If I can't just die on purpose, then I actually HAVE to grind mobs to rid of corruption.
I mean, you need to grind mobs one way or the other.
Either grinding to get rid of corruption, or grinding to get rid of negative experience, and the fairly substantial debuff that comes with experience debt.
How substantial is the XP debt though? If it's SO substantial that death is THAT punishing, then you would never use dying on purpose.
As I have been saying all along, a purposeful death is viable, but only in situations that are unreasonably unlikely.
When someone contorts a theoretical situation in to something that is not going to happen, where they have no means of exiting that situation other than dying, then obviously dying is the best thing they can do, as they got themself in to a position where it is all that is left.
For everyone else - for people that show evidence of at least double digit IQ while playing the game - these situations simply won't come up, and so it is likely that there will not be that many people dying on purpose to clear corruption.
i do agree that people will find better solutions than Dying on purpose.
My personal concept right now looks like this:
If i want someone dead:
I'll get them close to low hp on my main. (Until a bit further than the last HP bar threshhold)
Deal the killing blow with my nearby stationed multiboxed alt.
Then activate bounty hunter on my main and kill the alt.
maximum profit.
Alternatively i'd do with a friend/group member if i'm doing something with them
If I can't just die on purpose, then I actually HAVE to grind mobs to rid of corruption.
I mean, you need to grind mobs one way or the other.
Either grinding to get rid of corruption, or grinding to get rid of negative experience, and the fairly substantial debuff that comes with experience debt.
How substantial is the XP debt though? If it's SO substantial that death is THAT punishing, then you would never use dying on purpose.
As I have been saying all along, a purposeful death is viable, but only in situations that are unreasonably unlikely.
When someone contorts a theoretical situation in to something that is not going to happen, where they have no means of exiting that situation other than dying, then obviously dying is the best thing they can do, as they got themself in to a position where it is all that is left.
For everyone else - for people that show evidence of at least double digit IQ while playing the game - these situations simply won't come up, and so it is likely that there will not be that many people dying on purpose to clear corruption.
Can you keep your shitty attitude out of this discussion? I don't give a shit if you disagree with me, but insulting my intelligence is stupidly immature of you.
If the death penalty in terms of XP loss is "that's kind of annoying" there's little stopping me from grinding it out as a green and then going straight back into my killing spree, as Warth said. That is so much better than grinding it out while I'm corrupted. Again, you get to skip all the actual hard parts of corruption by dying on purpose.
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FuryBladeborneMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
lol I do literally say "I'm not being delevelled" in my post but all good, you mustn't have seen that.
If you're confident that mob spots will be available for corrupted players then that is a good thing, but even then I am still concerned that the mere fact that reds can't fight back means that realistically every green (even PvErs) would and should attack them, at any point in the world because the red isn't going to fight back almost all of the time. So even if there are mob spots that are available, the same issue still occurs out in the world, and that would likely make it difficult for the red to reach those mob spots. If working off corruption takes a long time also, the chances are that people will end up at the mob spot and attack them anyway.
You said that your XP drops, which threw me off when I read "delevelled" a few words later but doesn't change my point. You don't lose XP from dying, you only accumulate XP debt; and, that debt has several of the same penalties as corruption. Meanwhile, dying as corrupted also increases the XP debt at 4x higher than dying not corrupted.
For the record, I do think that your making valid points that should be considered during the corruption testing which I am pretty sure is scheduled for Alpha 2.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
But if grinding mobs is very hard because you can't defend yourself, then you'd just quit the game because there's no effective way to get rid of corruption.
Again these players leaving is a good thing.
your occassional corrupted leaving isn't a good thing.
Your constant murder hobos leaving is a good thing.
Just that the constant murder hobos aren't affected by this discussion at all, as they'd be killing the greens either way[/quote]
His whole point is about murder hobos: from page 2.
Use throwaway gear that you put on before you become a corrupted. You won't have materials because you plan ahead to gank people. Don't need to trade or store. Don't need to family summon. You can just exploit your way back out of corruption by dying on purpose.
And I disagree I don't think occasional corrupted will face this. This only applies to jerks greifing greens then killing them selves to drop corruption then doing it again.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
But if grinding mobs is very hard because you can't defend yourself, then you'd just quit the game because there's no effective way to get rid of corruption.
Again these players leaving is a good thing.
your occassional corrupted leaving isn't a good thing.
Your constant murder hobos leaving is a good thing.
Just that the constant murder hobos aren't affected by this discussion at all, as they'd be killing the greens either way
His whole point is about murder hobos: from page 2.
Use throwaway gear that you put on before you become a corrupted. You won't have materials because you plan ahead to gank people. Don't need to trade or store. Don't need to family summon. You can just exploit your way back out of corruption by dying on purpose.
And I disagree I don't think occasional corrupted will face this. This only applies to jerks greifing greens then killing them selves to drop corruption then doing it again.
No but if a system punishes corrupted players, it doesn't pick and choose based on if they're griefers or not. These more normal players will still really struggle with ridding of corruption the legitimate way. So they'll also use the exploit. They won't use the exploit to grief, but they'd still use it. However, even those normal players still decided to become corrupted. They deserve the consequences of that. AKA having to work to grind it off etc. as a corrupted.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If I can't just die on purpose, then I actually HAVE to grind mobs to rid of corruption.
I mean, you need to grind mobs one way or the other.
Either grinding to get rid of corruption, or grinding to get rid of negative experience, and the fairly substantial debuff that comes with experience debt.
How substantial is the XP debt though? If it's SO substantial that death is THAT punishing, then you would never use dying on purpose. But if you literally couldn't grind mobs, then it'd be as if you couldn't die to get rid of corruption anyway, cause it'd be so punishing that it'd be not worth dying at all as a corrupted. But then literally no one would even dare touch corruption, even in those moments where you are technically given the choice to murder wouldn't even be meaningful choices because you'd realistically never do one over the other. Anyone who did become corrupted would just quit cause it'd be broken. You may as well not have the corruption system at that point.
