This is the dumbest thread ever..
Devs please don't ruin the game with some SJW bs
I have to disagree. It has nothing to do with SJW nonsense in this case.
It is about allowing a respectable amount of player agency. Time and time again we sit down to create our characters only to have a limited amount of freedom based on some arbitrary lore that is rarely infallible.
Even in a game like Lord of the Rings Online. A game pulling from what is some of the most recognizable and well-known fantasy lore. Even in LOTRO you could make a black hobbit. Why? Because it allows for more player freedom, and it does not change the lore significantly or negatively. All it does is make the game more fun for more people.
To me, the only way to ruin a game is to chose lore over fun and player agency. If I just wanted pure lore, I would read a book.
The beauty of it is you can have plenty of lore written however you want. As far as gameplay goes it just comes down to the individual and doesn't have to actually affect the lore, allowing for players to play however they want.
I'm not sure what this means but it sounds to me like:
"Black people should not be allowed to be Kaelar. If black players want to play a Kaelar they should be happy having a light-skinned avatar instead of an avatar that is more similar to the appearance of the player."
Which traditionally has also meant...if a black person wants to play a Dwarf or a Halfling or an Elf they should be happy with a light-skinned character. Because everyone knows that Dwarves, Halflings and Elves are light-skinned instead of dark-skinned.
Yeah. I understand that you do. And recognize that it's perfectly possible to come to that conclusion. And sadly, probably in too many cases you would be correct.
My perspective is that .. well it goes back to the fact that I'm a bit of Elder Scrolls fan. And you know what my favorite humans are? Redguards. Who's image are mainly influenced by nothern and east Africa. Interestingly enough at least warrior culture is more inspired by feudal japan. So one thing they look cool. Secondly their martial culture is bad ass interesting and within the game lore they are the only ones who do not capitulate to Aldmeri Dominion, supremacist high elf faction.
There is so much more about Redguards which I'm not mentioning which captivating imagination, like sword singing, geomancy, first to gunpowder, naval capacity, unique take on "paladins" hell, even political / cultural struggles within, but I will cut short here.
I've red about Vaelune and got captivated by it probably by some similarities it had with Redgaurds. Namely carving their place in the world through hardship just like Redguards did when they came to Tamriel in Hammerfell and had to exterminate a lot of hostile fauna to settle. Namely, a place no-one else before could claim.
And you tell me that having them to tilt more towards darker complexions is not only bad, but somehow degrading (unless you want to implement full sliders to only some of the human races). If you analyze this like a total alien you would be forgiven to believe that the proposer thinks that there is something off with being of darker complexion. Now I don't think you do. But for a person who hold my frame of reference it may appear that way. As I'm devoid of the context you share and live in, the only idea space we share is that one of the game.
And that game has to speak to everyone. People like you, people living in north-east Europe, people in Japan in Egypt etc. To expect that devs can appeal to each and everyone is nigh impossible. As all contexts will be different, yet we somehow should find ways to discuss the game.
Which you did naming origin of Sanctum, which I think is more fit conversation to have. And that's a solid point we both can recognize and meaningfully engage with. And hence I haven't disagreed with the sliders all that much. It's just the framing and assumptions made about people's intentions which I felt to be off putting.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Um. If you go to Japan, you will find dark-skinned Japanese people. Just as if you go to Britain you will see British people of Asian descent.
Being light skinned does not prevent people from becoming Bantu or Maori. Skin color is not a factor.
Elf, Orc, Dwarf, Human and Tulnar are different species. Which has nothing to do with skin color.
Kaelar and Vaelune are different cultures. Which also has nothing to do with skin color.
I think what you mean is diversity is beautiful.
I haven't said anything about mixing things to be the same.
My Baldur's Gate 3 Dwarf is not the same as my BG3 Tiefling. They are both beautiful.
