hiroMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think making their features more pronounced would aid in this issue. This also would come in more as the character creation system gets more flushed out. More pronounce ear tip and being able to make them larger or stick out more, making taller and sleeker body sizes would help. Also, making the Vaelune a bit more burley would also assist. Im not saying huge, just a bit more muscular or built.
I think we have only seen base models for Empyreans, so far.
Again, we will have to see what’s possible to achieve with sliders.
The issue I have with this is that I shouldn't have to work the sliders to make an elf look like an elf.
You should be able to play any preset of any race and be identifiable as being of that race.
Without armor, as things stand, it looks like humans and elves are nearly indistinguishable without zooming on their ears.
With armor on (and thus not seeing their skin color and facial features), it looks like maybe even Orcs might be hard to tell apart from humans and elves.
In this art, you could even be forgiven if you mistook the orc facing away from us as being an elf:
Throw a helmet on this one and they look like humans:
The same goes for all the concept art shared on Elves and Humans. And their in game rendition also accentuates that lack of visual identity.
I'm a massive fan of different shapes and patterns for the eye retinues. I think Elves don't need to have Human eye retinues. I would really appreciate options in the eye retinues for Elves in particular. I also appreciate a wealth of colours perhaps purple, orange, red and green. I love to take screenshots and I often inspect my female toons very close and personal hence the focus on eye retinues. I hope eye retinues aren't overlooked.
Races should be visually distinct and stand out from one another whether it be in height, build, or pigmentation and seeing as how Elves are the exact same height in build as humans and the Orcs aren't really a distinct color either I picked the attribute that made the most sense to change.
I disagree with your basic premise. There is no "need" to look different, especially for Elves. Although there are many iterations of Elves looking distinct from human, the classic elvish look is usually close to that of human. Tolkien's elves look barely different from human. For most of D&D's history elves and human looked quite similar.
Having some races looking alike at first glance is a good thing for the PvP side of thing. Racial augments being harder to guess, you can surprise an opponent by picking a race/class/armour/build combo that is not typical and maybe gain a little advantage in the fight. I personally did this in Dark Age of Camelot. My saracen mercenary looked like a scout (because it was the "best race" for that class) and attracted the enemy stealthers looking for an easy kill. Surprise, surprise! I'm in mail, got two swords and now you're dead.
If looking different and easily identifiable is important for you, be brave and roll a Tulnar!
If the racial crusades happen from the crusades thread I will be happy to appear a different race to my real race. Sometimes subterfuge keeps one alive. I haven't really played an Elf before which couldn't be mistaken as a Human at a glance. I'm not sure about Orcs looking like Humans but the thread isn't about Orcs really.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think we have only seen base models for Empyreans, so far.
Again, we will have to see what’s possible to achieve with sliders.
The issue I have with this is that I shouldn't have to work the sliders to make an elf look like an elf.
You should be able to play any preset of any race and be identifiable as being elf.
Not during an Alpha. Especially for races that are very similar to Humans.
You keep arguing like what a gamer should be able to play. But Alpha is not about what players should be able to play, Alpha is about testing.
This is similar to my expectation that I should be able to create a character that looks like me even as soon as access to Alpha begins.
If the Alpha has Humans, I should be able to create a character with African or Asian features...hopefully in addition to being able to create characters with European features.
I have this expectation because of Landmark.
Landmark was announced the summer of 2013. Alpha opened Feb 2014. I was pleasantly surprised to be able to create a character that looks fairly close to my irl appearance.
When H1Z1 Alpha launched in 2015, I was shocked to be stuck with only European characters...especially since the lead artist was Mat Broome, who is African American.
Mat told me that they start with a default model. When I asked why the default model always have to have European features, he didn’t answer.
Mat Broome also started as lead artist for Ashes characters and I was disappointed to once again see the default Human character(s) once again only having European features. It should be OK to sometimes have the default character be Asian or African rather than European.
I was hoping to interview Mat on The Ashen Forge, but seems Steven is the only one allowed to give interviews and Mat is no longer working at Intrepid Studios.
