I think a light tint of colour on certain non-human races should be fine. Not looking for crayon-elves or anything. Realism isn't a big concern to me either, seeing as elves don't exist and neither does magic.
I know we are both on the same side of this issue for different reasons.
I don't think me asking for more customization or you asking to be able to make a character that looks like you are examples of "forced diversity".
Forced diversity in Ashes would be the Devs deciding that an amount of NPCs in Ashes are going to have a skin color, and they are going to make a big deal about it every time you talk to them. They would do this, so they can try and change your mind about an ideology you may or may not have.
From what I understand, this is not something anybody is asking for.
This is a good description, I would also say unnecessary inclusion of any demographic into another and identifying them as one and the same, is another form of forced diversity. More along the lines of fans demanding it rather than original ideas for the lore.
My example of gods of Egypt is more or less saying, why are there any white people at all in an ancient Egyptian setting? There shouldn't have been. It was forced onto an already established lore and history(of the people, not mythology).
Now a good example of natural diversity I like is Gladiator. There are reasons why there are different people from different cultures and ethnicities in one place. It made sense for the time and place the story is based.
But again, the only time this is even an issue is in established lore. As far as player characters go, let people go crazy and have fun with it. When it comes to lore, if there are distinguished differences between race, culture, or ethnicity....that isn't a bad thing. Hell if there wasn't even a white European option in this game for the lore and everything was based on African, Native American, and Chinese inspirations I would still want to play it. There would probably be some people that are deterred at first, but wait, they could make their character look how they want? Oh damn, they look like a European knight and they get what they want and it doesn't affect the lore! WOW!
F forced diversity, just give me a good story with lore that makes sense, if diversity comes naturally with it then awesome, but if it isn't there it can still be just as good or better. So long as players still get to make the character look how they want.
I know we are both on the same side of this issue for different reasons.
I don't think me asking for more customization or you asking to be able to make a character that looks like you are examples of "forced diversity".
Forced diversity in Ashes would be the Devs deciding that an amount of NPCs in Ashes are going to have a skin color, and they are going to make a big deal about it every time you talk to them. They would do this, so they can try and change your mind about an ideology you may or may not have.
From what I understand, this is not something anybody is asking for.
This is a good description, I would also say unnecessary inclusion of any demographic into another and identifying them as one and the same, is another form of forced diversity. More along the lines of fans demanding it rather than original ideas for the lore.
My example of gods of Egypt is more or less saying, why are there any white people at all in an ancient Egyptian setting? There shouldn't have been. It was forced onto an already established lore and history(of the people, not mythology).
Now a good example of natural diversity I like is Gladiator. There are reasons why there are different people from different cultures and ethnicities in one place. It made sense for the time and place the story is based.
But again, the only time this is even an issue is in established lore. As far as player characters go, let people go crazy and have fun with it. When it comes to lore, if there are distinguished differences between race, culture, or ethnicity....that isn't a bad thing. Hell if there wasn't even a white European option in this game for the lore and everything was based on African, Native American, and Chinese inspirations I would still want to play it. There would probably be some people that are deterred at first, but wait, they could make their character look how they want? Oh damn, they look like a European knight and they get what they want and it doesn't affect the lore! WOW!
F forced diversity, just give me a good story with lore that makes sense, if diversity comes naturally with it then awesome, but if it isn't there it can still be just as good or better. So long as players still get to make the character look how they want.
Egyptian people are real. Their deities have animal heads on them and are up for religious debate.
Humans are real, elves presumably not. There can't be forced diversity when BOTH the thing in question isn't real AND the writer didn't make /explicit/ exclusions/criteria. Telling me a black elf can't exist in a setting where it didn't say they couldn't is forced 'un'diversity. Where there are elves there is magic for bloody sake. How is shooting a fire ball requiring less suspension of disbelief than a black elf when a writer never said 'all elves are white.'
If the writer said so in the source material, I will say 'did that decision make any difference to your world that mattered?' I will ask this almost only in rp settings (I will ask this in sci fi settings sometimes, but that's because I am a nerd,) because it seems foolishly limiting in rp settings. But I will also say 'ok it's your rules' and move on.
There is not just one type of wheel. Wheels are reinvented all the time.
Elf in The Witcher:
Yes, and it's not canon. Don't link something that is breaking the books canon. Which btw Netflix did far more than the games.
Like honestly, idgaf about what Netflix added with their show, it's not a valid way to prove your point. If not for the fact that Sapkowski cares more about the money than moderating other mediums which adapt his work, Netflix show would be completely different and the games would be quite different as well. In the end, even though he doesn't moderate adaptations of his work, it doesn't make them canon either way
It's written by a white polish man. Obviously 'I perceive most things of my homeland white' happens. Once other minds get involved with something ideas change according to the participating minds. The more something is allowed to exist the more 'normal' it starts to seem because the only reason it's 'weird' to you is unfamiliarity. I have never even considered 'making my elves tan consistently in every character creator I use and play elf' for the past two decades to be 'not in canon' until.... Today? Because you all noted 'it's not canon'?
