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Bounties to Hunt

SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
With all of the thread activity on bounties and player behavior, what are going to be the benefits of actually PvPing in an open world MMO? What will be an incentive to be a heel/villain in someones narrative and actually PK someone?

It seems that it'll be titled on the end of the bounty side, but what about balance? What about walking in front of a purple fight as a Passive Player and deliberately trying to give someone corruption? How do you balance these scenarios?

It seems Intrepid has to consider that some of us are just old school and it really has nothing to do with being mean or griefing, rather if I'm in my grind spot and someone tries to shove me out the way, I am absolutely going to drop that player and if they bring their friends/guildies, I'll drop them too. It's just old school.

If theres a KOS list to hunt, people are going to hunt it. Does it really have to come down to keeping war dec's on an entire guild for the actions of one or two players?

I hope the corruption system is carefully crafted as to punish griefers however, doesn't completely shut down PvPing in the open world. There's more than one way to grief and two people flagged as purple calling in someone to stand between em to get killed to turn a player red should also be considered.

Some guilds want to protect their business interests, I know that I'll protect my guilds business interests such as farmers, crafters, etc that do not want to engage in open world PvP, even if that means me being an aggressor.

Just thoughts to consider.



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Comments

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Since the game is not balanced around 1v1 in the first place, the benefits are as described. You get some of the drops from the other person.

    You're asking the wrong question, in a way.

    When someone wants to run away from you, have you achieved your goal by being such a strong PvPer that they run?

    If 'an opponent who runs away' doesn't achieve your goal, then your goal is less supported.

    If your opponent chooses to die just to give you Corruption instead of escaping if they can, then there is probably a problem.

    Other than that, it's not an issue. You probably barely get to choose this anyway, since if you're a Mage, you'll lose to most Tanks, Rangers and Fighters, even if you get quite a bit better than them, and most Clerics and Summoners will just run away, etc.

    People will only care about open world 1v1 if they know the matchup is even, and they have nothing much to lose and can't escape, so probably about a quarter of the time at best.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited July 2021
    I dont think you have look at any previous threads that are concerned with the effectiveness of the corruption system or flagging safeguards.

    Do you rly think that they havent planned around accidental PK?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Karatos wrote: »
    It's just old school.
    So are VHS tapes, flip phones, music on cassette and monochrome computers.

    Just because it's old school, doesn't mean it needs to remain.

    If you are in a grinding spot, and someone comes along wanting to grind there as well, what is stopping you working with that person rather than against - so you both achieve your current goal faster?

    In many "old school" games, this wasn't really supported. The idea was for players to always be in conflict with each other - giving players a reason to work together is not really conductive to keeping your players in a state of conflict with each other.

    This is old school thinking and old school game development. There is no reason it needs to remain in a new game.

    With specifics in regards to Ashes, assuming you are a player of average or higher intelligence, you are probably grinding in an area that will see your node gain experience. As such, the person that comes wanting to grind in that spot as well almost definitely has that one goal in common with you - you both want that grinding spot because you both want to get experience to the node that the grinding spot will get experience to. As such, it is already in your best interests - at least in one regard - to at least leave that player to their own business and perhaps even to work together.
  • It is indeed a well crafted system. It will be quite hard to gain corruption unless you are being a dick, and it certainly will be ~impossible to build up enough corruption to drop your gear if you are not in fact being a dick. Killing players way below your level or players who refuse to fight back (there are resource drop consequences to dying without flagging PvP harsher than just doing your best fighting back I believe) are the only ways to build up corruption, and having a bit will not have a swarm of bounty hunters coming after you. In any case, we will see it in action with lots of time before launch to tweak it around. The bounty system is what I suspect will have its expectations changed by players, the corruption system should be fine I predict.
  • I find it difficult to comment on the corruption system before we know how the final tuning will look like as it will play a great deal in setting the balance between punishing real griefers or normal world pvp behaviour. If its overbearing and kills any and all ganking/spontaneous world pvp its gonna suck for people like me and OP here.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Karatos wrote: »
    What about walking in front of a purple fight as a Passive Player and deliberately trying to give someone corruption?

    Non combatants can lose materials on death. Now in the case of someone significantly lower level than yourself or who purposefully took a ton of damage w/ nothing in their inventory walked up to a fight in an effort to make either combatants corrupted there's absolutely nothing stopping the both of you from just walking away and denying the troll their fun.

    There's also no indication that Corruption will be so impactful that it only takes a single PK to ruin your day.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Karatos wrote: »
    What about walking in front of a purple fight as a Passive Player and deliberately trying to give someone corruption?

