MMO is supposed to entertain a spectrum of players, I know that games with meters tend to punish players that do not like meters in any way - that is understandable. The best way for both type of players is to find an ingame control solution about tracking useful information.
The fact is that current approach to "no meter ever" is handicapping itself when the game actually shows you damage numbers.
Also I totally disagree with the opinion that showing information is causing toxicity. Information is power and it is on each player if they want to be toxic with the acquired information. What I am more afraid of is how easy it is going to be to replace people. When you can get a replacement in a few minutes then there will be gatekeeping even without meters
I think the entire argument between DPS/Non DPS meters, is old school vs new school MMO players. Neither are wrong. It is just a different way of playing. With Old School.. failure is expected along the journey while New school, failure is expected, just don't let it happen again lol. Not to that extreme all of the time.. but some of the time.
Replacing... sucks to me. But I completely understand it. Some people just choose classes they either were not meant to play or do not understand the mechanics and timing of, and sometimes they are just not coordinated enough to play the class.
there is part of old school mmo that you can never bring back, times have changed and at least in my opinion people back then were not trying to play in the best way, because they simply had no idea on what is actually achievable and when you show anyone what is possible - the odds are that they will want to try it
there is part of old school mmo that you can never bring back, times have changed and at least in my opinion people back then were not trying to play in the best way, because they simply had no idea on what is actually achievable and when you show anyone what is possible - the odds are that they will want to try it
Meh, there was plenty of theory crafting on rotations and whatnot back then as well.. Skill rotations in PvE were important for cooldown timing... and a different skill rotation was used in PvP because you would hold certain skills for certain situations instead of just spamming them and not having them available when it arose.
These were all things we learned by talking to each other or watching others in the PvP arena. I got help from a Gladiator in a Rival clan after he watched me lose to a guy he did not like very much. His advice helped me win my next couple of fights.
Just like I have mentioned before, I do not have a huge issue with DPS meters. I may even use one if it is not considered cheating.. But in the end, I do not want the DPS meter to push me into a way of playing I do not enjoy.
I do not want to roll a warrior for example.. and be told that a warrior with these buffs and skills can do more ranged DPS than a warrior with my build with sword and I should change.. Obviously I would not change even if it meant getting kicked, but it would basically make me down on my class... (Noanni Disclaimer) I am not saying this will happen.. it was an over the top example to show my meaning.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I do not want the DPS meter to push me into a way of playing I do not enjoy.
I do not want to roll a warrior for example.. and be told that a warrior with these buffs and skills can do more ranged DPS than a warrior with my build with sword and I should change.. Obviously I would not change even if it meant getting kicked.
Exactly.
If I am an Ice Wizard rather than a Repel Wizard, I couldn't care less how much more DPS Repel does than Ice.
If I am a Feral Druid, don't demand I switch to Restoration Druid.
We should be able to figure out how to kill the boss with an Ice Wizard rather than always requiring a Repel Wizard. And we should be able to figure out how to kill the boss with a Feral Druid rather than a Restoration Druid.
I don't play RPGs for DPS. I play RPGs to figure out how we get the roles and specs we have in the party to defeat the challenges. Doesn't matter how long it takes to do so. What matters is that each player enjoys playing the characters they've built. DPS should not have to be the primary determination of defeating a boss.
My favorite scene in Log Horizon builds off that idea - asking each player why they use the abilities they've chosen to use and then working out how to synergize those with the other abilities in the party.
I do not want the DPS meter to push me into a way of playing I do not enjoy.
I do not want to roll a warrior for example.. and be told that a warrior with these buffs and skills can do more ranged DPS than a warrior with my build with sword and I should change.. Obviously I would not change even if it meant getting kicked.
Exactly.
If I am an Ice Wizard rather than a Repel Wizard, I couldn't care less how much more DPS Repel does than Ice.
If I am a Feral Druid, don't demand I switch to Restoration Druid.
We should be able to figure out how to kill the boss with an Ice Wizard rather than always requiring a Repel Wizard. And we should be able to figure out how to kill the boss with a Feral Druid rather than a Restoration Druid.
