@Dygz, a combat tracker is still beneficial for your group.
A combat tracker isn't necessary for my groups. And it isn't worth the overall toxicity combat trackers inevitably bring to the overall community.
How many wipes is your group willing to go on a boss until people start trying out different specs?
My groups don't particularly care about the number of wipes it takes to defeat a challenge.
Individuals will choose to try different strategies whenever they realize what they have been doing isn't effective. Those different strategies don't necessarily entail trying different specs. More specifically, successful strategies may not entail each individual player maximizing their own DPS.
How do you even know if those changes help or hurt without a combat tracker?
That is like asking how people read books before Kindle was invented.
I assure you that I don't need a combat tracker to determine if my combat strategy isn't working well.
I also never need to use a combat tracker to calculate DPS in order to devise a winning strategy.
You are simply overly dependent on using combat trackers.
It's as if you can't do math unless you have a calculator.
50 wipes? 100? You certainly don't need to use the combat tracker, but why insist the other group you have no intention of ever playing with can't have it when it's really important to them and it won't hurt your group? (If anything it would help you weed out the try hard toxic players... they can't help flexing on the meters).
I don't think I'm insisting on anything.
The devs have decided that combat trackers are detrimental to there intended gameplay and plan not to include them. I support that decision because in my experience that inexorably leads to toxicity in groups, in general.
That's it. You, of course, are free to disagree.
Dygz, a combat tracker is still beneficial for your group.
A combat tracker isn't necessary for my groups. And it isn't worth the overall toxicity combat trackers inevitably bring to the overall community.
You still don't get it.
The combat tracker isn't the root cause of the toxicity you are seeing.
You are.
If you are in a group and are not performing well, others present have every right to be pissed at you. They have every right to boot you from the group, and there is no need for them to appologise for doing so. People don't need a combat tracker to see people that are as far behind as you are in terms of acceptable group performance.
If you join a group in an MMO, you should be putting your best foot forward.
You don't invite your friends out for a nice meal and wear the same shitty clothes you wear around the garden, you put in some effort because others are involved.
You need to stop trying to blame others for your shortcomings.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What you mean is I still don't agree with you. Which we have known for years now.
The combat tracker isn't the root cause of the toxicity you are seeing.
The combat tracker is the root cause of the toxicity I'm seeing. Which is why the devs are not including a combat tracker in the game design.
If you are in a group and are not performing well, others present have every right to be pissed at you. They have every right to boot you from the group, and there is no need for them to apologise for doing so. People don't need a combat tracker to see people that are as far behind as you are in terms of acceptable group performance.
Uh. No. Others in a group being pissed that someone is not performing well is inherently toxic.
People in the group can work together to devise strategies to help improve individual performance and to help improve overall performance without relying on combat trackers. Performing well isn't solely about an individuals DPS or even solely about combat skills.
Especially in Ashes gameplay. In Ashes, group and raid roles aren't just about combat.
No one has been talking about apologies in this thread so I don't know why you mention it, but you typically mention a bunch of irrelevant drivel, so I shouldn't be surprised.
If you join a group in an MMO, you should be putting your best foot forward.
A person putting their best foot forward doesn't necessarily mean they are performing well.
Here, we are specifically talking about an MMORPG.
For you, uber-efficient combat trumps RP.
For me, RP - especially people building and playing the characters they like to play - trumps uber-efficient combat.
So, we do not agree on what putting one's best foot forward entails. Which is why we would never play in the same group. Again, we've known this for years. I don't know why you would say something like, "You still don't get it." That is a given. We are never going to agree on that.
If we were discussing an MMOFPS rather than an MMORPG, I might agree with you in regard to combat trackers and combat efficiency.
But, I wouldn't be playing an MMOFPS.
You don't invite your friends out for a nice meal and wear the same shitty clothes you wear around the garden, you put in some effort because others are involved.
Ahhh. What clothes people choose to wear has absolutely no impact on enjoying a nice meal with friends.
Your worldview is toxic af.
Ahhh. What clothes people choose to wear has absolutely no impact on enjoying a nice meal with friends.
It really does.
A good meal is about good food, good atmosphere, good friends, good conversation. If you have been at home around your garden all day and you wear those same cloths out for a nice meal with friends, that will ruin (at least in part) that meal for everyone else present.
You may not know this, but then you are the kind of person that can't make friends in MMO's and so watches streamers in order to get a sense of community.
You claim my world view is toxic - my world view is basic consideration of others. That is what you consider toxic, considering people other than yourself.
When I am saying your output is low, even after attempting to help you get better, and so you shouldn't be on the raid, I am not considering you, I am considering the other 39 people present on the raid. Basic consideration of others says that those 39 people that are all pulling their weight deserve to have a 40th person that is also pulling their weight.
If you had basic consideration for others as a thing you even think about, you would agree on this very basic point.
I do not want the DPS meter to push me into a way of playing I do not enjoy.
