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maybe not a dps meter but what about this...

cmaster01cmaster01 Member
edited April 2021 in General Discussion
What do you guys think about this idea that I just got...? There is a lot of people who do not want dps meters and there is a lot of people who want to improve skill rotation, right? What if we had a trainig zone were there are those Training Dummy which tells you how´s doing dps doing compare to other players? if ya want to see how you are actually doing so you must go to the training zone and check it out, these Trainig Dummy could copilate all the info from others players and let you know if your dps is low/medium or high (just lets us knows if very low,low, high,medium.etc)
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Comments

  • BricktopBricktop Member
    edited April 2021
    cmaster01 wrote: »
    What do you guys think about this idea that I just got...? There is a lot of people who do not want dps meters and there is a lot of people who want to improve skill rotation, right? What if we had a trainig zone were there are those Training Dummy which tells you how´s doing dps doing compare to other players? if ya want to see how you are actually doing so you must go to the training zone and check it out, these Trainig Dummy could copilate all the info from others players and let you know if your dps is low/medium or high

    Doesn't really tackle the problem that people argue over and discuss which is that "meters help guilds and raid leaders in real time during/right after a boss attempt make informed decisions about certain things". Some people think it's an absolute necessity for a good game, some people think it's a form of handholding and/or a tool to lead to gatekeeping.

    E: Damage you do to a training dummy in town running your rotation perfectly is extremely different than damage you do to a boss with mechanics that could kill you that you need to be dodging while listening for calls from your raid leader and whatever else.

    Personally it doesn't bother me either way.
  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I have a few methods I am planning on implementing with my guild to help with rotations and to maximize dps. There are ways to do this without a dps meter addon, people just need to figure it out. Obviously these methods will change depending on whatever information we get as the game gets closer to launch. At the end of the day, target dummies and dps meters should not be added into the game IMO.
  • SaeduSaedu Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 2021
    It isn't just the damage potential. it's also knowing whos doing the dispells, interrupts, whos taking the most damage (and is it from avoidable damage, or unavoidable? i.e. who's failing on the mechanics?).

    Training dummy only = wrong data (as well stated by Bricktop above)
    No combat trackers = no data (ignorance)
    full combat trackers = informed group/raid/leader

    I'm not sure what's worse, the wrong data or no data. I'd probably still take the wrong data over no data in this case because its at least helping me practice my rotation in a isolated environment. But it isn't really going to help me know how to improve the efforts of my team in real pvp/pve.

    Regardless of which of these three options happen, there will be toxicity in the game. That's just how some players handle losing.

    -Good leaders will use the data available to help encourage the team in a constructive/positive way. They will also use it to make the tough calls to sit people from raids at times, but this will be fair/data driven. Good leaders without data will make more mistakes as they are not as well informed.
    -Bad leaders will use the data to point their toxicity towards the poor souls who have the lowest performance. Bad leaders without data will still be toxic, but probably around the wrong stuff/people.

    -Good players will use the data to evaluate their own performance and see what they are doing right/wrong and how they might improve. They may also use it with their peers to help collaborate/compare builds and rotations.
    -Bad players will use the data to find fault in others, brag, etc. Without data they will just walk around with a massive ego anyways or blame everyone else for failures.

    I'd rather be informed than ignorant myself. I'd rather have an informed group than an ignorant one as well. I won't tolerate the toxicity within my group (and that's on me to manage this expectation with those who I lead).
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    As Bricktop implied, some players will be smart enough to come up with a reasonable estimate. Other players will figure out ways to come up with more precise numbers, particularly if they took some advanced statistics classes in grad school!

    The best players will end up doing the best, right? Cream always rises to the top, after all. But, um, so does scum.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Khronus wrote: »
    I have a few methods I am planning on implementing with my guild to help with rotations and to maximize dps. There are ways to do this without a dps meter addon, people just need to figure it out. Obviously these methods will change depending on whatever information we get as the game gets closer to launch. At the end of the day, target dummies and dps meters should not be added into the game IMO.