I don't play RPGs for DPS. I play RPGs to figure out how we get the roles and specs we have in the party to defeat the challenges. Doesn't matter how long it takes to do so. What matters is that each player enjoys playing the characters they've built. DPS should not have to be the primary determination of defeating a boss.
My favorite scene in Log Horizon builds off that idea - asking each player why they use the abilities they've chosen to use and then working out how to synergize those with the other abilities in the party.
The problem you are describing is one of balancing different specs so that they perform at near the same level. Not having combat trackers.
I think people are going to be disappointed who think that banning dps meters is a silver bullet to elitism and scrutiny of class picks.
Elitism exists in every mmo, metrics may even give some people an objective skill based look at players that actually gets past guild leaders entrenched views of favorites. Don't think that's going away, especially in a game with pvp as a primary feature, it will just take on different forms. The real difference in tackling elitism is really how the community and players/guilds respond to it (not whether or not metrics exist).
I'm not even sure it will stop parsing different classes. It will just make it inconvenient. It not too hard though to shift to 'legal' in game measures for testing specs like who can burn a steady healthed mob the quickest. If you know the health, its not hard to figure out the output as a measure of time. The biggest change will be that it prevents informed decisions mid-raid without knowing which mechanics and areas you might be struggling (so get used to a lot of blind finger pointing), and also prevents mid-raid goals for players to strive for imo. But I get people's caution, I just think it won't actually help their intended goals by an outright ban, and may better tackled by social or indirect guidelines.
I do not want the DPS meter to push me into a way of playing I do not enjoy.
I do not want to roll a warrior for example.. and be told that a warrior with these buffs and skills can do more ranged DPS than a warrior with my build with sword and I should change.. Obviously I would not change even if it meant getting kicked.
Exactly.
If I am an Ice Wizard rather than a Repel Wizard, I couldn't care less how much more DPS Repel does than Ice.
If you're a wizard that is doing less DPS than another type of wizard, and my raid of 40 players needs more DPS to progress, if you are not willing to switch to that higher DPS role in order to allow the other 39 people there to progress, what the actual fuck are you even doing there?
Raiding isn't about you. It isn't about me. It doesn't care about the individual. That is what solo content is for.
If you want to be a part of a team and do what that team needs you to do, then you join a raid. If you are not willing to do what the team needs you to do, if you just want to get your rocks off being the build you want to play, then don't join a raid.
This is not a combat tracker issue, this is the mentality of a selfish person wanting to do what they want to do, even if it means dragging down 39 other players vs people that are willing - and even enjoy - working as a part of a team.
I do not want the DPS meter to push me into a way of playing I do not enjoy.
I do not want to roll a warrior for example.. and be told that a warrior with these buffs and skills can do more ranged DPS than a warrior with my build with sword and I should change.. Obviously I would not change even if it meant getting kicked.
Exactly.
If I am an Ice Wizard rather than a Repel Wizard, I couldn't care less how much more DPS Repel does than Ice.
If you're a wizard that is doing less DPS than another type of wizard, and my raid of 40 players needs more DPS to progress, if you are not willing to switch to that higher DPS role in order to allow the other 39 people there to progress, what the actual fuck are you even doing there?
Raiding isn't about you. It isn't about me. It doesn't care about the individual. That is what solo content is for.
If you want to be a part of a team and do what that team needs you to do, then you join a raid. If you are not willing to do what the team needs you to do, if you just want to get your rocks off being the build you want to play, then don't join a raid.
This is not a combat tracker issue, this is the mentality of a selfish person wanting to do what they want to do, even if it means dragging down 39 other players vs people that are willing - and even enjoy - working as a part of a team.
So you must be one of those 1%'ers you are always talking about. Congrats!
If ure lacking that 0.02% of dps from one player and u didnt know that without some sort of dps meter. Would it mean that u just throw in the towel or look for new methods and strategies to deal with the boss?
"You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
I do not want the DPS meter to push me into a way of playing I do not enjoy.