I do not want to roll a warrior for example.. and be told that a warrior with these buffs and skills can do more ranged DPS than a warrior with my build with sword and I should change.. Obviously I would not change even if it meant getting kicked.
Exactly.
If I am an Ice Wizard rather than a Repel Wizard, I couldn't care less how much more DPS Repel does than Ice.
If I am a Feral Druid, don't demand I switch to Restoration Druid.
We should be able to figure out how to kill the boss with an Ice Wizard rather than always requiring a Repel Wizard. And we should be able to figure out how to kill the boss with a Feral Druid rather than a Restoration Druid.
I don't play RPGs for DPS. I play RPGs to figure out how we get the roles and specs we have in the party to defeat the challenges. Doesn't matter how long it takes to do so. What matters is that each player enjoys playing the characters they've built. DPS should not have to be the primary determination of defeating a boss.
My favorite scene in Log Horizon builds off that idea - asking each player why they use the abilities they've chosen to use and then working out how to synergize those with the other abilities in the party.
Well that's not a problem with dps meter it combat tracker, it's a problem with you not joining the right raid it guild.
In my casual guild in wow classic we clear all the content easley, but we do not really care about speed clears. And that's why we for example allow retribution paladins, feral druids, Shadow priests. As long as you give you all in that specc then you can be that specc.
The thing with social mmorpgs is that you need to find a group of people you like to play with, and from that you will be able to play the way you want to play.
In mmos like retail wow where everything is "raid finder" and "group finder" you don't need to socialize or find friends to play with.
So the problem you are talking about is a problem in a mmo with instant group finders, and have nothing to do with dps meters.
Very important to remember that the decision of no meters is coming just from 1 person - it is his right to make that decision, but so is mine to disagree with him in this point.
Also when you raid as 40 people you are most likely not real friends with everyone in there, so when you see that there are 2 guys that for no explicit reason are way behind other people and your raid takes way more time then scheduled so you either do not finish it or finish way later the point when the raid should have ended. You just cannot help it, but to go through these questions -
Does he know ho to play?
Does he need help to learn how to play?
Does he run decent spec or some RP flavor build?
Is he watching netflix?
Is he raiding on 2 characters at the same time?
Is he capable of doing the most simple tasks?
Is he a teamplayer?
If all above is answered with a "no" then in my experience all of the guilds i've been part of would bench that player
Edit:
Yes the order of the questions is correct, because I rather raid with a person that is barely able to perform simple tasks (usually such ppl are the "irons" of competetive games), but he is eager and willing to listen to feedback on what to do and how we can help him do well in the game - rather than a player that is hardstuck on his roleplaying and refusing accepting help and refusing helping other raiders
Edit2:
I sincerely hate being part of a raid team where everyone is looking only after himself and where personal wants outweigh what is good for the raid
Allow a DPS meter but make being the best DPS about more than who has the best rotation and twitch. Make sustained top DPS likely to take aggro from the tank. Top DPS will still be good, but a feel for the game will be equally important. It would allow folks to play the build they want assuming they don't gimp themselves. In that scenario, I would rather have the DPS, regardless of build, that knows when to back off rather than the guy who tops the DPS, but dies 30 seconds into the fight because of aggro.
Not a bad idea, but DPS will need a way to drop aggro as well... I still remember a vanilla WoW boss where all of the dps that had no threat dumps were told to wait until 80% health on the boss before they start DPS... maybe have threat decay over tbr course of the fight so the actions in the last 30 seconds are weighed more than prior actions?
Also, if our did have a mechanic like this you would absolutely need combat trackers so you could see where you are in terms of the threat table of the boss mid-fight.... this was early WoW and it was critical. Otherwise your flying blind and have no idea I'd your doing too much or too little relative to the tank. One more valid reason for combat trackers!!!
To each his own, but "flying blind" could be part of the fun. Having the feel, skill, or experience to intuit when it is ok to go all out and when it is time to back off would add another dimension to what it means to be a good DPS.
@BYUcougfan
You make a good point.
I feel as though part of the miscommunication comes from disagreement about what level of combat should be intuition driven vs conscious rationalization.
Thing is, the difference between builds in many games can be as much as 20 - 30%. That is noticeable, and no one claiming to want to be a part of a team that has a specific goal in mind has the right to single handedly prevent that team from reaching their goal and not expect to be removed from said team.
If you don't want to care about your performance, join a guild that doesn't care about your performance. If you join a guild that cares about performance, then do what you can to improve your performance.
Is there some part of that you disagree with?
Difference that high would would be intentional game design and the lack of dps should then show as increased skill versatility. I suspect the difference could go as high as 10% without players being able to spot the difference without clear data.
When you have undisputed data from reliable source, even minor differences become large and instead of finding new strategies you will end up prioritizing specific builds and archetypes to beat the game. Thus taking the top priority from strategy to robust skill builds.
This is why Im against ACTs, when u want to play the hardest content u lose most or all of ur personal freedom of preference and make it harder for devs to balance the game. That minor difference matters only a little when we believe it exists and a lot when we know it exists.