    I'm curious, if it turns out that I have access to a combat tracker as functional as ACT, and this gives me and my guild the obvious advantage that it will give, would your opinion on this matter change?

    If your answer is "I hope people that use it get banned", I would point out to you that all it is doing is rearranging information that Intrepid is giving us all anyway, and there is neither a need nor a way to ban an account t for making use of the information Intrepid give us.
  • I hope they never implement or allow DPS meters.

    Raid leaders and min maxers that need them are smart people, they can figure something out.

    We don't need the toxicity and gatekeeping these trackers would inevitably bring.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Mandrake wrote: »
    Raid leaders and min maxers that need them are smart people, they can figure something out.
    We already have, a combat tracker.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Am I in a time loop? Did we not have this thread very recently?
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Many times. It always ends up with a few people saying the same things... :)
  • MarzzoMarzzo Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    With DPS meters we get toxicity.
    Without DPS meters, we get lazy people and toxicity.

    If we end up not having DPS meters, replayability will suffer, because dps/hps is really the only thing making raidiers come back to the same raid they beat 50 times.

    Also, if we dont have dps meters, we will have a shitton of guilds dying because they cant beat a boss. And they dont know why. But little do they know billy has been afk during fights these last months
  • MandrakeMandrake Member
    edited April 2021
    Marzzo wrote: »
    With DPS meters we get toxicity.
    Without DPS meters, we get lazy people and toxicity.

    Toxicity is one thing, gatekeeping is another. No "dps meters" lessens toxicity by a lot. Next.
    Marzzo wrote: »
    If we end up not having DPS meters, replayability will suffer, because dps/hps is really the only thing making raidiers come back to the same raid they beat 50 times.

    Please. It's loot and collectables that keep people returning. Look at any other MMO. Once the raiders get their achievements and gear, they move on to the next tier. Who the hell does raids just to "top their numbers", lmao.
    Marzzo wrote: »
    Also, if we dont have dps meters, we will have a shitton of guilds dying because they cant beat a boss. And they dont know why. But little do they know billy has been afk during fights these last months

    Guilds don't die because they "can't beat a boss", unless they are all overly dramatic teenagers, I guess. They die because of drama, because they can't handle their immaturity. A DPS meter won't fix or prevent that, or make these players able to magically beat the boss.

    And if you need a dps meter to tell Billy has been AFK for months... there's something wrong with you, and/or you need a better guild.


  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Marzzo wrote: »
    If we end up not having DPS meters, replayability will suffer, because dps/hps is really the only thing making raidiers come back to the same raid they beat 50 times.

    You make great points, but I don't think anyone is going to be farming parses in open world PvP.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Yours truly has been quite torn on the issue of DPS meters.

    One one hand, how are we to know how effective our DPS output is, without some base measurement to let us know? I guess there are certain tests players can come up with in-game to solo, but that will take time to feel out and develop.

    On the other hand, doesn't it pretty inherently lead to leetism? The classes are NOT balanced to be equal to eachother. Yours truly greatly enjoy raids - but not if EVERY healer has to be this-or-that spec of Cleric, or EVERY damage-dealer MUST be a specific class because it has 20 more total DPS than any other class on a scale of 10000.



  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Mandrake wrote: »
    Marzzo wrote: »
    With DPS meters we get toxicity.
    Without DPS meters, we get lazy people and toxicity.

    Toxicity is one thing, gatekeeping is another. No "dps meters" lessens toxicity by a lot. Next.

    Gatekeeping exists in games that make it easy to replace people, not because of combat trackers.

    If you are playing a game where groups can form cross server or where people can move servers easily to join your guild, people will only take exactly what they want. If you do not meet that criteria, there will be someone waiting that does.

    Limit groups to people in the same area on the same server, cut off cross server transfer, and all of a sudden you are limited in who you can group with or recruit in to your guild.

    Suddenly, you aren't looking for someone that meets your exact criteria, which means you are not "gatekeeping".