I do not want to roll a warrior for example.. and be told that a warrior with these buffs and skills can do more ranged DPS than a warrior with my build with sword and I should change.. Obviously I would not change even if it meant getting kicked.
Exactly.
If I am an Ice Wizard rather than a Repel Wizard, I couldn't care less how much more DPS Repel does than Ice.
If you're a wizard that is doing less DPS than another type of wizard, and my raid of 40 players needs more DPS to progress, if you are not willing to switch to that higher DPS role in order to allow the other 39 people there to progress, what the actual fuck are you even doing there?
Raiding isn't about you. It isn't about me. It doesn't care about the individual. That is what solo content is for.
If you want to be a part of a team and do what that team needs you to do, then you join a raid. If you are not willing to do what the team needs you to do, if you just want to get your rocks off being the build you want to play, then don't join a raid.
This is not a combat tracker issue, this is the mentality of a selfish person wanting to do what they want to do, even if it means dragging down 39 other players vs people that are willing - and even enjoy - working as a part of a team.
So you must be one of those 1%'ers you are always talking about. Congrats!
I would put myself more in the top 2%, not 1% - and even then, only of PvE players.
If ure lacking that 0.02% of dps from one player and u didnt know that without some sort of dps meter. Would it mean that u just throw in the towel or look for new methods and strategies to deal with the boss?
If it were that low, no one would care.
Thing is, the difference between builds in many games can be as much as 20 - 30%. That is noticeable, and no one claiming to want to be a part of a team that has a specific goal in mind has the right to single handedly prevent that team from reaching their goal and not expect to be removed from said team.
If you don't want to care about your performance, join a guild that doesn't care about your performance. If you join a guild that cares about performance, then do what you can to improve your performance.
Is there some part of that you disagree with?
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
That statement has even more gravity if not a 1%`er!
That statement has even more gravity if not a 1%`er!
Agreed... then next thing you know the 3%er's all the way to the 60%'ers will have this attitude and gatekeeping will have arrived!
There are thousands of casual guilds in WoW. Just because there are guilds or groups that will expect players bring their A game that doesn't mean there won't be more relaxed guilds/groups. My current WoW guild literally runs groups for both types of players.....
Sure pugs can have a hard time getting into groups, but that's more of an issue of the dps to tank/healer ratio issue than it is of combat trackers or ranking systems. Even without these trackers DPS will have a harder time due to supply vs demand. Ranking systems (not in-game combat trackers) just make it easier for better DPS and harder for new/bad dps to get groups. The 8-player group size in AoC will help this (but if only tank/* and cleric/* can tank/heal it will make it harder).
I have never encountered any mmorpg that had all builds within 1% of combat efficiency - not even in 5% of the same numbers. All of them had disparities from 10%-200% if you go literally from the best build to the worst "intentional" build
If you truly dont want to be called out on your flavour of your build then this game shouldnt allow any numbers to be shown - otherwise the sweaty theorycrafters will just take them and sim the living shit out of those builds to finally come out in public with data on which specs are best and which are just pure garbage.
One way to "fix" your need to not be compared to other mage builds when you enjoy being an ice mage is to disable all numbers ingame and even then you will have some ppl timing how fast each build kills a specific "comparison" mob in the world.
The only true way to fix those comparisons is to make near perfect build balance that makes all builds within 1% of power difference.
Allow a DPS meter but make being the best DPS about more than who has the best rotation and twitch. Make sustained top DPS likely to take aggro from the tank. Top DPS will still be good, but a feel for the game will be equally important. It would allow folks to play the build they want assuming they don't gimp themselves. In that scenario, I would rather have the DPS, regardless of build, that knows when to back off rather than the guy who tops the DPS, but dies 30 seconds into the fight because of aggro.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you're a wizard that is doing less DPS than another type of wizard, and my raid of 40 players needs more DPS to progress, if you are not willing to switch to that higher DPS role in order to allow the other 39 people there to progress, what the actual fuck are you even doing there?