No, that is THE choice. Kill that jerk and take the corruption and punishment it entails or let that jerk go.
The corruption is setup to stop the murder sprees you are worried about. Not the one off "I hate that guy" kill.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
But if grinding mobs is very hard because you can't defend yourself, then you'd just quit the game because there's no effective way to get rid of corruption.
Again these players leaving is a good thing.
Yeah but you're not just affecting the fringes, you're affecting anyone who even dips their toes into corruption... I might even do it once in a while. Am I on the same level as those griefers? [/quote]
No it only effects the fringes not those of us that will wack a green we don't like once in a while.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
If I can't just die on purpose, then I actually HAVE to grind mobs to rid of corruption.
I mean, you need to grind mobs one way or the other.
Either grinding to get rid of corruption, or grinding to get rid of negative experience, and the fairly substantial debuff that comes with experience debt.
How substantial is the XP debt though? If it's SO substantial that death is THAT punishing, then you would never use dying on purpose. But if you literally couldn't grind mobs, then it'd be as if you couldn't die to get rid of corruption anyway, cause it'd be so punishing that it'd be not worth dying at all as a corrupted. But then literally no one would even dare touch corruption, even in those moments where you are technically given the choice to murder wouldn't even be meaningful choices because you'd realistically never do one over the other. Anyone who did become corrupted would just quit cause it'd be broken. You may as well not have the corruption system at that point.
No, that is THE choice. Kill that jerk and take the corruption and punishment it entails or let that jerk go.
The corruption is setup to stop the murder sprees you are worried about. Not the one off "I hate that guy" kill.
It doesn't stop the murder sprees though.... Because they can die on purpose, and then build up the xp they lost from dying as a green. Then repeat.
just because there is a risk of being gaining corruption doesn't deter players from wanting to kill other players. It could be thrill for some players who want to be hunted. I can see how potentially killing yourself to lower the corruption timer could be exploited, but they could also just get rid of it and keep it as conditions that reduce the effect and timer.
There are lots of things you can do as stated to help remove your corruption. and obviously as stated and discussed before, why risk your best or only gear? if you worked hard enough to have spare gear and want to spend a nice Sunday afternoon ruining some non-combatants lives, well, so be it.
That's the open world pvp with a flagging system
It's not like people are going to plan to go on a killing spree solo against the world and expect to walk out unscathed, bring some friends! Make it a murder party
LOL
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
But if grinding mobs is very hard because you can't defend yourself, then you'd just quit the game because there's no effective way to get rid of corruption.
Again these players leaving is a good thing.
your occassional corrupted leaving isn't a good thing.
Your constant murder hobos leaving is a good thing.
Just that the constant murder hobos aren't affected by this discussion at all, as they'd be killing the greens either way
His whole point is about murder hobos: from page 2.
Use throwaway gear that you put on before you become a corrupted. You won't have materials because you plan ahead to gank people. Don't need to trade or store. Don't need to family summon. You can just exploit your way back out of corruption by dying on purpose.
And I disagree I don't think occasional corrupted will face this. This only applies to jerks greifing greens then killing them selves to drop corruption then doing it again.
No but if a system punishes corrupted players, it doesn't pick and choose based on if they're griefers or not. These more normal players will still really struggle with ridding of corruption the legitimate way. So they'll also use the exploit. They won't use the exploit to grief, but they'd still use it. However, even those normal players still decided to become corrupted. They deserve the consequences of that. AKA having to work to grind it off etc. as a corrupted.
Agree but the more you kill the higher the penalty. So killing one and moving on is not the same as patrolling the node and killing a bunch of them.
Depending on how bad the death penalty turns out to be dying may be a really really bad idea even for just the first kill.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If I can't just die on purpose, then I actually HAVE to grind mobs to rid of corruption.
I mean, you need to grind mobs one way or the other.
Either grinding to get rid of corruption, or grinding to get rid of negative experience, and the fairly substantial debuff that comes with experience debt.
How substantial is the XP debt though? If it's SO substantial that death is THAT punishing, then you would never use dying on purpose. But if you literally couldn't grind mobs, then it'd be as if you couldn't die to get rid of corruption anyway, cause it'd be so punishing that it'd be not worth dying at all as a corrupted. But then literally no one would even dare touch corruption, even in those moments where you are technically given the choice to murder wouldn't even be meaningful choices because you'd realistically never do one over the other. Anyone who did become corrupted would just quit cause it'd be broken. You may as well not have the corruption system at that point.
No, that is THE choice. Kill that jerk and take the corruption and punishment it entails or let that jerk go.
The corruption is setup to stop the murder sprees you are worried about. Not the one off "I hate that guy" kill.
It doesn't stop the murder sprees though.... Because they can die on purpose, and then build up the xp they lost from dying as a green. Then repeat.
Agreed but how long does it take to work those death penalties off and is it really worth your time?
Some trolls that is all they will do until they reach the communities KOS list.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
But if grinding mobs is very hard because you can't defend yourself, then you'd just quit the game because there's no effective way to get rid of corruption.
Again these players leaving is a good thing.
your occassional corrupted leaving isn't a good thing.
Your constant murder hobos leaving is a good thing.
Just that the constant murder hobos aren't affected by this discussion at all, as they'd be killing the greens either way
His whole point is about murder hobos: from page 2.
Use throwaway gear that you put on before you become a corrupted. You won't have materials because you plan ahead to gank people. Don't need to trade or store. Don't need to family summon. You can just exploit your way back out of corruption by dying on purpose.
And I disagree I don't think occasional corrupted will face this. This only applies to jerks greifing greens then killing them selves to drop corruption then doing it again.