Ashes was originally supposed to launch in 2019, so I was surprised when APOC finally opened that I wasn’t able to create characters with African features - APOC was basically what they were hoping would be Alpha One, but they didn’t have enough mobs for that so they went with just using players for the test. But, if they were planning Alpha One for 2018, and a release in 2019, characters with African features should have been available.
More disappointing was jumping into APOC and seeing no traces of Dwarves or Orcs.
We could see statues of Humans and Elves but no statues of Dwarves or Orcs.
Which meant they had no models for Dwarves or Orcs yet. Thus it was easy to predict that Ashes would not be launching in 2019 and probably not releasing in 2020.
But they had only Humans and Elves because Elves are very similar to Humans compared to Dwarves and Orcs. Implementing Elves is quicker and easier to do than Dwarves and Orcs.
And Elves that look like Humans is quicker and easier to do than Elves that don’t look like Humans.
So you should expect an Alpha to have Elves that look like Humans.
Similarly, you should expect a team of EQ/EQ devs to start with Dwarves that look like EQ Dwarves because that’s what they know got to make. It’s going to be quickest and easiest for them to create Dwarves that look like EQ Dwarves so that’s what you should expect to see in an Alpha.
Similarly, if the lead artist is European, I would not be as surprised that the default Human has European features. Easiest to create what you know best. I expect an African-American to have enough experience creating African-American characters that they could quickly and easily create African characters as the default.
An Alpha is not developed for what gamers are going to want to PLAY during the Alpha.
An Alpha is about getting basic stuff in so that the devs are able to TEST.
For an Alpha, Elves don’t need to be quickly and easily distinguishable from Humans.
Especially since it is typical in D&D for Elves to be indistinguishable from Humans if they’re fully clothed and wearing helmets.
Because Elves looking similar to Humans in an ALPHA is not going to effect the TESTING.
Wood Elf could be seen as a Human if she wore a helm:
Wood Elves are often depicted by horns, green armour, leaf armour or distinctive nature armour rather than their ears:
Night Elves in WoW have purple skin and long, pointy ears. They would still be seen as Human in Full Plate Armour:
Night Elves wear distinctive armour much like the wood elves:
High Elves can also appear to be humans if they wore human armour. High Elf Armour is distinctive, much like Night Elves in WoW and Wood Elves in other IPs.
These High Elves could be mistaken for Humans if they wore helmets with their robes:
Dark Elves from Lineage 2 also have blueish/grey skin but could be mistaken for Humans in full plate armour.
Dark Elves also have distinctive armour, much like Wood Elves, High Elves and Night Elves:
In most IPs, Elves are proportioned like Humans and could be mistaken for Humans if the Elf wanted to appear like a Human. Elves have great pride however, and dress like individuals when they choose to show their heritage. I believe Ashes has the right idea behind the flavours. In reality, Ashes only has Wood Elves (Py-Rai) and High Elves (Empyrean) and both of these races will have personal architecture, personal Lore and personal Armour Styles.
If you want to buy Generic Cosmetics which can fit all races, then you will appear like other races. If you want to be individualised or a match for your kinsfolk then you should aim for Racial Transmogs and Racial Armours/Appearances.
For elves are they benevolent or are they as varied and corruptible as humans? Such things can be brought about in their features which makes an evil handsome/pretty elf more despicable due to preconceived notions based on appearance. Happens in the human world all the time.
Elves have had a pretty broad interpretation. Some taller than the average human, some much smaller. They are the Others in the wood. The stranger your mother tells you to beware of. Some will like human only to be betrayed by a feature or two. Pointed ears, not necessarily large. Odd eyes in terms of shape, color or iris. A beauty that doesn’t look right by human standards.
And what should the feel be? It ranges from Santa’s elves to a Lovecraft style horror (especially when you dig into some of the older stories).
For physique, they tend to generally be thinner than the average human but not weaker and are much more agile
For the races in general, I would hope they have the full range of human variation. Likewise having the same degree of diversity in the other races would be a good thing. That said, I think you need an economic system for the extreme ends of the spectrum otherwise you are going to see a lot of 7 foot or 4 foot humans. Does size affect stats or combat mechanics? Perhaps the type of variation is dependent on your starting biome?
Provide players with options to make decisions that may have consequences. Isn’t that the real theme of this game?
I think we have only seen base models for Empyreans, so far.