The systematic racism that has traditionally been in place in RPG fantasy settings promotes the concept of skin color being a primary factor of "race". Which is problematic.
D&D 3rd Edition finally removed the rules that restricted the skin colors associated with fantasy "species".
By 2021, it's time for MMORPGs to catch up.
"Race" has nothing to do with "common sense".
My grandmother was born Colored and died white.
In the hospital as a newborn, my niece was white if my brother was not present and African American if he was present.
A friend of mine told me a couple of days ago that her father was born Caucasian and died Asian.
"Common sense" has nothing to do with skin color being a factor of "race". And for thousands of years of Human history skin color had nothing to do with ethnicity.
You could actually become educated about the history of "race" instead of trying to rely on "common sense".
"Common sense" also leads some people to believe the Earth is flat. Just as it lead people to believe that the Sun circles the Earth and that the Earth is the center of the universe.
Ohm...what the actual *** are you talking about? I'm shocked...please next time keep this kind of nonsense for yourselfe.
I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:
Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.
I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:
Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.
Finally...I'm happy that not everybody is insane these days. Thanks Conrad you restored my faith in humanity.
I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:
Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.
Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"
I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.
Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?
I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:
Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.
Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"
I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.
Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?
Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.
I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:
Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.
Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"
I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.
Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?
Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.
Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?
I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:
Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.
Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"
I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.
Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?
Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.
less ways for me to be creative, less ways for me to make cool looking characters.
I find that shit to be fun.
You are talking to a guy who has spent more time in city of heros character creator than the game.
I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:
Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.
Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"
I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.
Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?
Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.
Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?
You are able to create a dark tan character. Just not an elf or a kalear...for example. So I see no problem here.
I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:
Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.
Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"
I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.
Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?
Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.
Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?
You are able to create a dark tan character. Just not an elf or a kalear...for example. So I see no problem here.
Oh I can't make dark tan elfs now? My intended alt? See now I would have actual literal skin in the game. Why do you want me to have less fun?
I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:
Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.
Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"
I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.
Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?
Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.
Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?
You are able to create a dark tan character. Just not an elf or a kalear...for example. So I see no problem here.
Oh I can't make dark tan elfs now? My intended alt? See now I would have actual literal skin in the game. Why do you want me to have less fun?
Okay, whatever...it seems I'm not able to understand what is your problem at all. If the caracteristic of your choosen race is to have dark or light toned skin, then accept it....thats all.
I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:
Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.
Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"
I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.
Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?
Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.
Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?
You are able to create a dark tan character. Just not an elf or a kalear...for example. So I see no problem here.
Oh I can't make dark tan elfs now? My intended alt? See now I would have actual literal skin in the game. Why do you want me to have less fun?
Okay, whatever...it seems I'm not able to understand what is your problem at all. If the caracteristic of your choosen race is to have dark or light toned skin, then accept it....thats all.
I like looking a certain way. I like the way I look contrasts with certain colors on armor. Does that help?
Small print leads to large risks.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes I understand, and it is fine, but the "born caucasian and died asian" line just killed me...nobody in right mind can actually believe this
I think its better to keep these nonsense far away from this forum.
"Race" is not "common sense".
Trying to determine race by skin color is not as simple as some people think.
My grandmother was born Colored but is light-skinned enough that the coroner assumed she was white.
Similar for my niece as a newborn at the hospital.
My friend's grandparents were Persian but her father was born and raised in Northern India. When he was born, he was classified as Caucasian and that is how he identified while he was alive. When he died, in the US (which is where my friend was born and raised), he was classified as Asian because he was born in India.
Nonsense is thinking that it should not be possible for any "race" to be dark-skinned.
There are, in fact, Scandinavians with dark skin and African features.
We will probably be able to create Elves and Kaelar with dark-skin. So, you're right, there is no problem.
I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:
Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.
Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"
I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.
Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?
Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.
less ways for me to be creative, less ways for me to make cool looking characters.
I find that shit to be fun.
You are talking to a guy who has spent more time in city of heros character creator than the game.
