Both in game and in the art Elves are nearly indistinguishable from Humans

Maezriel

This is especially true when you're zoomed out as most people are during play.

I would suggest considering a change to make Elves more "elemental/colorful" so they can stand out a bit more...similar to Godlike from Pillars or Tiefling from D&D.

I'm not against a paler skin tone option for both , but I do think the game would benefit from some greens and blues to help distinguish Elves from the other races.

Asgerr

For my taste, the simpler option would be to increase the length/size of their ears, so they are recognizable at first sight.

Odd skin colors may not be as evident under helmet and clothes (besides being hideous).

Ears sticking out would be so.

Vhaeyne

Maezriel wrote: »

This is especially true when you're zoomed out as most people are during play.

I would suggest considering a change to make Elves more "elemental/colorful" so they can stand out a bit more...similar to Godlike from Pillars or Tiefling from D&D.

I'm not against a paler skin tone option for both , but I do think the game would benefit from some greens and blues to help distinguish Elves from the other races.

As an elf guy, I agree. You have to really zoom in on the elves ears to know you are dealing with an elf currently.



These elves don't have that large of ears, but you can tell them at a glance.

Let's hope this is a case where sliders will fix everything.

Maezriel

Asgerr wrote: »

For my taste, the simpler option would be to increase the length/size of their ears, so they are recognizable at first sight.

Odd skin colors may not be as evident under helmet and clothes (besides being hideous).

Ears sticking out would be so.

It's a thought, however the length they would have to stick out to be notable would border on WoW ears.

Dygz

Again, Ashes is based on Steven's homebrew of Pathfinder.
I doubt that the Elves will change to be elemental/colorful because that's not the lore Steven created for his Pathfinder game.
We should be able to recognize Elves by their gear.

Maezriel

Dygz wrote: »

Again, Ashes is based on Steven's homebrew of Pathfinder.
I doubt that the Elves will change to be elemental/colorful because that's not the lore Steven created for his Pathfinder game.
We should be able to recognize Elves by their gear.

I'm very aware of what the game is based on but the lore isn't cemented in stone yet and if a light retcon is all that's needed to ensure Elves stand out in the actual game that we're all paying for that shouldn't be too big of a deal. On top of that, I doubt everyone is going to go through the trouble of memorizing what every piece of gear looks like on each race.

Races should be visually distinct and stand out from one another whether it be in height, build, or pigmentation and seeing as how Elves are the exact same height in build as humans and the Orcs aren't really a distinct color either I picked the attribute that made the most sense to change.

Jamation

I mean there is somewhat of an obvious difference.
We elves know we're better than humans.
💁‍♀️💁‍♀️💁‍♀️💁‍♀️

Marcet

They basicly have pointy ears and are often taller, but you can mistake them pretty easily yeah.

Vhaeyne

Real talk,

I did come up to a node that had elven looking architecture, the other day. I was not certain if it was an elven node, so I zoomed in on the ears of the guards to confirm it was elven. It was, an elven node. While slightly confusing at this current time in game. After seeing the recent tweets with screenshots from the character creator I have to say that I want to wait until we see what the character creator allows before asking for more from it.

Just something I have been thinking recently. I have a whole thread dedicated to character creation:
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/48710/was-board-ranked-mmorpg-character-creators-lets-talk-about-it#latest

I want the most from these character creators.

https://twitter.com/StevenJSharif/status/1395854060150870022

That tweet gives me hope.

Dreoh

Dygz wrote: »

Again, Ashes is based on Steven's homebrew of Pathfinder.
I doubt that the Elves will change to be elemental/colorful because that's not the lore Steven created for his Pathfinder game.
We should be able to recognize Elves by their gear.

This coming from the guy who consistently talks about gear visuals don't matter because they could and should be changed at will lol

I do agree that we should be ab le to recognize people by their gear.

But I also agree with the people who think the current races are way too homogenous. But I'm not the creator of the setting.

Songcaller

In theory augments will encompass racial flares. Not sure about the extent of racial augments though.

Dygz

Maezriel wrote: »

I'm very aware of what the game is based on but the lore isn't cemented in stone yet and if a light retcon is all that's needed to ensure Elves stand out in the actual game that we're all paying for that shouldn't be too big of a deal. On top of that, I doubt everyone is going to go through the trouble of memorizing what every piece of gear looks like on each race.