    Even without combat trackers, players will have exacting criteria they want from others. If all we have to judge the effectiveness of DPS is a standard mob and a stopwatch, that is what players will use, and if the game allows us to treat players as disposable, that is what will determine whether you are coming or not.
  • PlutarPlutar Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Mandrake wrote: »
    Who the hell does raids just to "top their numbers", lmao.
    There is actually an entire Community about Parsing in games, it's the Culture of Parsing and being "The Best" that keeps some players coming back. Some players come for collectables, some for achievements, others the gear and still more just to flex. What people enjoy is not so binary :)
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    The great thing about MMORPGs is people can measure how they "win" in different ways.

    So some, that's having the most money, best gear, or doing content first.

    For others, it's having higher numbers than other people.

    I don't really see why we should care either way, what ever makes these people happy, as long as they understand, no one else gives a shit.
    Aq0KG2f.png
  • SaeduSaedu Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mandrake wrote: »
    Raid leaders and min maxers that need them are smart people, they can figure something out.
    We already have, a combat tracker.

    Yup. Smart people also don't just make up numbers. We seek out the data available and use it to inform our decisions. When zero data is available, then intelligence becomes less if a factor and its more about getting lucky...

    Don't we already have too much RNG in MMOs?
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Zythtyz wrote: »
    There is actually an entire Community about Parsing in games, it's the Culture of Parsing and being "The Best" that keeps some players coming back. Some players come for collectables, some for achievements, others the gear and still more just to flex. What people enjoy is not so binary :)

    It is also about self improvement. Watching yourself rise through the ranks. Parsing better and better, and mastering the class and the fight. Without parsing that aspect is lost.

    Some of the culture of "Toxicity" comes from a place of knowing that some people are actively trying to improve whilst others have a more lax "My DPS is fine" attitude. It is hard to want these people around when you spend hours working to maximize your DPS and master a play style, and others just come in and play their job at 50-60% effectiveness and call it good enough.

    We can all like different things. I just don't tend to want to be around people who don't care about self improvement. I get that this is a game, but I also get more enjoyment out of anything when I can look back and where I was after improving. I also like seeing my friends improve with me.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Ya'll addicted to dps meters in your past games, just get used to not having it, and maybe you like it even more.

    Personally I don't want an interface telling me damage bars and numbers, and for god sake not on launch day, with the game brand new and already staining it with garbage addons.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Marcet wrote: »
    Ya'll addicted to dps meters in your past games, just get used to not having it, and maybe you like it even more.

    Personally I don't want an interface telling me damage bars and numbers, and for god sake not on launch day, with the game brand new and already staining it with garbage addons.

    Why get used to not having one when instead we can just have one?
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Marcet wrote: »
    Ya'll addicted to dps meters in your past games, just get used to not having it, and maybe you like it even more.

    Personally I don't want an interface telling me damage bars and numbers, and for god sake not on launch day, with the game brand new and already staining it with garbage addons.

    Why get used to not having one when instead we can just have one?

    Im gonna tell you exactly why, are you ready?

    Because a lot of people don't like it.
  • simply put. DPS meters are metagaming. And a MMORPG is a RP game at its core. You dont have to RP but the idea of the game is to be in character. DPS meters are meta and not incharacter.
    Trample the dead and hurdle the fallen. Run, and you will only die tired.
  • No DPS meters. The game should focus on making an immersive experience, not minmaxing gear/rotations to maximize damage. If the content is so hard at release it requires maximized DPS from group members to progress, then this game will flounder because WoW will always do that type of MMO better. Leave the gatekeeping/metagaming concepts with WoW, please.
  • SaeduSaedu Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 2021
    Marcet wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Marcet wrote: »
    Ya'll addicted to dps meters in your past games, just get used to not having it, and maybe you like it even more.

    Personally I don't want an interface telling me damage bars and numbers, and for god sake not on launch day, with the game brand new and already staining it with garbage addons.

    Why get used to not having one when instead we can just have one?

    Im gonna tell you exactly why, are you ready?

    Because a lot of people don't like it.

    But a lot of people don't like pvp....

    A lot of people do like meters...

    Not the strongest argument here.