Having a raiding scene revolving around innovative strategies and offering more freedom of choice would also teach players to think outside the box. We could even have guilds that prefer to have some decent imaginative players over max damage.
Big downside here is finding skilled players to raids, but Stevens vision is to get players socially interactive again.
So if they want the players to communicate more and want as many viable builds as possible. Doesnt it make sense to not include trackers in their game?
"You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
Allow a DPS meter but make being the best DPS about more than who has the best rotation and twitch. Make sustained top DPS likely to take aggro from the tank. Top DPS will still be good, but a feel for the game will be equally important. It would allow folks to play the build they want assuming they don't gimp themselves. In that scenario, I would rather have the DPS, regardless of build, that knows when to back off rather than the guy who tops the DPS, but dies 30 seconds into the fight because of aggro.
Not a bad idea, but DPS will need a way to drop aggro as well... I still remember a vanilla WoW boss where all of the dps that had no threat dumps were told to wait until 80% health on the boss before they start DPS... maybe have threat decay over tbr course of the fight so the actions in the last 30 seconds are weighed more than prior actions?
Also, if our did have a mechanic like this you would absolutely need combat trackers so you could see where you are in terms of the threat table of the boss mid-fight.... this was early WoW and it was critical. Otherwise your flying blind and have no idea I'd your doing too much or too little relative to the tank. One more valid reason for combat trackers!!!
No combat trackers in Lineage 2, and we just had to figure out how not to draw aggro off the tank. I got yelled at a few times in group for pulling aggro off the tank because I did not know better.. afterwards I asked what the best way to stop this was, and I was just told.. do a rotation of skills... do 5 seconds of atuto attack... then do another rotation of skills.. if still pulling aggro, extend your auto attack times. It was a process.. at one point 5 seconds of auto attack worked, then others I would have to extend it to 8 seconds... No harm no foul .. just learning.
This is why Im against ACTs, when u want to play the hardest content u lose most or all of ur personal freedom of preference and make it harder for devs to balance the game.
When you make the free decision to try and kill the hardest content in the game, a part if that decision is in the fact that you will do what is needed.
Without combat trackers, guilds will require people be the specific builds they deem to be the best - or at least be builds they deem to be acceptable.
With no way to objectively assess builds, guilds will want more control over what builds people use, not less.
There is no way I am going to accept someone on one of my raids with a build I have not cleared, unless I can objectively assess the build they have - in which case they can take what ever build they want as long as the output is acceptable.
This is why Im against ACTs, when u want to play the hardest content u lose most or all of ur personal freedom of preference and make it harder for devs to balance the game.
When you make the free decision to try and kill the hardest content in the game, a part if that decision is in the fact that you will do what is needed.
Without combat trackers, guilds will require people be the specific builds they deem to be the best - or at least be builds they deem to be acceptable.
With no way to objectively assess builds, guilds will want more control over what builds people use, not less.
There is no way I am going to accept someone on one of my raids with a build I have not cleared, unless I can objectively assess the build they have - in which case they can take what ever build they want as long as the output is acceptable.
So you are a gatekeeper.. Sometimes you come off as a person who I believe could be responsible with one, and others you come off as the person I am arguing about.
When in game, on a raid, I do what I can to get my guild through content as fast and as well as we can. If the fastest way to get through a piece of content is to take along a specific build, I will ensure we have that specific build.
The people that join my guild all know this to be the case, and they accept that there may be times they need to run a specific build, so that the whole guild can progress through content faster. However, should they ever be called to run a specific build, they know that they are doing this for many other people that have run specific builds to assist them in progressing, and so are more than happy to return the favor.
It seems to me that too many people look at a raid focused guild in MMO's as like a bowling team - each person in the raid doing their own thing independently of the others, with the total scores added up at the end.
This is not how it works.
It is more like a football team (take your pick of any of 6 sports around the world that are called "football" in various regions). Everyone present works towards a singular goal rather than everyone working towards their own goal. Either the entire team scores, or no one scores.
Now, again, I have no idea what it is you mean by gatekeeper. My job is to get my guild through content, my guilds job is to assist each other in getting through content, and that is why we are all in that guild. If someone was not happy with that, then they would be in a guild other than my guild.
When in game, on a raid, I do what I can to get my guild through content as fast and as well as we can. If the fastest way to get through a piece of content is to take along a specific build, I will ensure we have that specific build.
The people that join my guild all know this to be the case, and they accept that there may be times they need to run a specific build, so that the whole guild can progress through content faster. However, should they ever be called to run a specific build, they know that they are doing this for many other people that have run specific builds to assist them in progressing, and so are more than happy to return the favor.
It seems to me that too many people look at a raid focused guild in MMO's as like a bowling team - each person in the raid doing their own thing independently of the others, with the total scores added up at the end.
This is not how it works.
It is more like a football team (take your pick of any of 6 sports around the world that are called "football" in various regions). Everyone present works towards a singular goal rather than everyone working towards their own goal. Either the entire team scores, or no one scores.
