind the culmination of these animations worries me. I feel like the animation department needs new leadership and quickly. A cohesive direction needs to be made and enforced.
These animations are all over the place, a unified design philosophy is what is missing. As it stands this seems like inexperienced forced spectacle and there is little more cringe educing."
I don't want to be negative or like some people would call it, "being picky", but I truly share the concerns of this comment.
I just wanted to create a discussion to see what other people think about the subject.
18
Comments
UE4 is a difficult engine for movement. If you don't spend a long time fixing the issue with UE4 movement then everything that is built on top the of unchanged engine will be flawed and lack relational vibes. You can make gorgeous scenery in UE4. The engine isn't the worst engine. The problem comes when the amalgamation process takes place. You can lift an element from a third source but if you lack the flare and the engine to pull it off it just looks weird.
The team are veteran MMO designers for the most part. None of them seem to have worked with UE4 before. The combat should be fluid like Archeage, not static like Lineage 2. Polish can't rectify an inherent flaw unless you start from the very fabric of the movement systems. I do not know if the team have the time or the resources to go back to the base source.
If I was paying a monthly sub then I would expect better. There is no box cost but I've spent more than 8 times the amount of a box cost for packages and cosmetics. The issues are still very blatant and it is fortunate we are in Alpha 1 area. The iterations will be improved but I wonder just how much improvement can be made without resetting the iterations entirely. There is no reason to have lifts/levitation/jumps. The skills should be activated while running or moving. It is the essence of a good combat system.
The animations themselves are long winded and animation locked. I do not mind an animation lock for some skills, there will be no animation cancelling though so every active skill will be a chore. You can animation lock while allowing movement. Animation lock and static abilities do not blend well together.
I certainly agree with this.
Well, if a random comment from some nobody doesn't make a company sack its staff and hire new ones, I don't know what will.
They have a good team of experienced staff. Let them do what they do, and if it turns out you don't like it, you'll always have the option of not playing.
I will, thanks.
Doesn't mean I won't voice my concerns or disappointments even in this early stage of development.
However, consider it from the following perspective: For this early on in the game development, the graphics and the animations are spectacular. The fact that they're able to show us anything this beautifully designed and well constructed, so early on, is a great achievement and looks very promising for the game's future.
I understand most of what we discuss will probably never reach the devs. I also understand I wont sleep well if I do not stand by IS and explain the issues. Ultimately, I want to play Ashes of Creation. Certain issues will drive me away.
Edit: When you can see trends in the animations and classes, there is an underlying issue which must be addressed. The more classes and iterations which run with the same flaws, the bigger the work will be to correct the issues and the less likely the issues will be fixed.
Sure, I guess you have a point. However, the animation team still has a pattern of making things that are over the top.
On the other hand, I've never played/not played a game for it's animations.
As others have said, some abilities should definitely lock you in place, where it makes sense. But every single ability can not and should not do that.
And by the way I like having spectacle in the combat, but these are supposed to be low level skills for one, and for two every single skill can’t be spectacle just for the sake of it. Why would the tank impale an enemy and just leave the weapon? Pull your sword back out.
And why is there lava/fire effects from stomping the ground? This is a low level tank. If the character picks up a mage subclass then by all means let the abilities have some elements infused.
I have never player a game for the animations as well. If the game has the systems I look for in I generally try it out.
The issue I am having with AOC is that they put this videos out there, and time after time I see reaction threads where people are saying the animations are a little over done or clunky. Then they remind us it is all place holder. Then they do it again.
When talking about the visual direction of they game they say they want things to look good and fantasy, but not silly. Well to me some of these animations are silly. These are level 1-10 animations were talking about. I fear how crazy a level 40-50 skill is going to look.
All that said. If they just said. "We like over the top animations." I would think they are doing a great job. I just have not gotten the feeling that they like over the top anything with how grounded the rest of the game looks in comparison.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
My thoughts exactly on this. It really surprised me how much "magical effect" a supposedly martial archetype's abilities project. This dude is level 10 and strong enough to slam the ground so hard it turned into lava. What am I to make of this? Weren't our characters just now returning to a world of magic after thousands of years hidden away from it? Add that onto them being stuck in the medieval stage of civilization for thousands of years without any technological advance to be seen and you get a really odd desync between the lore and what we are being shown.
Perhaps this doesn't matter to most, but it is really confusing to reconcile these details, and kind of off-putting.