I don't have a particular preference in this discussion, but I will say that limitation is often the catalyst of true creativity.
I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:
Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.
Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"
I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.
Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?
Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.
Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?
You are able to create a dark tan character. Just not an elf or a kalear...for example. So I see no problem here.
Oh I can't make dark tan elfs now? My intended alt? See now I would have actual literal skin in the game. Why do you want me to have less fun?
Okay, whatever...it seems I'm not able to understand what is your problem at all. If the caracteristic of your choosen race is to have dark or light toned skin, then accept it....thats all.
I like looking a certain way. I like the way I look contrasts with certain colors on armor. Does that help?
There is no white Vaelune similarly as there is no black Kalear. Just like in real life subspecies. And I don't see what is the problem with it. If you want your caracter to be black, choose the correct race.
Unless a species of humanoid has the fruity flavors of demonic, draconic, angelic, elemental, faerie, or other odd ancestry they should be able to choose any skin tone within the range of what a normal human can be. I don't think you should be able to make yourself a Purple skinned human but I do think you could with a little demonic blood in your veins. You could also have a completely normal human skin tone with a demonic bloodline. I think this is a good balance to strike.
I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:
Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.
Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"
I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.
Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?
Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.
Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?
You are able to create a dark tan character. Just not an elf or a kalear...for example. So I see no problem here.
Oh I can't make dark tan elfs now? My intended alt? See now I would have actual literal skin in the game. Why do you want me to have less fun?
Okay, whatever...it seems I'm not able to understand what is your problem at all. If the caracteristic of your choosen race is to have dark or light toned skin, then accept it....thats all.
I like looking a certain way. I like the way I look contrasts with certain colors on armor. Does that help?
There is no white Vaelune similarly as there is no black Kalear. Just like in real life subspecies. And I don't see what is the problem with it. If you want your caracter to be black, choose the correct race.
Uuuuuuuuuuh ok. You know what I am just going to ignore this again. I thought you were trying to understand why I would have less fun in good faith. If we are back to demonstrably false 'middle eastern populations can't have white looking skin' thing then its not worth continuing the discussion.
Small print leads to large risks.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There is no white Vaelune similarly as there is no black Kalear. Just like in real life subspecies. And I don't see what is the problem with it. If you want your character to be black, choose the correct race.
In real life, any Homo Sapiens "subspecies" can have dark skin.
Kaelar are based on European culture. There have been dark-skinned Europeans pretty much ever since the concept of Europe.
"First introduced in the 1780s by members of the Göttingen school of history, the term denoted one of three purported major races of humankind (those three being Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid). In biological anthropology, Caucasoid has been used as an umbrella term for phenotypically similar groups from these different regions, with a focus on skeletal anatomy, and especially cranial morphology, without regard to skin tone. Ancient and modern 'Caucasoid' populations were thus not exclusively 'white', but ranged in complexion from white-skinned to dark brown."
Again, it's easy enough to become educated about the concept of "white" people. When and why that became a concept and also how skin color has historically been associated with ethnicity. And, again, you can learn about when certain ethnicities who are now considered to be white were excluded from being white.
There is no white Vaelune similarly as there is no black Kalear. Just like in real life subspecies. And I don't see what is the problem with it. If you want your character to be black, choose the correct race.
In real life, any Homo Sapiens "subspecies" can have dark skin.
Kaelar are based on European culture. There have been dark-skinned Europeans pretty much ever since the concept of Europe.
"First introduced in the 1780s by members of the Göttingen school of history, the term denoted one of three purported major races of humankind (those three being Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid). In biological anthropology, Caucasoid has been used as an umbrella term for phenotypically similar groups from these different regions, with a focus on skeletal anatomy, and especially cranial morphology, without regard to skin tone. Ancient and modern 'Caucasoid' populations were thus not exclusively 'white', but ranged in complexion from white-skinned to dark brown."
