Compromise for DPS Meters: Tooltip Numbers

So as we know Ashes of Creation will most likely not have any DPS meters. I am personally all for this as I think it becomes a form of Gatekeeping and actually forces a Meta rather than open discussions on how to improve. When it is easy to tell the exact best way to play the game, it ruins the fun and becomes about following the guide you have pulled up on another screen.

However, I would like to propose as a compromise that we do have Tooltip DPS and/or Raw Numbers on the Tooltip. That way it is easy to tell how much you gain or lose by putting on a new piece of gear. Somewhat similar to how Path of Exile does it.

What is everyone's thoughts on this?

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Noaani

Bardtic wrote: »

That wasnt the point of this. Obviously everyone used PoB when playing.

So, what you are doing is asking if players would be willing to use a system just like a far more casual game has implemented, that players of that far more casual game don't even use because it isn't good enough.

Don't get me wrong, I love PoE - I'm actually alt-tabbed from it right now. I'm just saying that this doesn't seem like an overly well thought out idea.

Tragnar

for OP - @Bardtic - If this game is awesome MMO with amazing raiding experience without compromising any other aspect of the game then you can bet your ass that me or any other person that has similar theorycrafting mindset will create a whole app where you just enter your stats, build and pewpew you get a sim of what your dps looks like in chosen scenarios - including any average damage ranges or max damage outliers.

Remember that in the top guilds there are members that dont actually play the game, but only create specific tools for the guild to use in order to get an advantage over others

Yuyukoyay

Honestly I might be fine not even seeing numbers at all. I think it would be more fun if they just gave you bar predictions when it comes to damage and heals. They can show your individual tooltip information when you hover the skill, but I don't really care that much for seeing the damage in battle.

Shoelid

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Honestly I might be fine not even seeing numbers at all. I think it would be more fun if they just gave you bar predictions when it comes to damage and heals. They can show your individual tooltip information when you hover the skill, but I don't really care that much for seeing the damage in battle.

can't wait to double my damage output with my sweet new weapon and have that bar prediction on the raid boss increase from one pixel to.... one pixel

Tragnar

Shoelid wrote: »

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Honestly I might be fine not even seeing numbers at all. I think it would be more fun if they just gave you bar predictions when it comes to damage and heals. They can show your individual tooltip information when you hover the skill, but I don't really care that much for seeing the damage in battle.

can't wait to double my damage output with my sweet new weapon and have that bar prediction on the raid boss increase from one pixel to.... one pixel

I totally understand

but well, seems that the intended audience prefers to be sheltered from informational facts by making it harder to get them - but not impossible

Blackford

Even if they completely ban mods and DPS meters specifically there's going to be ways for players to monitor their damage. Even if it's just using a stopwatch to see how long it takes to kill a target with a known health value, then dividing that total over the seconds it takes to drop them, and repeating that with different rotations to find the optimal one. Banning DPS meters just means you either risk a ban for using one, or end up jumping through hoops with a stopwatch and recording yourself....

More to the point - DPS meters make you a better player if you use them correctly. If I use the DPS meter to improve my DPS (or threat generated per second as a tank) then that's most certainly not a form of gatekeeping and in fact better prepares me for content.

While a ban on DPS meters will make a meta take a bit longer to come out, eventually some players are going to record their gameplay, use something like the above method to figure out the "best" rotations or develop spreadsheets or apps to sim data, and then were right where WoW is right now.

I understand some people hate this, but it's an unavoidable reality.

So, perhaps a better question than whether dps meters should exist in game would be what will we do to make the meta less important, or to encourage non-meta builds and classes to exist on a somewhat equal playing field... whether that's from group buffs or debuffs, unique utility, or some X factor I'm unaware of.

Tragnar

Blackford wrote: »

Even if they completely ban mods and DPS meters specifically there's going to be ways for players to monitor their damage. Even if it's just using a stopwatch to see how long it takes to kill a target with a known health value, then dividing that total over the seconds it takes to drop them, and repeating that with different rotations to find the optimal one. Banning DPS meters just means you either risk a ban for using one, or end up jumping through hoops with a stopwatch and recording yourself....