    Non combatants can lose materials on death. Now in the case of someone significantly lower level than yourself or who purposefully took a ton of damage w/ nothing in their inventory walked up to a fight in an effort to make either combatants corrupted there's absolutely nothing stopping the both of you from just walking away and denying the troll their fun.

    There's also no indication that Corruption will be so impactful that it only takes a single PK to ruin your day.

    You are getting carried away.
    The devs will not allow a passive player to delibatetly force a purple player to PK them, gaining corruption.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Karatos wrote: »
    What about walking in front of a purple fight as a Passive Player and deliberately trying to give someone corruption?

    Non combatants can lose materials on death. Now in the case of someone significantly lower level than yourself or who purposefully took a ton of damage w/ nothing in their inventory walked up to a fight in an effort to make either combatants corrupted there's absolutely nothing stopping the both of you from just walking away and denying the troll their fun.

    There's also no indication that Corruption will be so impactful that it only takes a single PK to ruin your day.

    You are getting carried away.
    The devs will not allow a passive player to delibatetly force a purple player to PK them, gaining corruption.

    I'm simply giving a what if scenario of a player going out of their way to try and subvert the system b/c it was something @George Black was asking about...so even in this near impossible scenario it's not going to really do anything.

    Although a more likely scenario would be someone trying to circumvent Corruption by ccing or drawing mobs into a noncombatant and watching the show as currently Corruption is applied on the death blow.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Azherae wrote: »
    You're asking the wrong question, in a way.

    No, I'm asking these questions with a twofold purpose. Everyone wants to be a bounty hunter, but in reality there's' going to be more bounty hunters then people who are corrupted.

    As of now I'm going off the wiki and the comments Steven has made. It's deliberately supposed to be an anti-griefing system. I just hope it's well crafted and doesn't stop some of us from hunting kos lists.

    I doubt that the balance is going to mean being disadvantaged means no chance in hell.

    Noaani wrote: »
    Karatos wrote: »
    It's just old school.
    So are VHS tapes, flip phones, music on cassette and monochrome computers.

    Just because it's old school, doesn't mean it needs to remain.

    If you are in a grinding spot, and someone comes along wanting to grind there as well, what is stopping you working with that person rather than against - so you both achieve your current goal faster?

    In many "old school" games, this wasn't really supported. The idea was for players to always be in conflict with each other - giving players a reason to work together is not really conductive to keeping your players in a state of conflict with each other.

    This is old school thinking and old school game development. There is no reason it needs to remain in a new game.

    With specifics in regards to Ashes, assuming you are a player of average or higher intelligence, you are probably grinding in an area that will see your node gain experience. As such, the person that comes wanting to grind in that spot as well almost definitely has that one goal in common with you - you both want that grinding spot because you both want to get experience to the node that the grinding spot will get experience to. As such, it is already in your best interests - at least in one regard - to at least leave that player to their own business and perhaps even to work together.

    If we were talking technology, I use new tech and the best computers. Old School PK just means I come from the full loot era and will be the better one to adopt in most situations, as I said in my thread. I will protect my assets so I wouldn't be destroying anyone inside the node I'm at.

    Conflict will be in Ashes as Steven as stated and resources are going to be limited. They won't be abundant and some resources will be in very specific places of the world. Probably not near a node of my own. Which is a bit of the source of this thread.

    All things to think about.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Okay, guess we'll know in a few months.

    I kept assuming you were talking about things like fair PvP, challenges, or building interactions within the game flow itself.

    If the main focus here is 'can I open world people on a list', sure.

    But my point was moreso that other people are going to just run away from you, if you're as 'old school strong' as you imply. This happens in every competitive game where there's no disadvantage to doing so, even in games where every 'encounter' is explicitly a 'duel' (fighting games, Absolver, etc)

    So there's no way a sensible player who knows they are even on a list, is going to stick around and PvP you unless they 'know they can beat you due to having class advantage'. And if they know that you have advantage, they'll run, and almost certainly get away.

    Like you said though, this is about 'a desire to bounty hunt'. So I assume you will spec into Ranger/Rogue or something that can actually keep up with and assassinate people regardless of if they run.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • GrihmGrihm Member
    edited July 2021
    Karatos wrote: »

    No, I'm asking these questions with a twofold purpose. Everyone wants to be a bounty hunter, but in reality there's' going to be more bounty hunters then people who are corrupted.