  • NeauxNeaux Member

    On the other hand, doesn't it pretty inherently lead to leetism? The classes are NOT balanced to be equal to eachother. Yours truly greatly enjoy raids - but not if EVERY healer has to be this-or-that spec of Cleric, or EVERY damage-dealer MUST be a specific class because it has 20 more total DPS than any other class on a scale of 10000.

    I haven't seen the info that others have that points to Intrepid's lack of affinity for meters, but the quote above is my best guess as to why meters haven't been a priority for them.

    I know they've stated that groups will be balanced around an 8 person combo which we can assume to be the 8 primary classes. It might just be that your DPS, Healing or Mitigation etc will be so affected by the presence of other classes that that they feel not much can be gained from tracking numbers. By the time you add in all of the abilities and augments of all of the other classes in the party that add to your DPS, and further, all of the abilities and augments that classes may use to weaken your target, will you really know how your damage compares to a Spellmancer in another party? .. or even in the same party given they've mentioned proximity can play a role.

    Regardless, meters can be a valuable tool for those that want to use them and they are easy to implement, so like it or not, if Intrepid really is against them I think they will eventually cave and implement them (or allow the parsing of data at least).
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Marcet wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Marcet wrote: »
    Ya'll addicted to dps meters in your past games, just get used to not having it, and maybe you like it even more.

    Personally I don't want an interface telling me damage bars and numbers, and for god sake not on launch day, with the game brand new and already staining it with garbage addons.

    Why get used to not having one when instead we can just have one?

    Im gonna tell you exactly why, are you ready?

    Because a lot of people don't like it.

    This may come as a shock to you, but what other people like or dont like doesn't overly affect me.

    I mean, I can run one and you can not run one, how is that an issue?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Hedgemon wrote: »
    simply put. DPS meters are metagaming. And a MMORPG is a RP game at its core. You dont have to RP but the idea of the game is to be in character. DPS meters are meta and not incharacter.

    Well, this isn't exactly accurate.

    I RP characters that analyze their actions in combat in order to improve themselves. In order to do that, they need data from said combat.
  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    Khronus wrote: »
    I have a few methods I am planning on implementing with my guild to help with rotations and to maximize dps. There are ways to do this without a dps meter addon, people just need to figure it out. Obviously these methods will change depending on whatever information we get as the game gets closer to launch. At the end of the day, target dummies and dps meters should not be added into the game IMO.

    I'm curious, if it turns out that I have access to a combat tracker as functional as ACT, and this gives me and my guild the obvious advantage that it will give, would your opinion on this matter change?

    If your answer is "I hope people that use it get banned", I would point out to you that all it is doing is rearranging information that Intrepid is giving us all anyway, and there is neither a need nor a way to ban an account t for making use of the information Intrepid give us.

    That would definitely NOT be my response lol. If you have a way to gather this information easier, then I will use it as well. My answer comes from a hope that I will not have to rely on a dps meter to gather my information but instead have more of a rough time that helps promote more 1 on 1 interactions rather than sizing someone up to a universal number. I am looking forward to a unique (blind) approach to organizing my guild and helping out the members. Obviously I will use any and all tools in front of me to ensure our success.....but if the tools in front of us happen to be crude AF, I would accept this as another obstacle to overcome.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Khronus wrote: »
    if the tools in front of us happen to be crude AF, I would accept this as another obstacle to overcome.
    As would I.

    My way of overcoming it would be to develop less crude tools, since that is always an option.
  • MMO is supposed to entertain a spectrum of players, I know that games with meters tend to punish players that do not like meters in any way - that is understandable. The best way for both type of players is to find an ingame control solution about tracking useful information.

    The fact is that current approach to "no meter ever" is handicapping itself when the game actually shows you damage numbers.

    Also I totally disagree with the opinion that showing information is causing toxicity. Information is power and it is on each player if they want to be toxic with the acquired information. What I am more afraid of is how easy it is going to be to replace people. When you can get a replacement in a few minutes then there will be gatekeeping even without meters
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
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