Raiding isn't about you. It isn't about me. It doesn't care about the individual. That is what solo content is for.
If you want to be a part of a team and do what that team needs you to do, then you join a raid. If you are not willing to do what the team needs you to do, if you just want to get your rocks off being the build you want to play, then don't join a raid.
This is not a combat tracker issue, this is the mentality of a selfish person wanting to do what they want to do, even if it means dragging down 39 other players vs people that are willing - and even enjoy - working as a part of a team.
I think we both know that I don't give a fuck about what your specific raid does or wants. I no respect for your gameplay playstyle and I would never, ever join any group or raid you are participating in.
Raiding isn't about me. The way I raid and the way you raid are diametrically opposed.
think we know this already.
It's not just about me playing the build I want to play. It's about everyone in my group or raid playing the builds they want. And then figuring out how to make that work. That is true teamwork. DPS is irrelevant.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The problem you are describing is one of balancing different specs so that they perform at near the same level. Not having combat trackers.
Nope. I couldn't care less about balancing different specs so that they perform at near the same level.
What I'm describing is focusing on how to work with the builds each player likes to play and discovering how to overcome the challenges we face. Which is again, why I don't acknowledge the concept of "slacking".
The different specs don't have to all be at the same level. We just need to be able to find a way to defeat the challenges...eventually... with the builds the players in the group like to use.
It's not just about me playing the build I want to play. It's about everyone in my group or raid playing the builds they want. And then figuring out how to make that work. That is true teamwork. DPS is irrelevant.
So you'll be raiding single group content then?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's not just about me playing the build I want to play. It's about everyone in my group or raid playing the builds they want. And then figuring out how to make that work. That is true teamwork. DPS is irrelevant.
It's not just about me playing the build I want to play. It's about everyone in my group or raid playing the builds they want. And then figuring out how to make that work. That is true teamwork. DPS is irrelevant.
So you'll be raiding single group content then?
"Have you stopped beating your wife?"
If you are trying to make a point here, perhaps find a way to do it that isn't discussing domestic violence.
The problem you are describing is one of balancing different specs so that they perform at near the same level. Not having combat trackers.
Nope. I couldn't care less about balancing different specs so that they perform at near the same level.
What I'm describing is focusing on how to work with the builds each player likes to play and discovering how to overcome the challenges we face. Which is again, why I don't acknowledge the concept of "slacking".
The different specs don't have to all be at the same level. We just need to be able to find a way to defeat the challenges...eventually... with the builds the players in the group like to use.
I find this comment silly. There has never been a game that allows us to play EXACTLY what we like while still completing unique and difficult content.
Think of it from another perspective. What kind of clown wants to play a class and then ONLY play one sub class? What a useless player this would be. Why would we (in a competitive PvP game) limit our abilities to learn and be successful? If TANK/TANK is the best tank spec for a specific fight....you bet your ass I will be playing TANK/TANK instead of TANK/SUMMONER which I may find to be more fun. I want my guild to succeed and I will absolutely be able to have a blast even when forced to go with what is best at the time. If every single class and sub class combo was viable, the game would be too easy. It wouldn't matter who we recruited, if they worked on rotations or builds, which skills we customize....it would be a trash game.
Enough of this 1% BS lol. If you play this game while disregarding the best ways to play your class in both pvp/pve, in a group, in a guild, then I GUARANTEE you will be farmed for loot on sight.
The argument is old school verses new school. In old school you would use what you have access to and yes, you would eventually beat the unique and difficult challenges. It was called team spirit, team work and team tactics.
In the new school everyone seems to have to fit societal pressure. I will not be swapping my secondary class if the swap takes multiple hours, days or even a week to be able to switch back. If the swap is a simple swap I may consider it for my guild, but, I won't consider it if I'm forced to swap.
The issues seem counter-intuitive. My build might be better at PvP than PvE but in terms of contestation my build might be better suited to complete the contested raid compared to all the PvE Builds getting slammed hard in the PvP. Its not like a parser will be able to save you from PvP either. It is true there will be some instanced content (mostly story based I believe) but the norm will be contestation. As such, I do not believe Guilds will be foolish enough to force people to play unfamiliar combinations in a contested environment.