No but if a system punishes corrupted players, it doesn't pick and choose based on if they're griefers or not. These more normal players will still really struggle with ridding of corruption the legitimate way. So they'll also use the exploit. They won't use the exploit to grief, but they'd still use it. However, even those normal players still decided to become corrupted. They deserve the consequences of that. AKA having to work to grind it off etc. as a corrupted.
Agree but the more you kill the higher the penalty. So killing one and moving on is not the same as patrolling the node and killing a bunch of them.
Depending on how bad the death penalty turns out to be dying may be a really really bad idea even for just the first kill.
true, killing yourself would give those 300-400% losses, so why would one want to do that. It's not like they would allow players to passively retain those losses offline
Can you keep your shitty attitude out of this discussion? I don't give a shit if you disagree with me, but insulting my intelligence is stupidly immature of you.
I didn't insult your intelligence, I insulted the intelligence of anyone that would let themselves get in to the situation you were talking about.
If the death penalty in terms of XP loss is "that's kind of annoying" there's little stopping me from grinding it out as a green and then going straight back into my killing spree, as Warth said. That is so much better than grinding it out while I'm corrupted. Again, you get to skip all the actual hard parts of corruption by dying on purpose.
Again, you are missing the point.
Those things that you think are the consequences of corruption - they are not. Those things are there to make it so players want to work off their corruption as fast as they can.
Sure, if you are corrupt, you can't easily go back to town as guards will attack you. The thing is, that shouldn't be an issue as you should be working off your corruption before you go back to town. It is a consequence of corruption, but it is not a penalty of corruption. It is not a penalty because if you do as you should (as is made somewhat obvious by the games systems) you will never be attacked by the guards due to corruption.
It may well be that you would prefer being killed while corrupt and then working off that experience debt via mob grinding (or anything that generates experience, to be honest - you don't need to kill stuff). If that is your preference, cool, have at it, you are still spending that time as a penalty.
Can you keep your shitty attitude out of this discussion? I don't give a shit if you disagree with me, but insulting my intelligence is stupidly immature of you.
I didn't insult your intelligence, I insulted the intelligence of anyone that would let themselves get in to the situation you were talking about.
If the death penalty in terms of XP loss is "that's kind of annoying" there's little stopping me from grinding it out as a green and then going straight back into my killing spree, as Warth said. That is so much better than grinding it out while I'm corrupted. Again, you get to skip all the actual hard parts of corruption by dying on purpose.
Again, you are missing the point.
Those things that you think are the consequences of corruption - they are not. Those things are there to make it so players want to work off their corruption as fast as they can.
Sure, if you are corrupt, you can't easily go back to town as guards will attack you. The thing is, that shouldn't be an issue as you should be working off your corruption before you go back to town. It is a consequence of corruption, but it is not a penalty of corruption. It is not a penalty because if you do as you should (as is made somewhat obvious by the games systems) you will never be attacked by the guards due to corruption.
It may well be that you would prefer being killed while corrupt and then working off that experience debt via mob grinding (or anything that generates experience, to be honest - you don't need to kill stuff). If that is your preference, cool, have at it, you are still spending that time as a penalty.
I think that they should be the primary reason that corruption is so unappealing. The fundamental reason for the system is to prevent players from overdoing their killing on non-consenting victims. Well if you make it really easy for them to "work off their xp debt" in peace, with no threat from greens, then they've technically avoided the stuff that'd make it otherwise quite punishing. Sure you have to work off your xp debt and it's a "penalty" but it's not a corruption specific penalty. Even a green who dies a lot will have to work off xp in the same way. What makes corruption's penalties unique is they stretch beyond what is applicable to all players. And that's what you get when you put a corrupted player into the world, instead of letting them escape it through death. If they're FORCED to deal with those things, then that's the true deterrent. A green with xp debt can still go and do things that a corrupted cannot. You are stripped of your freedom as a corrupted. But if you can get that freedom back without doing anything punishing that is specific to corruption, then that isn't designed well. I think you're arguing for semantics when you say that NPC guards attacking you is a consequence not a penalty. If you're corrupted, you can't do anything related to towns that have NPC guards in them. That to me is a penalty. Being at super high risk of being attacked on sight, that's a penalty. You don't have these detrimental circumstances if you're not corrupted.
Apologies for misunderstanding. I thought you were implying that I would be one of those people who would get into that situation.
But if grinding mobs is very hard because you can't defend yourself, then you'd just quit the game because there's no effective way to get rid of corruption.
Again these players leaving is a good thing.
your occassional corrupted leaving isn't a good thing.
Your constant murder hobos leaving is a good thing.
Just that the constant murder hobos aren't affected by this discussion at all, as they'd be killing the greens either way
His whole point is about murder hobos: from page 2.
Use throwaway gear that you put on before you become a corrupted. You won't have materials because you plan ahead to gank people. Don't need to trade or store. Don't need to family summon. You can just exploit your way back out of corruption by dying on purpose.
And I disagree I don't think occasional corrupted will face this. This only applies to jerks greifing greens then killing them selves to drop corruption then doing it again.
No but if a system punishes corrupted players, it doesn't pick and choose based on if they're griefers or not. These more normal players will still really struggle with ridding of corruption the legitimate way. So they'll also use the exploit. They won't use the exploit to grief, but they'd still use it. However, even those normal players still decided to become corrupted. They deserve the consequences of that. AKA having to work to grind it off etc. as a corrupted.
Agree but the more you kill the higher the penalty. So killing one and moving on is not the same as patrolling the node and killing a bunch of them.
Depending on how bad the death penalty turns out to be dying may be a really really bad idea even for just the first kill.
true, killing yourself would give those 300-400% losses, so why would one want to do that. It's not like they would allow players to passively retain those losses offline
Well if those losses are relatively easy to deal with, then a griefer may well do it anyway. If it's xp debt (in that, you can't gain more xp until you've worked off the debt) then maybe a griefer doesn't actually care. Maybe they want to grief as much as possible. They can deal with the consequences (the grind to pay off that debt) later. That's not something that affects them while they're corrupted. They won't be bombarded with players killing them while paying off that debt, unlike how they would be attacked heaps while grinding mobs.