No. Netflix race swapped a lot of characters even tho they were not described as such. I dont give a damn about what you think honestly, but dont try to spin it into something that "supposedly" supports your point. Sapkowski explicitly said he allows the books to be put into other mediums because money. He fucked up 1 time with witcher and now he is all out with getting as much as possible. Don't use invalid points like that to support your points. Netflix is far too infamous with race swapping characters for "ticking boxes", and if you guys keep pushing the bullshit with Witcher I will just ignore your posts
Uhm..... Easy there mate. I am not using the Witcher for my argument at all. You could apply what I said to any work of art involving elves.
I know we are both on the same side of this issue for different reasons.
I don't think me asking for more customization or you asking to be able to make a character that looks like you are examples of "forced diversity".
Forced diversity in Ashes would be the Devs deciding that an amount of NPCs in Ashes are going to have a skin color, and they are going to make a big deal about it every time you talk to them. They would do this, so they can try and change your mind about an ideology you may or may not have.
From what I understand, this is not something anybody is asking for.
This is a good description, I would also say unnecessary inclusion of any demographic into another and identifying them as one and the same, is another form of forced diversity. More along the lines of fans demanding it rather than original ideas for the lore.
My example of gods of Egypt is more or less saying, why are there any white people at all in an ancient Egyptian setting? There shouldn't have been. It was forced onto an already established lore and history(of the people, not mythology).
Now a good example of natural diversity I like is Gladiator. There are reasons why there are different people from different cultures and ethnicities in one place. It made sense for the time and place the story is based.
But again, the only time this is even an issue is in established lore. As far as player characters go, let people go crazy and have fun with it. When it comes to lore, if there are distinguished differences between race, culture, or ethnicity....that isn't a bad thing. Hell if there wasn't even a white European option in this game for the lore and everything was based on African, Native American, and Chinese inspirations I would still want to play it. There would probably be some people that are deterred at first, but wait, they could make their character look how they want? Oh damn, they look like a European knight and they get what they want and it doesn't affect the lore! WOW!
F forced diversity, just give me a good story with lore that makes sense, if diversity comes naturally with it then awesome, but if it isn't there it can still be just as good or better. So long as players still get to make the character look how they want.
Egyptian people are real. Their deities have animal heads on them and are up for religious debate.
Humans are real, elves presumably not. There can't be forced diversity when BOTH the thing in question isn't real AND the writer didn't make /explicit/ exclusions/criteria. Telling me a black elf can't exist in a setting where it didn't say they couldn't is forced 'un'diversity. Where there are elves there is magic for bloody sake. How is shooting a fire ball requiring less suspension of disbelief than a black elf when a writer never said 'all elves are white.'
If the writer said so in the source material, I will say 'did that decision make any difference to your world that mattered?' I will ask this almost only in rp settings (I will ask this in sci fi settings sometimes, but that's because I am a nerd,) because it seems foolishly limiting in rp settings. But I will also say 'ok it's your rules' and move on.
Yes it makes a difference and it does matter because you're changing the lore established by someone else. If you break the lore it's far less immersive because its less and less the world the person made.
At that point it's just a non canon fanfic.
Yes it makes a difference and it does matter because you're changing the lore established by someone else. If you break the lore it's far less immersive because its less and less the world the person made.
At that point it's just a non canon fanfic.
I can agree that it makes a difference in the case of established lore.
Can you agree that since Ashes is still an early collaborative work that the lore is not yet established?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
WTF? All I'm advocating for is the races to be genuinely unique, again, what's the point if the only thing that's different about them is their starting stats? I think races that have unique customization options keep the game fresh. If every Elf, Orc or Dwarf you bump into look identical to each other, the world gets a bit bland. I'm sure certain hairstyles or beards would be interchangeable but the core physical attributes that make up each race should stay unique.
Right. Which has nothing to do with not being able to make a Kaelar with dark skin.
A Kaelar with dark skin does not make every Elf, Orc or Dwarf look identical.
A Kaelar with dark skin allows more diversity.
A Kaelar with only light skin means they will be closer to being identical.
So...no...saying that it should not be possible to have a Kaelar with dark skin is not advocating for races to be genuinely unique.
What you seem to be saying is that the Kaelar should exclude minorities.
Because Netflix likes to pander, just like Blizzard, when they suddenly let Blood Elves be dark-skinned because of a loud minority. It's the same as asking for Redguards to be light-skinned because, "I don't care, I can't play THIS specific race unless they're made in my image!".
The Kaelar should be able to have a nice, healthy tan that one would see in your average Greek. However, they shouldn't be able to achieve the dark skin tone that's unique to the Vaelune. If this is too much, why don't Intrepid just merge them and create a 'culture' sub-category for character creation? Leave the Human race as one, generic 'Aela'. But, If they did that, we'd probably end up with a Baldurs Gate 3 situation.
Skin tone was not a factor of being Greek until the 1800s.
Players should be able to create Kaelar characters with dark skin that is common among the Vaelune.
They should also be able to create Kaelar with Asian features/skin tones and Polynesian features/skin tones and Native American features/skin tones, etc.