Again, we will have to see what’s possible to achieve with sliders.
The issue I have with this is that I shouldn't have to work the sliders to make an elf look like an elf.
You should be able to play any preset of any race and be identifiable as being elf.
Not during an Alpha. Especially for races that are very similar to Humans.
You keep arguing like what a gamer should be able to play. But Alpha is not about what players should be able to play, Alpha is about testing.
@Dygz FFS, at what point of this conversation have I or anyone said anything about this needing to be done for the Alpha???
Seriously man, you're being ridiculous.
Everyone here understands that these issues -- and possible requested changes -- are meant to be for whenever the game launches. If the feedback provided prompts Intrepid to enact any changes, they could be implemented as late as Beta-2.
I would argue every Elven Player will be different because every Elven Player will be Human. Therefore, you have all the nuances of Humanity within The Elven Players. Should Elves reflect the Human's Preferences? Yes they should. There are tall humans, thin humans, small humans, plump humans and ripped humans. There will of course be the same for Elves. There is no set parameter to state Elves can't look like Humans, and no set parameter to say Humans can't wear Elven Armour.
There are however, distinct differences between Santa's Elves, High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves and Night Elves. Much the same as there are differences between High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves and Night Elves. For a start each would worship a different Deity and each have different preferences. Can all this be accommodated from simple appearance? No, it can't be. Can you mould an Elven Character into a feasible pigeon hole? Yes, you could.
Some very good points, raised in this thread. Hadn't thought of it before, but indeed - Elves are bit indistinguishable from Humans, at this point in development. Maybe a different/stand-out color of skin would serve us well.
....Or we could make them 1/8 the size of humans. You know - like folktale Elves that make shoes for cobblers, or toys for Santa. They would *definitely* stand out and be recognizable as Elves, if they were 9 inches tall....
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ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
....Or we could make them 1/8 the size of humans. You know - like folktale Elves that make shoes for cobblers, or toys for Santa. They would *definitely* stand out and be recognizable as Elves, if they were 9 inches tall....
The rage from elf players if they did that would be epic lol.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Everyone here understands that these issues -- and possible requested changes -- are meant to be for whenever the game launches. If the feedback provided prompts Intrepid to enact any changes, they could be implemented as late as Beta-2.
No. You are the one who is being ridiculous because if you understood all of that you would have no problem with me saying it probably won’t be as stout, beefy and wide as Warhammer Dwarves.
And you wouldn’t continue to argue just to find something to argue about.
Vhaeyne has come around to understand we are basically on the same page.
Uncommon Sense has come around to understand we are basically on the same page.
But you want to continue to make up stuff to argue about. And I am just trying to explain to you what you seemingly don’t understand and have you correctly mirror back what I wrote.
What you wrote is that you should not have to use sliders to make an Elf look like an Elf.
The current Elves in the Alpha already look like Elves. If you want to be able to make Elves look unmistakenly like an Elf - the elfiest Elf possible - you will do that with sliders. Because the base model is going to look like Steven’s vision of Pathfinder Elves. And like EQ/EQ2 Elves.
If you can’t understand that or don’t like that, that is a hell of your own making.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I would argue every Elven Player will be different because every Elven Player will be Human. Therefore, you have all the nuances of Humanity within The Elven Players. Should Elves reflect the Human's Preferences? Yes they should. There are tall humans, thin humans, small humans, plump humans and ripped humans. There will of course be the same for Elves. There is no set parameter to state Elves can't look like Humans, and no set parameter to say Humans can't wear Elven Armour.
There are however, distinct differences between Santa's Elves, High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves and Night Elves. Much the same as there are differences between High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves and Night Elves. For a start each would worship a different Deity and each have different preferences. Can all this be accommodated from simple appearance? No, it can't be. Can you mould an Elven Character into a feasible pigeon hole? Yes, you could.
You could argue that, but Empyrean and Py’Rai will most likely be Steven’s vision of Pathfinder Elves.
I very much dislike how all the character models look in the game right now. I will be playing an Orc and really only care that they look extremely skinny compared to what "I think" an Orc should look like. I can follow the lore behind why we look like green humans if I have to but I would prefer not.