    As of now I'm going off the wiki and the comments Steven has made. It's deliberately supposed to be an anti-griefing system. I just hope it's well crafted and doesn't stop some of us from hunting kos lists.

    I doubt that the balance is going to mean being disadvantaged means no chance in hell.


    1: No, everyone does not.
    2: A KOS list is a personal thing, not a game feature. You can for sure have a list if you want, but that´s as said..personal, and you cannot expect the game to be catered around it.

    If you want to pursue your KOS list, then i´m sure you can do that in Sieges or what other options are available. Just going after someone because you think they are deserving of such, that is on you.
    In the end, it´s going to be words against words, so no one will really know what´s what part from you and your enemy.

    EDIT: If you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Yeah... I don't think the Bounty Hunting system will help you with your personal KOS list.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2021
    Grihm wrote: »
    Karatos wrote: »

    No, I'm asking these questions with a twofold purpose. Everyone wants to be a bounty hunter, but in reality there's' going to be more bounty hunters then people who are corrupted.

    As of now I'm going off the wiki and the comments Steven has made. It's deliberately supposed to be an anti-griefing system. I just hope it's well crafted and doesn't stop some of us from hunting kos lists.

    I doubt that the balance is going to mean being disadvantaged means no chance in hell.


    1: No, everyone does not.
    2: A KOS list is a personal thing, not a game feature. You can for sure have a list if you want, but that´s as said..personal, and you cannot expect the game to be catered around it.

    If you want to pursue your KOS list, then i´m sure you can do that in Sieges or what other options are available. Just going after someone because you think they are deserving of such, that is on you.
    In the end, it´s going to be words against words, so no one will really know what´s what part from you and your enemy.

    EDIT: If you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to.

    I mean, that's easy enough to conceptualize (not implement).

    When you are killed by someone and don't fight back, you get two items in your Inventory. Memory of Rage and Memory of Despair. These are just items with the killer's in game ID (backend) attached. These items are tradeable and also consumable.

    Using either item while engaged with the player whose ID is associated allows that player to be killed without Corruption even if they don't fight back. If you wanna be meaner, make it so it treats them as Corrupted, but only for you, unless they flag up.

    You can do a whole quest to change Memory of Rage + Memory of Despair to 'Grudge of the Sworn Enemy' which isn't tradeable but doesn't expire (has to be recharged or something).

    Someone griefing you to the point where you report them but the GMs can't quite justify a ban? You can request that you be granted Memories of them instead. Not strong enough to kill them yourself, or just don't want to? Hand the Memories off to your Bounty Hunter friend and sponsor them to go do the quest to get the Grudge.

    Now this person is KoS for whoever has the Grudge, no penalty. If they want to do the same thing, just gotta not flag up.

    Non stackable item. Must be in inventory and probably in hotbar to be used during the fight. So you can have as many Grudges as you want as long as you have the inventory space.

    New school is in.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Maybe it's just me, but I don't need special inventoried items or quests to know which player IDs are on my "Bounty List".
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2021
    Azherae wrote: »
    Okay, guess we'll know in a few months.

    I kept assuming you were talking about things like fair PvP, challenges, or building interactions within the game flow itself.

    If the main focus here is 'can I open world people on a list', sure.

    But my point was moreso that other people are going to just run away from you, if you're as 'old school strong' as you imply. This happens in every competitive game where there's no disadvantage to doing so, even in games where every 'encounter' is explicitly a 'duel' (fighting games, Absolver, etc)

    So there's no way a sensible player who knows they are even on a list, is going to stick around and PvP you unless they 'know they can beat you due to having class advantage'. And if they know that you have advantage, they'll run, and almost certainly get away.

    Like you said though, this is about 'a desire to bounty hunt'. So I assume you will spec into Ranger/Rogue or something that can actually keep up with and assassinate people regardless of if they run.

    No, I'm simply talking about people hunting corrupted people operating out of a military node, which is what bounty hunting is as a feature.

    It seems that there are going to be more bounty hunters than there are corrupted players.
    Grihm wrote: »
    Karatos wrote: »

    No, I'm asking these questions with a twofold purpose. Everyone wants to be a bounty hunter, but in reality there's' going to be more bounty hunters then people who are corrupted.

    As of now I'm going off the wiki and the comments Steven has made. It's deliberately supposed to be an anti-griefing system. I just hope it's well crafted and doesn't stop some of us from hunting kos lists.

    I doubt that the balance is going to mean being disadvantaged means no chance in hell.


    1: No, everyone does not.
    2: A KOS list is a personal thing, not a game feature. You can for sure have a list if you want, but that´s as said..personal, and you cannot expect the game to be catered around it.