Now, again, I have no idea what it is you mean by gatekeeper. My job is to get my guild through content, my guilds job is to assist each other in getting through content, and that is why we are all in that guild. If someone was not happy with that, then they would be in a guild other than my guild.
Gatekeeping... you let in who you want in... and keep out the people you want out.
Since you have never played Lineage 2, I will let you think what you want to think. Good luck in game.. and watch out for PvE teleport ganks... take care.
Oh.. Gatekeeping.. you let in who you want in, and keep out who you want out.. you know.. gatekeeping, like you said.
Gatekeeping... you let in who you want in... and keep out the people you want out.
I let people in to my guild that fit in with what my guild is - but that is the point of a guild, a gathering of likeminded players.
I am not gatekeeping content - anyone that wants to run a piece of content is welcome to do so. In fact, this is why I argue for as much raid level instanced content as possible. The easiest way to gatekeep content is for that content to be limited and completing it yourself - regardless of a need to complete said content, but purely to prevent others from accessing it. With instanced content, this is not possible, making gatekeeping (as I understand you are talking about it) virtually impossible.
Gatekeeping... you let in who you want in... and keep out the people you want out.
I let people in to my guild that fit in with what my guild is - but that is the point of a guild, a gathering of likeminded players.
I am not gatekeeping content - anyone that wants to run a piece of content is welcome to do so. In fact, this is why I argue for as much raid level instanced content as possible. The easiest way to gatekeep content is for that content to be limited and completing it yourself - regardless of a need to complete said content, but purely to prevent others from accessing it. With instanced content, this is not possible, making gatekeeping (as I understand you are talking about it) virtually impossible.
Instanced? While I understand it is in the game, what do you need more of it for? Plenty of Open world dungeons to farm and raid.
The easiest way to gatekeep content is for that content to be limited and completing it yourself - regardless of a need to complete said content, but purely to prevent others from accessing it. With instanced content, this is not possible, making gatekeeping (as I understand you are talking about it) virtually impossible.
This is why I am a fan of instanced content.
Instanced content is content that literally no one can gatekeep. As soon as there is a boss that is open world, me and my guild will kill it every spawn, preventing anyone else from getting a kill on it.
Call that gatekeeping if you like. I call it competitiveness.
While this is what I will do if the game allows it, I personally think it is better for the game if there is a good amount of content (specifically not all, not even most) that doesn't allow for this kind of thing.
The easiest way to gatekeep content is for that content to be limited and completing it yourself - regardless of a need to complete said content, but purely to prevent others from accessing it. With instanced content, this is not possible, making gatekeeping (as I understand you are talking about it) virtually impossible.
This is why I am a fan of instanced content.
Instanced content is content that literally no one can gatekeep. As soon as there is a boss that is open world, me and my guild will kill it every spawn, preventing anyone else from getting a kill on it.
Call that gatekeeping if you like. I call it competitiveness.
While this is what I will do if the game allows it, I personally think it is better for the game if there is a good amount of content (specifically not all, not even most) that doesn't allow for this kind of thing.
This is where open world PvP comes in.. Good luck trying to gatekeep open world bosses when 4 other guilds show up to do the same thing, if not more.
Look, you can argue till your are blue in the face, and so can I. We are not going to change each other's minds. Might as well let the topic die.. Unless you truly think Steven will listen to you , then argue more I guess.
The easiest way to gatekeep content is for that content to be limited and completing it yourself - regardless of a need to complete said content, but purely to prevent others from accessing it. With instanced content, this is not possible, making gatekeeping (as I understand you are talking about it) virtually impossible.
This is why I am a fan of instanced content.
Instanced content is content that literally no one can gatekeep. As soon as there is a boss that is open world, me and my guild will kill it every spawn, preventing anyone else from getting a kill on it.
Call that gatekeeping if you like. I call it competitiveness.
While this is what I will do if the game allows it, I personally think it is better for the game if there is a good amount of content (specifically not all, not even most) that doesn't allow for this kind of thing.
This is where open world PvP comes in.. Good luck trying to gatekeep open world bosses when 4 other guilds show up to do the same thing, if not more.
Look, you can argue till your are blue in the face, and so can I. We are not going to change each other's minds. Might as well let the topic die.. Unless you truly think Steven will listen to you , then argue more I guess.
I've lost track of why you are even accusing me of gatekeeping. It never made sense based on either how I would want a game developed, or how I play MMO's.
Unless you consider running a top end guild to be gatekeeping.
I don't care if Steven listens to me, I don't expect him to though. The next time I expect him to put any more thought in to a combat tracker with Ashes is when I send him a screenshot of one working. At that point, he will need to decide how much money Intrepid are willing to spend to keep them out of the game, and what content they could use that money to add to the game instead of engaging in a cat-and-mouse game that he will not win.
I think the Pros and Cons for having a meter and not having a meter are actually different.