The part about the Elves not being elemental is pretty cemented in stone. Especially since the Empyrean and Py’Rai evolved on a world without magic.
And the colors are probably cemented in stone as well. If we need to able to distinguish the races that badly, then it’s going to have to be body shape because my Dünir is currently covered head to toe in Corvid/Plague Doctor gear and neither her skin color nor her ears are visible.

Races should be visually distinct and stand out from one another whether it be in height, build, or pigmentation and seeing as how Elves are the exact same height in build as humans and the Orcs aren't really a distinct color either I picked the attribute that made the most sense to change.

It’s Alpha.
What’s the comparison in the concept art?
I don’t recall looking at the concept art and mistaking Elves for Humans.

Songcaller

I will most likely main a Py-Rai (Unless there are benefits to running a Bard of a different race). I don't want the Elves to be too weird because I will hide my helmet. Typically, Tolkien Elves are more beautiful than humans - both male and female Elves, but, the concept art for Ashes Elves are more thematic Elves than glorified Elves. I wouldn't want massive Elf Ears or massive Elf Eyes. I don't want an overhaul of either Elven Option like I do with the Dwarves. I imagine Elves might be a tad taller than Humans, Orcs being taller than Elves and Tulnar being taller than Orcs but I haven't seen much information on Orcs and Tulnar yet. Certainly no height comparisons. Not sure how in depth the character creation will be.

Dygz

Dreoh wrote: »

This coming from the guy who consistently talks about gear visuals don't matter because they could and should be changed at will lol

Oh. I eventually got there.
Crazy busy day at work waiting for AT&T to fix the internet outage, so I just jumped in and gave a quick response and then jumped out again.
But, like I just said...my Dünir is covered up head-to-toe. She is discernible as a Dünir due to body shape and size.

But I also agree with the people who think the current races are way too homogenous. But I'm not the creator of the setting.

Have we seen concept art that compare race sizes? Those should help give us some idea of what the ultimate goals are.

Nerror

If the goal is to be recognizable from a distance, I think the only solution that doesn't look silly is to have them be a different body size/shape that humans and orcs cannot achieve through character creation. My preference is to not have WoW-like long ears. They are certainly visible though.

Having them be different enough through gear-look is not really a good option, due to the hundreds, and probably thousands, of skins we'll get through cosmetics and transmogs. Not enough to be distinct from a distance that is. Maybe they can do something with weapons and shields, assuming they are always visible and there are very limited or no transmog/cosmetic skin options for them.

With that said, I wouldn't mind some coloring options that are unavailable to the other races, so they can stand out upon closer inspection. Hair, skin, eye colors etc.

Lore-wise, I think the most common fantasy themes are that elves and humans look enough alike from a distance that elves can pass for humans, for example, just by covering their ears and people not getting a closer look at their faces. In some fantasy settings they are definitely different though, including body sizes.

Dygz

Seems like skins might obscure body shape as well. Helmets will very likely obscure ears.
I think it’s fairly typical in RPGs that Elves could be mistaken for Humans if they are wearing helmets.

Songcaller

We know cosmetics will have racial flares - whether the racial flares can dictate which of 2 options the person is remains to be seen, I don't think you can mistake a Py-Rai for a Human unless the concept art isn't the pixel compilation in the end realm.



The female elf has long elven ears (Male has long hair so ears are obscured). I think it is too early to fear Elves will look like Humans when the character models are still being created and perfected. Of course, you could build your Elf to look Elven (dependant on hairstyle) or you could obscure your Elven Gifts to appear more Human (Keeping your race a personal parameter you're free to share or not).

Overall, I don't think we have a major problem at the present time. I would love to see Py-Rai in pixels though. Of course, the alpha build is limited and the Dev diary build are also limited.

Edit:

Of course, the pixel renditions don't match the concept art in most cases so far:



You can see in the rendition above, the empyreans have smaller elf ears which make them less distinguishable against Humans. Though, the image is an older image and may not indicate the current state of the build.

Dygz

I think we have only seen base models for Empyreans, so far.
Again, we will have to see what’s possible to achieve with sliders.

