maybe not a dps meter but what about this...

What do you guys think about this idea that I just got...? There is a lot of people who do not want dps meters and there is a lot of people who want to improve skill rotation, right? What if we had a trainig zone were there are those Training Dummy which tells you how´s doing dps doing compare to other players? if ya want to see how you are actually doing so you must go to the training zone and check it out, these Trainig Dummy could copilate all the info from others players and let you know if your dps is low/medium or high (just lets us knows if very low,low, high,medium.etc)

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akabear

That statement has even more gravity if not a 1%`er!

Recluse74

akabear wrote: »

That statement has even more gravity if not a 1%`er!

Agreed... then next thing you know the 3%er's all the way to the 60%'ers will have this attitude and gatekeeping will have arrived!

Noaani

akabear wrote: »

That statement has even more gravity if not a 1%`er!

I'm curious as to which statement you are talking about here.

V4Viola

The day I come to this forum and don't see a thread on the front page about dps meters will be a day I breathe a little easier.

Saedu

Recluse74 wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

That statement has even more gravity if not a 1%`er!

Agreed... then next thing you know the 3%er's all the way to the 60%'ers will have this attitude and gatekeeping will have arrived!

There are thousands of casual guilds in WoW. Just because there are guilds or groups that will expect players bring their A game that doesn't mean there won't be more relaxed guilds/groups. My current WoW guild literally runs groups for both types of players.....

Sure pugs can have a hard time getting into groups, but that's more of an issue of the dps to tank/healer ratio issue than it is of combat trackers or ranking systems. Even without these trackers DPS will have a harder time due to supply vs demand. Ranking systems (not in-game combat trackers) just make it easier for better DPS and harder for new/bad dps to get groups. The 8-player group size in AoC will help this (but if only tank/* and cleric/* can tank/heal it will make it harder).

Tragnar

I have never encountered any mmorpg that had all builds within 1% of combat efficiency - not even in 5% of the same numbers. All of them had disparities from 10%-200% if you go literally from the best build to the worst "intentional" build

If you truly dont want to be called out on your flavour of your build then this game shouldnt allow any numbers to be shown - otherwise the sweaty theorycrafters will just take them and sim the living shit out of those builds to finally come out in public with data on which specs are best and which are just pure garbage.

One way to "fix" your need to not be compared to other mage builds when you enjoy being an ice mage is to disable all numbers ingame and even then you will have some ppl timing how fast each build kills a specific "comparison" mob in the world.

The only true way to fix those comparisons is to make near perfect build balance that makes all builds within 1% of power difference.

BYUcougfan

Allow a DPS meter but make being the best DPS about more than who has the best rotation and twitch. Make sustained top DPS likely to take aggro from the tank. Top DPS will still be good, but a feel for the game will be equally important. It would allow folks to play the build they want assuming they don't gimp themselves. In that scenario, I would rather have the DPS, regardless of build, that knows when to back off rather than the guy who tops the DPS, but dies 30 seconds into the fight because of aggro.

Dygz

Noaani wrote: »

If you're a wizard that is doing less DPS than another type of wizard, and my raid of 40 players needs more DPS to progress, if you are not willing to switch to that higher DPS role in order to allow the other 39 people there to progress, what the actual fuck are you even doing there?

Raiding isn't about you. It isn't about me. It doesn't care about the individual. That is what solo content is for.

If you want to be a part of a team and do what that team needs you to do, then you join a raid. If you are not willing to do what the team needs you to do, if you just want to get your rocks off being the build you want to play, then don't join a raid.

This is not a combat tracker issue, this is the mentality of a selfish person wanting to do what they want to do, even if it means dragging down 39 other players vs people that are willing - and even enjoy - working as a part of a team.

I think we both know that I don't give a fuck about what your specific raid does or wants. I no respect for your gameplay playstyle and I would never, ever join any group or raid you are participating in.
Raiding isn't about me. The way I raid and the way you raid are diametrically opposed.
think we know this already.

It's not just about me playing the build I want to play. It's about everyone in my group or raid playing the builds they want. And then figuring out how to make that work. That is true teamwork. DPS is irrelevant.

Dygz

Saedu wrote: »

The problem you are describing is one of balancing different specs so that they perform at near the same level. Not having combat trackers.

