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Range display #combatthings

13

Comments

  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    WoW Players use Addons and DPS Meters. I have used DPS Meters but Addons to explain what Bosses are doing, what moves to use and when to cleanse targets are little else other than cheats. These same people with these cheats would not allow me to raid with them unless I used said addons too. It is the difference between a DPS Meter and a Comprehensive Combat Tracker. A Comprehensive Combat Tracker is like an Aim Bot in FPS. I used to watch Asmongold until I saw Asmongold raid. We would be better off without gamers that require Comprehensive Combat Trackers to be competitive.

    I can see your point but Asmongold has been and will be a big source of revenue for the game and his opinions might influence Steven a little bit more because of that. It will be hard not to cater to a such a large player base.

  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I can see your point but Asmongold has been and will be a big source of revenue for the game and his opinions might influence Steven a little bit more because of that. It will be hard not to cater to a such a large player base.

    Yeah, I don't care if WoW players come to play Ashes. I would hope streamers will announce their server so I can avoid them. Yet, WoW players will vie for addons, ui enhancements and DPS Meters even more than we have seen in the past. I doubt WoW players will last long without these QoL Improvements or a lack of a PvP toggle.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure Steven does not share your UI philosophy.
    Steven seems to want a fairly clean and streamlined UI.
    And Steven also does not appear to like number displays.
    .

    You like to keep bringing up what Steven said like its the holy scripture or something. So what he says things , but if majority of people don't like his idea , he will change it. Nothing is set in stone as many people here have told you.
    I do. Because that is the game design.
  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2021
    Dygz wrote: »
    I do. Because that is the game design.

    You can't use what he says to support your argument , his ideas have no permanency , its open to change. People really invested in this game already knows what his current plans mostly are , they don't need be told about them when they are suggesting their own opinions of what they would like to see in the game.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Maezriel wrote: »
    It's not about what I like vs what you don't like.
    Even if Steven does prefer a hyper minimal UI Intrepid can't ignore that some people are colorblind so numeric elements such as health/mana and range trackers are simply necessary from an accessibility standpoint.
    This thread is about what we like.
    The devs will decide what they will do to help people who have colorblindness, but it seems like there are plent of MMORPGs and other games that fair just fine without range trackers.
    If you can convince Steven to add them...great.


    It's also weird how there's a sliver of the community that is so terrified of basic UI elements being used as a "crutch" that they seem to forget that the entire point of crutches is to allow those that need them to perform tasks others might view as basic. (I'm not saying this about you specifically, you just happen to be very active for the moment)
    That is an argument I make about mini-maps.
    I don't consider a ranger tracker to be a basic UI element.
    I've been playing MMORPGs for two decades and can't recall an MMORPG I've played that includes them as a basic UI element.
    There are UI minimalists. I don't know why you act like UI minimalists are not allowed to share their opinions.
    People will disagree here on the forums and the devs will wade through and decide what the will and won't do.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2021
    Maezriel wrote: »
    We don't know what Intrepid's plan for colorblind accessibility is.
    We don't know. Which is why it's great that you brought that up.
    The devs will read that and it will be on their radar - "What should we do to support colorblind players?"


    I'm more than happy to hear other solutions and come to a middle ground on things, but the consistent "No" or "Steven said..." that's stated in most of these types of threads leaves little room for that conversation and it's not my job to post compromises to my own ideas while others in the thread simply dig their heels in.
    It's not my job to come up with an alternative. I hope whatever the solution is, it does not include more numbers in the UI. The fewer numbers the better.


    Even in this thread no one has presented a valid argument for why a range indicator would be degenerate to the game...even in Classic WoW where newer Hunters used them to juggle melee and gun range the finder was never the reason I would lose a fight. Those that don't want it lose literally nothing by it being a toggle
    If they add a range finder to potion launchers, specifically - I might not mind that.
    But, the way potion launchers worked in APOC, accuracy was not really the goal.
  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Dygz Its not really sharing a opinion when you trying to beat people over the head with the current design book which you really cant do since you have no idea what's going to be change in the near future.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2021
    You get to think what you want.
    I can say what I want - and will.
    Nothing I say has to convince anyone. And it's not my goal to convince anyone.
    I do like to make sure people can accurately mirror back what I wrote when they attempt a rebuttal.
    And I do like to make sure that dev quotes are included so that everyone understands the devs' intentions.
    I have a better idea of the kinds of things that can change than you do, but... we can look back when/if the game launches and see how much changes from the game design and when the game releases.