    If you want to pursue your KOS list, then i´m sure you can do that in Sieges or what other options are available. Just going after someone because you think they are deserving of such, that is on you.
    In the end, it´s going to be words against words, so no one will really know what´s what part from you and your enemy.

    EDIT: If you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to.

    Between Bounty Hunters and corrupted players, there will be more Bounty Hunters than corrupted players I think. So when a Military node generates "hunt a corrupted player down list", there's going to be very little reason to go corrupted and a major feature for Military Nodes will defeat itself in purpose.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Karatos wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    You're asking the wrong question, in a way.

    No, I'm asking these questions with a twofold purpose. Everyone wants to be a bounty hunter, but in reality there's' going to be more bounty hunters then people who are corrupted.

    As of now I'm going off the wiki and the comments Steven has made. It's deliberately supposed to be an anti-griefing system. I just hope it's well crafted and doesn't stop some of us from hunting kos lists.

    I doubt that the balance is going to mean being disadvantaged means no chance in hell.

    Noaani wrote: »
    Karatos wrote: »
    It's just old school.
    So are VHS tapes, flip phones, music on cassette and monochrome computers.

    Just because it's old school, doesn't mean it needs to remain.

    If you are in a grinding spot, and someone comes along wanting to grind there as well, what is stopping you working with that person rather than against - so you both achieve your current goal faster?

    In many "old school" games, this wasn't really supported. The idea was for players to always be in conflict with each other - giving players a reason to work together is not really conductive to keeping your players in a state of conflict with each other.

    This is old school thinking and old school game development. There is no reason it needs to remain in a new game.

    With specifics in regards to Ashes, assuming you are a player of average or higher intelligence, you are probably grinding in an area that will see your node gain experience. As such, the person that comes wanting to grind in that spot as well almost definitely has that one goal in common with you - you both want that grinding spot because you both want to get experience to the node that the grinding spot will get experience to. As such, it is already in your best interests - at least in one regard - to at least leave that player to their own business and perhaps even to work together.

    If we were talking technology, I use new tech and the best computers. Old School PK just means I come from the full loot era and will be the better one to adopt in most situations, as I said in my thread. I will protect my assets so I wouldn't be destroying anyone inside the node I'm at.

    Conflict will be in Ashes as Steven as stated and resources are going to be limited. They won't be abundant and some resources will be in very specific places of the world. Probably not near a node of my own. Which is a bit of the source of this thread.

    All things to think about.

    I was more pointing out that old school things dont necessarily need to stay around.

    Sure Ashes will have conflict. A lot of it.

    However, Steven also wants Ashes to have diplomacy, politics.

    In the scale of individual players, this is simply talking to someone you come across to see if your goals align, and potentially working together towards them.

    Attacking a player that wants to grind in the same spot tou want to grind in is not automatically the best solution - and often times may be the worst course of action you could take.

    So, the old school idea of doing that as your first course of action doesnt necessarily need to stay around in Ashes.

    There will be times when you would want to do that, absolutely. However since the two of you likely have the larger goal of leveling up a specific node in common, there is already a reason to work together, rather than against each other.

    While resources in the game may be somewhat scarce, they wont be as scarce as metropolis level nodes.
  • GrihmGrihm Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    Grihm wrote: »
    Karatos wrote: »

    No, I'm asking these questions with a twofold purpose. Everyone wants to be a bounty hunter, but in reality there's' going to be more bounty hunters then people who are corrupted.

    As of now I'm going off the wiki and the comments Steven has made. It's deliberately supposed to be an anti-griefing system. I just hope it's well crafted and doesn't stop some of us from hunting kos lists.

    I doubt that the balance is going to mean being disadvantaged means no chance in hell.


    1: No, everyone does not.
    2: A KOS list is a personal thing, not a game feature. You can for sure have a list if you want, but that´s as said..personal, and you cannot expect the game to be catered around it.

    If you want to pursue your KOS list, then i´m sure you can do that in Sieges or what other options are available. Just going after someone because you think they are deserving of such, that is on you.
    In the end, it´s going to be words against words, so no one will really know what´s what part from you and your enemy.

    EDIT: If you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to.

    I mean, that's easy enough to conceptualize (not implement).

    When you are killed by someone and don't fight back, you get two items in your Inventory. Memory of Rage and Memory of Despair. These are just items with the killer's in game ID (backend) attached. These items are tradeable and also consumable.