As for the other losses, like gear and materials: I've mentioned it before, but perhaps you didn't see it. It would be super easy for corrupted players to premeditate putting on mediocre gear that they're fine losing, and not carry any good materials. They're not risking anything in their griefing, and when it comes to dying on purpose, they'd be losing nothing of value to them.
I can't believe this argument has been going on for 6 pages all day long, mostly between the same 3-4 people, wut.
You've said the same things over and over and over repeatedly, if no one is understanding each other by now, you're never going to.
The system is fine as is, and anymore complaints should wait until we see how it's going to play out in REALITY instead of THEORY. This is what Alpha and Beta tests are for, refining systems.
"Almost dead yesterday, maybe dead tomorrow, but alive, GLORIOUSLY alive, today."
If they're FORCED to deal with those things, then that's the true deterrent.
No it isn't - at least, no more than the current deterrent.
All penalties in a game can be broken down to a single factor - time.
The penalty for corruption is having to spend an amout of time on getting yourself back to full functionality. The amount of time that takes is something Intrepid have complete control over, and they will have a system that allows them to control the amount of time it takes to work off various penalties should they need to adjust them.
If Intrepid deem the amount of time needed as a penalty for killing one player of equal level while you have a low PK count to be 4 minutes, then that is what they will set it at. Under the current system, that would mean that you would need the amount of experience an average build would be able to grind in 4 minutes in order to work off that penalty.
If Intrepid changed the penalty to anything else, it would still be that same 4 minutes of work to work it off, as that is the amount of time they have deemed appropriate for working off that amount of corruption.
If that were the amount of time Intrepid deemed appropriate for that amount of corruption, they could well say that they want.
All the penalty is, when you look at it, is a debuff of some sort that is cleared when you perform an amount of work. What that debuff is really isn't that important, as long as it is a thing that players want to get rid of. What is important is the amount of time it takes to get rid of it - that time is the penalty, not the debuff.
If they're FORCED to deal with those things, then that's the true deterrent.
All penalties in a game can be broken down to a single factor - time.
The penalty for corruption is having to spend an amout of time on getting yourself back to full functionality. The amount of time that takes is something Intrepid have complete control over, and they will have a system that allows them to control the amount of time it takes to work off various penalties should they need to adjust them.
If Intrepid deem the amount of time needed as a penalty for killing one player of equal level while you have a low PK count to be 4 minutes, then that is what they will set it at. Under the current system, that would mean that you would need the amount of experience an average build would be able to grind in 4 minutes in order to work off that penalty.
If Intrepid changed the penalty to anything else, it would still be that same 4 minutes of work to work it off, as that is the amount of time they have deemed appropriate for working off that amount of corruption.
My understanding is that it would take you about 4 min to completely remove corruption if you grind mobs while corrupted. If you die while corrupted, you get 4x the experience debt, so it'll take you 16 min to grind mobs while not corrupted. Clearly, the best solution is to not die while corrupted.
I think the confusion stems from the fact that the fastest way to get rid of corruption is through dying. While this is true, it also multiplies the exp debt which means that it increases the total amount of time you would need to grind mobs to get back into a normal state. This system is fine, as it discourages players from letting their friends kill them, unless they are desperate and about to get killed by someone else.
I still think that gear shouldn't drop when killing a corrupted though. If they change it to a chance of destroying gear instead, then it wouldn't even matter if their friend or a random killed them. This would necessitate further changes to the system though, because if gear doesn't have a chance to drop, then bounty hunters would need a different incentive for killing corrupted. Any incentive that outweighs the penalties would make it beneficial for a group to kill each other to remove corruption, so it would be necessary to have the total rewards be a fraction of the total lost by a corrupted players in a closed system.
So I would propose that the rewards for a bounty hunter be changed from the chance of collecting dropped gear to an amount of gold as a percentage of the corrupted player's current exp debt upon death and any gear that was destroyed. This also has a positive side effect that the higher level and the more corrupted an individual is, the greater the reward for the bounty hunter. Also, by having the reward be a fraction of the killed player's penalties, it ensures that groups can't exploit this to gain total value by using a become corrupted -> get bounty cycle.
I still think that gear shouldn't drop when killing a corrupted though. If they change it to a chance of destroying gear instead, then it wouldn't even matter if their friend or a random killed them.
The gear loss thing is a fairly small aspect of the over all penalty, honestly.
First, you need multiple corruption kills before you even have a chance of gaining corruption, and even then it starts out as a fairly small chance.
These numbers are all made up, but are about where I would expect things to be. That said, the following is what I am assuming.
An average corruption kill would take 4 minutes to work off.
You need 4 average kills worth of corruption for a percent chance to drop an item to kick in.
The initial chance is 5%.
Most players will clear their corruption off 10 times before getting to the point of having those four kills worth of corruption.
If we then assume that of those nine kills before getting that fourth corruption kill, 3 times it is one kill, 3 times it is two kills and 3 times it is three kills, that means the average player is working off 18 kills worth of corruption, before they are at the point where there is a chance of dropping an item.
Since that chance is only 5%, we can factor in that we need this to happen 20 times on average for each item that drops. This means we are talking 360 corruption kills on average that are worked off for each item that drops.
If we carry on assuming that there is 4 minutes of penalty per corruption kill, that means there is 1440 minutes, or 24 hours worth of working off corruption as a penalty, on average, for each item that is dropped as a penalty.
Now, obviously, I fully admit that I am making several assumptions with the numbers, and there are a few things I am not taking in to account, but they are all about where I expect things to fall.
My understanding is that it would take you about 4 min to completely remove corruption if you grind mobs while corrupted. If you die while corrupted, you get 4x the experience debt, so it'll take you 16 min to grind mobs while not corrupted. Clearly, the best solution is to not die while corrupted.