More to the point - DPS meters make you a better player if you use them correctly. If I use the DPS meter to improve my DPS (or threat generated per second as a tank) then that's most certainly not a form of gatekeeping and in fact better prepares me for content.

While a ban on DPS meters will make a meta take a bit longer to come out, eventually some players are going to record their gameplay, use something like the above method to figure out the "best" rotations or develop spreadsheets or apps to sim data, and then were right where WoW is right now.

I understand some people hate this, but it's an unavoidable reality.

So, perhaps a better question than whether dps meters should exist in game would be what will we do to make the meta less important, or to encourage non-meta builds and classes to exist on a somewhat equal playing field... whether that's from group buffs or debuffs, unique utility, or some X factor I'm unaware of.

Excellent point that has been mentioned a lot of times and almost every time it was completely rejected by "nah meter ban"

It is honestly so sad that honestly majority of forum posters about this topic is mainly hurt by some bad experience of meter misuse and because of that just cannot have a level headed conversation and try to weigh facts, pros and cons

The saddest thing in this discussion on this forum is the fact that people confuse booting from groups on meters instead of instant teleportation from a queue system that groups up players from different servers. Literally encouraging to boot anyone that seems being lower than average, because statistically in a few seconds you get a replacement that should be better

BigE

just an aggro number in the party list. FF14 has an A next to party member with aggro. Then numbers for who is next in threat.

Dygz

It’s never going to be a “level-headed” discussion because neither side is ever going to change the others’ perspective - regardless of what is said.

Vhaeyne

Dygz wrote: »

It’s never going to be a “level-headed” discussion because neither side is ever going to change the others’ perspective - regardless of what is said.

Maybe true, but if we keep a level head we can all come out of these discussions with an enriched prospective.

Caeryl

Every time this discussion pops up I’m reminded why I’m glad I’ll mostly be focused on crafting. No objective combat feedback is gonna be horrendous for players.

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

Every time this discussion pops up I’m reminded why I’m glad I’ll mostly be focused on crafting. No objective combat feedback is gonna be horrendous for players.

I have used ACT for both crafting and harvesting in some games.

Just saying.

Inixia

Good thing I'm here to figure out the tooltip solution that will work for BOTH sides.
Rest assured this tooltip assistant won't ever give you any hard data, it will just passive aggressively allude to when you are doing poor (and give real tips on how to correct it)

Vhaeyne

Inixia wrote: »

Good thing I'm hear to figure out the tooltip solution that will work for BOTH sides.
Rest assured this tooltip assistant won't ever give you any hard data, it will just passive aggressively allude to when you are doing poor.

If you can get that sword to be a little more toxic we got a deal. All us DPS meter guys want is for the non-DPS guys to feel bad when they play poorly...

Dygz

I think we know each other’s perspectives - we still disagree.

Maezriel

For me it's not even about min-maxing I just don't like having to guess what it is I'm doing. It's super frustrating to just see "Deals some fire damage" or "Heals a bit over time" I want to know if I should cast this heal when you just need a quick fix and this one when you're really hurting w/o having to guess and hope for the best.

That's not fun for me.

Dygz

Seems likely gear will have indicators like Critical Hit
Haste

Or have the devs said that’s not going to be available?

Maezriel

@Dygz I like to know the numbers b/c over two decades of playing TTRPGs are deeply ingrained into me. If the most roleplayiest of roleplaying games can handle people knowing exactly what their minimum and maximum damage is w/o too much toxicity I'm positive AoC won't burn to the ground by having detailed tooltips.

What really fascinates me w/ this community is how so many people keep saying how they want a tough, gritty, hardcore game but then those very people cower at the thought of a little math.

Dygz

I think it's probably not the same people.

Songcaller

I still believe a character panel like Archeage would be a better version of tool tips. I would prefer both to be in the game. It is nice to know what each skill can do but I find the overall power prospects to be more to my overall taste too. I'm not sure how detailed the character panel will be.

Also, the culture of AoC is a strange culture. We won't have specifics for health/mana last I heard so what use is a tool tip which says 'Does 500 Damage' when you can't see if the opponent even has 500 HP left?

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