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Range display #combatthings

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Comments

  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2021
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Stop man. This weird sense of elitism from people who've obviously never stepped foot into a mid level raid, let alone a high level, is just embarrassing.

    Blizzard has been designing it's raids around the use of DBM since Wrath which is exactly why they've been able to make them wound as tight as a clock and still have them be clearable. No one on this planet is clearing Mythic Nathria w/o a DBM style mod and saying it's "cheating" does nothing but scream your ignorance on the subject.

    Rather than looking at something that AoC will never, ever, have it's far better to turn towards PvP where you see world class Arena players using just the default UI. Do some take it way over the top? For sure, but they still have lost to players rocking the same basic UI Blizz developed in 2004.

    It is insanely unlikely we'll need anything as advanced as DBM to clear bosses designed for world PvP so this odd fear of addons becoming "necessary" that's found throughout this forum is little more than an unfounded phobia.

    It is not my fault WoW went for easy mode and made encounters which require an addon to explain exactly what's going on. Add LFR and LFG to the mix and you can see why WoW has lost millions of subs. You can claim elitism and claim people 'Haven't raided high level raids' but all raids are 'high level' when the appropriate expansions and item levels are in the game. Mythic Plus Groups are a joke - just re-run the same dungeons on a harder setting, and, I do not rate anything with a Comprehensive Combat Tracker as top tier.
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  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two

    Thing is toxicity will exist with or without addons , there will always be a meta of what is best and you don't follow that you will be gate kept from groups. Plus there is going to be huge influx of players used to having these things and they will be number crunching in or out of game. It really depends how much of disadvantage you will be against groups doing these things when winning is kind of important in this game.

    If it will exist either way, better to have a situation where people can report such toxicity, and have it actually have some teeth. If people want to number crunch out of game on a sheet of paper or some spread sheet, that's on them, and if they enjoy it, good for them.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Conrad wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Conrad wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    One thing to keep in mine that the few people talking on the forums is nothing to the tidal wave of wow players Asmongold is hyping up on this game and all the demands for such things.

    WoW Players use Addons and DPS Meters. I have used DPS Meters but Addons to explain what Bosses are doing, what moves to use and when to cleanse targets are little else other than cheats. These same people with these cheats would not allow me to raid with them unless I used said addons too. It is the difference between a DPS Meter and a Comprehensive Combat Tracker. A Comprehensive Combat Tracker is like an Aim Bot in FPS. I used to watch Asmongold until I saw Asmongold raid. We would be better off without gamers that require Comprehensive Combat Trackers to be competitive.

    Stop man. This weird sense of elitism from people who've obviously never stepped foot into a mid level raid, let alone a high level, is just embarrassing.

    Blizzard has been designing it's raids around the use of DBM since Wrath which is exactly why they've been able to make them wound as tight as a clock and still have them be clearable. No one on this planet is clearing Mythic Nathria w/o a DBM style mod and saying it's "cheating" does nothing but scream your ignorance on the subject.

    Rather than looking at something that AoC will never, ever, have it's far better to turn towards PvP where you see world class Arena players using just the default UI. Do some take it way over the top? For sure, but they still have lost to players rocking the same basic UI Blizz developed in 2004.

    It is insanely unlikely we'll need anything as advanced as DBM to clear bosses designed for world PvP so this odd fear of addons becoming "necessary" that's found throughout this forum is little more than an unfounded phobia.

    This is a fact. Quite literally many, if not all bosses since DBM was first made, are designed around DBM. One of many reasons why WoW is shit. Blizzard appealing to too many carebears which lead to this. (Not intending to be insulting or anything)

    I hope Steven doesn't bend the knee to addon beggars and instead chooses to just let us highly customize UI. From location of various elements to art/visuals. I want to be able to import Diablo UI elements and make my screen look fancy/badass xP

    ALSO, big no no to Trackers. Learn to adapt. This isn't a pve game, you're meant to use skill to win

    WoW has a lot of problems but building it's raids around DBM isn't one of them. Second to the art, raids are one of the absolute best parts of the game and nobody who's actually run a raid at even a Heroic, let alone Mythic, level would say the addons are a crutch or cheating...they're integral to the game and them being an addon is what allows you to customize them to your specific role and goal. They're about as "carebear" as wearing armor is.