The devs aren't going to have just one generic Aela because Kaelar and Vaelune are primarily about cultural differences; not skin tone and facial feature differences.
Your Baldur's Gate 3 link is precisely why it's fine for it to be possible to create Kaelar with dark skin.
Because the vast majority of players will still create Kaelar with European facial features and light skin.
If what you're advocating is a character creator at least as robust as Baldur's Gate 3, then we agree.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes it makes a difference and it does matter because you're changing the lore established by someone else. If you break the lore it's far less immersive because its less and less the world the person made.
At that point it's just a non canon fanfic.
LMAO
The skin tones of Elves is not lore created by Sapkowski in 1993.
In 1993, it didn't occur to him to include more diverse characters.
It was right around 1993, when my friend whose bio grandparents were Persian and whose bio parents identified as Caucasian but the father died Asian said to me, "Hey! At least you can see yourself on billboards. I can't see myself on billboards." And I realized that when I wrote Sc-Fi/Fantasy, 85% of the time my protagonists are white and 15% of the time they're black. Why? Because 98% of Sci-Fi/Fantasy stories have white protagonists and sometimes I want the protagonist to look more like me.
And I realized, if there's going to be more equitable representation in mass-media fiction - the creators have to proactively think about the demographics, rather than just go with status-quo of what was possible during the eras of segregation.
In 1993, the vast majority of Fantasy writers were not thinking about equitable representation in their stories.
By 2000, D&D 3rd Edition finally included equitable representation among Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, Humans, etc...
EQ had already launched. World of Warcraft had already started production. Too late, then, for those devs to catch up to the D&D devs. It's taken 15 years for the World of Warcraft devs to catch up.
Anyone also into comics - which is probably most of RPG fandom - is going to be familiar enough with retcons and visual revamps to be able to deal with lore being tweaked to include more diversity. Especially when it comes to modern day TV and film. And the same should also be true of video game franchises.
Ashes is a new IP, so nothing is being tweaked.
Steven says we will have a character creator at least as good as BDO - it will most likely take some inspiration from MetaHuman Creator, so there is no reason to have systemic restrictions based on outdated notions of what Fantasy races can be due to archaic notions of what "race" is.
Dygz dont talk about my country unless you know what you are talking about.
You are confusing ancient Greek education with being Greek.
History is based on writtings, cross examination of events. Facts.
Not agendas and political ideology.
Just because global cities want to make everybody an assimilated 'good citizen' that doesnt mean that the rest of the world accepts this forceful elimitation of unique identity.
Albanians in Greece (or Bulgarians or Russians or Pakistanis or English or French or German) are proud to be who they are.
I am happy to be Greek and even though I live in Australia I will never be Australian and I dont want to, just like if I was living in China I'd never be Chinese, nor me nor my kids. My last name is Greek. It doesnt become Chinese all of a sudden. Nor a Bulgarian name becomes Greek all of a sudden.
Learn to respect people identities instead of trying to make everything the same for your convenience.
Dont go around and say crap like "... since the 1800..." about people that have unique language, culture and mythology, preserved to this day since antiquity.
The first world empire that respected other civilizations instead of forcing them to give up their religions or way of life, and trully celebrated and respected foreign peoples uniqueness.
Dont talk about my country with the same breath as you push political agendas aimed at imprisoning rational thinking that cant be controlled or forced to get in line with the herd.
Dygz dont talk about my country unless you know what you are talking about.
You are confusing ancient Greek education with being Greek.
History is based on writtings, cross examination of events. Facts.
Not agendas and political ideology.
Just because global cities want to make everybody an assimilated 'good citizen' that doesnt mean that the rest of the world accepts this forceful elimitation of unique identity.
Albanians in Greece (or Bulgarians or Russians or Pakistanis or English or French or German) are proud to be who they are.
I am happy to be Greek and even though I live in Australia I will never be Australian and I dont want to, just like if I was living in China I'd never be Chinese, nor me nor my kids. My last name is Greek. It doesnt become Chinese all of a sudden. Nor a Bulgarian name becomes Greek all of a sudden.
Learn to respect people identities instead of trying to make everything the same for your convenience.
Dont go around and say crap like "... since the 1800..." about people that have unique language, culture and mythology, preserved to this day since antiquity.
The first world empire that respected other civilizations instead of forcing them to give up their religions or way of life, and trully celebrated and respected foreign peoples uniqueness.
Dont talk about my country with the same breath as you push political agendas aimed at imprisoning rational thinking that cant be controlled or forced to get in line with the herd.
I think I see where you are coming from now. Thanks for explaining your feelings on this.
I will join you in scolding Dygz irt the greek thing.
Can I offer you my perception of why I think he and you are technically fighting for different things for the same reasons?
Because people confuse the words racism, culture, nationality, citizenship. And it's all because people are ignorant and prefer to be fed info from the social media channels they feel safe to follow, and they dont place value on educating themselves.
Apparently being educated is too offensive, as opposed to avoiding confrontations.
Because people confuse the words racism, culture, nationality, citizenship. And it's all because people are ignorant and prefer to be fed info and they dont place value on educating themselves.