My assumption is that the penalty for death will be lower than this.
Again this is an assumption, but if we continue with the 4 minute penalty assumption for corruption I would think that the penalty for being killed as a combatant would be about one minute, making the penalty for being killed as a non-combatant 2 minutes. This would put the time a corrupt player would need to spend to work the penalty for being killed while corrupt at 8 minutes.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think is where the disconnect in the conversation is as well.
A lot of people think the death penalty will be nill like in most games and not super punishing. Dying on purpose is a viable answer but not a good one as it could potentially make your character border line unplayable until you work it off. Running around trashing greens picking flowers could make it so you have to spend a week or more grinding to clear the penalty if it got really out of control.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
I think is where the disconnect in the conversation is as well.
A lot of people think the death penalty will be nill like in most games and not super punishing. Dying on purpose is a viable answer but not a good one as it could potentially make your character border line unplayable until you work it off. Running around trashing greens picking flowers could make it so you have to spend a week or more grinding to clear the penalty if it got really out of control.
2-8 minutes might as well be nill.
I'd rather 15-30min for non-combatant/combatant and 4 times that for corrupted.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Agreed
There was a long post some time back(may have even been the old forum's) with people being upset with how harsh death penalties are supposed to be with loss of combat efficiency and how hard it will be to get back to zero.
I am with you death should hurt and hurt a lot.
If you die over and over eventually you need to go farm lower mobs to recoup and get back to zero so you can be effective again.
Should the play style Grasp has proposed be available I say yes. How ever purposely dying to remove corruption will hurt a lot and make it so you can't compete in other stuff.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
I think is where the disconnect in the conversation is as well.
A lot of people think the death penalty will be nill like in most games and not super punishing. Dying on purpose is a viable answer but not a good one as it could potentially make your character border line unplayable until you work it off. Running around trashing greens picking flowers could make it so you have to spend a week or more grinding to clear the penalty if it got really out of control.
2-8 minutes might as well be nill.
I'd rather 15-30min for non-combatant/combatant and 4 times that for corrupted.
This wouldn't be viable if PvE is to offer even the slightest challenge.
It isn't unusual for a PvE raid on a new encounter to clock up 20+ kills in a night. At 15 minutes worth of effort per death, that is 5 hours.
On the other hand, if there isn't PvE content that offers a challenge, I'm fine with a penalty of that length, as I won't be playing.
If they're FORCED to deal with those things, then that's the true deterrent.
No it isn't - at least, no more than the current deterrent.
All penalties in a game can be broken down to a single factor - time.
The penalty for corruption is having to spend an amout of time on getting yourself back to full functionality. The amount of time that takes is something Intrepid have complete control over, and they will have a system that allows them to control the amount of time it takes to work off various penalties should they need to adjust them.
If Intrepid deem the amount of time needed as a penalty for killing one player of equal level while you have a low PK count to be 4 minutes, then that is what they will set it at. Under the current system, that would mean that you would need the amount of experience an average build would be able to grind in 4 minutes in order to work off that penalty.
If Intrepid changed the penalty to anything else, it would still be that same 4 minutes of work to work it off, as that is the amount of time they have deemed appropriate for working off that amount of corruption.
If that were the amount of time Intrepid deemed appropriate for that amount of corruption, they could well say that they want.
All the penalty is, when you look at it, is a debuff of some sort that is cleared when you perform an amount of work. What that debuff is really isn't that important, as long as it is a thing that players want to get rid of. What is important is the amount of time it takes to get rid of it - that time is the penalty, not the debuff.
I think it's way too reductive to claim a penalty is only broken down into time.
Take an example from the real world. I'm given the option to walk on broken glass for 20 minutes, or just walk for 60 minutes. You don't just take how much time one takes into consideration. You also factor in the pain. Is it more painful for you to walk on broken glass for 20 minutes? Or would it be more painful for you to walk for 60 minutes? You might get tired out after the 60 minute walk, but you're actively feeling pain when walking on the broken glass.
There are so many factors that go into the decision a person takes when becoming corrupted. A griefer looks through a completely different lens to a normal person. They think "hmm, how convoluted is it for me to continuously grief? Grinding without threat? That's piss easy. Having to grind while greens can attack me, and I can't go anywhere without having to retreat? Fuck that." To me, if I was a griefer, I'd absolutely prefer to do my grinding as a green. And the system is providing me with that choice. Why should I be able to choose my fate as a griefer? We're putting the power into the griefer's hands.
Also jeez if I can work off my corruption kill in 4 minutes then I can go and kill shitloads of people before it even affects me. I'm a griefer, I'm willing to do much more work than the average person to gank people for fun.
Grinding without threat? That's piss easy. Having to grind while greens can attack me, and I can't go anywhere without having to retreat? Fuck that."
This is a decision based on the amount of time needed. They may consider it faster to grind out the experience debt than to grind out the corruption. That is a valid perspective, but is still a factor of time.
I think is where the disconnect in the conversation is as well.
A lot of people think the death penalty will be nill like in most games and not super punishing. Dying on purpose is a viable answer but not a good one as it could potentially make your character border line unplayable until you work it off. Running around trashing greens picking flowers could make it so you have to spend a week or more grinding to clear the penalty if it got really out of control.
2-8 minutes might as well be nill.
I'd rather 15-30min for non-combatant/combatant and 4 times that for corrupted.
This wouldn't be viable if PvE is to offer even the slightest challenge.
It isn't unusual for a PvE raid on a new encounter to clock up 20+ kills in a night. At 15 minutes worth of effort per death, that is 5 hours.
On the other hand, if there isn't PvE content that offers a challenge, I'm fine with a penalty of that length, as I won't be playing.
@Noaani i'd just significantly increase the exp gain of raid tier monster packs to reduce that time.