Again, it's easy enough to become educated about the concept of "white" people. When and why that became a concept and also how skin color has historically been associated with ethnicity. And, again, you can learn about when certain ethnicities who are now considered to be white were excluded from being white.
You're living in a dreamworld. But as long as you're happy I'm happy too...sooner or later you will realize you were wrong anyway...the sooner it is, the better for you...
Better to leave this to you, because it is leading the topic far from the original thoughts.
Honestly, the only gripe with the whole skin colour thing I have is elves having dark skin if not drow. If drow, I don't mind dark skin but on high or wood elves, dark skin would just be stupid. Like or hate me
You're living in a dreamworld. But as long as you're happy I'm happy too...sooner or later you will realize you were wrong anyway...the sooner it is, the better for you...
Bwhahahahahahahahaha. Well, I guess if you don’t see the issue, there must not be an issue. It’s unfortunate that the door to this ‘dreamworld’ is blocked behind all these books! The fire next time.
There is no white Vaelune similarly as there is no black Kalear. Just like in real life subspecies. And I don't see what is the problem with it. If you want your character to be black, choose the correct race.
In real life, any Homo Sapiens "subspecies" can have dark skin.
Kaelar are based on European culture. There have been dark-skinned Europeans pretty much ever since the concept of Europe.
"First introduced in the 1780s by members of the Göttingen school of history, the term denoted one of three purported major races of humankind (those three being Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid). In biological anthropology, Caucasoid has been used as an umbrella term for phenotypically similar groups from these different regions, with a focus on skeletal anatomy, and especially cranial morphology, without regard to skin tone. Ancient and modern 'Caucasoid' populations were thus not exclusively 'white', but ranged in complexion from white-skinned to dark brown."
Again, it's easy enough to become educated about the concept of "white" people. When and why that became a concept and also how skin color has historically been associated with ethnicity. And, again, you can learn about when certain ethnicities who are now considered to be white were excluded from being white.
Varies by how dark skinned you mean, Hispanic or Greek only had slightly darker skin. There were no black people living in European areas. There were merchants sure, cuz Egypt, India and other Arabian kingdoms, but besides that? In medieval times there was such a thing as Infidels and the ilk. Medieval era was pretty racist, but even despite that, people use medieval age for fantasy. Probably the rawest splice of humanity you can get.
There were no black people living in European areas. There were merchants sure, cuz Egypt, India and other Arabian kingdoms, but besides that?
Your assertion is just wrong. There were Africans throughout medieval Europe, even before the Moorish invasion of Rome in 846. Go do some reading then provide a more qualified assertion. 🤗
There were no black people living in European areas. There were merchants sure, cuz Egypt, India and other Arabian kingdoms, but besides that?
Your assertion is just wrong. There were Africans throughout medieval Europe, even before the Moorish invasion of Rome in 846. Go do some reading then provide a more qualified assertion. 🤗
Yes, like Numidian auxilaries in Legions of Rome. Who were granted citizenship through service and probably some even held some kind of office at some point.
That being said, the overall number wasn't significant. And probably most people living in their homelands didn't even seen people of different skin tones other than their own. Not a surprising thing, there weren't many Europeans in Mali empire either, with slight exception of Egypt for a while. And those People didn't travel that much back when outside of military campaigns, merchants who were always on the move or against their will being captured by Ottoman slavers who had step-hold in both Africa and Europe at the time.
Also, people in general were way more xenophobic at the time too. And in many cases not for trivial reasons. Like not having immunity to certain disease the new guy may be carrying.
There were no black people living in European areas. There were merchants sure, cuz Egypt, India and other Arabian kingdoms, but besides that?
Your assertion is just wrong. There were Africans throughout medieval Europe, even before the Moorish invasion of Rome in 846. Go do some reading then provide a more qualified assertion. 🤗
Yes, like Numidian auxilaries in Legions of Rome. Who were granted citizenship through service and probably some even held some kind of office at some point.