    You can, of course, continue to promote the idea that anything can change.
    Just as you can say the Earth is flat.
    It's a free world.
  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two

    Dygz wrote: »
    I have a better idea of the kinds of things that can change than you do, .

    Yes I know you think you are better at game design then anyone else , doesn't mean it is true.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2021
    I am not better at game design than anyone. I am quite good at game development - especially evaluating game dev schedules - because I did that professionally for over 10 years with an excellent track record.
    We can look back when/if the game launches to see how accurate I've been.
  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I am not better at game design than anyone. I am quite good at game development - especially evaluating game dev schedules - because I did that professionally for over 10 years with an excellent track record.
    We can look back when/if the game launches to see how accurate I've been.
    Dygz wrote: »
    I know better than Steven, yeah. Just as I knew he would not be able to launch the game before 2020.
    Because I've been a game dev longer than he has.
    But, hit me up when Steven drastically changes the way augments work.

    I love your contradictions. :D

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2021
    Yep. That is game development; not game design.
    No contradiction. As usual.
  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Yep. That is game development; not game design.
    No contradiction. As usual.

    Nope you made that quote because people were giving opinions about changes to game design of tanks. It was about game design , not about development.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    No. I did not make that statement because "people were giving opinions about changes to game design of tanks.'
    You just have poor reading comprehension and like to make shit up and then believe your own delusions.
  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2021
    Dygz wrote: »
    No. I did not make that statement because "people were giving opinions about changes to game design of tanks.'
    You just have poor reading comprehension and like to make shit up and then believe your own delusions.

    Yes you did , you gave that opinion because you think the game will be vaporwere if Steven made the changes that people wanted in game design. Its all about game design and thinking you know better then Steven and everyone else in what you think is achievable or not in game design.
  • FerniFerni Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I don't consider a ranger tracker to be a basic UI element.
    I've been playing MMORPGs for two decades and can't recall an MMORPG I've played that includes them as a basic UI element.

    What about TERA, Archeage or Aion? I think these have a range tracker in UI by default. Were there reasons to add this to the interface or was it a bad design?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I was talking about the image in the OP.
    Not the image you posted right after - I barely even noticed your post.

    I think Aion is poor design. Yes.
    And I think the devs are not going to want the UI to be as cluttered as TERA.

    The current Ashes UI with an Archeage range tracker could be OK, but still the fewer numbers the better.
    I think the current Ashes UI with a TERA range tracker would be superfluous and distracting. But...I would have to play that to know for sure.
    And still...a hard no to that WoW image in the original post.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yes you did , you gave that opinion because you think the game will be vaporwere if Steven made the changes that people wanted in game design. Its all about game design and thinking you know better then Steven and everyone else in what you think is achievable or not in game design.
    No. I didn't.
    I made that observation specifically in response to your assertion:
    "The point is if majority of players think tank/x is not satisfying enough and want x/tank to have some viability, Steven is not going to say to the players well too bad this my vision for my game. Devs will make the changes to make the players happy ."
    That is not about game design. That is about game development.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Dygz why are you determined to only read bits and pieces of my comments?

    This is now my third time saying I personally am a UI minimalist. I do not show a lot on my UI and just to really make it clear, my UI is relatively blank...but just b/c I'm a minimalist doesn't mean I can't understand why others would want a specific tool to help them out. I'm not a better player b/c I require less information and they're not a worse one for requesting something specific.

    You're allowed to disagree, you're allowed to not like something, but there's a keen difference between a conversation (where usually the goal is to come to a reasonable middle ground) and what you've been doing which is standing on the side w/ a drum chanting "I don't like it" over and over.

    You not liking it is resolved w/ it being a toggle, which if you're as good of a developer as you said you were you would know it's pretty easy to add in.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    One thing to keep in mine that the few people talking on the forums is nothing to the tidal wave of wow players Asmongold is hyping up on this game and all the demands for such things.

    WoW Players use Addons and DPS Meters. I have used DPS Meters but Addons to explain what Bosses are doing, what moves to use and when to cleanse targets are little else other than cheats. These same people with these cheats would not allow me to raid with them unless I used said addons too. It is the difference between a DPS Meter and a Comprehensive Combat Tracker. A Comprehensive Combat Tracker is like an Aim Bot in FPS. I used to watch Asmongold until I saw Asmongold raid. We would be better off without gamers that require Comprehensive Combat Trackers to be competitive.

    Stop man. This weird sense of elitism from people who've obviously never stepped foot into a mid level raid, let alone a high level, is just embarrassing.