Am I just so used to seeing thick bulky Orcs and short fat dwarves that my nostalgia can't let me see the potential for something new and unique? Probably haha. I get the feeling that everything we are being shown is based around the word "fancy". Fancy mounts, fancy races, fancy dwarves that flip when they jump. I want GRIT and ROUGH character models. I am going through a portal to beat the shit out of people and claim land for myself. I don't care about cosmetics or how cute mounts are....I want blood. I want war and turmoil, not rainbows in the cow level.
Races should be visually distinct and stand out from one another whether it be in height, build, or pigmentation and seeing as how Elves are the exact same height in build as humans and the Orcs aren't really a distinct color either I picked the attribute that made the most sense to change.
I disagree with your basic premise. There is no "need" to look different, especially for Elves. Although there are many iterations of Elves looking distinct from human, the classic elvish look is usually close to that of human. Tolkien's elves look barely different from human. For most of D&D's history elves and human looked quite similar.
Having some races looking alike at first glance is a good thing for the PvP side of thing. Racial augments being harder to guess, you can surprise an opponent by picking a race/class/armour/build combo that is not typical and maybe gain a little advantage in the fight. I personally did this in Dark Age of Camelot. My saracen mercenary looked like a scout (because it was the "best race" for that class) and attracted the enemy stealthers looking for an easy kill. Surprise, surprise! I'm in mail, got two swords and now you're dead.
If looking different and easily identifiable is important for you, be brave and roll a Tulnar!
I think the fact that the majority of the races have a nearly identical silhouette is just visually boring.
I understand most fantasy races are just lightly modified humans but I'd like to see the ones in AoC go a bit more in the fantastical direction.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I very much dislike how all the character models look in the game right now. I will be playing an Orc and really only care that they look extremely skinny compared to what "I think" an Orc should look like. I can follow the lore behind why we look like green humans if I have to but I would prefer not.
It’s Steven’s homebrew Pathfinder game, so expect the races to start off looking like Steven’s vision of the Pathfinder races.
Character creator should eventually allow you to get bulkier. But, we’re currently in an Alpha One Preview.
I very much dislike how all the character models look in the game right now. I will be playing an Orc and really only care that they look extremely skinny compared to what "I think" an Orc should look like. I can follow the lore behind why we look like green humans if I have to but I would prefer not.
It’s Steven’s homebrew Pathfinder game, so expect the races to start off looking like Steven’s vision of the Pathfinder races.
Character creator should eventually allow you to get bulkier. But, we’re currently in an Alpha One Preview.
Except if this is what they're basing their races on, the current default presets seen in live streams etc, all look like the human or half elf (except the dwarves who look like squarish gnomes)
And seeing the concept art for orcs, it's not looking like they're as built as the one in the image you posted here either.
You could argue that, but Empyrean and Py’Rai will most likely be Steven’s vision of Pathfinder Elves.
I didn't quote the post but it was written in response to the Santa's Elf Post. I have no concerns over Pathfinder Elves, Pathfinder Humans, Pathfinder Dwarves or Pathfinder in general.
I think going for a bit of a more stereotypical elf might help solve the issue. Taller, slender, more elegant, and most of the time far more beautiful.
Besides that? Looking for what Intrepid is going for, I can't think of any better additions
Stick with exaggerated ears, anything else would kill their aesthetic. A pristine example of a disappointing Elf design lies with Divinity 2, they just look stupid...
In a game where people can transmog their gear at will, distinct race silhouettes is even more important for aesthetic and gameplay reasons. There are some good dev discussions on this topic floating around out there. I can only imagine its more difficult to get it right with a less stylized and less fantastical approach to the base races. (as seen so far).
But perhaps its their intented goal to have the races be kinda "sameish" in how they are rigged and look so its easier to make cosmetics for them. This seems to be a quite cosmetic driven game.
I very much dislike how all the character models look in the game right now. I will be playing an Orc and really only care that they look extremely skinny compared to what "I think" an Orc should look like. I can follow the lore behind why we look like green humans if I have to but I would prefer not.
It’s Steven’s homebrew Pathfinder game, so expect the races to start off looking like Steven’s vision of the Pathfinder races.
Character creator should eventually allow you to get bulkier. But, we’re currently in an Alpha One Preview.