The argument is old school verses new school. In old school you would use what you have access to and yes, you would eventually beat the unique and difficult challenges. It was called team spirit, team work and team tactics.
In the new school everyone seems to have to fit societal pressure.
I disagree with this perspective entirely.
The game I have played that most required you to be the build that was needed, and where you were straight up expected to be that build, is the original EQ.
You may not have come across that until later on in your MMO playing experience, but the notion of being the build that is required is as old as builds in MMO's.
And the pressure to be the build you need to be is not coming from the community - it is not societal pressure - rather, it is coming from the content.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's not just about me playing the build I want to play. It's about everyone in my group or raid playing the builds they want. And then figuring out how to make that work. That is true teamwork. DPS is irrelevant.
So you'll be raiding single group content then?
"Have you stopped beating your wife?"
If you are trying to make a point here, perhaps find a way to do it that isn't discussing domestic violence.
Not cool.
I'm not discussing domestic violence at all.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I find this comment silly. There has never been a game that allows us to play EXACTLY what we like while still completing unique and difficult content.
That is a strawman fallacy.
I did not use the word exactly. That is a concept you have added on to what I wrote in an attempt to dismiss what I actually wrote.
Think of it from another perspective. What kind of clown wants to play a class and then ONLY play one sub class? What a useless player this would be.
You realize that in Ashes, we can't just switch sub-classes willy nilly, like we can in, say, WoW.
Most players in Ashes are likely to not be switching sub-classes often - if ever.
For example, I doubt that nagash will be switching from Necromancer to Wild Blade just because the Wild Blade DPS is better.
Why would we (in a competitive PvP game) limit our abilities to learn and be successful? If TANK/TANK is the best tank spec for a specific fight....you bet your ass I will be playing TANK/TANK instead of TANK/SUMMONER which I may find to be more fun. I want my guild to succeed and I will absolutely be able to have a blast even when forced to go with what is best at the time. If every single class and sub class combo was viable, the game would be too easy. It wouldn't matter who we recruited, if they worked on rotations or builds, which skills we customize....it would be a trash game.
Because lots of MMORPG players play more for the RP than for competitive PvP.
And because Ashes is not a competitive PvP game. Ashes is a PvX MMORPG that has as much emphasis on Role-Playing as it does on Massively Multiplayer. Specifically, an emphasis on making the choice of class (primary archetype combined with secondary archetype) meaningful.
If you want to focus on having everyone in your groups and raids only choose classes with the highest DPS, you will be free to do so. But, Ashes is not planning to include DPS meters to support that choice.
Too easy is subjective. In my view, including a DPS meter makes the game too easy.
If you play this game while disregarding the best ways to play your class in both pvp/pve, in a group, in a guild, then I GUARANTEE you will be farmed for loot on sight.
Best ways to play your class is subjective.
In Ashes, you can't really be farmed for loot. You could be farmed for resources - if you have resources on you.
But, that would also come at the cost of Corruption - and, if Corruption works as it's intended - I may very well be willing to go along with that.
If you're a wizard that is doing less DPS than another type of wizard, and my raid of 40 players needs more DPS to progress, if you are not willing to switch to that higher DPS role in order to allow the other 39 people there to progress, what the actual fuck are you even doing there?
Raiding isn't about you. It isn't about me. It doesn't care about the individual. That is what solo content is for.
If you want to be a part of a team and do what that team needs you to do, then you join a raid. If you are not willing to do what the team needs you to do, if you just want to get your rocks off being the build you want to play, then don't join a raid.
This is not a combat tracker issue, this is the mentality of a selfish person wanting to do what they want to do, even if it means dragging down 39 other players vs people that are willing - and even enjoy - working as a part of a team.
I think we both know that I don't give a fuck about what your specific raid does or wants. I no respect for your gameplay playstyle and I would never, ever join any group or raid you are participating in.