    Using either item while engaged with the player whose ID is associated allows that player to be killed without Corruption even if they don't fight back. If you wanna be meaner, make it so it treats them as Corrupted, but only for you, unless they flag up.

    You can do a whole quest to change Memory of Rage + Memory of Despair to 'Grudge of the Sworn Enemy' which isn't tradeable but doesn't expire (has to be recharged or something).

    Someone griefing you to the point where you report them but the GMs can't quite justify a ban? You can request that you be granted Memories of them instead. Not strong enough to kill them yourself, or just don't want to? Hand the Memories off to your Bounty Hunter friend and sponsor them to go do the quest to get the Grudge.

    Now this person is KoS for whoever has the Grudge, no penalty. If they want to do the same thing, just gotta not flag up.

    Non stackable item. Must be in inventory and probably in hotbar to be used during the fight. So you can have as many Grudges as you want as long as you have the inventory space.

    New school is in.

    You can solve that in sieges and all other pvp options. You don´t need yet another.
    I know many are so eager to get to do what ever PVP they want ( They want ) in the world, but tell me this.

    How does another PVP option benefit me as a PVE and roleplayer?
    If you can ensure me of a way this benefits me, that has one area for my gamestyle " then sure... i can support you. But first... tell me the benefit this have for me.

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Grihm wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Grihm wrote: »
    Karatos wrote: »

    No, I'm asking these questions with a twofold purpose. Everyone wants to be a bounty hunter, but in reality there's' going to be more bounty hunters then people who are corrupted.

    As of now I'm going off the wiki and the comments Steven has made. It's deliberately supposed to be an anti-griefing system. I just hope it's well crafted and doesn't stop some of us from hunting kos lists.

    I doubt that the balance is going to mean being disadvantaged means no chance in hell.


    1: No, everyone does not.
    2: A KOS list is a personal thing, not a game feature. You can for sure have a list if you want, but that´s as said..personal, and you cannot expect the game to be catered around it.

    If you want to pursue your KOS list, then i´m sure you can do that in Sieges or what other options are available. Just going after someone because you think they are deserving of such, that is on you.
    In the end, it´s going to be words against words, so no one will really know what´s what part from you and your enemy.

    EDIT: If you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to.

    I mean, that's easy enough to conceptualize (not implement).

    When you are killed by someone and don't fight back, you get two items in your Inventory. Memory of Rage and Memory of Despair. These are just items with the killer's in game ID (backend) attached. These items are tradeable and also consumable.

    Using either item while engaged with the player whose ID is associated allows that player to be killed without Corruption even if they don't fight back. If you wanna be meaner, make it so it treats them as Corrupted, but only for you, unless they flag up.

    You can do a whole quest to change Memory of Rage + Memory of Despair to 'Grudge of the Sworn Enemy' which isn't tradeable but doesn't expire (has to be recharged or something).

    Someone griefing you to the point where you report them but the GMs can't quite justify a ban? You can request that you be granted Memories of them instead. Not strong enough to kill them yourself, or just don't want to? Hand the Memories off to your Bounty Hunter friend and sponsor them to go do the quest to get the Grudge.

    Now this person is KoS for whoever has the Grudge, no penalty. If they want to do the same thing, just gotta not flag up.

    Non stackable item. Must be in inventory and probably in hotbar to be used during the fight. So you can have as many Grudges as you want as long as you have the inventory space.

    New school is in.

    You can solve that in sieges and all other pvp options. You don´t need yet another.
    I know many are so eager to get to do what ever PVP they want ( They want ) in the world, but tell me this.

    How does another PVP option benefit me as a PVE and roleplayer?
    If you can ensure me of a way this benefits me, that has one area for my gamestyle " then sure... i can support you. But first... tell me the benefit this have for me.

    I actually don't care about this. You said "if you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to" so I came up with a system.

    If your point is 'justify your wish to me', I don't have a wish on this matter, was following on what you seemed to be saying.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • GrihmGrihm Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    I actually don't care about this. You said "if you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to" so I came up with a system.

    If your point is 'justify your wish to me', I don't have a wish on this matter, was following on what you seemed to be saying.

    You actually don´t care?
    My " point " is you have PVP options in plenty, and you do not need to add another. This is an MMORPG, not a fortnite match with only one purpose. I said if you could state how this would work side by side and not break the PVE side, then sure... i could be behind that. However, if you want it, you need to consider all sides, because we are sharing one game.

    Just wondering how you would say this is not getting in the way of pve or roleplay, and why cant you deal with this where PVP is the main focus?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I don't care at all. I don't PvP normally, if I did, I'd just accept the corruption.