That way, you can have larger penaltis in the open world, why minimizing the negative impact on pve attempts
i'd just significantly increase the exp gain of raid tier monster packs to reduce that time.
That way, you can have larger penaltis in the open world, why minimizing the negative impact on pve attempts
You just inflate the amount of experience that raid mobs give like this, for two main reasons.
The first is that experience gain also applies to node experience. People will just run simple raids in order to massively boost the experience gain on the node the raid is in. This would render non-raid content as essentially worthless in regards to leveling nodes.
The second reason is that if raid encounters offer such high amounts of experience, they will be used as a work around for getting rid of corruption and experience debt more quickly, meaning that people like me with easy access to people willing and able to raid at a moments notice will essentially suffer no real penalties.
Grinding without threat? That's piss easy. Having to grind while greens can attack me, and I can't go anywhere without having to retreat? Fuck that."
This is a decision based on the amount of time needed. They may consider it faster to grind out the experience debt than to grind out the corruption. That is a valid perspective, but is still a factor of time.
Grinding without threat? That's piss easy. Having to grind while greens can attack me, and I can't go anywhere without having to retreat? Fuck that."
This is a decision based on the amount of time needed. They may consider it faster to grind out the experience debt than to grind out the corruption. That is a valid perspective, but is still a factor of time.
When I say you factor in pain, that's the real world equivalent. Of course I'm not suggesting there's some pain factor in the game, I'm saying that it's more "painful" (figuratively) and more convoluted to deal with grinding as a corrupted.
How can you say something so black and white? Again, it is reductive to break every single thing into time. Some things take time, but are simple or monotonous. Something else might take the same amount of time, but is much more varied and has a lot of detailed requirements. One might be much more obnoxious to deal with than the other. But if we reduce it simply to time as you would, then there's absolutely no distinction between them. How can you not see this?
Games are developed around the amount of time it takes people to perform an action, ergo we can think about games in terms of the amount of time it takes to perform an action.
Games are developed around the amount of time it takes people to perform an action, ergo we can think about games in terms of the amount of time it takes to perform an action.
Okay... Games can be "black and white" but humans are so incredibly varied. We're not unidimensional.
It all depends on how us humans perceive the task. I literally JUST demonstrated to you that I, a human, perceive things to be more than just "how much time it takes." I am astonished, really. I cannot fathom how you can look at the examples I gave and not think "true, there are more factors in the choices a human makes than just time." And it doesn't matter whether the choice made is in relation to a game or not. You can't just reduce the human experience down into dichotomies because you think it makes things simple.
The average person doesn't just think "oh if I go corrupted, how much time will it take to get out of it?" They also, among other things, think about the implications for their relationships in a community... "I shouldn't kill this person because I'll be exiled." Like??? How can you possibly ignore these things and simply reduce it to time?
Comments
i do agree that people will find better solutions than Dying on purpose.
My personal concept right now looks like this:
If i want someone dead:
I'll get them close to low hp on my main. (Until a bit further than the last HP bar threshhold)
Deal the killing blow with my nearby stationed multiboxed alt.
Then activate bounty hunter on my main and kill the alt.
maximum profit.
Alternatively i'd do with a friend/group member if i'm doing something with them
Can you keep your shitty attitude out of this discussion? I don't give a shit if you disagree with me, but insulting my intelligence is stupidly immature of you.
If the death penalty in terms of XP loss is "that's kind of annoying" there's little stopping me from grinding it out as a green and then going straight back into my killing spree, as Warth said. That is so much better than grinding it out while I'm corrupted. Again, you get to skip all the actual hard parts of corruption by dying on purpose.
For the record, I do think that your making valid points that should be considered during the corruption testing which I am pretty sure is scheduled for Alpha 2.
your occassional corrupted leaving isn't a good thing.
Your constant murder hobos leaving is a good thing.
Just that the constant murder hobos aren't affected by this discussion at all, as they'd be killing the greens either way[/quote]
His whole point is about murder hobos: from page 2.
Use throwaway gear that you put on before you become a corrupted. You won't have materials because you plan ahead to gank people. Don't need to trade or store. Don't need to family summon. You can just exploit your way back out of corruption by dying on purpose.
And I disagree I don't think occasional corrupted will face this. This only applies to jerks greifing greens then killing them selves to drop corruption then doing it again.
No but if a system punishes corrupted players, it doesn't pick and choose based on if they're griefers or not. These more normal players will still really struggle with ridding of corruption the legitimate way. So they'll also use the exploit. They won't use the exploit to grief, but they'd still use it. However, even those normal players still decided to become corrupted. They deserve the consequences of that. AKA having to work to grind it off etc. as a corrupted.
No, that is THE choice. Kill that jerk and take the corruption and punishment it entails or let that jerk go.
The corruption is setup to stop the murder sprees you are worried about. Not the one off "I hate that guy" kill.
Yeah but you're not just affecting the fringes, you're affecting anyone who even dips their toes into corruption... I might even do it once in a while. Am I on the same level as those griefers? [/quote]
No it only effects the fringes not those of us that will wack a green we don't like once in a while.
It doesn't stop the murder sprees though.... Because they can die on purpose, and then build up the xp they lost from dying as a green. Then repeat.
There are lots of things you can do as stated to help remove your corruption. and obviously as stated and discussed before, why risk your best or only gear? if you worked hard enough to have spare gear and want to spend a nice Sunday afternoon ruining some non-combatants lives, well, so be it.
That's the open world pvp with a flagging system
It's not like people are going to plan to go on a killing spree solo against the world and expect to walk out unscathed, bring some friends! Make it a murder party
LOL
Agree but the more you kill the higher the penalty. So killing one and moving on is not the same as patrolling the node and killing a bunch of them.
Depending on how bad the death penalty turns out to be dying may be a really really bad idea even for just the first kill.
Agreed but how long does it take to work those death penalties off and is it really worth your time?