I just wanted to comment really quick that this is a bit disingenuous to say because nobody plays a game solely for the animations. Nor solely for the sound. Nor solely for the textures. But it's always glaringly apparent when one of these or another aspect of a game is below average.
For sure. I can't suspend my disbelief when I see the animations and effects at the moment, because they don't feel grounded in the reality they are setting the world out to be.
As many are pointing out as well, there doesn't seem to be any logic or purpose behind the direction of abilities and their animations.
Some examples:
- why does the javelin throw cause stones and dust to rise??
- Myrmidons animation doesn't seem to indicate what the ability does at all. The tooltip they give is that it increases your damage mitigation but I can barely tell how the character swings the sword.
- Why does Shockwave, a stomp ability, cause lava to erupt?
Abilities should convey what they do before they try do anything else.
Oh yeah, then there is also smoke and particles for each and every hit to indicate that you hit your target, why?
I don't think that is the issue, but it would make them less silly and more grounded in reality.
absolutely.
What do you think the issue is? For me when I see the animations most them look unnatural. All the effects stuff can be done later.
I'm sure it's a bigger deal for people who are into game-dev, as your sig implies. Yours truly has only re-made "Flappy Bird" in Unity, and more recently started to build some 3D worlds in UE5.
Keep in mind, my 1st MMO was the same as Steven's: The original 1991 - 1997 Neverwinter Nights Online, playable only on America Online. Our combat animations included a left-to-right flip of your character's graphic to imply turning or movement, and a 2nd graphic where your sword was in an up position, then a down position, when you went to attack (the stalves went from a slight bend to a just-more-slightly-bent position).
Yours truly isn't saying that *anyone* plays a game just for a single element such as animations, sound, textures, etc (that would - as you stated - be disingenuous); I'm simply to say that's it's less-important and less glaring to some folks, than others. Case-and-point: if the game came out tomorrow with the place-holder animations, some folks would be greatly bothered by it, while I wouldn't raise an eyebrow, at it.
Either way, our thread here feels a tad counter-productive, since Steven has re-iterated time-and-again that he's always worried about new videos, as some folks are inevidibly looking at it and thinking 'this is the final product' - but it's not!
Your argument here is still disingenuous. I didn't mean for it to spark a discussion on it but you do bring up some more points I feel I have to refute.
First, I agree with you that a major portion of players aren't going to have a critical eye about these kinds of things, but that's not what I was necessarily inferring. Players may not play a game for animations or sounds or the like, but they sure as hell recognize when it hits that sweet spot. Have you played a shooter with subpar gun noises? They don't feel satisfying to shoot and thus people aren't as interested. This is anecdotal, but I personally have been addicted to Apex specifically because the guns feel so good to shoot, animation, sound and all. The same principle applies to animations. I guarantee Monster Hunter wouldn't be as popular if the animations in that series were lackluster.
Second, are you really going to compare a 20 year old game's animations to the ones in AoC? I get you were trying to make a point about how back in the day we had shitty animations and we were ok with it and that because you were ok with those shitty animations then you're ok with these shitty animations, but this argument is disingenuous because you're not comparing it with it's own context, the games of it's time. If you were to use this argument correctly you'd be comparing AoC's animations to FF14 or BDO or similar since they're of the same era. Furthermore, you're saying your standards haven't risen with the rising standards of technology in general.
Sure, you might not be bothered by these animations, whether it be because your standards are low, or because you just don't care, but in either of those cases your opinion on the matter then doesn't matter, which is why I brought this up in the first place. We are critical because we do care, and we want the game to be the best it can be.
As for your final point, I will have to highly disagree that this thread is counter-productive. Wrong? Possibly, but only because the devs might already have a concrete plan on where to take the artistic direction regarding animations. However, the fact that they are presenting the animations in these class previews like they are implies that they are somewhat happy with the direction they are taking with them. The countless threads that have sprung forth from these previews shows that many people are worried about the exact thing OP's quote is describing. Many of the abilities and effects we've seen so far just look.. bland or really just bad, and we have no actual concrete confirmation so far whether the devs are happy with what they're showing us or not.
What I personally am scared of is that the devs are all overly excited about the creation of AoC and aren't being as critical themselves about their own work and are exaggerating and adding flair at every step because "This detail would be cool". The problem is if each person is adding flair at every step, then things become a chaotic convoluted mess of flashiness and hyperbole. This is why you need a clear and objective artistic direction. I'm scared of another Xenoblade 2 artistic failure, wherein many of the characters are clearly from different artists and look like they belong in a different game entirely.