    The thing w/ AoC is that it flat out won't need anything like DBM b/c PvP will exist in nearly every boss fight which makes that kind of tool utterly useless which means conversations about them just about as useless.



    As for your comment on trackers, seriously, y'all gotta get over this weird PTSD from bad groups and DPS meters. Trackers are used to for character building not staring at in the middle of a fight. They're literally a tool for adapting to fights so you can see what your weak points are and there's no reason they can't exists to some extent in AoC so we're not forced to use paper and a stopwatch

    Raids are pretty good content, but building them around DBM, is 100% a problem, and it also affects the raids significantly, to an extent where you NEED DBM in raids to actually do them or you have no idea tf is going on.
    Addons are not cheating. Addons in WoW are mostly for saving time to an extreme or telling you what to do.

    We are talking about addons. DBM is an addon and hence a valid point of argument.

    No, it has been proven time and time again that DPS Meters push for toxicity, and trackers help the players too much. People play damn well without them, it's just the lazy bones or those who don't give enough shit that use them

    Blizzard could not build raids as difficult to clear as Nathria w/o a tool like DBM and since it's not something that will ever need to exist in AoC using it as a basis for an argument is pointless. There are no "necessary" addons for PvP which is the primary focus of the game and a better place to compare too.

    It has not been proven time and again that meters cause toxicity. WoW groups are toxic period and it's largely b/c of your ability to min-max the group in a way that can never happen in AoC. When you remove all the barriers to building your dream group leaders start to use literally anything else they can to continue improving their odds of a win and that's why meters and trackers started being seen as extremely toxic.

    Intrepid could put a tracker in Village and higher level Nodes right by the training dummy so that those who like to crunch the numbers of their builds have a place to do so and it would not have a degenerate effect on those who prefer a more intuitive approach.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Stop man. This weird sense of elitism from people who've obviously never stepped foot into a mid level raid, let alone a high level, is just embarrassing.

    Blizzard has been designing it's raids around the use of DBM since Wrath which is exactly why they've been able to make them wound as tight as a clock and still have them be clearable. No one on this planet is clearing Mythic Nathria w/o a DBM style mod and saying it's "cheating" does nothing but scream your ignorance on the subject.

    Rather than looking at something that AoC will never, ever, have it's far better to turn towards PvP where you see world class Arena players using just the default UI. Do some take it way over the top? For sure, but they still have lost to players rocking the same basic UI Blizz developed in 2004.

    It is insanely unlikely we'll need anything as advanced as DBM to clear bosses designed for world PvP so this odd fear of addons becoming "necessary" that's found throughout this forum is little more than an unfounded phobia.

    It is not my fault WoW went for easy mode and made encounters which require an addon to explain exactly what's going on. Add LFR and LFG to the mix and you can see why WoW has lost millions of subs. You can claim elitism and claim people 'Haven't raided high level raids' but all raids are 'high level' when the appropriate expansions and item levels are in the game. Mythic Plus Groups are a joke - just re-run the same dungeons on a harder setting, and, I do not rate anything with a Comprehensive Combat Tracker as top tier.

    You call it easy mode but fundamentally have no idea what you're talking about. It's embarrassing man.

    You sound like someone who grew up watching action movies and then call Boxing "easy" b/c you don't understand what a real fight looks like.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2021
    Maezriel wrote: »
    You call it easy mode but fundamentally have no idea what you're talking about. It's embarrassing man.

    You sound like someone who grew up watching action movies and then call Boxing "easy" b/c you don't understand what a real fight looks like.

    I was considering returning to WoW before AoC has the Alpha 2 persistent test, but, if the game amounts to addons, dps meters, toxic people and repetitive grinds, I would rather not even bother.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Maezriel wrote: »
    You call it easy mode but fundamentally have no idea what you're talking about. It's embarrassing man.

    You sound like someone who grew up watching action movies and then call Boxing "easy" b/c you don't understand what a real fight looks like.

    Got some Elitism of your own sticking out there bud. I've played and cleared every WoW Raid at it's highest level of difficulty Since Vanilla, (Not including Shadowlands). There has been a steady march of lower difficulty in both the general game and raiding, by design. They have limited customization, removed skills, proficiencies, entire stat types, and more.