    Blizzard has been designing it's raids around the use of DBM since Wrath which is exactly why they've been able to make them wound as tight as a clock and still have them be clearable. No one on this planet is clearing Mythic Nathria w/o a DBM style mod and saying it's "cheating" does nothing but scream your ignorance on the subject.

    Rather than looking at something that AoC will never, ever, have it's far better to turn towards PvP where you see world class Arena players using just the default UI. Do some take it way over the top? For sure, but they still have lost to players rocking the same basic UI Blizz developed in 2004.

    It is insanely unlikely we'll need anything as advanced as DBM to clear bosses designed for world PvP so this odd fear of addons becoming "necessary" that's found throughout this forum is little more than an unfounded phobia.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    [rs well too bad this my vision for my game. Devs will make the changes to make the players happy ."
    That is not about game design. That is about game development.

    The whole conservation in that thread is about game design , you never mention your expertise in "development" you were talking about design changes and thinking you know better about it. Saying you are a better game dev then Steven can apply to game design not just game development because you never specified the difference in such.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2021
    Maezriel wrote: »
    This is now my third time saying I personally am a UI minimalist. I do not show a lot on my UI and just to really make it clear, my UI is relatively blank...but just b/c I'm a minimalist doesn't mean I can't understand why others would want a specific tool to help them out. I'm not a better player b/c I require less information and they're not a worse one for requesting something specific.
    I don't know that it matters whether or not you are a minimalist.
    I don't think I accuse you of being a maximalist.
    There is more than one way to skin a cat. I don't believe the only solution to the problem you posit is numbers.


    You're allowed to disagree, you're allowed to not like something, but there's a keen difference between a conversation (where usually the goal is to come to a reasonable middle ground) and what you've been doing which is standing on the side w/ a drum chanting "I don't like it" over and over.
    I don't have to come up with a middle ground, though.
    The devs are free to come up with a middle ground if they choose to.
    I stated my disapproval (actually specifically of the WoW image in the original post) and then, when asked why, I gave some explanation of why. That's it.


    You not liking it is resolved w/ it being a toggle, which if you're as good of a developer as you said you were you would know it's pretty easy to add in.
    The devs can add in range trackers regardless of whether I like it.
    I don't think they will do that with numbers because they seem to not even want numbers on the health and mana bars at launch.
    But, the devs can figure out how to resolve the problems you posit if they decide they want to do that. They might do so with numbers or they might find some other way. I may or may not like that other way.
    I don't have to like everything in the game.
    I agree, if the devs want to implement range trackers with numbers, that is easy to do and would not negatively impact the schedule significantly.
  • ConradConrad Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2021
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    One thing to keep in mine that the few people talking on the forums is nothing to the tidal wave of wow players Asmongold is hyping up on this game and all the demands for such things.

    WoW Players use Addons and DPS Meters. I have used DPS Meters but Addons to explain what Bosses are doing, what moves to use and when to cleanse targets are little else other than cheats. These same people with these cheats would not allow me to raid with them unless I used said addons too. It is the difference between a DPS Meter and a Comprehensive Combat Tracker. A Comprehensive Combat Tracker is like an Aim Bot in FPS. I used to watch Asmongold until I saw Asmongold raid. We would be better off without gamers that require Comprehensive Combat Trackers to be competitive.

    Stop man. This weird sense of elitism from people who've obviously never stepped foot into a mid level raid, let alone a high level, is just embarrassing.

    Blizzard has been designing it's raids around the use of DBM since Wrath which is exactly why they've been able to make them wound as tight as a clock and still have them be clearable. No one on this planet is clearing Mythic Nathria w/o a DBM style mod and saying it's "cheating" does nothing but scream your ignorance on the subject.

    Rather than looking at something that AoC will never, ever, have it's far better to turn towards PvP where you see world class Arena players using just the default UI. Do some take it way over the top? For sure, but they still have lost to players rocking the same basic UI Blizz developed in 2004.

    It is insanely unlikely we'll need anything as advanced as DBM to clear bosses designed for world PvP so this odd fear of addons becoming "necessary" that's found throughout this forum is little more than an unfounded phobia.