Apparently being educated is too offensive, as opposed to avoiding confrontations.
Ye it's my response to why I fight for distinctive cultures (be it ingame or inrl), despite the fact that skin tone color should not be restricted on character creation.
I dont know what the hell dygz is going for. I have never seen him make sense on anything.
Ye it's my response to why I fight for distinctive cultures (be it ingame or inrl), despite the fact that skin tone color should not be restricted on character creation.
I dont know what the hell dygz is going for. I have never seen him make sense on anything.
Ah, cool. It sounds like I do in fact understand you then. I will stop antagonizing you on this issue. Sorry if I inadvertently made you feel disrespected on this topic. Your distinct identity is, indeed valuable and no one has a right to take away your right to express it.
All I personally ask for is the same treatment. But it didn't sound like your against that.
When did I showed disrespect to other peoples cultures?
It's others, not me, that treat differences, uniqueness, characteristics as something offensive that we should pretend that dont exist, or should not be allowed to exist.
When did I showed disrespect to other peoples cultures?
It's others, not me, that treat differences, uniqueness, characteristics as something offensive that we should pretend that dont exist, or should not be allowed to exist.
I think you misunderstood me. I was apologizing to you in case you felt I had inadvertently disrespected you in this discussion. Not the other way around.
But now back to the topic. Many people here want a total freedom to character creation to the point that the only telling signs that you play X race will be whether you have pointy ears or you are inexplicably short.
People, you need to learn to take no for an answer sometimes.
How do you want races to look different, I ask you? If you can access anything, what is even the point of having different races.
The same arguements will be made for classes and weapons.
People will want to play sword/shield but will complain about how they are being restricted into not having what two-handed has.
People will want to play mage, but they will complain that they die too easily (even tho themselves can kill fast).
Ye. Learn to take no for an answer and appreciete what you have that makes you unique.
Learn to take no for an answer and appreciete what you have that makes you unique.
Except, no one with design authority has said ‘no’ yet. So, your ‘no’ is just as valid as my ‘yes.’ And until Intrepid has a final decision, the discussion continues.
I appreciated your rebuttal on Greece. But keep in mind that human culture in Ashes isn’t Greek. It’s influenced by Greek culture. Tolkien’s orcs we’re influenced by the rise of fascism in Germany. That doesn’t make the Urik’ai Nazis or restrict their affect to some Germanic anachronism.
Yes it makes a difference and it does matter because you're changing the lore established by someone else. If you break the lore it's far less immersive because its less and less the world the person made.
At that point it's just a non canon fanfic.
LMAO
The skin tones of Elves is not lore created by Sapkowski in 1993.
In 1993, it didn't occur to him to include more diverse characters.
It was right around 1993, when my friend whose bio grandparents were Persian and whose bio parents identified as Caucasian but the father died Asian said to me, "Hey! At least you can see yourself on billboards. I can't see myself on billboards." And I realized that when I wrote Sc-Fi/Fantasy, 85% of the time my protagonists are white and 15% of the time they're black. Why? Because 98% of Sci-Fi/Fantasy stories have white protagonists and sometimes I want the protagonist to look more like me.
And I realized, if there's going to be more equitable representation in mass-media fiction - the creators have to proactively think about the demographics, rather than just go with status-quo of what was possible during the eras of segregation.
In 1993, the vast majority of Fantasy writers were not thinking about equitable representation in their stories.
By 2000, D&D 3rd Edition finally included equitable representation among Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, Humans, etc...
EQ had already launched. World of Warcraft had already started production. Too late, then, for those devs to catch up to the D&D devs. It's taken 15 years for the World of Warcraft devs to catch up.
Anyone also into comics - which is probably most of RPG fandom - is going to be familiar enough with retcons and visual revamps to be able to deal with lore being tweaked to include more diversity. Especially when it comes to modern day TV and film. And the same should also be true of video game franchises.
Ashes is a new IP, so nothing is being tweaked.
Steven says we will have a character creator at least as good as BDO - it will most likely take some inspiration from MetaHuman Creator, so there is no reason to have systemic restrictions based on outdated notions of what Fantasy races can be due to archaic notions of what "race" is.
You clearly have no idea about Witcher if you're still trying to argue about the Witcher stuff without any valid info/opinions. I'm ending the witcher talk here, enough of constant looping around same things. If you didnt read the witcher your opinion doesn't matter when you try to argue about the witcher. Full stop
Yes it makes a difference and it does matter because you're changing the lore established by someone else. If you break the lore it's far less immersive because its less and less the world the person made.
At that point it's just a non canon fanfic.
I can agree that it makes a difference in the case of established lore.
Can you agree that since Ashes is still an early collaborative work that the lore is not yet established?
I would be if Steven wasn't hell bent on giving tank class a stupid name such as tank. It makes it hella sound like lore is already established
Dygz dont talk about my country unless you know what you are talking about.
You are confusing ancient Greek education with being Greek.
History is based on writtings, cross examination of events. Facts.
Not agendas and political ideology.
Just because global cities want to make everybody an assimilated 'good citizen' that doesnt mean that the rest of the world accepts this forceful elimitation of unique identity.