Except if this is what they're basing their races on, the current default presets seen in live streams etc, all look like the human or half elf (except the dwarves who look like squarish gnomes)
And seeing the concept art for orcs, it's not looking like they're as built as the one in the image you posted here either.
It's kind of weird to me how the combat in AoC is so over-the-top w/ it's SFX yet Intrepid has gone fairly basic as far as developing it's own style. There's actually very little (visually) about the game that really stands out.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
This is especially true when you're zoomed out as most people are during play.
I would suggest considering a change to make Elves more "elemental/colorful" so they can stand out a bit more...similar to Godlike from Pillars or Tiefling from D&D.
I'm not against a paler skin tone option for both , but I do think the game would benefit from some greens and blues to help distinguish Elves from the other races.
If you read the lore, you would know that elves and humans used to be one race, it got split into the elves and humans, so this is why it makes sense
This is especially true when you're zoomed out as most people are during play.
I would suggest considering a change to make Elves more "elemental/colorful" so they can stand out a bit more...similar to Godlike from Pillars or Tiefling from D&D.
I'm not against a paler skin tone option for both , but I do think the game would benefit from some greens and blues to help distinguish Elves from the other races.
If you read the lore, you would know that elves and humans used to be one race, it got split into the elves and humans, so this is why it makes sense
I understand that, but this is also a highly magical world w/ alien space gods whose corruption has seeped into nearly every aspect of it.
There's no real reason that even offshoots of a race can't be visually distinct on their own.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's kind of weird to me how the combat in AoC is so over-the-top w/ it's SFX yet Intrepid has gone fairly basic as far as developing it's own style. There's actually very little (visually) about the game that really stands out.
It's based on Pathfinder and EQ/EQ2....where Elves look pretty much like Humans with pointy ears.
It's not really going for its own style in terms of the player races... except adding more irl diversity with the Polynesian Nikua... and the Tulnar.
Corruption has not affected the player races.
Orcs, Elves, Dwarves and Humans have only been back on Verra for maybe a year after being on a non-magical world for thousands of years.
It's kind of weird to me how the combat in AoC is so over-the-top w/ it's SFX yet Intrepid has gone fairly basic as far as developing it's own style. There's actually very little (visually) about the game that really stands out.
It's based on Pathfinder and EQ/EQ2....where Elves look pretty much like Humans with pointy ears.
It's not really going for its own style in terms of the player races... except adding more irl diversity with the Polynesian Nikua... and the Tulnar.
Corruption has not affected the player races.
Orcs, Elves, Dwarves and Humans have only been back on Verra for maybe a year after being on a non-magical world for thousands of years.
As you and I already discussed the lore isn't set in stone and regardless of how it's explained the point still stands that visually the game looks generic as hell.
There's not a single system in AoC that requires the races to look so homogenized and I'd like to see some push towards a unique style as Intrepid picks up more talent. It doesn't have to go as far as WoW or Corepunk but the architecture shouldn't be the most notable difference between the races.
It's just like when you look at Elyon and see yet another Korean MMO...it immediately brings down people's expectations for an original experience.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2021
That lore is set in stone.
Appearances are still going through some iterations.
However it is that the player races appear to be at launch - it won't be due to Corruption.
Racial differences appearance-wise will be armor/costumes as well as architecture.
The Nikua will have some appearance differences from the Dunir... in the most recent concept art, the Nikua appear to be thinner than the Dunir.
Elves will have pointed ears - how long the ears will be able to get we don't know, but the concept art suggests that won't matter when they wear helmets.
The original experience for Ashes of creation is not really focused on how different the player races can look from each other - except for the Tulnar. That is not an intended hook for Ashes of Creation.
That lore is set in stone.
Appearances are still going through some iterations.
However it is that the player races appear to be at launch - it won't be due to Corruption.
Racial differences appearance-wise will be armor/costumes as well as architecture.
The Nikua will have some appearance differences from the Dunir... in the most recent concept art, the Nikua appear to be thinner than the Dunir.
Elves will have pointed ears - how long the ears will be able to get we don't know, but the concept art suggests that won't matter when they wear helmets.