That being said, the overall number wasn't significant. And probably most people living in their homelands didn't even seen people of different skin tones other than their own. Not a surprising thing, there weren't many Europeans in Mali empire either. And those People didn't travel that much back when outside of military campaigns, merchants who were always on the move or against their will being captured by Ottoman slavers who had step-hold in both Africa and Europe at the time.
Yes, this sort of example I excluded because it was a very rare thing indeed. Its not like 100% no black people or anything, but the numbers were so insignificant either in ancient or medieval times that might as well no count it.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2021
But... possible.
This whole derail is in response to someone saying it should not be possible to have dark skinned Kaelar.
Comments
The beauty of it is you can have plenty of lore written however you want. As far as gameplay goes it just comes down to the individual and doesn't have to actually affect the lore, allowing for players to play however they want.
Yeah. I understand that you do. And recognize that it's perfectly possible to come to that conclusion. And sadly, probably in too many cases you would be correct.
My perspective is that .. well it goes back to the fact that I'm a bit of Elder Scrolls fan. And you know what my favorite humans are? Redguards. Who's image are mainly influenced by nothern and east Africa. Interestingly enough at least warrior culture is more inspired by feudal japan. So one thing they look cool. Secondly their martial culture is bad ass interesting and within the game lore they are the only ones who do not capitulate to Aldmeri Dominion, supremacist high elf faction.
There is so much more about Redguards which I'm not mentioning which captivating imagination, like sword singing, geomancy, first to gunpowder, naval capacity, unique take on "paladins" hell, even political / cultural struggles within, but I will cut short here.
I've red about Vaelune and got captivated by it probably by some similarities it had with Redgaurds. Namely carving their place in the world through hardship just like Redguards did when they came to Tamriel in Hammerfell and had to exterminate a lot of hostile fauna to settle. Namely, a place no-one else before could claim.
And you tell me that having them to tilt more towards darker complexions is not only bad, but somehow degrading (unless you want to implement full sliders to only some of the human races). If you analyze this like a total alien you would be forgiven to believe that the proposer thinks that there is something off with being of darker complexion. Now I don't think you do. But for a person who hold my frame of reference it may appear that way. As I'm devoid of the context you share and live in, the only idea space we share is that one of the game.
And that game has to speak to everyone. People like you, people living in north-east Europe, people in Japan in Egypt etc. To expect that devs can appeal to each and everyone is nigh impossible. As all contexts will be different, yet we somehow should find ways to discuss the game.
Which you did naming origin of Sanctum, which I think is more fit conversation to have. And that's a solid point we both can recognize and meaningfully engage with. And hence I haven't disagreed with the sliders all that much. It's just the framing and assumptions made about people's intentions which I felt to be off putting.
Ohm...what the actual *** are you talking about? I'm shocked...please next time keep this kind of nonsense for yourselfe.
His story is a touch more personal than I think is appropriate for video game forums.
That said, I think he wants more colors in races for the same end reason that I want more skin colors.
More freedom.
We just get there coming from different places.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Yes I understand, and it is fine, but the "born caucasian and died asian" line just killed me...nobody in right mind can actually believe this
I think its better to keep these nonsense far away from this forum.
Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.
Finally...I'm happy that not everybody is insane these days. Thanks Conrad you restored my faith in humanity.
Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"
I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.
Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.
Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?
less ways for me to be creative, less ways for me to make cool looking characters.
I find that shit to be fun.
You are talking to a guy who has spent more time in city of heros character creator than the game.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
You are able to create a dark tan character. Just not an elf or a kalear...for example. So I see no problem here.
Oh I can't make dark tan elfs now? My intended alt? See now I would have actual literal skin in the game. Why do you want me to have less fun?
Okay, whatever...it seems I'm not able to understand what is your problem at all. If the caracteristic of your choosen race is to have dark or light toned skin, then accept it....thats all.