Raiding isn't about me. The way I raid and the way you raid are diametrically opposed.
think we know this already.
It's not just about me playing the build I want to play. It's about everyone in my group or raid playing the builds they want. And then figuring out how to make that work. That is true teamwork. DPS is irrelevant.
Cool, so you each group with like minded individuals... that's what we all want.
@Dygz, a combat tracker is still beneficial for your group. You have people who have the respect to not be toxic to each other. That's great! How many wipes is your group willing to go on a boss until people start trying out different specs? How do you even know if those changes help or hurt without a combat tracker? 50 wipes? 100? You certainly don't need to use the combat tracker, but why insist the other group you have no intention of ever playing with can't have it when it's really important to them and it won't hurt your group? (If anything it would help you weed out the try hard toxic players... they can't help flexing on the meters).
Allow a DPS meter but make being the best DPS about more than who has the best rotation and twitch. Make sustained top DPS likely to take aggro from the tank. Top DPS will still be good, but a feel for the game will be equally important. It would allow folks to play the build they want assuming they don't gimp themselves. In that scenario, I would rather have the DPS, regardless of build, that knows when to back off rather than the guy who tops the DPS, but dies 30 seconds into the fight because of aggro.
Not a bad idea, but DPS will need a way to drop aggro as well... I still remember a vanilla WoW boss where all of the dps that had no threat dumps were told to wait until 80% health on the boss before they start DPS... maybe have threat decay over tbr course of the fight so the actions in the last 30 seconds are weighed more than prior actions?
Also, if our did have a mechanic like this you would absolutely need combat trackers so you could see where you are in terms of the threat table of the boss mid-fight.... this was early WoW and it was critical. Otherwise your flying blind and have no idea I'd your doing too much or too little relative to the tank. One more valid reason for combat trackers!!!
Comments
I think the entire argument between DPS/Non DPS meters, is old school vs new school MMO players. Neither are wrong. It is just a different way of playing. With Old School.. failure is expected along the journey while New school, failure is expected, just don't let it happen again lol. Not to that extreme all of the time.. but some of the time.
Replacing... sucks to me. But I completely understand it. Some people just choose classes they either were not meant to play or do not understand the mechanics and timing of, and sometimes they are just not coordinated enough to play the class.
― Plato
Meh, there was plenty of theory crafting on rotations and whatnot back then as well.. Skill rotations in PvE were important for cooldown timing... and a different skill rotation was used in PvP because you would hold certain skills for certain situations instead of just spamming them and not having them available when it arose.
These were all things we learned by talking to each other or watching others in the PvP arena. I got help from a Gladiator in a Rival clan after he watched me lose to a guy he did not like very much. His advice helped me win my next couple of fights.
Just like I have mentioned before, I do not have a huge issue with DPS meters. I may even use one if it is not considered cheating.. But in the end, I do not want the DPS meter to push me into a way of playing I do not enjoy.
I do not want to roll a warrior for example.. and be told that a warrior with these buffs and skills can do more ranged DPS than a warrior with my build with sword and I should change.. Obviously I would not change even if it meant getting kicked, but it would basically make me down on my class... (Noanni Disclaimer) I am not saying this will happen.. it was an over the top example to show my meaning.
If I am an Ice Wizard rather than a Repel Wizard, I couldn't care less how much more DPS Repel does than Ice.
If I am a Feral Druid, don't demand I switch to Restoration Druid.
We should be able to figure out how to kill the boss with an Ice Wizard rather than always requiring a Repel Wizard. And we should be able to figure out how to kill the boss with a Feral Druid rather than a Restoration Druid.
I don't play RPGs for DPS. I play RPGs to figure out how we get the roles and specs we have in the party to defeat the challenges. Doesn't matter how long it takes to do so. What matters is that each player enjoys playing the characters they've built. DPS should not have to be the primary determination of defeating a boss.
My favorite scene in Log Horizon builds off that idea - asking each player why they use the abilities they've chosen to use and then working out how to synergize those with the other abilities in the party.
The problem you are describing is one of balancing different specs so that they perform at near the same level. Not having combat trackers.