For example:
Meter Pros:
* See who is under performing
* Easier to play optimally
Meter Cons:
* More toxicity
* More gate keeping
* Forced to play a subclass you didn't want to by a group
Does not equal:
No Meter Cons:
* Cannot see who is under performing
* Harder to play optimally
No meter Pros:
* Less toxicity
* Less gate keeping
* Play your preferred subclass
Seeing who is under performing can be a Pro or can be a Con. But the consequences for either system are not actually equal because it is really a perspective problem.
If there is a perspective problem on a binary system then I agree with the OP with having a 3rd option. Even if may be incorrect data from a training dummy, compromise should be the best way to go.
I think the Pros and Cons for having a meter and not having a meter are actually different.
For example:
Meter Pros:
* See who is under performing
* Easier to play optimally
Meter Cons:
* More toxicity
* More gate keeping
* Forced to play a subclass you didn't want to by a group
Does not equal:
No Meter Cons:
* Cannot see who is under performing
* Harder to play optimally
No meter Pros:
* Less toxicity
* Less gate keeping
* Play your preferred subclass
Seeing who is under performing can be a Pro or can be a Con. But the consequences for either system are not actually equal because it is really a perspective problem.
If there is a perspective problem on a binary system then I agree with the OP with having a 3rd option. Even if may be incorrect data from a training dummy, compromise should be the best way to go.
You are missing a few points here.
Ashes will have a meta, regardless of.combat trackers. If you are joining a group or a raid, you will be expected to conform to that meta.
This means gatekeeping will be the same regardless of the presence or absence of a meter, and it means you will have a list of specific builds you will be expected to play.
Without a meter, if someone comes along with a build I have not seen, I am unlikely to take them if the content poses a challenge. Why would I risk the success of my group or raid on that?
With a meter, I can take them and assess the build, and decide if that build would hold us back or not.
Ashes will have a meta, regardless of.combat trackers. If you are joining a group or a raid, you will be expected to conform to that meta.
This means gatekeeping will be the same regardless of the presence or absence of a meter, and it means you will have a list of specific builds you will be expected to play.
Without a meter, if someone comes along with a build I have not seen, I am unlikely to take them if the content poses a challenge. Why would I risk the success of my group or raid on that?
With a meter, I can take them and assess the build, and decide if that build would hold us back or not.
So assess it from the training dummy, I already agreed that there should be a meter.
Ashes will have a meta, regardless of.combat trackers. If you are joining a group or a raid, you will be expected to conform to that meta.
This means gatekeeping will be the same regardless of the presence or absence of a meter, and it means you will have a list of specific builds you will be expected to play.
Without a meter, if someone comes along with a build I have not seen, I am unlikely to take them if the content poses a challenge. Why would I risk the success of my group or raid on that?
With a meter, I can take them and assess the build, and decide if that build would hold us back or not.
So assess it from the training dummy, I already agreed that there should be a meter.
I'm just pointing out that any list of pros and cons for a combat tracker cant include any notion of being able to play the class you want to play, as players will always demand conforming to the games meta.
I'm just pointing out that any list of pros and cons for a combat tracker cant include any notion of being able to play the class you want to play, as players will always demand conforming to the games meta.
You're absolutely right about that, I shouldn't have added it to my example list. The real takeaway should be that there are actually 2 separate Pros and Cons lists that do not mirror each other.
I'm just pointing out that any list of pros and cons for a combat tracker cant include any notion of being able to play the class you want to play, as players will always demand conforming to the games meta.
You're absolutely right about that, I shouldn't have added it to my example list. The real takeaway should be that there are actually 2 separate Pros and Cons lists that do not mirror each other.
What do you think about OP's compromise?
Training dummy dps is not sufficient as it does not factor in the variables of the actual encounter. I think personal or guild only combat trackers could be a viable compromise.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
MMO is supposed to entertain a spectrum of players, I know that games with meters tend to punish players that do not like meters in any way - that is understandable. The best way for both type of players is to find an ingame control solution about tracking useful information.
The fact is that current approach to "no meter ever" is handicapping itself when the game actually shows you damage numbers.
Also I totally disagree with the opinion that showing information is causing toxicity. Information is power and it is on each player if they want to be toxic with the acquired information. What I am more afraid of is how easy it is going to be to replace people. When you can get a replacement in a few minutes then there will be gatekeeping even without meters
I think the entire argument between DPS/Non DPS meters, is old school vs new school MMO players. Neither are wrong. It is just a different way of playing. With Old School.. failure is expected along the journey while New school, failure is expected, just don't let it happen again lol. Not to that extreme all of the time.. but some of the time.
Replacing... sucks to me. But I completely understand it. Some people just choose classes they either were not meant to play or do not understand the mechanics and timing of, and sometimes they are just not coordinated enough to play the class.
Pretty close to same thinking here. I`m old school train of thought.
Learn to play the game first, not some tracker that takes away need for experience, lessons learned, intuition and the community working together to workout what works for their group in isloation.