Songcaller

Yeah. I hope we get to use the character creation as an early bonus before launch. Would be nice to play around with the concepts for a few hours. I think the dwarven issue could also be remedied by sliders too.

Ferni

They said we're going to have a wide array of character customization and the character creator is going to be as good or better than what BDO provided, so I hope this will allow players to customize their character to their liking (with some limitations, personally I would like to see realistic characters).

So I guess it will up to players to decide if they want their elf more "elf looking" or more "human looking". I remember reading some people asking about half-elves, half-orcs and others, so having an editor that allows these things can be good for some players and will add more variety to the world.

Dygz

Doesn’t armor work differently in BDO than it does in Ashes - in terms of how the same set of armor appears on different races?
I don’t think BDO has the same armor mechanics, but...I haven’t played it, so I don’t know for sure.

I don’t think the character creator will allow for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs due to Ashes lore.

Songcaller

The Armour in BDO has set models for set classes. Its not based on Race at all. You also can't use the armour models on all classes. Shai for example is excluded from the majority of armour models because Shai is really small compared to most classes. Of course, Shai has their own armour models though. It can be annoying when you play Shai and get the standard Cosmetic Rewards which exclude Shai though.

Edit: Shai could be classed as a Child Depiction though or a **** if you prefer, so the sexualised female cosmetics aren't really appropriate for Shai.

Dygz

Right.
So, the way armor works in Ashes, armor doesn’t stretch to fit any proportions.
So, there is a limit to how beefy and wide a Dünir can be, for instance.
I think what we currently see is that the Dünir base model is actually wider than some of the armor sets, so Dünir seem thinner when wearing some armor sets than they do without any armor.

Remember that Steven uses a lot of hyperbole. “As good or better than BDO” really means the goal is for the character creator to offer a lot of options. And he hopes people will like it as much as they like the BDO character creator.
I don’t think people will be able to make overly-exaggerated characters, primarily due to the constraints of the armor designs for each race.

Songcaller

Yeah, BDO itself doesn't allow for major adjustments, just fine tuned adjustments. You can make weird faces and weird proportions but not extreme proportions. You can change vertical, horizontal and depth parameters. You also risk clipping with a lot of the hairstyles but I digress. The beauty of BDO is you have access to the character creator at any time so if you want to change something you pop the consumable and make the changes. I don't think Ashes will use the latter system because its not very risk vs reward.

Ferni

@Dygz You're right, I don't think we can create half-elves and half-orcs either. What I was trying to say was that if the character creator offers many different options to modify the morphology of our character, you maybe could make an elf with small ears, not very pointy and with a body shape that looks similar to a human body.

Songcaller

Here is a BDO Example of an Elf I made:



The ears are the signature, please forgive the eyes. I love wonderful eyes.

Dygz

I meant that I don’t think Elves will be able to make Human-like ears and I don’t think Humans will be able to make Elf-like ears.

I think Humans will not be able to make pointy ears and Elf ears will be able to be larger than default Elf ears but not smaller.

Songcaller

Yeah, I understand what you mean. I'm not sure how IS will treat the Character Creation tools. In BDO you can morph the ears into many sizes. I'm not sure if IS will allow the same flexibility but if they aim for a similar character creator to BDO then the options might be similar. There are only two Elven Options in BDO but other than the ears they are very similar to humans. Ranger/Archer and Dark Knight can be Elves in BDO. Not a lot relates to the Races though which won't be the same in Ashes.

Edit: Spelling mistakes.

Dygz

I think the goal is for similar but the devs want to keep within racial ranges for Ashes lore.

But, maybe they won’t care about visual Half-Elves.
We’ll have to see.

Songcaller

Yeah, personally I'm not a fan of Half-Breeds or Half-Elves. I am a big fan of Elves in general though. I will prefer the heavier stance on the racial front in Ashes because I enjoy immersion. I feel the Node Functions, the cosmetic functions and the Racial Augments will enhance immersion for me.

Elloa

The Alpha Character creator is obviously a placeholder, and its not even certain than the silhouette (the squeletton) of the races currently in Alpha 1 is final.
So I would not worry too much guys.

However it may be a great thing to continue to post how in your ideal world you would envision the elves!! That would be constructive, as the character creator is still in development, you have a chance to influence the work with proper feedback