Elitism exists in every mmo, metrics may even give some people an objective skill based look at players that actually gets past guild leaders entrenched views of favorites. Don't think that's going away, especially in a game with pvp as a primary feature, it will just take on different forms. The real difference in tackling elitism is really how the community and players/guilds respond to it (not whether or not metrics exist).
I'm not even sure it will stop parsing different classes. It will just make it inconvenient. It not too hard though to shift to 'legal' in game measures for testing specs like who can burn a steady healthed mob the quickest. If you know the health, its not hard to figure out the output as a measure of time. The biggest change will be that it prevents informed decisions mid-raid without knowing which mechanics and areas you might be struggling (so get used to a lot of blind finger pointing), and also prevents mid-raid goals for players to strive for imo. But I get people's caution, I just think it won't actually help their intended goals by an outright ban, and may better tackled by social or indirect guidelines.
Raiding isn't about you. It isn't about me. It doesn't care about the individual. That is what solo content is for.
If you want to be a part of a team and do what that team needs you to do, then you join a raid. If you are not willing to do what the team needs you to do, if you just want to get your rocks off being the build you want to play, then don't join a raid.
This is not a combat tracker issue, this is the mentality of a selfish person wanting to do what they want to do, even if it means dragging down 39 other players vs people that are willing - and even enjoy - working as a part of a team.
So you must be one of those 1%'ers you are always talking about. Congrats!
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
If it were that low, no one would care.
Thing is, the difference between builds in many games can be as much as 20 - 30%. That is noticeable, and no one claiming to want to be a part of a team that has a specific goal in mind has the right to single handedly prevent that team from reaching their goal and not expect to be removed from said team.
If you don't want to care about your performance, join a guild that doesn't care about your performance. If you join a guild that cares about performance, then do what you can to improve your performance.
Is there some part of that you disagree with?
Agreed... then next thing you know the 3%er's all the way to the 60%'ers will have this attitude and gatekeeping will have arrived!
I'm curious as to which statement you are talking about here.
There are thousands of casual guilds in WoW. Just because there are guilds or groups that will expect players bring their A game that doesn't mean there won't be more relaxed guilds/groups. My current WoW guild literally runs groups for both types of players.....
Sure pugs can have a hard time getting into groups, but that's more of an issue of the dps to tank/healer ratio issue than it is of combat trackers or ranking systems. Even without these trackers DPS will have a harder time due to supply vs demand. Ranking systems (not in-game combat trackers) just make it easier for better DPS and harder for new/bad dps to get groups. The 8-player group size in AoC will help this (but if only tank/* and cleric/* can tank/heal it will make it harder).
If you truly dont want to be called out on your flavour of your build then this game shouldnt allow any numbers to be shown - otherwise the sweaty theorycrafters will just take them and sim the living shit out of those builds to finally come out in public with data on which specs are best and which are just pure garbage.
One way to "fix" your need to not be compared to other mage builds when you enjoy being an ice mage is to disable all numbers ingame and even then you will have some ppl timing how fast each build kills a specific "comparison" mob in the world.
The only true way to fix those comparisons is to make near perfect build balance that makes all builds within 1% of power difference.
― Plato
Raiding isn't about me. The way I raid and the way you raid are diametrically opposed.
think we know this already.
It's not just about me playing the build I want to play. It's about everyone in my group or raid playing the builds they want. And then figuring out how to make that work. That is true teamwork. DPS is irrelevant.
What I'm describing is focusing on how to work with the builds each player likes to play and discovering how to overcome the challenges we face. Which is again, why I don't acknowledge the concept of "slacking".
The different specs don't have to all be at the same level. We just need to be able to find a way to defeat the challenges...eventually... with the builds the players in the group like to use.
So you'll be raiding single group content then?
If you are trying to make a point here, perhaps find a way to do it that isn't discussing domestic violence.
Not cool.
I find this comment silly. There has never been a game that allows us to play EXACTLY what we like while still completing unique and difficult content.