Albanians in Greece (or Bulgarians or Russians or Pakistanis or English or French or German) are proud to be who they are.
I am happy to be Greek and even though I live in Australia I will never be Australian and I dont want to, just like if I was living in China I'd never be Chinese, nor me nor my kids. My last name is Greek. It doesnt become Chinese all of a sudden. Nor a Bulgarian name becomes Greek all of a sudden.
Learn to respect people identities instead of trying to make everything the same for your convenience.
Dont go around and say crap like "... since the 1800..." about people that have unique language, culture and mythology, preserved to this day since antiquity.
The first world empire that respected other civilizations instead of forcing them to give up their religions or way of life, and trully celebrated and respected foreign peoples uniqueness.
Dont talk about my country with the same breath as you push political agendas aimed at imprisoning rational thinking that cant be controlled or forced to get in line with the herd.
Ngl, kinda jealous I'm not Greek myself. Cool mythology, cool names and created the Corinthian helm. Meanwhile here I am, a Polish guy and all I can be proud of is the Witcher and Husaria 🤣
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes it makes a difference and it does matter because you're changing the lore established by someone else. If you break the lore it's far less immersive because its less and less the world the person made.
At that point it's just a non canon fanfic.
I can agree that it makes a difference in the case of established lore.
Can you agree that since Ashes is still an early collaborative work that the lore is not yet established?
I would be if Steven wasn't hell bent on giving tank class a stupid name such as tank. It makes it hella sound like lore is already established
Idk man, sounds like tank was a placeholder name that for some reason stuck around. Don’t think it has anything to do with lore.
Dygz dont talk about my country unless you know what you are talking about.
You are confusing ancient Greek education with being Greek.
History is based on writtings, cross examination of events. Facts.
Not agendas and political ideology.
Just because global cities want to make everybody an assimilated 'good citizen' that doesnt mean that the rest of the world accepts this forceful elimitation of unique identity.
Albanians in Greece (or Bulgarians or Russians or Pakistanis or English or French or German) are proud to be who they are.
I am happy to be Greek and even though I live in Australia I will never be Australian and I dont want to, just like if I was living in China I'd never be Chinese, nor me nor my kids. My last name is Greek. It doesnt become Chinese all of a sudden. Nor a Bulgarian name becomes Greek all of a sudden.
Learn to respect people identities instead of trying to make everything the same for your convenience.
Dont go around and say crap like "... since the 1800..." about people that have unique language, culture and mythology, preserved to this day since antiquity.
The first world empire that respected other civilizations instead of forcing them to give up their religions or way of life, and trully celebrated and respected foreign peoples uniqueness.
Dont talk about my country with the same breath as you push political agendas aimed at imprisoning rational thinking that cant be controlled or forced to get in line with the herd.
Ngl, kinda jealous I'm not Greek myself. Cool mythology, cool names and created the Corinthian helm. Meanwhile here I am, a Polish guy and all I can be proud of is the Witcher and Husaria 🤣
I mean first of all Poland has some of the coolest history to read about. Second of all I hope it's not offensive but I felt like the Poland-Lithuanian Commonwealth had quite a groundbreaking political system that deserves way more glamour and praise than it currently gets. Lastly, her sheer size despite her geographic position, I feel, is certainly a feat that would have been extremely difficult to pull off without the iron will of Polish unity and identity despite it's low periods. Poland has many reasons to have pride.
I know it's off topic but I love nerding out over history. So sorry for the derail ( but not sorry)
Small print leads to large risks.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Dygz dont talk about my country unless you know what you are talking about.
You are confusing ancient Greek education with being Greek.
History is based on writings, cross examination of events. Facts.
LMAO
I will talk about any damned thing I want to talk about.
I am not confusing Greek education with being Greek.
Greece has always allowed assimilated people to be Greek, even in antiquity, regardless of skin color.
People of Albanian, Bulgarian, Pakistani descent can be as proud as they want to be of their original ethnic heritage. And they can still be Greek. And they can have children with native Greeks and those children will be Greek, regardless of skin color.
The concept of skin tones defining race was not a thing - anywhere - prior to the 1800s.
The tirade you went on due to your warped interpretation of what you think I said is on you - it doesn't accurately reflect anything I wrote.
Dygz dont talk about my country unless you know what you are talking about.
You are confusing ancient Greek education with being Greek.
History is based on writings, cross examination of events. Facts.
LMAO
I will talk about any damned thing I want to talk about.
I am not confusing Greek education with being Greek.
Greece has always allowed assimilated people to be Greek, even in antiquity, regardless of skin color.
People of Albanian, Bulgarian, Pakistani descent can be as proud as they want to be of their original ethnic heritage. And they can still be Greek. And they can have children with native Greeks and those children will be Greek, regardless of skin color.
The concept of skin tones defining race was not a thing - anywhere - prior to the 1800s.
The tirade you went on due to your warped interpretation of what you think I said is on you - it doesn't accurately reflect anything I wrote.