To me a trackers deplete and devalue accomplishments and end up a catapulting players to end game at the forfeit of the journey.
Ranking and ability not earned, just blueprinted and with an accelerated position at end game, a faster dead game as objectives too easily overcome and an ordinary game.
While I am not against the idea of training dummy's (I did suggest them a few years back), they aren't going to stop guilds from running combat trackers.
Since they wont stop the development or use of trackers, I dont see them as any kind of a compromise, but rather as an added feature that some people will make use of.
The oldschool vs new mmo style of play is the "crux" of the dps meter topic and today are totally different circumstances.
"Back then" you maybe just had dmg value ingame and no meters etc. Some people were smart enough to find the easiest way of doing the most damage with their builds. That is good and all, but the same isnt possible today if you allow showing damage numbers. Theorycrafting today is in different universe than what it was "back in the old school mmo".
If damage numbers stay in the game then theorycrafters will have all they need to create near perfect sims for assessing player builds that will eventually make into the meta. I know what I am talking about, because I've created several "partial" sims that were about finding out breakpoints for certain buff/debuff procs in a raid environment and thus giving an exact value to otherwise unquantifiable variables.
However you can stay hopefull, if only a few thousand players play this game then it is very likely that there won't be a lot of theorycrafters to do that, but if the game is succesful then inevitably the amount of theorycrafters will be quite big
What if we do it old school, like IRL? And get people to fight the same monster to see where their skill lies? The whole idea of not adding DPS meters is to get people to talk and interact with them, it's meant to be a very social game. So you wanna hire new members? Take them to a field and fight monsters, talk and discuss strategies and see if they can improve after giving advice, since this will also tells you if they can follow instructions.
Comments
My groups don't particularly care about the number of wipes it takes to defeat a challenge.
Individuals will choose to try different strategies whenever they realize what they have been doing isn't effective. Those different strategies don't necessarily entail trying different specs. More specifically, successful strategies may not entail each individual player maximizing their own DPS.
That is like asking how people read books before Kindle was invented.
I assure you that I don't need a combat tracker to determine if my combat strategy isn't working well.
I also never need to use a combat tracker to calculate DPS in order to devise a winning strategy.
You are simply overly dependent on using combat trackers.
It's as if you can't do math unless you have a calculator.
I don't think I'm insisting on anything.
The devs have decided that combat trackers are detrimental to there intended gameplay and plan not to include them. I support that decision because in my experience that inexorably leads to toxicity in groups, in general.
That's it. You, of course, are free to disagree.
The combat tracker isn't the root cause of the toxicity you are seeing.
You are.
If you are in a group and are not performing well, others present have every right to be pissed at you. They have every right to boot you from the group, and there is no need for them to appologise for doing so. People don't need a combat tracker to see people that are as far behind as you are in terms of acceptable group performance.
If you join a group in an MMO, you should be putting your best foot forward.
You don't invite your friends out for a nice meal and wear the same shitty clothes you wear around the garden, you put in some effort because others are involved.
You need to stop trying to blame others for your shortcomings.
The combat tracker is the root cause of the toxicity I'm seeing. Which is why the devs are not including a combat tracker in the game design.
Uh. No. Others in a group being pissed that someone is not performing well is inherently toxic.
People in the group can work together to devise strategies to help improve individual performance and to help improve overall performance without relying on combat trackers. Performing well isn't solely about an individuals DPS or even solely about combat skills.
Especially in Ashes gameplay. In Ashes, group and raid roles aren't just about combat.
No one has been talking about apologies in this thread so I don't know why you mention it, but you typically mention a bunch of irrelevant drivel, so I shouldn't be surprised.
A person putting their best foot forward doesn't necessarily mean they are performing well.
Here, we are specifically talking about an MMORPG.
For you, uber-efficient combat trumps RP.
For me, RP - especially people building and playing the characters they like to play - trumps uber-efficient combat.
So, we do not agree on what putting one's best foot forward entails. Which is why we would never play in the same group. Again, we've known this for years. I don't know why you would say something like, "You still don't get it." That is a given. We are never going to agree on that.
If we were discussing an MMOFPS rather than an MMORPG, I might agree with you in regard to combat trackers and combat efficiency.
But, I wouldn't be playing an MMOFPS.
Ahhh. What clothes people choose to wear has absolutely no impact on enjoying a nice meal with friends.
Your worldview is toxic af.
A good meal is about good food, good atmosphere, good friends, good conversation. If you have been at home around your garden all day and you wear those same cloths out for a nice meal with friends, that will ruin (at least in part) that meal for everyone else present.
You may not know this, but then you are the kind of person that can't make friends in MMO's and so watches streamers in order to get a sense of community.
You claim my world view is toxic - my world view is basic consideration of others. That is what you consider toxic, considering people other than yourself.
When I am saying your output is low, even after attempting to help you get better, and so you shouldn't be on the raid, I am not considering you, I am considering the other 39 people present on the raid. Basic consideration of others says that those 39 people that are all pulling their weight deserve to have a 40th person that is also pulling their weight.