The original experience for Ashes of creation is not really focused on how different the player races can look from each other - except for the Tulnar. That is not an intended hook for Ashes of Creation.
I'm sorry I didn't realize I was talking to Intrepid staff.
The game is still in A1 and there's no point in saying anything is truly cemented until launch. Even then retcons do exists and if the game lasts for any decent amount of time they will likely happen so changing the lore to allow for some form of visual originality is possible.
I don't agree that armor should be how we differentiate the races. Armor should add to a races aesthetic not be the primary focus. I'm not looking to roll a suit of Armor I'm looking to play a character in a fantasy world and they should be able to stand out from different races when fully naked. ESO gets away w/ it b/c the vast majority of their races are arguably ethnicities but, like I said, there's nothing really like that in AoC
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
Comments
The issue I have with this is that I shouldn't have to work the sliders to make an elf look like an elf.
You should be able to play any preset of any race and be identifiable as being of that race.
Without armor, as things stand, it looks like humans and elves are nearly indistinguishable without zooming on their ears.
With armor on (and thus not seeing their skin color and facial features), it looks like maybe even Orcs might be hard to tell apart from humans and elves.
In this art, you could even be forgiven if you mistook the orc facing away from us as being an elf:
Throw a helmet on this one and they look like humans:
The same goes for all the concept art shared on Elves and Humans. And their in game rendition also accentuates that lack of visual identity.
I disagree with your basic premise. There is no "need" to look different, especially for Elves. Although there are many iterations of Elves looking distinct from human, the classic elvish look is usually close to that of human. Tolkien's elves look barely different from human. For most of D&D's history elves and human looked quite similar.
Having some races looking alike at first glance is a good thing for the PvP side of thing. Racial augments being harder to guess, you can surprise an opponent by picking a race/class/armour/build combo that is not typical and maybe gain a little advantage in the fight. I personally did this in Dark Age of Camelot. My saracen mercenary looked like a scout (because it was the "best race" for that class) and attracted the enemy stealthers looking for an easy kill. Surprise, surprise! I'm in mail, got two swords and now you're dead.
If looking different and easily identifiable is important for you, be brave and roll a Tulnar!
You keep arguing like what a gamer should be able to play. But Alpha is not about what players should be able to play, Alpha is about testing.
This is similar to my expectation that I should be able to create a character that looks like me even as soon as access to Alpha begins.
If the Alpha has Humans, I should be able to create a character with African or Asian features...hopefully in addition to being able to create characters with European features.
I have this expectation because of Landmark.
Landmark was announced the summer of 2013. Alpha opened Feb 2014. I was pleasantly surprised to be able to create a character that looks fairly close to my irl appearance.
When H1Z1 Alpha launched in 2015, I was shocked to be stuck with only European characters...especially since the lead artist was Mat Broome, who is African American.
Mat told me that they start with a default model. When I asked why the default model always have to have European features, he didn’t answer.
Mat Broome also started as lead artist for Ashes characters and I was disappointed to once again see the default Human character(s) once again only having European features. It should be OK to sometimes have the default character be Asian or African rather than European.
I was hoping to interview Mat on The Ashen Forge, but seems Steven is the only one allowed to give interviews and Mat is no longer working at Intrepid Studios.
Ashes was originally supposed to launch in 2019, so I was surprised when APOC finally opened that I wasn’t able to create characters with African features - APOC was basically what they were hoping would be Alpha One, but they didn’t have enough mobs for that so they went with just using players for the test. But, if they were planning Alpha One for 2018, and a release in 2019, characters with African features should have been available.
More disappointing was jumping into APOC and seeing no traces of Dwarves or Orcs.
We could see statues of Humans and Elves but no statues of Dwarves or Orcs.
Which meant they had no models for Dwarves or Orcs yet. Thus it was easy to predict that Ashes would not be launching in 2019 and probably not releasing in 2020.
But they had only Humans and Elves because Elves are very similar to Humans compared to Dwarves and Orcs. Implementing Elves is quicker and easier to do than Dwarves and Orcs.
And Elves that look like Humans is quicker and easier to do than Elves that don’t look like Humans.
So you should expect an Alpha to have Elves that look like Humans.