I like looking a certain way. I like the way I look contrasts with certain colors on armor. Does that help?
Trying to determine race by skin color is not as simple as some people think.
My grandmother was born Colored but is light-skinned enough that the coroner assumed she was white.
Similar for my niece as a newborn at the hospital.
My friend's grandparents were Persian but her father was born and raised in Northern India. When he was born, he was classified as Caucasian and that is how he identified while he was alive. When he died, in the US (which is where my friend was born and raised), he was classified as Asian because he was born in India.
Nonsense is thinking that it should not be possible for any "race" to be dark-skinned.
There are, in fact, Scandinavians with dark skin and African features.
We will probably be able to create Elves and Kaelar with dark-skin. So, you're right, there is no problem.
I don't have a particular preference in this discussion, but I will say that limitation is often the catalyst of true creativity.
There is no white Vaelune similarly as there is no black Kalear. Just like in real life subspecies. And I don't see what is the problem with it. If you want your caracter to be black, choose the correct race.
Uuuuuuuuuuh ok. You know what I am just going to ignore this again. I thought you were trying to understand why I would have less fun in good faith. If we are back to demonstrably false 'middle eastern populations can't have white looking skin' thing then its not worth continuing the discussion.
Kaelar are based on European culture. There have been dark-skinned Europeans pretty much ever since the concept of Europe.
"First introduced in the 1780s by members of the Göttingen school of history, the term denoted one of three purported major races of humankind (those three being Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid). In biological anthropology, Caucasoid has been used as an umbrella term for phenotypically similar groups from these different regions, with a focus on skeletal anatomy, and especially cranial morphology, without regard to skin tone. Ancient and modern 'Caucasoid' populations were thus not exclusively 'white', but ranged in complexion from white-skinned to dark brown."
Again, it's easy enough to become educated about the concept of "white" people. When and why that became a concept and also how skin color has historically been associated with ethnicity. And, again, you can learn about when certain ethnicities who are now considered to be white were excluded from being white.
You're living in a dreamworld. But as long as you're happy I'm happy too...sooner or later you will realize you were wrong anyway...the sooner it is, the better for you...
Better to leave this to you, because it is leading the topic far from the original thoughts.
Bwhahahahahahahahaha. Well, I guess if you don’t see the issue, there must not be an issue. It’s unfortunate that the door to this ‘dreamworld’ is blocked behind all these books! The fire next time.
Varies by how dark skinned you mean, Hispanic or Greek only had slightly darker skin. There were no black people living in European areas. There were merchants sure, cuz Egypt, India and other Arabian kingdoms, but besides that? In medieval times there was such a thing as Infidels and the ilk. Medieval era was pretty racist, but even despite that, people use medieval age for fantasy. Probably the rawest splice of humanity you can get.
Your assertion is just wrong. There were Africans throughout medieval Europe, even before the Moorish invasion of Rome in 846. Go do some reading then provide a more qualified assertion. 🤗
Yes, like Numidian auxilaries in Legions of Rome. Who were granted citizenship through service and probably some even held some kind of office at some point.
That being said, the overall number wasn't significant. And probably most people living in their homelands didn't even seen people of different skin tones other than their own. Not a surprising thing, there weren't many Europeans in Mali empire either, with slight exception of Egypt for a while. And those People didn't travel that much back when outside of military campaigns, merchants who were always on the move or against their will being captured by Ottoman slavers who had step-hold in both Africa and Europe at the time.
Also, people in general were way more xenophobic at the time too. And in many cases not for trivial reasons. Like not having immunity to certain disease the new guy may be carrying.
Yes, this sort of example I excluded because it was a very rare thing indeed. Its not like 100% no black people or anything, but the numbers were so insignificant either in ancient or medieval times that might as well no count it.
This whole derail is in response to someone saying it should not be possible to have dark skinned Kaelar.