    This is a fact. Quite literally many, if not all bosses since DBM was first made, are designed around DBM. One of many reasons why WoW is shit. Blizzard appealing to too many carebears which lead to this. (Not intending to be insulting or anything)

    I hope Steven doesn't bend the knee to addon beggars and instead chooses to just let us highly customize UI. From location of various elements to art/visuals. I want to be able to import Diablo UI elements and make my screen look fancy/badass xP

    ALSO, big no no to Trackers. Learn to adapt. This isn't a pve game, you're meant to use skill to win
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2021
    Saying you are a better game dev then Steven can apply to game design not just game development because you never specified the difference in such.
    LMAO
    No. That is just your poor logic and poor reading comprehension.
    The reply was specifically in response to your assertion about Steven making whatever changes to the game design a majority of players want in order to make players happy.
    Stating that is the quick road to vaporware is about game development; not game design.
    And I should not have to spell out the differences between the two for you to comprehend that.
    Anyway - this is too much of a derail. Take the last word on this here, if you feel the need.
  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    No. That is just your poor logic and reading comprehension.

    Ad hominem attacks are a sign that you lost the conversation. The end...
  • TacualeonTacualeon Member
    edited June 2021
    Zythtyz wrote: »
    Since when did "Having fun" equate to "Making the best decision possible based on all available data"?
    Since the word tactic and strategy were invented. Over two thousand years ago.

    There are two type of warriors:
    Those that win, and then engage.
    And those that engage, and hope they can win.

    ashes2.png

    There are two kind of gamers.
    The ones that like to analyze data to become good at combat, like some short of weakling side character in a story, and then there are the ones that know how to fight, get shit done, like the cool characters of the story.

    Sun Tzu would have a word with you.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Tacualeon wrote: »
    Good warrios win, and then engage.
    Bad warriors engage, and then they hope they can win.
    You probably can find both arquetype in this conversation, the Tactician and the dudebro that considers mental acuity a wealking trait.

    But in this situation, you are none of these things. Wit/Skill, would be you using your own skill, memory, spatial awareness, and experience with your abilities and how that act in battle, not an outside tool that removes the need for this. (assuming we're talking about range finders here)

    Now, these things are supremely USEFUL, just like a rangefinder tool as you fire a rifle downrange. But there is no world in which someone would consider you more skillful than someone who could do that same activity just eyeballing it through years of experience and practiced skill.

    En el mismo modo, la tradducion de google puede hacer esto posible, si tengo o no el conocimiento para hablar español. (I also realize this has some questionable grammar, i only speak spanish to my grandma's lol)
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Conrad wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    One thing to keep in mine that the few people talking on the forums is nothing to the tidal wave of wow players Asmongold is hyping up on this game and all the demands for such things.

    WoW Players use Addons and DPS Meters. I have used DPS Meters but Addons to explain what Bosses are doing, what moves to use and when to cleanse targets are little else other than cheats. These same people with these cheats would not allow me to raid with them unless I used said addons too. It is the difference between a DPS Meter and a Comprehensive Combat Tracker. A Comprehensive Combat Tracker is like an Aim Bot in FPS. I used to watch Asmongold until I saw Asmongold raid. We would be better off without gamers that require Comprehensive Combat Trackers to be competitive.

    Stop man. This weird sense of elitism from people who've obviously never stepped foot into a mid level raid, let alone a high level, is just embarrassing.

    Blizzard has been designing it's raids around the use of DBM since Wrath which is exactly why they've been able to make them wound as tight as a clock and still have them be clearable. No one on this planet is clearing Mythic Nathria w/o a DBM style mod and saying it's "cheating" does nothing but scream your ignorance on the subject.

    Rather than looking at something that AoC will never, ever, have it's far better to turn towards PvP where you see world class Arena players using just the default UI. Do some take it way over the top? For sure, but they still have lost to players rocking the same basic UI Blizz developed in 2004.

    It is insanely unlikely we'll need anything as advanced as DBM to clear bosses designed for world PvP so this odd fear of addons becoming "necessary" that's found throughout this forum is little more than an unfounded phobia.

    This is a fact. Quite literally many, if not all bosses since DBM was first made, are designed around DBM. One of many reasons why WoW is shit. Blizzard appealing to too many carebears which lead to this. (Not intending to be insulting or anything)

    I hope Steven doesn't bend the knee to addon beggars and instead chooses to just let us highly customize UI. From location of various elements to art/visuals. I want to be able to import Diablo UI elements and make my screen look fancy/badass xP

    ALSO, big no no to Trackers. Learn to adapt. This isn't a pve game, you're meant to use skill to win

    WoW has a lot of problems but building it's raids around DBM isn't one of them. Second to the art, raids are one of the absolute best parts of the game and nobody who's actually run a raid at even a Heroic, let alone Mythic, level would say the addons are a crutch or cheating...they're integral to the game and them being an addon is what allows you to customize them to your specific role and goal. They're about as "carebear" as wearing armor is.