Dude just let it chill. He isn't even disagreeing with the conclusion irt Ashes (even if his reasoning is different), this is really not worth arguing about. Let the Greek guy be the authority on his own people even if you disagree with him (He said absolutely nothing about skin color defining Greekness so your whole arguement is...) Or do you want George Black condescending you about weaves and afros in a different thread.
Small print leads to large risks.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I know he's not disagreeing with me about the conclusion irt Ashes.
He's also not disagreeing with me about the history of Greece. For some reason he thinks we disagree about that.
How is it possible to condescend about weaves and afros? I dunno what that has to do with anything.
LMAO
I will talk about any damned thing I want to talk about.
I am not confusing Greek education with being Greek.
Greece has always allowed assimilated people to be Greek, even in antiquity, regardless of skin color.
People of Albanian, Bulgarian, Pakistani descent can be as proud as they want to be of their original ethnic heritage. And they can still be Greek. And they can have children with native Greeks and those children will be Greek, regardless of skin color.
The concept of skin tones defining race was not a thing - anywhere - prior to the 1800s.
The tirade you went on due to your warped interpretation of what you think I said is on you - it doesn't accurately reflect anything I wrote.
You are a moron who has proved time and time again that you know nothing of history or genetics. The Greeks have always been an Indo-European people with distinct genetics, they only subjected people to Hellenization if they were conquered or within the Hellenic sphere of influence. 90% of the time these people were other Indo-Europeans and never considered Greek, only Hellenic in culture.
You are obsessed with skin colour and yet no one has mentioned that as a defining notion of race as you boldly claim. I do not know what schools were teaching in the 60's when you were a kid but obviously it rotted your brain. Stop trying to demolish other ethnicities sense of identity. In the end that is all that you are doing. Everything that comes out of your mush brain is nothing but an insult to ancient and distinct ethnic groups.
Stop trying to use the modern world as a reflection of the ancient world, and please stop confusing nationality and ethnicity. It just makes you seem senile.
Learn to take no for an answer and appreciete what you have that makes you unique.
Except, no one with design authority has said ‘no’ yet. So, your ‘no’ is just as valid as my ‘yes.’ And until Intrepid has a final decision, the discussion continues.
I appreciated your rebuttal on Greece. But keep in mind that human culture in Ashes isn’t Greek. It’s influenced by Greek culture. Tolkien’s orcs we’re influenced by the rise of fascism in Germany. That doesn’t make the Urik’ai Nazis or restrict their affect to some Germanic anachronism.
Let us remember that orcs, elves, dwarfs, goblins, etc are all from Indo-European and specifically Germanic and Celtic cultures, they have always been represented as a mirror image of Germanic and Celtic people. That is why elves have always been depicted as fair with light hair, do not try to suggest this imagery was simply invented by a modern writter. When discussing this topic we must keep in mind that these creatures are depictions from an ancient culture and we must respect the culture that these things come from. Just as if we were discussing Yokai or Yao Guai, we would respect their origins in Han and Japanese culture and represent them as such.
Players should be able to create Kaelar characters with dark skin that is common among the Vaelune.
They should also be able to create Kaelar with Asian features/skin tones and Polynesian features/skin tones and Native American features/skin tones, etc.
Do not even attempt to bring other races into this, I am Polynesian and I couldn't care less if characters in a game looked like me or not, neither do most Asians or Native Americans. This is entirely about you and your insecurities. Go see a therapist and take your meds
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This is a good description, I would also say unnecessary inclusion of any demographic into another and identifying them as one and the same, is another form of forced diversity. More along the lines of fans demanding it rather than original ideas for the lore.
My example of gods of Egypt is more or less saying, why are there any white people at all in an ancient Egyptian setting? There shouldn't have been. It was forced onto an already established lore and history(of the people, not mythology).
Now a good example of natural diversity I like is Gladiator. There are reasons why there are different people from different cultures and ethnicities in one place. It made sense for the time and place the story is based.
But again, the only time this is even an issue is in established lore. As far as player characters go, let people go crazy and have fun with it. When it comes to lore, if there are distinguished differences between race, culture, or ethnicity....that isn't a bad thing. Hell if there wasn't even a white European option in this game for the lore and everything was based on African, Native American, and Chinese inspirations I would still want to play it. There would probably be some people that are deterred at first, but wait, they could make their character look how they want? Oh damn, they look like a European knight and they get what they want and it doesn't affect the lore! WOW!
F forced diversity, just give me a good story with lore that makes sense, if diversity comes naturally with it then awesome, but if it isn't there it can still be just as good or better. So long as players still get to make the character look how they want.
Egyptian people are real. Their deities have animal heads on them and are up for religious debate.
Humans are real, elves presumably not. There can't be forced diversity when BOTH the thing in question isn't real AND the writer didn't make /explicit/ exclusions/criteria. Telling me a black elf can't exist in a setting where it didn't say they couldn't is forced 'un'diversity. Where there are elves there is magic for bloody sake. How is shooting a fire ball requiring less suspension of disbelief than a black elf when a writer never said 'all elves are white.'