Some trolls that is all they will do until they reach the communities KOS list.
true, killing yourself would give those 300-400% losses, so why would one want to do that. It's not like they would allow players to passively retain those losses offline
Those things that you think are the consequences of corruption - they are not. Those things are there to make it so players want to work off their corruption as fast as they can.
Sure, if you are corrupt, you can't easily go back to town as guards will attack you. The thing is, that shouldn't be an issue as you should be working off your corruption before you go back to town. It is a consequence of corruption, but it is not a penalty of corruption. It is not a penalty because if you do as you should (as is made somewhat obvious by the games systems) you will never be attacked by the guards due to corruption.
It may well be that you would prefer being killed while corrupt and then working off that experience debt via mob grinding (or anything that generates experience, to be honest - you don't need to kill stuff). If that is your preference, cool, have at it, you are still spending that time as a penalty.
I think that they should be the primary reason that corruption is so unappealing. The fundamental reason for the system is to prevent players from overdoing their killing on non-consenting victims. Well if you make it really easy for them to "work off their xp debt" in peace, with no threat from greens, then they've technically avoided the stuff that'd make it otherwise quite punishing. Sure you have to work off your xp debt and it's a "penalty" but it's not a corruption specific penalty. Even a green who dies a lot will have to work off xp in the same way. What makes corruption's penalties unique is they stretch beyond what is applicable to all players. And that's what you get when you put a corrupted player into the world, instead of letting them escape it through death. If they're FORCED to deal with those things, then that's the true deterrent. A green with xp debt can still go and do things that a corrupted cannot. You are stripped of your freedom as a corrupted. But if you can get that freedom back without doing anything punishing that is specific to corruption, then that isn't designed well. I think you're arguing for semantics when you say that NPC guards attacking you is a consequence not a penalty. If you're corrupted, you can't do anything related to towns that have NPC guards in them. That to me is a penalty. Being at super high risk of being attacked on sight, that's a penalty. You don't have these detrimental circumstances if you're not corrupted.
Apologies for misunderstanding. I thought you were implying that I would be one of those people who would get into that situation.
Well if those losses are relatively easy to deal with, then a griefer may well do it anyway. If it's xp debt (in that, you can't gain more xp until you've worked off the debt) then maybe a griefer doesn't actually care. Maybe they want to grief as much as possible. They can deal with the consequences (the grind to pay off that debt) later. That's not something that affects them while they're corrupted. They won't be bombarded with players killing them while paying off that debt, unlike how they would be attacked heaps while grinding mobs.
As for the other losses, like gear and materials: I've mentioned it before, but perhaps you didn't see it. It would be super easy for corrupted players to premeditate putting on mediocre gear that they're fine losing, and not carry any good materials. They're not risking anything in their griefing, and when it comes to dying on purpose, they'd be losing nothing of value to them.
You've said the same things over and over and over repeatedly, if no one is understanding each other by now, you're never going to.
The system is fine as is, and anymore complaints should wait until we see how it's going to play out in REALITY instead of THEORY. This is what Alpha and Beta tests are for, refining systems.
No it isn't - at least, no more than the current deterrent.
All penalties in a game can be broken down to a single factor - time.
The penalty for corruption is having to spend an amout of time on getting yourself back to full functionality. The amount of time that takes is something Intrepid have complete control over, and they will have a system that allows them to control the amount of time it takes to work off various penalties should they need to adjust them.
If Intrepid deem the amount of time needed as a penalty for killing one player of equal level while you have a low PK count to be 4 minutes, then that is what they will set it at. Under the current system, that would mean that you would need the amount of experience an average build would be able to grind in 4 minutes in order to work off that penalty.
If Intrepid changed the penalty to anything else, it would still be that same 4 minutes of work to work it off, as that is the amount of time they have deemed appropriate for working off that amount of corruption.
If that were the amount of time Intrepid deemed appropriate for that amount of corruption, they could well say that they want.
All the penalty is, when you look at it, is a debuff of some sort that is cleared when you perform an amount of work. What that debuff is really isn't that important, as long as it is a thing that players want to get rid of. What is important is the amount of time it takes to get rid of it - that time is the penalty, not the debuff.
My understanding is that it would take you about 4 min to completely remove corruption if you grind mobs while corrupted. If you die while corrupted, you get 4x the experience debt, so it'll take you 16 min to grind mobs while not corrupted. Clearly, the best solution is to not die while corrupted.
I think the confusion stems from the fact that the fastest way to get rid of corruption is through dying. While this is true, it also multiplies the exp debt which means that it increases the total amount of time you would need to grind mobs to get back into a normal state. This system is fine, as it discourages players from letting their friends kill them, unless they are desperate and about to get killed by someone else.
I still think that gear shouldn't drop when killing a corrupted though. If they change it to a chance of destroying gear instead, then it wouldn't even matter if their friend or a random killed them. This would necessitate further changes to the system though, because if gear doesn't have a chance to drop, then bounty hunters would need a different incentive for killing corrupted. Any incentive that outweighs the penalties would make it beneficial for a group to kill each other to remove corruption, so it would be necessary to have the total rewards be a fraction of the total lost by a corrupted players in a closed system.
So I would propose that the rewards for a bounty hunter be changed from the chance of collecting dropped gear to an amount of gold as a percentage of the corrupted player's current exp debt upon death and any gear that was destroyed. This also has a positive side effect that the higher level and the more corrupted an individual is, the greater the reward for the bounty hunter. Also, by having the reward be a fraction of the killed player's penalties, it ensures that groups can't exploit this to gain total value by using a become corrupted -> get bounty cycle.
First, you need multiple corruption kills before you even have a chance of gaining corruption, and even then it starts out as a fairly small chance.
These numbers are all made up, but are about where I would expect things to be. That said, the following is what I am assuming.
An average corruption kill would take 4 minutes to work off.