Similarly, you should expect a team of EQ/EQ devs to start with Dwarves that look like EQ Dwarves because that’s what they know got to make. It’s going to be quickest and easiest for them to create Dwarves that look like EQ Dwarves so that’s what you should expect to see in an Alpha.
Similarly, if the lead artist is European, I would not be as surprised that the default Human has European features. Easiest to create what you know best. I expect an African-American to have enough experience creating African-American characters that they could quickly and easily create African characters as the default.
An Alpha is not developed for what gamers are going to want to PLAY during the Alpha.
An Alpha is about getting basic stuff in so that the devs are able to TEST.
For an Alpha, Elves don’t need to be quickly and easily distinguishable from Humans.
Especially since it is typical in D&D for Elves to be indistinguishable from Humans if they’re fully clothed and wearing helmets.
Because Elves looking similar to Humans in an ALPHA is not going to effect the TESTING.
Wood Elves are often depicted by horns, green armour, leaf armour or distinctive nature armour rather than their ears:
Night Elves in WoW have purple skin and long, pointy ears. They would still be seen as Human in Full Plate Armour:
Night Elves wear distinctive armour much like the wood elves:
High Elves can also appear to be humans if they wore human armour. High Elf Armour is distinctive, much like Night Elves in WoW and Wood Elves in other IPs.
These High Elves could be mistaken for Humans if they wore helmets with their robes:
Dark Elves from Lineage 2 also have blueish/grey skin but could be mistaken for Humans in full plate armour.
Dark Elves also have distinctive armour, much like Wood Elves, High Elves and Night Elves:
In most IPs, Elves are proportioned like Humans and could be mistaken for Humans if the Elf wanted to appear like a Human. Elves have great pride however, and dress like individuals when they choose to show their heritage. I believe Ashes has the right idea behind the flavours. In reality, Ashes only has Wood Elves (Py-Rai) and High Elves (Empyrean) and both of these races will have personal architecture, personal Lore and personal Armour Styles.
If you want to buy Generic Cosmetics which can fit all races, then you will appear like other races. If you want to be individualised or a match for your kinsfolk then you should aim for Racial Transmogs and Racial Armours/Appearances.
Edit: Spelling mistakes.
Elves have had a pretty broad interpretation. Some taller than the average human, some much smaller. They are the Others in the wood. The stranger your mother tells you to beware of. Some will like human only to be betrayed by a feature or two. Pointed ears, not necessarily large. Odd eyes in terms of shape, color or iris. A beauty that doesn’t look right by human standards.
And what should the feel be? It ranges from Santa’s elves to a Lovecraft style horror (especially when you dig into some of the older stories).
For physique, they tend to generally be thinner than the average human but not weaker and are much more agile
For the races in general, I would hope they have the full range of human variation. Likewise having the same degree of diversity in the other races would be a good thing. That said, I think you need an economic system for the extreme ends of the spectrum otherwise you are going to see a lot of 7 foot or 4 foot humans. Does size affect stats or combat mechanics? Perhaps the type of variation is dependent on your starting biome?
Provide players with options to make decisions that may have consequences. Isn’t that the real theme of this game?
@Dygz FFS, at what point of this conversation have I or anyone said anything about this needing to be done for the Alpha???
Seriously man, you're being ridiculous.
Everyone here understands that these issues -- and possible requested changes -- are meant to be for whenever the game launches. If the feedback provided prompts Intrepid to enact any changes, they could be implemented as late as Beta-2.
There are however, distinct differences between Santa's Elves, High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves and Night Elves. Much the same as there are differences between High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves and Night Elves. For a start each would worship a different Deity and each have different preferences. Can all this be accommodated from simple appearance? No, it can't be. Can you mould an Elven Character into a feasible pigeon hole? Yes, you could.
....Or we could make them 1/8 the size of humans. You know - like folktale Elves that make shoes for cobblers, or toys for Santa. They would *definitely* stand out and be recognizable as Elves, if they were 9 inches tall....
And you wouldn’t continue to argue just to find something to argue about.
Vhaeyne has come around to understand we are basically on the same page.
Uncommon Sense has come around to understand we are basically on the same page.
But you want to continue to make up stuff to argue about. And I am just trying to explain to you what you seemingly don’t understand and have you correctly mirror back what I wrote.