    The thing w/ AoC is that it flat out won't need anything like DBM b/c PvP will exist in nearly every boss fight which makes that kind of tool utterly useless which means conversations about them just about as useless.



    As for your comment on trackers, seriously, y'all gotta get over this weird PTSD from bad groups and DPS meters. Trackers are used to for character building not staring at in the middle of a fight. They're literally a tool for adapting to fights so you can see what your weak points are and there's no reason they can't exists to some extent in AoC so we're not forced to use paper and a stopwatch
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • ConradConrad Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Conrad wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    One thing to keep in mine that the few people talking on the forums is nothing to the tidal wave of wow players Asmongold is hyping up on this game and all the demands for such things.

    WoW Players use Addons and DPS Meters. I have used DPS Meters but Addons to explain what Bosses are doing, what moves to use and when to cleanse targets are little else other than cheats. These same people with these cheats would not allow me to raid with them unless I used said addons too. It is the difference between a DPS Meter and a Comprehensive Combat Tracker. A Comprehensive Combat Tracker is like an Aim Bot in FPS. I used to watch Asmongold until I saw Asmongold raid. We would be better off without gamers that require Comprehensive Combat Trackers to be competitive.

    Stop man. This weird sense of elitism from people who've obviously never stepped foot into a mid level raid, let alone a high level, is just embarrassing.

    Blizzard has been designing it's raids around the use of DBM since Wrath which is exactly why they've been able to make them wound as tight as a clock and still have them be clearable. No one on this planet is clearing Mythic Nathria w/o a DBM style mod and saying it's "cheating" does nothing but scream your ignorance on the subject.

    Rather than looking at something that AoC will never, ever, have it's far better to turn towards PvP where you see world class Arena players using just the default UI. Do some take it way over the top? For sure, but they still have lost to players rocking the same basic UI Blizz developed in 2004.

    It is insanely unlikely we'll need anything as advanced as DBM to clear bosses designed for world PvP so this odd fear of addons becoming "necessary" that's found throughout this forum is little more than an unfounded phobia.

    This is a fact. Quite literally many, if not all bosses since DBM was first made, are designed around DBM. One of many reasons why WoW is shit. Blizzard appealing to too many carebears which lead to this. (Not intending to be insulting or anything)

    I hope Steven doesn't bend the knee to addon beggars and instead chooses to just let us highly customize UI. From location of various elements to art/visuals. I want to be able to import Diablo UI elements and make my screen look fancy/badass xP

    ALSO, big no no to Trackers. Learn to adapt. This isn't a pve game, you're meant to use skill to win

    WoW has a lot of problems but building it's raids around DBM isn't one of them. Second to the art, raids are one of the absolute best parts of the game and nobody who's actually run a raid at even a Heroic, let alone Mythic, level would say the addons are a crutch or cheating...they're integral to the game and them being an addon is what allows you to customize them to your specific role and goal. They're about as "carebear" as wearing armor is.

    The thing w/ AoC is that it flat out won't need anything like DBM b/c PvP will exist in nearly every boss fight which makes that kind of tool utterly useless which means conversations about them just about as useless.



    As for your comment on trackers, seriously, y'all gotta get over this weird PTSD from bad groups and DPS meters. Trackers are used to for character building not staring at in the middle of a fight. They're literally a tool for adapting to fights so you can see what your weak points are and there's no reason they can't exists to some extent in AoC so we're not forced to use paper and a stopwatch

    Raids are pretty good content, but building them around DBM, is 100% a problem, and it also affects the raids significantly, to an extent where you NEED DBM in raids to actually do them or you have no idea tf is going on.
    Addons are not cheating. Addons in WoW are mostly for saving time to an extreme or telling you what to do.

    We are talking about addons. DBM is an addon and hence a valid point of argument.

    No, it has been proven time and time again that DPS Meters push for toxicity, and trackers help the players too much. People play damn well without them, it's just the lazy bones or those who don't give enough shit that use them
  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2021
    Conrad wrote: »
    [
    No, it has been proven time and time again that DPS Meters push for toxicity, and trackers help the players too much. People play damn well without them, it's just the lazy bones or those who don't give enough shit that use them

    Thing is toxicity will exist with or without addons , there will always be a meta of what is best and you don't follow that you will be gate kept from groups. Plus there is going to be huge influx of players used to having these things and they will be number crunching in or out of game. It really depends how much of disadvantage you will be against groups doing these things when winning is kind of important in this game.

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