You need 4 average kills worth of corruption for a percent chance to drop an item to kick in.
The initial chance is 5%.
Most players will clear their corruption off 10 times before getting to the point of having those four kills worth of corruption.
If we then assume that of those nine kills before getting that fourth corruption kill, 3 times it is one kill, 3 times it is two kills and 3 times it is three kills, that means the average player is working off 18 kills worth of corruption, before they are at the point where there is a chance of dropping an item.
Since that chance is only 5%, we can factor in that we need this to happen 20 times on average for each item that drops. This means we are talking 360 corruption kills on average that are worked off for each item that drops.
If we carry on assuming that there is 4 minutes of penalty per corruption kill, that means there is 1440 minutes, or 24 hours worth of working off corruption as a penalty, on average, for each item that is dropped as a penalty.
Now, obviously, I fully admit that I am making several assumptions with the numbers, and there are a few things I am not taking in to account, but they are all about where I expect things to fall. My assumption is that the penalty for death will be lower than this.
Again this is an assumption, but if we continue with the 4 minute penalty assumption for corruption I would think that the penalty for being killed as a combatant would be about one minute, making the penalty for being killed as a non-combatant 2 minutes. This would put the time a corrupt player would need to spend to work the penalty for being killed while corrupt at 8 minutes.
A lot of people think the death penalty will be nill like in most games and not super punishing. Dying on purpose is a viable answer but not a good one as it could potentially make your character border line unplayable until you work it off. Running around trashing greens picking flowers could make it so you have to spend a week or more grinding to clear the penalty if it got really out of control.
2-8 minutes might as well be nill.
I'd rather 15-30min for non-combatant/combatant and 4 times that for corrupted.
There was a long post some time back(may have even been the old forum's) with people being upset with how harsh death penalties are supposed to be with loss of combat efficiency and how hard it will be to get back to zero.
I am with you death should hurt and hurt a lot.
If you die over and over eventually you need to go farm lower mobs to recoup and get back to zero so you can be effective again.
Should the play style Grasp has proposed be available I say yes. How ever purposely dying to remove corruption will hurt a lot and make it so you can't compete in other stuff.
This wouldn't be viable if PvE is to offer even the slightest challenge.
It isn't unusual for a PvE raid on a new encounter to clock up 20+ kills in a night. At 15 minutes worth of effort per death, that is 5 hours.
On the other hand, if there isn't PvE content that offers a challenge, I'm fine with a penalty of that length, as I won't be playing.
I think it's way too reductive to claim a penalty is only broken down into time.
Take an example from the real world. I'm given the option to walk on broken glass for 20 minutes, or just walk for 60 minutes. You don't just take how much time one takes into consideration. You also factor in the pain. Is it more painful for you to walk on broken glass for 20 minutes? Or would it be more painful for you to walk for 60 minutes? You might get tired out after the 60 minute walk, but you're actively feeling pain when walking on the broken glass.
There are so many factors that go into the decision a person takes when becoming corrupted. A griefer looks through a completely different lens to a normal person. They think "hmm, how convoluted is it for me to continuously grief? Grinding without threat? That's piss easy. Having to grind while greens can attack me, and I can't go anywhere without having to retreat? Fuck that." To me, if I was a griefer, I'd absolutely prefer to do my grinding as a green. And the system is providing me with that choice. Why should I be able to choose my fate as a griefer? We're putting the power into the griefer's hands.
Also jeez if I can work off my corruption kill in 4 minutes then I can go and kill shitloads of people before it even affects me. I'm a griefer, I'm willing to do much more work than the average person to gank people for fun.
What is your counter to this?
Everything in an MMO can be broken down in to time.
Not just penalties, but rewards as well. Our characters don't feel pain. If they did, and if it actually meant something, we would be able to fix that pain by spending some time on it. This is a decision based on the amount of time needed. They may consider it faster to grind out the experience debt than to grind out the corruption. That is a valid perspective, but is still a factor of time.
@Noaani i'd just significantly increase the exp gain of raid tier monster packs to reduce that time.
That way, you can have larger penaltis in the open world, why minimizing the negative impact on pve attempts
The first is that experience gain also applies to node experience. People will just run simple raids in order to massively boost the experience gain on the node the raid is in. This would render non-raid content as essentially worthless in regards to leveling nodes.
The second reason is that if raid encounters offer such high amounts of experience, they will be used as a work around for getting rid of corruption and experience debt more quickly, meaning that people like me with easy access to people willing and able to raid at a moments notice will essentially suffer no real penalties.
When I say you factor in pain, that's the real world equivalent. Of course I'm not suggesting there's some pain factor in the game, I'm saying that it's more "painful" (figuratively) and more convoluted to deal with grinding as a corrupted.
How can you say something so black and white? Again, it is reductive to break every single thing into time. Some things take time, but are simple or monotonous. Something else might take the same amount of time, but is much more varied and has a lot of detailed requirements. One might be much more obnoxious to deal with than the other. But if we reduce it simply to time as you would, then there's absolutely no distinction between them. How can you not see this?
Games are developed around the amount of time it takes people to perform an action, ergo we can think about games in terms of the amount of time it takes to perform an action.
Okay... Games can be "black and white" but humans are so incredibly varied. We're not unidimensional.
It all depends on how us humans perceive the task. I literally JUST demonstrated to you that I, a human, perceive things to be more than just "how much time it takes." I am astonished, really. I cannot fathom how you can look at the examples I gave and not think "true, there are more factors in the choices a human makes than just time." And it doesn't matter whether the choice made is in relation to a game or not. You can't just reduce the human experience down into dichotomies because you think it makes things simple.
The average person doesn't just think "oh if I go corrupted, how much time will it take to get out of it?" They also, among other things, think about the implications for their relationships in a community... "I shouldn't kill this person because I'll be exiled." Like??? How can you possibly ignore these things and simply reduce it to time?