What you wrote is that you should not have to use sliders to make an Elf look like an Elf.
The current Elves in the Alpha already look like Elves. If you want to be able to make Elves look unmistakenly like an Elf - the elfiest Elf possible - you will do that with sliders. Because the base model is going to look like Steven’s vision of Pathfinder Elves. And like EQ/EQ2 Elves.
If you can’t understand that or don’t like that, that is a hell of your own making.
I agree with you. I believe the elves should also be a bit taller compared to the other races
Am I just so used to seeing thick bulky Orcs and short fat dwarves that my nostalgia can't let me see the potential for something new and unique? Probably haha. I get the feeling that everything we are being shown is based around the word "fancy". Fancy mounts, fancy races, fancy dwarves that flip when they jump. I want GRIT and ROUGH character models. I am going through a portal to beat the shit out of people and claim land for myself. I don't care about cosmetics or how cute mounts are....I want blood. I want war and turmoil, not rainbows in the cow level.
I think the fact that the majority of the races have a nearly identical silhouette is just visually boring.
I understand most fantasy races are just lightly modified humans but I'd like to see the ones in AoC go a bit more in the fantastical direction.
Character creator should eventually allow you to get bulkier. But, we’re currently in an Alpha One Preview.
Except if this is what they're basing their races on, the current default presets seen in live streams etc, all look like the human or half elf (except the dwarves who look like squarish gnomes)
And seeing the concept art for orcs, it's not looking like they're as built as the one in the image you posted here either.
I didn't quote the post but it was written in response to the Santa's Elf Post. I have no concerns over Pathfinder Elves, Pathfinder Humans, Pathfinder Dwarves or Pathfinder in general.
Besides that? Looking for what Intrepid is going for, I can't think of any better additions
But perhaps its their intented goal to have the races be kinda "sameish" in how they are rigged and look so its easier to make cosmetics for them. This seems to be a quite cosmetic driven game.
It's kind of weird to me how the combat in AoC is so over-the-top w/ it's SFX yet Intrepid has gone fairly basic as far as developing it's own style. There's actually very little (visually) about the game that really stands out.
I understand that, but this is also a highly magical world w/ alien space gods whose corruption has seeped into nearly every aspect of it.
There's no real reason that even offshoots of a race can't be visually distinct on their own.
It's not really going for its own style in terms of the player races... except adding more irl diversity with the Polynesian Nikua... and the Tulnar.
Corruption has not affected the player races.
Orcs, Elves, Dwarves and Humans have only been back on Verra for maybe a year after being on a non-magical world for thousands of years.
As you and I already discussed the lore isn't set in stone and regardless of how it's explained the point still stands that visually the game looks generic as hell.
There's not a single system in AoC that requires the races to look so homogenized and I'd like to see some push towards a unique style as Intrepid picks up more talent. It doesn't have to go as far as WoW or Corepunk but the architecture shouldn't be the most notable difference between the races.
It's just like when you look at Elyon and see yet another Korean MMO...it immediately brings down people's expectations for an original experience.
Appearances are still going through some iterations.
However it is that the player races appear to be at launch - it won't be due to Corruption.
Racial differences appearance-wise will be armor/costumes as well as architecture.
The Nikua will have some appearance differences from the Dunir... in the most recent concept art, the Nikua appear to be thinner than the Dunir.
Elves will have pointed ears - how long the ears will be able to get we don't know, but the concept art suggests that won't matter when they wear helmets.
The original experience for Ashes of creation is not really focused on how different the player races can look from each other - except for the Tulnar. That is not an intended hook for Ashes of Creation.
I'm sorry I didn't realize I was talking to Intrepid staff.
The game is still in A1 and there's no point in saying anything is truly cemented until launch. Even then retcons do exists and if the game lasts for any decent amount of time they will likely happen so changing the lore to allow for some form of visual originality is possible.
I don't agree that armor should be how we differentiate the races. Armor should add to a races aesthetic not be the primary focus. I'm not looking to roll a suit of Armor I'm looking to play a character in a fantasy world and they should be able to stand out from different races when fully naked. ESO gets away w/ it b/c the vast majority of their races are arguably ethnicities but, like I said, there's nothing really like that in AoC