If you had basic consideration for others as a thing you even think about, you would agree on this very basic point.
Well that's not a problem with dps meter it combat tracker, it's a problem with you not joining the right raid it guild.
In my casual guild in wow classic we clear all the content easley, but we do not really care about speed clears. And that's why we for example allow retribution paladins, feral druids, Shadow priests. As long as you give you all in that specc then you can be that specc.
The thing with social mmorpgs is that you need to find a group of people you like to play with, and from that you will be able to play the way you want to play.
In mmos like retail wow where everything is "raid finder" and "group finder" you don't need to socialize or find friends to play with.
So the problem you are talking about is a problem in a mmo with instant group finders, and have nothing to do with dps meters.
Also when you raid as 40 people you are most likely not real friends with everyone in there, so when you see that there are 2 guys that for no explicit reason are way behind other people and your raid takes way more time then scheduled so you either do not finish it or finish way later the point when the raid should have ended. You just cannot help it, but to go through these questions -
Does he know ho to play?
Does he need help to learn how to play?
Does he run decent spec or some RP flavor build?
Is he watching netflix?
Is he raiding on 2 characters at the same time?
Is he capable of doing the most simple tasks?
Is he a teamplayer?
If all above is answered with a "no" then in my experience all of the guilds i've been part of would bench that player
Edit:
Yes the order of the questions is correct, because I rather raid with a person that is barely able to perform simple tasks (usually such ppl are the "irons" of competetive games), but he is eager and willing to listen to feedback on what to do and how we can help him do well in the game - rather than a player that is hardstuck on his roleplaying and refusing accepting help and refusing helping other raiders
Edit2:
I sincerely hate being part of a raid team where everyone is looking only after himself and where personal wants outweigh what is good for the raid
― Plato
To each his own, but "flying blind" could be part of the fun. Having the feel, skill, or experience to intuit when it is ok to go all out and when it is time to back off would add another dimension to what it means to be a good DPS.
You make a good point.
I feel as though part of the miscommunication comes from disagreement about what level of combat should be intuition driven vs conscious rationalization.
Difference that high would would be intentional game design and the lack of dps should then show as increased skill versatility. I suspect the difference could go as high as 10% without players being able to spot the difference without clear data.
When you have undisputed data from reliable source, even minor differences become large and instead of finding new strategies you will end up prioritizing specific builds and archetypes to beat the game. Thus taking the top priority from strategy to robust skill builds.
This is why Im against ACTs, when u want to play the hardest content u lose most or all of ur personal freedom of preference and make it harder for devs to balance the game. That minor difference matters only a little when we believe it exists and a lot when we know it exists.
Having a raiding scene revolving around innovative strategies and offering more freedom of choice would also teach players to think outside the box. We could even have guilds that prefer to have some decent imaginative players over max damage.
Big downside here is finding skilled players to raids, but Stevens vision is to get players socially interactive again.
So if they want the players to communicate more and want as many viable builds as possible. Doesnt it make sense to not include trackers in their game?
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
No combat trackers in Lineage 2, and we just had to figure out how not to draw aggro off the tank. I got yelled at a few times in group for pulling aggro off the tank because I did not know better.. afterwards I asked what the best way to stop this was, and I was just told.. do a rotation of skills... do 5 seconds of atuto attack... then do another rotation of skills.. if still pulling aggro, extend your auto attack times. It was a process.. at one point 5 seconds of auto attack worked, then others I would have to extend it to 8 seconds... No harm no foul .. just learning.
When you make the free decision to try and kill the hardest content in the game, a part if that decision is in the fact that you will do what is needed.
Without combat trackers, guilds will require people be the specific builds they deem to be the best - or at least be builds they deem to be acceptable.
With no way to objectively assess builds, guilds will want more control over what builds people use, not less.
There is no way I am going to accept someone on one of my raids with a build I have not cleared, unless I can objectively assess the build they have - in which case they can take what ever build they want as long as the output is acceptable.
So you are a gatekeeper.. Sometimes you come off as a person who I believe could be responsible with one, and others you come off as the person I am arguing about.
I do not understand what you are saying here.
When in game, on a raid, I do what I can to get my guild through content as fast and as well as we can. If the fastest way to get through a piece of content is to take along a specific build, I will ensure we have that specific build.
The people that join my guild all know this to be the case, and they accept that there may be times they need to run a specific build, so that the whole guild can progress through content faster. However, should they ever be called to run a specific build, they know that they are doing this for many other people that have run specific builds to assist them in progressing, and so are more than happy to return the favor.
It seems to me that too many people look at a raid focused guild in MMO's as like a bowling team - each person in the raid doing their own thing independently of the others, with the total scores added up at the end.
This is not how it works.
It is more like a football team (take your pick of any of 6 sports around the world that are called "football" in various regions). Everyone present works towards a singular goal rather than everyone working towards their own goal. Either the entire team scores, or no one scores.