Nope. I couldn't care less about balancing different specs so that they perform at near the same level.
What I'm describing is focusing on how to work with the builds each player likes to play and discovering how to overcome the challenges we face. Which is again, why I don't acknowledge the concept of "slacking".
The different specs don't have to all be at the same level. We just need to be able to find a way to defeat the challenges...eventually... with the builds the players in the group like to use.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

It's not just about me playing the build I want to play. It's about everyone in my group or raid playing the builds they want. And then figuring out how to make that work. That is true teamwork. DPS is irrelevant.

So you'll be raiding single group content then?

Dygz

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

It's not just about me playing the build I want to play. It's about everyone in my group or raid playing the builds they want. And then figuring out how to make that work. That is true teamwork. DPS is irrelevant.

So you'll be raiding single group content then?

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

It's not just about me playing the build I want to play. It's about everyone in my group or raid playing the builds they want. And then figuring out how to make that work. That is true teamwork. DPS is irrelevant.

So you'll be raiding single group content then?

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

If you are trying to make a point here, perhaps find a way to do it that isn't discussing domestic violence.

Not cool.

Khronus

Dygz wrote: »

Saedu wrote: »

The problem you are describing is one of balancing different specs so that they perform at near the same level. Not having combat trackers.

Nope. I couldn't care less about balancing different specs so that they perform at near the same level.
What I'm describing is focusing on how to work with the builds each player likes to play and discovering how to overcome the challenges we face. Which is again, why I don't acknowledge the concept of "slacking".
The different specs don't have to all be at the same level. We just need to be able to find a way to defeat the challenges...eventually... with the builds the players in the group like to use.

I find this comment silly. There has never been a game that allows us to play EXACTLY what we like while still completing unique and difficult content.

Think of it from another perspective. What kind of clown wants to play a class and then ONLY play one sub class? What a useless player this would be. Why would we (in a competitive PvP game) limit our abilities to learn and be successful? If TANK/TANK is the best tank spec for a specific fight....you bet your ass I will be playing TANK/TANK instead of TANK/SUMMONER which I may find to be more fun. I want my guild to succeed and I will absolutely be able to have a blast even when forced to go with what is best at the time. If every single class and sub class combo was viable, the game would be too easy. It wouldn't matter who we recruited, if they worked on rotations or builds, which skills we customize....it would be a trash game.

Enough of this 1% BS lol. If you play this game while disregarding the best ways to play your class in both pvp/pve, in a group, in a guild, then I GUARANTEE you will be farmed for loot on sight.

Songcaller

The argument is old school verses new school. In old school you would use what you have access to and yes, you would eventually beat the unique and difficult challenges. It was called team spirit, team work and team tactics.

In the new school everyone seems to have to fit societal pressure. I will not be swapping my secondary class if the swap takes multiple hours, days or even a week to be able to switch back. If the swap is a simple swap I may consider it for my guild, but, I won't consider it if I'm forced to swap.

The issues seem counter-intuitive. My build might be better at PvP than PvE but in terms of contestation my build might be better suited to complete the contested raid compared to all the PvE Builds getting slammed hard in the PvP. Its not like a parser will be able to save you from PvP either. It is true there will be some instanced content (mostly story based I believe) but the norm will be contestation. As such, I do not believe Guilds will be foolish enough to force people to play unfamiliar combinations in a contested environment.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

The argument is old school verses new school. In old school you would use what you have access to and yes, you would eventually beat the unique and difficult challenges. It was called team spirit, team work and team tactics.

In the new school everyone seems to have to fit societal pressure.

I disagree with this perspective entirely.

The game I have played that most required you to be the build that was needed, and where you were straight up expected to be that build, is the original EQ.

You may not have come across that until later on in your MMO playing experience, but the notion of being the build that is required is as old as builds in MMO's.

And the pressure to be the build you need to be is not coming from the community - it is not societal pressure - rather, it is coming from the content.

Dygz

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

It's not just about me playing the build I want to play. It's about everyone in my group or raid playing the builds they want. And then figuring out how to make that work. That is true teamwork. DPS is irrelevant.

So you'll be raiding single group content then?

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

If you are trying to make a point here, perhaps find a way to do it that isn't discussing domestic violence.

Not cool.

I'm not discussing domestic violence at all.

Dygz

Khronus wrote: »

I find this comment silly. There has never been a game that allows us to play EXACTLY what we like while still completing unique and difficult content.

That is a strawman fallacy.
I did not use the word exactly. That is a concept you have added on to what I wrote in an attempt to dismiss what I actually wrote.

Khronus wrote: »

Think of it from another perspective. What kind of clown wants to play a class and then ONLY play one sub class? What a useless player this would be.