    And it is objective fact that having a system that tells you when to move, when to press buttons, what abilities are coming next, and where you need to go or stay is easier than doing the same activity without those benefits, using the bosses animations, tells, and discovered patterns.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    You call it easy mode but fundamentally have no idea what you're talking about. It's embarrassing man.

    You sound like someone who grew up watching action movies and then call Boxing "easy" b/c you don't understand what a real fight looks like.

    I was considering returning to WoW before AoC has the Alpha 2 persistent test, but, if the game amounts to addons, dps meters, toxic people and repetitive grinds, I would rather not even bother.

    Every MMO has toxic people regardless of the addons and dps meters. Addons are not the cause of WoW's PUG community being what it is, that's the LFG. If you want to avoid toxic people the single best way to do so is to be in a guild and avoid PUGs which will be true even in AoC

    As for repetitiveness, yea...WoW is one of the worst b/c Blizzard is obsessed w/ keeping you logged in each and every single day and wants to maximise your playtime at the expense of your enjoyment.

    For addons in general, the only one that's "necessary" is DBM or BigWigs. The issue is that many people download it and never open it...they're tools so you can track the parts of the fight relevant to you so you know where you need to be and when. WoW's raids are exactly like a clock and anyone being out of place will cause a wipe that costs hundreds (if not thousands) of gold in mats and the time of the other 19+ players in your group. DBM/BW doesn't make a fight "easier" it doesn't hold your hand it merely allows you to know what's happening during the fight so that you have a slim chance at a clear.

    If you focus on PvP you can do fantastically well w/ just the default UI...funny thing about anything competitive though is that the more you rise up the more you start digging in and fine-tuning your class/build which is where trackers come in. Do a lot of people blindly download and never really look at what they have? Sure...but it's not the hammer's fault when someone uses it on a screw.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yeah, I agree with you. From an exterior perspective the Comprehensive Combat Trackers do look bad. Its because we never used them when I used to raid. It is true the majority of my raid experience comes from other games than WoW. I have been curious for some weeks and I've watched a few WoW Raids on Youtube. I like the Heroic Difficulty level raids but I'm not a fan of Mythic Plus Dungeons. I only balk at the idea because you need to gain a high item level or iLevel which can be difficult solo and getting into an appropriate guild can also be difficult. My current guild doesn't play WoW.
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  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ventharien wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    You call it easy mode but fundamentally have no idea what you're talking about. It's embarrassing man.

    You sound like someone who grew up watching action movies and then call Boxing "easy" b/c you don't understand what a real fight looks like.

    Got some Elitism of your own sticking out there bud. I've played and cleared every WoW Raid at it's highest level of difficulty Since Vanilla, (Not including Shadowlands). There has been a steady march of lower difficulty in both the general game and raiding, by design. They have limited customization, removed skills, proficiencies, entire stat types, and more.

    And it is objective fact that having a system that tells you when to move, when to press buttons, what abilities are coming next, and where you need to go or stay is easier than doing the same activity without those benefits, using the bosses animations, tells, and discovered patterns.

    The best players on the planet cannot clear Mythic Nathria w/o someone in the raid having an addon to track timers and that is a fact.

    The constant comments of WoW being equated to Hello Kitty Island Adventure is the elitism that needs to be addressed. If you want to say you just don't like WoW do so, I'm by no means a white knight or fanboy...it's just disingenuous to build an opinion when you don't understand the actual difficulty of higher level content.

    Either way, it has nothing to do w/ AoC b/c (as I've repeatedly stated) DBM will never need to exist in the game b/c if Intrepid designed boss fights as tight as those found in anything beyond Wrath they'll never be cleared b/c of the inclusion of PvP.

    The vast majority of raids will be open world and I cannot foresee anyone having fun fighting bosses as complex as Yogg'Saron while at the same time having to deal w/ fighting other players.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • TacualeonTacualeon Member
    edited June 2021
    Ventharien wrote: »
    But in this situation, you are none of these things. Wit/Skill, would be you using your own skill, memory, spatial awareness, and experience with your abilities and how that act in battle..

    Agree with this.