Now, again, I have no idea what it is you mean by gatekeeper. My job is to get my guild through content, my guilds job is to assist each other in getting through content, and that is why we are all in that guild. If someone was not happy with that, then they would be in a guild other than my guild.
Gatekeeping... you let in who you want in... and keep out the people you want out.
Since you have never played Lineage 2, I will let you think what you want to think. Good luck in game.. and watch out for PvE teleport ganks... take care.
Oh.. Gatekeeping.. you let in who you want in, and keep out who you want out.. you know.. gatekeeping, like you said.
I am not gatekeeping content - anyone that wants to run a piece of content is welcome to do so. In fact, this is why I argue for as much raid level instanced content as possible. The easiest way to gatekeep content is for that content to be limited and completing it yourself - regardless of a need to complete said content, but purely to prevent others from accessing it. With instanced content, this is not possible, making gatekeeping (as I understand you are talking about it) virtually impossible.
Instanced? While I understand it is in the game, what do you need more of it for? Plenty of Open world dungeons to farm and raid.
Instanced content is content that literally no one can gatekeep. As soon as there is a boss that is open world, me and my guild will kill it every spawn, preventing anyone else from getting a kill on it.
Call that gatekeeping if you like. I call it competitiveness.
While this is what I will do if the game allows it, I personally think it is better for the game if there is a good amount of content (specifically not all, not even most) that doesn't allow for this kind of thing.
This is where open world PvP comes in.. Good luck trying to gatekeep open world bosses when 4 other guilds show up to do the same thing, if not more.
Look, you can argue till your are blue in the face, and so can I. We are not going to change each other's minds. Might as well let the topic die.. Unless you truly think Steven will listen to you , then argue more I guess.
Unless you consider running a top end guild to be gatekeeping.
I don't care if Steven listens to me, I don't expect him to though. The next time I expect him to put any more thought in to a combat tracker with Ashes is when I send him a screenshot of one working. At that point, he will need to decide how much money Intrepid are willing to spend to keep them out of the game, and what content they could use that money to add to the game instead of engaging in a cat-and-mouse game that he will not win.
For example:
Meter Pros:
* See who is under performing
* Easier to play optimally
Meter Cons:
* More toxicity
* More gate keeping
* Forced to play a subclass you didn't want to by a group
Does not equal:
No Meter Cons:
* Cannot see who is under performing
* Harder to play optimally
No meter Pros:
* Less toxicity
* Less gate keeping
* Play your preferred subclass
Seeing who is under performing can be a Pro or can be a Con. But the consequences for either system are not actually equal because it is really a perspective problem.
If there is a perspective problem on a binary system then I agree with the OP with having a 3rd option. Even if may be incorrect data from a training dummy, compromise should be the best way to go.
You are missing a few points here.
Ashes will have a meta, regardless of.combat trackers. If you are joining a group or a raid, you will be expected to conform to that meta.
This means gatekeeping will be the same regardless of the presence or absence of a meter, and it means you will have a list of specific builds you will be expected to play.
Without a meter, if someone comes along with a build I have not seen, I am unlikely to take them if the content poses a challenge. Why would I risk the success of my group or raid on that?
With a meter, I can take them and assess the build, and decide if that build would hold us back or not.
So assess it from the training dummy, I already agreed that there should be a meter.
I'm just pointing out that any list of pros and cons for a combat tracker cant include any notion of being able to play the class you want to play, as players will always demand conforming to the games meta.
You're absolutely right about that, I shouldn't have added it to my example list. The real takeaway should be that there are actually 2 separate Pros and Cons lists that do not mirror each other.
What do you think about OP's compromise?
Training dummy dps is not sufficient as it does not factor in the variables of the actual encounter. I think personal or guild only combat trackers could be a viable compromise.
Learn to play the game first, not some tracker that takes away need for experience, lessons learned, intuition and the community working together to workout what works for their group in isloation.
To me a trackers deplete and devalue accomplishments and end up a catapulting players to end game at the forfeit of the journey.
Ranking and ability not earned, just blueprinted and with an accelerated position at end game, a faster dead game as objectives too easily overcome and an ordinary game.
Since they wont stop the development or use of trackers, I dont see them as any kind of a compromise, but rather as an added feature that some people will make use of.
"Back then" you maybe just had dmg value ingame and no meters etc. Some people were smart enough to find the easiest way of doing the most damage with their builds. That is good and all, but the same isnt possible today if you allow showing damage numbers. Theorycrafting today is in different universe than what it was "back in the old school mmo".
If damage numbers stay in the game then theorycrafters will have all they need to create near perfect sims for assessing player builds that will eventually make into the meta. I know what I am talking about, because I've created several "partial" sims that were about finding out breakpoints for certain buff/debuff procs in a raid environment and thus giving an exact value to otherwise unquantifiable variables.
However you can stay hopefull, if only a few thousand players play this game then it is very likely that there won't be a lot of theorycrafters to do that, but if the game is succesful then inevitably the amount of theorycrafters will be quite big
― Plato