If the writer said so in the source material, I will say 'did that decision make any difference to your world that mattered?' I will ask this almost only in rp settings (I will ask this in sci fi settings sometimes, but that's because I am a nerd,) because it seems foolishly limiting in rp settings. But I will also say 'ok it's your rules' and move on.
Yes it makes a difference and it does matter because you're changing the lore established by someone else. If you break the lore it's far less immersive because its less and less the world the person made.
At that point it's just a non canon fanfic.
I can agree that it makes a difference in the case of established lore.
Can you agree that since Ashes is still an early collaborative work that the lore is not yet established?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
A Kaelar with dark skin does not make every Elf, Orc or Dwarf look identical.
A Kaelar with dark skin allows more diversity.
A Kaelar with only light skin means they will be closer to being identical.
So...no...saying that it should not be possible to have a Kaelar with dark skin is not advocating for races to be genuinely unique.
What you seem to be saying is that the Kaelar should exclude minorities.
Pandering.
Mmmmmn hmmmmn.
Skin tone was not a factor of being Greek until the 1800s.
Players should be able to create Kaelar characters with dark skin that is common among the Vaelune.
They should also be able to create Kaelar with Asian features/skin tones and Polynesian features/skin tones and Native American features/skin tones, etc.
The devs aren't going to have just one generic Aela because Kaelar and Vaelune are primarily about cultural differences; not skin tone and facial feature differences.
Your Baldur's Gate 3 link is precisely why it's fine for it to be possible to create Kaelar with dark skin.
Because the vast majority of players will still create Kaelar with European facial features and light skin.
If what you're advocating is a character creator at least as robust as Baldur's Gate 3, then we agree.
The skin tones of Elves is not lore created by Sapkowski in 1993.
In 1993, it didn't occur to him to include more diverse characters.
It was right around 1993, when my friend whose bio grandparents were Persian and whose bio parents identified as Caucasian but the father died Asian said to me, "Hey! At least you can see yourself on billboards. I can't see myself on billboards." And I realized that when I wrote Sc-Fi/Fantasy, 85% of the time my protagonists are white and 15% of the time they're black. Why? Because 98% of Sci-Fi/Fantasy stories have white protagonists and sometimes I want the protagonist to look more like me.
And I realized, if there's going to be more equitable representation in mass-media fiction - the creators have to proactively think about the demographics, rather than just go with status-quo of what was possible during the eras of segregation.
In 1993, the vast majority of Fantasy writers were not thinking about equitable representation in their stories.
By 2000, D&D 3rd Edition finally included equitable representation among Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, Humans, etc...
EQ had already launched. World of Warcraft had already started production. Too late, then, for those devs to catch up to the D&D devs. It's taken 15 years for the World of Warcraft devs to catch up.
Anyone also into comics - which is probably most of RPG fandom - is going to be familiar enough with retcons and visual revamps to be able to deal with lore being tweaked to include more diversity. Especially when it comes to modern day TV and film. And the same should also be true of video game franchises.
Ashes is a new IP, so nothing is being tweaked.
Steven says we will have a character creator at least as good as BDO - it will most likely take some inspiration from MetaHuman Creator, so there is no reason to have systemic restrictions based on outdated notions of what Fantasy races can be due to archaic notions of what "race" is.
You are confusing ancient Greek education with being Greek.
History is based on writtings, cross examination of events. Facts.
Not agendas and political ideology.
Just because global cities want to make everybody an assimilated 'good citizen' that doesnt mean that the rest of the world accepts this forceful elimitation of unique identity.
Albanians in Greece (or Bulgarians or Russians or Pakistanis or English or French or German) are proud to be who they are.
I am happy to be Greek and even though I live in Australia I will never be Australian and I dont want to, just like if I was living in China I'd never be Chinese, nor me nor my kids. My last name is Greek. It doesnt become Chinese all of a sudden. Nor a Bulgarian name becomes Greek all of a sudden.
Learn to respect people identities instead of trying to make everything the same for your convenience.
Dont go around and say crap like "... since the 1800..." about people that have unique language, culture and mythology, preserved to this day since antiquity.
The first world empire that respected other civilizations instead of forcing them to give up their religions or way of life, and trully celebrated and respected foreign peoples uniqueness.
Dont talk about my country with the same breath as you push political agendas aimed at imprisoning rational thinking that cant be controlled or forced to get in line with the herd.
I think I see where you are coming from now. Thanks for explaining your feelings on this.
I will join you in scolding Dygz irt the greek thing.
Can I offer you my perception of why I think he and you are technically fighting for different things for the same reasons?
Apparently being educated is too offensive, as opposed to avoiding confrontations.
Was that a response to me? I'm not sure
I dont know what the hell dygz is going for. I have never seen him make sense on anything.
Ah, cool. It sounds like I do in fact understand you then. I will stop antagonizing you on this issue. Sorry if I inadvertently made you feel disrespected on this topic. Your distinct identity is, indeed valuable and no one has a right to take away your right to express it.
All I personally ask for is the same treatment. But it didn't sound like your against that.
It's others, not me, that treat differences, uniqueness, characteristics as something offensive that we should pretend that dont exist, or should not be allowed to exist.