    How it works on the PvE side? The other person had to kill me first. I actually meant that they had to do it in open world since that was what we were discussing, but I don't see much harm in it the other way either, it'd just be complicated.

    If a person keeps killing you whenever they see you, taking the Corruption, and then working it off, because they are higher level, or your class isn't built for PvP and can't fight back, you could give someone else one free pass to kill that player for you when they see them, no questions asked, no penalty.

    That person literally counts as 'my sworn enemy', RP wise. Or someone who protects me, gets to consider them 'sworn enemy' for doing that to me constantly when I can't fight back.

    I see this as entirely a benefit to PvE. Wouldn't you hate having to sit around at a dungeon's entrance because your nemesis who kills you constantly is just sitting there waiting for you to go in and then kill you when you start fighting? You could call someone more powerful to kill them, but that person might get Corruption and it could be a trap.

    I was suggesting 'the ability to exact vengeance on a killer even if they were no longer technically Corrupted'.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • GrihmGrihm Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    I don't care at all. I don't PvP normally, if I did, I'd just accept the corruption.

    How it works on the PvE side? The other person had to kill me first. I actually meant that they had to do it in open world since that was what we were discussing, but I don't see much harm in it the other way either, it'd just be complicated.

    If a person keeps killing you whenever they see you, taking the Corruption, and then working it off, because they are higher level, or your class isn't built for PvP and can't fight back, you could give someone else one free pass to kill that player for you when they see them, no questions asked, no penalty.

    That person literally counts as 'my sworn enemy', RP wise. Or someone who protects me, gets to consider them 'sworn enemy' for doing that to me constantly when I can't fight back.

    I see this as entirely a benefit to PvE. Wouldn't you hate having to sit around at a dungeon's entrance because your nemesis who kills you constantly is just sitting there waiting for you to go in and then kill you when you start fighting? You could call someone more powerful to kill them, but that person might get Corruption and it could be a trap.

    I was suggesting 'the ability to exact vengeance on a killer even if they were no longer technically Corrupted'.

    I see. But you will already be shielded in general as i have understood it. The ganker will be marked on the map for all to see, so you can be sure he/she will not be staying around for long to harass you.

    Is that solution not already the key?
    If you think that player will return, i would say it´s probably gonna take a while for them to work it off, and also, you could by then have another player with you as protection. That could be a bountyhunter by RP alone.

    If you start dealing out passes, that´s a slippery slope into abuse. Unless you develop a specific system to keep track on server logs as evidence for what he or she has done, it´s word against word.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2021
    Players with a high enough corruption score will be visible on the world and mini maps. These players will have markers posted on the map by an NPC from a Military node of at least stage 4 (Town), and will only be granted to players who have the Bounty hunter title.[26] The accuracy of bounty hunter maps is determined by a player's progression in the bounty hunter system.[27]

    A corrupted player can kill you and walk away. Especially if they are not near a military node or Tavern.

    They just get to escape.

    I am unsure, have you never experienced a 'KoS list'?

    Someone declares 'this person has offended or harrassed me (speaking toward their Guildmates), whenever you see this person, kill them immediately.

    People get put on KoS lists for any number of human reasons.

    The system offered was for 'when they maybe deserved it due to killing you'.

    If a PKer decided you were annoying for any reason and just instantly killed you whenever they encountered you in the world and then vanished, they escape, and if you have to log off, and they worked off their Corruption by the next time you can find them, you have to live with it. They have no reason not to just do it again if they feel like they will escape.

    Edit: I've just realized that the only reason I'm responding here is because I thought you might have misunderstandings (for example the italicized text). If you didn't, or still think I should 'prove the usefulness', assume I've disengaged because as noted... don't actually care.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • GrihmGrihm Member
    I see how you mean, but what if i simply get it in my mind that, Oh Azherae annoys me..and now i will put a bounty on that player and get a hunter a kill for free card. How will that not be abused?

    No, never been on a KOS list, never sat someone on one either.

    The thing is, you are very free to put someone on a KOS list, but you cannot expect the game to cater to it.
    The concept of World pvp is to ensure ganking is not a thing by a corruption setting. If you want to KOS someone, you can either do it in the open and take the corruption, or save it for PVP and go all in on that player to make your point.

    You say they can just walk away, or work off the corruption...but in what way? If they walk away, how does that stop you from going after, or sending people after? And working off the corruption... how long does it take?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Grihm wrote: »
    I see how you mean, but what if i simply get it in my mind that, Oh Azherae annoys me..and now i will put a bounty on that player and get a hunter a kill for free card. How will that not be abused?