    I just have some arguments against the last part.
    Ventharien wrote: »
    not an outside tool that removes the need for this. (assuming we're talking about range finders here)
    My points:
    Eyeballing the distance is something you do with yourself. Is not interactive gameplay. 👎
    Eyeballing creates no rules for interplay 👎
    There is no competition 👎
    It makes you tunnel vision in 250vs250.👎
    Tunnel vision is bad for mass pvp 👎

    I think gauging distance is an unnecesary waste of enegy that could be used for tactical interactive gameplay.
    Each player has a toogle that display range of 1-2 enemies.
    Boom! Fight with or against many becomes more engaging because you can fight wider and ahead.
    Tactic and strategy.

    I'm playing devils advocate here. I don't actually play ranged characters.
    But I do know that tactic and strategy means wide and ahead instead of tunnel vision. And I wish we could all have the opportunity to be tactical and strategical.

    Steven had a floating number 20 in his screen and Verra didn't felt apart.
    One or two more floating numbers on a toogle won't make it look like a Jetfighter like our friend would say.
    st1.png
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There won't be any Instanced Raids in Ashes. If you build an encounter to require third party tools which you do not encode into the game I consider the encounter to be poorly designed. It can be fun to beat a Raid when you know most others can't beat the raid, it can be fun in a PvX environment to have the top raid gear and thus dominate in PvP.

    The difference between us seems to be that I am a PvP Player first and foremost, and, I only raid when the raid armour is the best in PvP. Too many MMOs have different progression paths for PvP and PvE in which PvE Armour is not good for PvP. This is why I backed Ashes in the first place because the Armour is PvX which means I get to raid for the best armour for PvP.

    It can be difficult to discuss WoW Raids because people like to lord WoW raids over others and claim WoW is the best raiding MMO. WoW was a good raiding MMO but even the original raids have people using Comprehensive Combat Trackers. There is a wide appeal for the Classic Renditions and I have thought of returning to Classic TBC. I think most people dislike the direction of WoW raids and WoW in general.
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  • RocketFarmerRocketFarmer Member, Alpha Two
    Since we are talking about ranged attacks, assuming bows...

    Have a crafted attachment for bows for sights to indicate range. But then also require a draw, hold and aim mechanism that effects accuracy. In other words, no tab targeting for ranged attacks versus a single target. So an experienced bowman could approximate the range through the sites, and have the timing to efficiently draw, hold and aim to hit the target. It should be difficult.

    Penalize ranged attacks into melee close quarters fighting by at a minimum applying cover for allies in between the shooter and the target. Hardcore would be friendly fire. Risk versus reward.

    Standard AOE range attacks placed a go/no-go target on the ground. So there should be zero complaints on that.

    I don’t think there should be an auto-pilot mode to combat. So many things can apply to this. Even rotations can fall into this, and I am sure some will use macros for some of that.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Since we are talking about ranged attacks, assuming bows...

    Have a crafted attachment for bows for sights to indicate range. But then also require a draw, hold and aim mechanism that effects accuracy. In other words, no tab targeting for ranged attacks versus a single target. So an experienced bowman could approximate the range through the sites, and have the timing to efficiently draw, hold and aim to hit the target. It should be difficult.

    Penalize ranged attacks into melee close quarters fighting by at a minimum applying cover for allies in between the shooter and the target. Hardcore would be friendly fire. Risk versus reward.

    Standard AOE range attacks placed a go/no-go target on the ground. So there should be zero complaints on that.

    I don’t think there should be an auto-pilot mode to combat. So many things can apply to this. Even rotations can fall into this, and I am sure some will use macros for some of that.

    A GCD can brake macros, but you don't even want rotations in combat?
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • RocketFarmerRocketFarmer Member, Alpha Two
    Not saying no rotations. Just illustrating how the combo/rotations combined with macros can lead to one shot kill buttons. You can time the macro to time a GCD. Do you want all of that built into the HUD/UI? I’d say no, but there are always work arounds.

    I suppose you could use tape or a wet erase marker to mark your own range finders provided you collapse your field of view. Or have different marks based on relative field of view.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Not saying no rotations. Just illustrating how the combo/rotations combined with macros can lead to one shot kill buttons. You can time the macro to time a GCD. Do you want all of that built into the HUD/UI? I’d say no, but there are always work arounds.

    I suppose you could use tape or a wet erase marker to mark your own range finders provided you collapse your field of view. Or have different marks based on relative field of view.

    I think there's a pretty big gap between a range indicator and 5 ability macros. You can break those macros which is exactly what Blizz did in BfA which caused everyone to hate the GCD.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
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