I think you misunderstood me. I was apologizing to you in case you felt I had inadvertently disrespected you in this discussion. Not the other way around.
But now back to the topic. Many people here want a total freedom to character creation to the point that the only telling signs that you play X race will be whether you have pointy ears or you are inexplicably short.
People, you need to learn to take no for an answer sometimes.
How do you want races to look different, I ask you? If you can access anything, what is even the point of having different races.
The same arguements will be made for classes and weapons.
People will want to play sword/shield but will complain about how they are being restricted into not having what two-handed has.
People will want to play mage, but they will complain that they die too easily (even tho themselves can kill fast).
Ye. Learn to take no for an answer and appreciete what you have that makes you unique.
Except, no one with design authority has said ‘no’ yet. So, your ‘no’ is just as valid as my ‘yes.’ And until Intrepid has a final decision, the discussion continues.
I appreciated your rebuttal on Greece. But keep in mind that human culture in Ashes isn’t Greek. It’s influenced by Greek culture. Tolkien’s orcs we’re influenced by the rise of fascism in Germany. That doesn’t make the Urik’ai Nazis or restrict their affect to some Germanic anachronism.
You clearly have no idea about Witcher if you're still trying to argue about the Witcher stuff without any valid info/opinions. I'm ending the witcher talk here, enough of constant looping around same things. If you didnt read the witcher your opinion doesn't matter when you try to argue about the witcher. Full stop
I would be if Steven wasn't hell bent on giving tank class a stupid name such as tank. It makes it hella sound like lore is already established
Ngl, kinda jealous I'm not Greek myself. Cool mythology, cool names and created the Corinthian helm. Meanwhile here I am, a Polish guy and all I can be proud of is the Witcher and Husaria 🤣
Idk man, sounds like tank was a placeholder name that for some reason stuck around. Don’t think it has anything to do with lore.
I mean first of all Poland has some of the coolest history to read about. Second of all I hope it's not offensive but I felt like the Poland-Lithuanian Commonwealth had quite a groundbreaking political system that deserves way more glamour and praise than it currently gets. Lastly, her sheer size despite her geographic position, I feel, is certainly a feat that would have been extremely difficult to pull off without the iron will of Polish unity and identity despite it's low periods. Poland has many reasons to have pride.
I know it's off topic but I love nerding out over history. So sorry for the derail ( but not sorry)
I will talk about any damned thing I want to talk about.
I am not confusing Greek education with being Greek.
Greece has always allowed assimilated people to be Greek, even in antiquity, regardless of skin color.
People of Albanian, Bulgarian, Pakistani descent can be as proud as they want to be of their original ethnic heritage. And they can still be Greek. And they can have children with native Greeks and those children will be Greek, regardless of skin color.
The concept of skin tones defining race was not a thing - anywhere - prior to the 1800s.
The tirade you went on due to your warped interpretation of what you think I said is on you - it doesn't accurately reflect anything I wrote.
Dude just let it chill. He isn't even disagreeing with the conclusion irt Ashes (even if his reasoning is different), this is really not worth arguing about. Let the Greek guy be the authority on his own people even if you disagree with him (He said absolutely nothing about skin color defining Greekness so your whole arguement is...) Or do you want George Black condescending you about weaves and afros in a different thread.
He's also not disagreeing with me about the history of Greece. For some reason he thinks we disagree about that.
How is it possible to condescend about weaves and afros? I dunno what that has to do with anything.
I would bet a good sum of money that tank is still called tank to troll people who would care too much about such things.
It also is more evidence to me that lore is not hella established, as it shows a lack of care for how fantasy sounding the names of things are.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Keep em coming, that is great.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
You are a moron who has proved time and time again that you know nothing of history or genetics. The Greeks have always been an Indo-European people with distinct genetics, they only subjected people to Hellenization if they were conquered or within the Hellenic sphere of influence. 90% of the time these people were other Indo-Europeans and never considered Greek, only Hellenic in culture.
You are obsessed with skin colour and yet no one has mentioned that as a defining notion of race as you boldly claim. I do not know what schools were teaching in the 60's when you were a kid but obviously it rotted your brain. Stop trying to demolish other ethnicities sense of identity. In the end that is all that you are doing. Everything that comes out of your mush brain is nothing but an insult to ancient and distinct ethnic groups.
Stop trying to use the modern world as a reflection of the ancient world, and please stop confusing nationality and ethnicity. It just makes you seem senile.
Let us remember that orcs, elves, dwarfs, goblins, etc are all from Indo-European and specifically Germanic and Celtic cultures, they have always been represented as a mirror image of Germanic and Celtic people. That is why elves have always been depicted as fair with light hair, do not try to suggest this imagery was simply invented by a modern writter. When discussing this topic we must keep in mind that these creatures are depictions from an ancient culture and we must respect the culture that these things come from. Just as if we were discussing Yokai or Yao Guai, we would respect their origins in Han and Japanese culture and represent them as such.
Do not even attempt to bring other races into this, I am Polynesian and I couldn't care less if characters in a game looked like me or not, neither do most Asians or Native Americans. This is entirely about you and your insecurities. Go see a therapist and take your meds