    No, never been on a KOS list, never sat someone on one either.

    The thing is, you are very free to put someone on a KOS list, but you cannot expect the game to cater to it.
    The concept of World pvp is to ensure ganking is not a thing by a corruption setting. If you want to KOS someone, you can either do it in the open and take the corruption, or save it for PVP and go all in on that player to make your point.

    You say they can just walk away, or work off the corruption...but in what way? If they walk away, how does that stop you from going after, or sending people after? And working off the corruption... how long does it take?

    How would you get the Memory used to get the Grudge if I never killed you?

    If your point is that when you personally PK people, you don't want to be in danger if you work off your Corruption, that's fine, but it doesn't sound like that's what you want.

    Anyways, no need to respond to this one, sounds like your stance is clear. "KoS lists should not have a way to work without Corruption being risked". I've got no problems with this, the OP has concerns about it, so you can hash it out with them as you were previously doing.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Grihm wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I actually don't care about this. You said "if you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to" so I came up with a system.

    If your point is 'justify your wish to me', I don't have a wish on this matter, was following on what you seemed to be saying.

    You actually don´t care?
    My " point " is you have PVP options in plenty, and you do not need to add another. This is an MMORPG, not a fortnite match with only one purpose. I said if you could state how this would work side by side and not break the PVE side, then sure... i could be behind that. However, if you want it, you need to consider all sides, because we are sharing one game.

    Just wondering how you would say this is not getting in the way of pve or roleplay, and why cant you deal with this where PVP is the main focus?

    It benefits you because if you are farming and we do business, I would like to be the active aggressor in keeping you safe in say you being a farmer.

    -or-

    You're apart of a open world Boss fight and another PvE group comes into snipe the kill from you, I can flag and drop as many as possible and for sure earn corruption.

    My initial point was that I do not think we're going to see corrupted players as much as Bounty Hunters, but I can think of quiet a few ways a corrupted player is beneficial to PvE.
  • GrihmGrihm Member
    Karatos wrote: »
    Grihm wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I actually don't care about this. You said "if you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to" so I came up with a system.

    If your point is 'justify your wish to me', I don't have a wish on this matter, was following on what you seemed to be saying.

    You actually don´t care?
    My " point " is you have PVP options in plenty, and you do not need to add another. This is an MMORPG, not a fortnite match with only one purpose. I said if you could state how this would work side by side and not break the PVE side, then sure... i could be behind that. However, if you want it, you need to consider all sides, because we are sharing one game.

    Just wondering how you would say this is not getting in the way of pve or roleplay, and why cant you deal with this where PVP is the main focus?

    It benefits you because if you are farming and we do business, I would like to be the active aggressor in keeping you safe in say you being a farmer.

    -or-

    You're apart of a open world Boss fight and another PvE group comes into snipe the kill from you, I can flag and drop as many as possible and for sure earn corruption.

    My initial point was that I do not think we're going to see corrupted players as much as Bounty Hunters, but I can think of quiet a few ways a corrupted player is beneficial to PvE.

    But me saying " shoot that guy dead " is not really legit. It´s me being salty and paying you the high tier character to kill someone i don´t like.

    What you suggest may already be the way it is, due to you are in my group, i get ganked and you in my group kill my aggressor. If the players can put out an actual bounty, how is that not a big risk of being abused?

    We will for sure see a lot of corrupted player the day we go live, due to " reasons " and people just wanting to be " that one ". I do expect some will be active in going corrupted as much as they can, but no..i agree...not as many as actual bounty hunters. However... a bounty must be made from an ingame system, otherwise there will be no end to it.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Grihm wrote: »
    Karatos wrote: »
    Grihm wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I actually don't care about this. You said "if you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to" so I came up with a system.

    If your point is 'justify your wish to me', I don't have a wish on this matter, was following on what you seemed to be saying.

    You actually don´t care?
    My " point " is you have PVP options in plenty, and you do not need to add another. This is an MMORPG, not a fortnite match with only one purpose. I said if you could state how this would work side by side and not break the PVE side, then sure... i could be behind that. However, if you want it, you need to consider all sides, because we are sharing one game.

    Just wondering how you would say this is not getting in the way of pve or roleplay, and why cant you deal with this where PVP is the main focus?

    It benefits you because if you are farming and we do business, I would like to be the active aggressor in keeping you safe in say you being a farmer.

    -or-

    You're apart of a open world Boss fight and another PvE group comes into snipe the kill from you, I can flag and drop as many as possible and for sure earn corruption.