Think of it from another perspective. What kind of clown wants to play a class and then ONLY play one sub class? What a useless player this would be. Why would we (in a competitive PvP game) limit our abilities to learn and be successful? If TANK/TANK is the best tank spec for a specific fight....you bet your ass I will be playing TANK/TANK instead of TANK/SUMMONER which I may find to be more fun. I want my guild to succeed and I will absolutely be able to have a blast even when forced to go with what is best at the time. If every single class and sub class combo was viable, the game would be too easy. It wouldn't matter who we recruited, if they worked on rotations or builds, which skills we customize....it would be a trash game.
Enough of this 1% BS lol. If you play this game while disregarding the best ways to play your class in both pvp/pve, in a group, in a guild, then I GUARANTEE you will be farmed for loot on sight.
In the new school everyone seems to have to fit societal pressure. I will not be swapping my secondary class if the swap takes multiple hours, days or even a week to be able to switch back. If the swap is a simple swap I may consider it for my guild, but, I won't consider it if I'm forced to swap.
The issues seem counter-intuitive. My build might be better at PvP than PvE but in terms of contestation my build might be better suited to complete the contested raid compared to all the PvE Builds getting slammed hard in the PvP. Its not like a parser will be able to save you from PvP either. It is true there will be some instanced content (mostly story based I believe) but the norm will be contestation. As such, I do not believe Guilds will be foolish enough to force people to play unfamiliar combinations in a contested environment.
The game I have played that most required you to be the build that was needed, and where you were straight up expected to be that build, is the original EQ.
You may not have come across that until later on in your MMO playing experience, but the notion of being the build that is required is as old as builds in MMO's.
And the pressure to be the build you need to be is not coming from the community - it is not societal pressure - rather, it is coming from the content.
I did not use the word exactly. That is a concept you have added on to what I wrote in an attempt to dismiss what I actually wrote.
You realize that in Ashes, we can't just switch sub-classes willy nilly, like we can in, say, WoW.
Most players in Ashes are likely to not be switching sub-classes often - if ever.
For example, I doubt that nagash will be switching from Necromancer to Wild Blade just because the Wild Blade DPS is better.
Because lots of MMORPG players play more for the RP than for competitive PvP.
And because Ashes is not a competitive PvP game. Ashes is a PvX MMORPG that has as much emphasis on Role-Playing as it does on Massively Multiplayer. Specifically, an emphasis on making the choice of class (primary archetype combined with secondary archetype) meaningful.
If you want to focus on having everyone in your groups and raids only choose classes with the highest DPS, you will be free to do so. But, Ashes is not planning to include DPS meters to support that choice.
Too easy is subjective. In my view, including a DPS meter makes the game too easy.
Best ways to play your class is subjective.
In Ashes, you can't really be farmed for loot. You could be farmed for resources - if you have resources on you.
But, that would also come at the cost of Corruption - and, if Corruption works as it's intended - I may very well be willing to go along with that.
Cool, so you each group with like minded individuals... that's what we all want.
@Dygz, a combat tracker is still beneficial for your group. You have people who have the respect to not be toxic to each other. That's great! How many wipes is your group willing to go on a boss until people start trying out different specs? How do you even know if those changes help or hurt without a combat tracker? 50 wipes? 100? You certainly don't need to use the combat tracker, but why insist the other group you have no intention of ever playing with can't have it when it's really important to them and it won't hurt your group? (If anything it would help you weed out the try hard toxic players... they can't help flexing on the meters).
Not a bad idea, but DPS will need a way to drop aggro as well... I still remember a vanilla WoW boss where all of the dps that had no threat dumps were told to wait until 80% health on the boss before they start DPS... maybe have threat decay over tbr course of the fight so the actions in the last 30 seconds are weighed more than prior actions?
Also, if our did have a mechanic like this you would absolutely need combat trackers so you could see where you are in terms of the threat table of the boss mid-fight.... this was early WoW and it was critical. Otherwise your flying blind and have no idea I'd your doing too much or too little relative to the tank. One more valid reason for combat trackers!!!