This ended up a lot longer than I intended, sorry about that lol
While it's fine to leave comments saying you don't like them as they are right now, and why you don't like them, don't for even a second assume that what we see now will be what we get in the final game.
Same with the abilities themselves. They aren't making abilities right now with the augment system in mind - they are essentially making abilities that include the base ability and an augment.
So again, feel free to say what you don't like, and why. Just make the assumption that what we see now will not be what we get at release.
As for the graphics, I personally was chalking it up to the early Alpha stage. But I do now see why people are commenting on this. Some of the combat graphics do look out of place.
From only the perspective of a player, and in my opinion, this would be my critique on the video.
Armor skins / reflections are looking great.
Weapon toss - skill graphics look ok. I don't see any issues there.
Bulwark (shield bash) - looks like it needs some refinement. The 2nd strike looks more like an elbow to the face than a shield smash. Angles off or something.
Ultimate defense - animation looks ok, I would like to see a lasting spell effect while the defense is active. Of some sort.
Javelin toss - Yeah the rocks flying off the ground are unnecessary. If anything I would expect the rocks to appear as you drag the body to you, as if kicked up by the movement of the person being pulled instead.
Lacerate - looked ok right up until the sword was left in the guys head. Would look better with 2 swipes instead of the head penetration.
Myrmidon - the graphics look fine, but I question how the jump at the end with the downward over head chop would create damage mitigation. Looks more like a damage boost than defensive move.
Onslaught - Looks pretty cool
Shockwave - I agree with most comments that the spell graphics don't make sense. I would prefer to see a shockwave echoing out from the point of impact to hit the mobs in the target area. Lava?
Resounding Smash - Pretty much the same comment as above. Lava?
And the ending scenes, I would like to see the grass move as you charge through it. But I suspect that this has to do with it still be early Alpha and not tweaked yet.
Anyways that was my constructive criticism from the video. Still think it looks pretty good, and can't wait for a finished product! I hope this will be my new MMO home in the future.
In general, I will give them the benefit of the doubt because they have earned it.
Also, sounds like some of you should apply for jobs with them.
Hey, it sounds as though you're even more-passionate as I am about this project. To give you an idea? Yours truly has been part of an RP community for 10 years, as of this year. I played our community's first game for 5 1/2 years, then the second game on-and-off for 9 years (with the math, obviously some cross-over, with some time outside the community, before joining). When a community-member informed me about AoC? *That's* what sparked my interest in game-development. AoC is the very reason I bothered to learn the basics of Unity and UE( For anyone interested in what the 2 of us are blithering on about, you can download and use versions of most game-engines *FOR FREE*, if you really want insight into the world of Dreoh and I).
Your passion is not lost on me, brother-man! If anything, you're in a greater position than I am, to gauge the quality of modern-day games than I am; I'm just saying that that graphics and animation aren't everything, to everyone. Some games are the unique interest that they are, simply per the unfortunately rare innovation that their ideas and ground-work offer. I'm sure you feel the same, on this point.
Aye - Steven's offered us a rare glimpse into something that yours truly has seen others on the forums and Reddit argue that might otherwise have been left un-known to the world-at-large until a much later stage in development. /ThankYou to the Intrepid staff, to giving us something to look forward, to.
Yours truly has to /agree. In seeing so many MMO's since the 90's, it's rare to see such innovation. The 1st Star Wars MMO? Oh, those of use who experienced it will tell tales of it, for many years to come! Truly a pioneer, in pre-WoW MMO's. The 2nd Star Wars MMO was quite literally a shameless cash-grab, while the 3rd was an un-abashed WoW clone with a Star Wars skin (SWA and SWTOR, in that order).
Don't you jinx us! Throw some sea salt over one shoulder, to dis-spell any such a curse!
Yours truly is hoping for early 2023, at the latest....
To give you an idea? The updates in the 4.23 build to the 4.25 build cost the Intrepid staff a year of code re-writes; We might have literally gotten a launch date 1 year earlier from the date it will actually launch, as a result. Dreoh would probably be in a better position to explain the discrepancies as to why this is, but it was THAT BIG of a deal. What he says about the animation short-coming of UE4 ring quite true.
There's an endless supply of YouTube videos to explain why, if you have a few hours to spare for technical hoo-ha and further insight. Let's just say it wasn't a popular change, for those already working on projects in 4.23 - such as was the unfortunate case for Aoc.