    My initial point was that I do not think we're going to see corrupted players as much as Bounty Hunters, but I can think of quiet a few ways a corrupted player is beneficial to PvE.

    But me saying " shoot that guy dead " is not really legit. It´s me being salty and paying you the high tier character to kill someone i don´t like.

    What you suggest may already be the way it is, due to you are in my group, i get ganked and you in my group kill my aggressor. If the players can put out an actual bounty, how is that not a big risk of being abused?

    We will for sure see a lot of corrupted player the day we go live, due to " reasons " and people just wanting to be " that one ". I do expect some will be active in going corrupted as much as they can, but no..i agree...not as many as actual bounty hunters. However... a bounty must be made from an ingame system, otherwise there will be no end to it.

    Well bounties are going to be issued from the game at military nodes after a player accumulates so much corruption.

    The KOS list is a personal list which gets the risk of corruption and that was more or less my point, I don't rPK (random Player Kill) all of my PKing is done with a purpose.

    I wont hesitate to attack someone prematurely if I know they're looking to kill farmers at my node or anybody whos farming that I do business with that's a nPK/nPvPr, I also wont hesitate go retrieving some contents of anyone whos been looted that asks me too. Provided they're a friend/business partner.

    and thats ultimately where I can see the system running into a problem, not everyone with corruption is doing mean stuff, they're simply protecting their interests.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Karatos wrote: »
    and thats ultimately where I can see the system running into a problem, not everyone with corruption is doing mean stuff, they're simply protecting their interests.
    If you are wanting to attack and kill a player in response to them attacking and killing harvesters or whoever, get those harvesters to ensure the player in question has a lot of corruption, then kill them in a way that actually hurts them.

    Being killed without corruption isn't a big deal. Being killed with a lot of corruption is. Use the fact that this person is attacking people that don't want to fight against them.

    Basically, be smart rather than just running in and taking action without thought.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    Karatos wrote: »
    and thats ultimately where I can see the system running into a problem, not everyone with corruption is doing mean stuff, they're simply protecting their interests.
    If you are wanting to attack and kill a player in response to them attacking and killing harvesters or whoever, get those harvesters to ensure the player in question has a lot of corruption, then kill them in a way that actually hurts them.

    Being killed without corruption isn't a big deal. Being killed with a lot of corruption is. Use the fact that this person is attacking people that don't want to fight against them.

    Basically, be smart rather than just running in and taking action without thought.

    I wouldn't have a problem with that except for the fact that the amount of times I'm going to kill a person is in proportion to amount of material and time lost. Killing a high corruption player doesn't equate into getting back all of that material because they can go mule everything they just gained and run around in crappy gear.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Karatos wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Karatos wrote: »
    and thats ultimately where I can see the system running into a problem, not everyone with corruption is doing mean stuff, they're simply protecting their interests.
    If you are wanting to attack and kill a player in response to them attacking and killing harvesters or whoever, get those harvesters to ensure the player in question has a lot of corruption, then kill them in a way that actually hurts them.

    Being killed without corruption isn't a big deal. Being killed with a lot of corruption is. Use the fact that this person is attacking people that don't want to fight against them.

    Basically, be smart rather than just running in and taking action without thought.

    I wouldn't have a problem with that except for the fact that the amount of times I'm going to kill a person is in proportion to amount of material and time lost. Killing a high corruption player doesn't equate into getting back all of that material because they can go mule everything they just gained and run around in crappy gear.

    I'd they are running around in crappy gear, they aren't doing anyone any harm.

    This is what I was saying earlier in the thread about the old school way of doing things not needing to be maintained.

    If someone is killing your friends, your goal is to hurt them. The old school way of doing this is to attack them, and that's about it.

    In Ashes, if you force this player to have to use shit gear for fear of losing quality item, you are already hurting him.

    However, you are still not factoring in the major component of the penalty for being killed while corrupt - experience debt earned at 4 times the standard rate..

    Now let's assume your friends are smart, and made sure this player had a LOT of corruption before calling you in (slipping in a few low level characters for him to kill, perhaps). Then you come along and get that first kill on him.

    All of a sudden, this player is in shit gear, with some slots empty, has experience debt along with the associated penalties, but also has corruption remaining, including further PvP penalties associated with that, and the further risk of losing more gear.

    Honestly, people that stick to the old school mentality are the people that are going to get harassed in Ashes. If I know you will attack me and gain corruption every time I attack your friends, all that does is give me ideas of ways to use that to my advantage.
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