You realize that in Ashes, we can't just switch sub-classes willy nilly, like we can in, say, WoW.
Most players in Ashes are likely to not be switching sub-classes often - if ever.
For example, I doubt that nagash will be switching from Necromancer to Wild Blade just because the Wild Blade DPS is better.

Khronus wrote: »

Why would we (in a competitive PvP game) limit our abilities to learn and be successful? If TANK/TANK is the best tank spec for a specific fight....you bet your ass I will be playing TANK/TANK instead of TANK/SUMMONER which I may find to be more fun. I want my guild to succeed and I will absolutely be able to have a blast even when forced to go with what is best at the time. If every single class and sub class combo was viable, the game would be too easy. It wouldn't matter who we recruited, if they worked on rotations or builds, which skills we customize....it would be a trash game.

Because lots of MMORPG players play more for the RP than for competitive PvP.
And because Ashes is not a competitive PvP game. Ashes is a PvX MMORPG that has as much emphasis on Role-Playing as it does on Massively Multiplayer. Specifically, an emphasis on making the choice of class (primary archetype combined with secondary archetype) meaningful.
If you want to focus on having everyone in your groups and raids only choose classes with the highest DPS, you will be free to do so. But, Ashes is not planning to include DPS meters to support that choice.
Too easy is subjective. In my view, including a DPS meter makes the game too easy.

Khronus wrote: »

If you play this game while disregarding the best ways to play your class in both pvp/pve, in a group, in a guild, then I GUARANTEE you will be farmed for loot on sight.

Best ways to play your class is subjective.
In Ashes, you can't really be farmed for loot. You could be farmed for resources - if you have resources on you.
But, that would also come at the cost of Corruption - and, if Corruption works as it's intended - I may very well be willing to go along with that.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

Dygz wrote: »

I'm not discussing domestic violence at all.

Your generation is weird.

Saedu

Dygz wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

If you're a wizard that is doing less DPS than another type of wizard, and my raid of 40 players needs more DPS to progress, if you are not willing to switch to that higher DPS role in order to allow the other 39 people there to progress, what the actual fuck are you even doing there?

Raiding isn't about you. It isn't about me. It doesn't care about the individual. That is what solo content is for.

If you want to be a part of a team and do what that team needs you to do, then you join a raid. If you are not willing to do what the team needs you to do, if you just want to get your rocks off being the build you want to play, then don't join a raid.

This is not a combat tracker issue, this is the mentality of a selfish person wanting to do what they want to do, even if it means dragging down 39 other players vs people that are willing - and even enjoy - working as a part of a team.

I think we both know that I don't give a fuck about what your specific raid does or wants. I no respect for your gameplay playstyle and I would never, ever join any group or raid you are participating in.
Raiding isn't about me. The way I raid and the way you raid are diametrically opposed.
think we know this already.

It's not just about me playing the build I want to play. It's about everyone in my group or raid playing the builds they want. And then figuring out how to make that work. That is true teamwork. DPS is irrelevant.

Cool, so you each group with like minded individuals... that's what we all want.

@Dygz, a combat tracker is still beneficial for your group. You have people who have the respect to not be toxic to each other. That's great! How many wipes is your group willing to go on a boss until people start trying out different specs? How do you even know if those changes help or hurt without a combat tracker? 50 wipes? 100? You certainly don't need to use the combat tracker, but why insist the other group you have no intention of ever playing with can't have it when it's really important to them and it won't hurt your group? (If anything it would help you weed out the try hard toxic players... they can't help flexing on the meters).

Saedu

BYUcougfan wrote: »

Allow a DPS meter but make being the best DPS about more than who has the best rotation and twitch. Make sustained top DPS likely to take aggro from the tank. Top DPS will still be good, but a feel for the game will be equally important. It would allow folks to play the build they want assuming they don't gimp themselves. In that scenario, I would rather have the DPS, regardless of build, that knows when to back off rather than the guy who tops the DPS, but dies 30 seconds into the fight because of aggro.

Not a bad idea, but DPS will need a way to drop aggro as well... I still remember a vanilla WoW boss where all of the dps that had no threat dumps were told to wait until 80% health on the boss before they start DPS... maybe have threat decay over tbr course of the fight so the actions in the last 30 seconds are weighed more than prior actions?

Also, if our did have a mechanic like this you would absolutely need combat trackers so you could see where you are in terms of the threat table of the boss mid-fight.... this was early WoW and it was critical. Otherwise your flying blind and have no idea I'd your doing too much or too little relative to the tank. One more valid reason for combat trackers!!!

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