Also, I find armours changing to racials not only a waste of resources but it kills the immersion. I would prefer to loot some fool of a red player, nick his armour from his corpse and wear it as a trophy, which won't be possible since it will insta change to my racial armour
Also, I find armours changing to racials not only a waste of resources but it kills the immersion. I would prefer to loot some fool of a red player, nick his armour from his corpse and wear it as a trophy, which won't be possible since it will insta change to my racial armour
Agreed, I love Lineage 2 to death, but this is Steven taking things from his favorite MMORPG to a fault.
Not only does it hurt immersion and is a waste of resources, like you said. It also is extremely out of touch with current MMORPG player desires.
I am not the average casual player, but I at least understand that many people in MMORPGs consider character appearance to be a huge part of their end-game. These restrictions are dated and will hold Ashes back in the long run for sure.
I would not be surprised if I have to track this post down in 2024 because people complained to the point that they fixed had to go back and fix it.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm curious what skin colours non-human races will have. Will we be able to colour our elves in light shades of blue/purple/pink, or darker tones similar to dark elves? That would be cool. Elves in fantasy tend to have a bit more fantastical skin and hair colours, especially in d&d.
The skin colours should not go over the top. BDO allows that and many people run around with some abominations
What do you consider "over the top" though? Blue and Green on humans for example is where I would say it's too far. But I think Humans (and honestly Elves or Dwarves also) should be able to have any naturally occurring skin tone we have on Earth today. Do whatever you want on Tulnar or Orcs.
If devs are going for drow or duergar like dwarves, the skin should be race specific. If they don't have either or, then the colours will be fine. Well, I still find elves with black skin that aren't drow as pretty damn odd
I understand that but this game doesn’t have drow. It just has elitist elves (high elves) and nature (wood) elves. So why lock them out from using a full range of natural skin tones, since there is no drow in the game to use if they want a dark skinned elf? Doesn’t hurt me either way, but logically I see no issue with having the options.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Also, I find armours changing to racials not only a waste of resources but it kills the immersion. I would prefer to loot some fool of a red player, nick his armour from his corpse and wear it as a trophy, which won't be possible since it will insta change to my racial armour
Totally agree and this is something I haven’t taken the time to actually think about before. I thought “hm that’s interesting” in passing but never thought in depth like you have. Very peculiar, should we start a thread specifically to discuss this or is there one already?
Also, I find armours changing to racials not only a waste of resources but it kills the immersion. I would prefer to loot some fool of a red player, nick his armour from his corpse and wear it as a trophy, which won't be possible since it will insta change to my racial armour
Totally agree and this is something I haven’t taken the time to actually think about before. I thought “hm that’s interesting” in passing but never thought in depth like you have. Very peculiar, should we start a thread specifically to discuss this or is there one already?
I'm curious what skin colours non-human races will have. Will we be able to colour our elves in light shades of blue/purple/pink, or darker tones similar to dark elves? That would be cool. Elves in fantasy tend to have a bit more fantastical skin and hair colours, especially in d&d.
The skin colours should not go over the top. BDO allows that and many people run around with some abominations
What do you consider "over the top" though? Blue and Green on humans for example is where I would say it's too far. But I think Humans (and honestly Elves or Dwarves also) should be able to have any naturally occurring skin tone we have on Earth today. Do whatever you want on Tulnar or Orcs.
If devs are going for drow or duergar like dwarves, the skin should be race specific. If they don't have either or, then the colours will be fine. Well, I still find elves with black skin that aren't drow as pretty damn odd
I understand that but this game doesn’t have drow. It just has elitist elves (high elves) and nature (wood) elves. So why lock them out from using a full range of natural skin tones, since there is no drow in the game to use if they want a dark skinned elf? Doesn’t hurt me either way, but logically I see no issue with having the options.
Because a dark skinned elf that isn't a drow will not feel like an elf. Outside of drow, elves are never depicted as black. Reinventing the wheel never works well
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
That wheel was "reinvented" 20+ years ago with 3rd Edition D&D.
What you mean is that MMORPGs have not caught up. It's about time they do.
"It's 'always' been that way" is not a valid excuse.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Also, I find armours changing to racials not only a waste of resources but it kills the immersion. I would prefer to loot some fool of a red player, nick his armour from his corpse and wear it as a trophy, which won't be possible since it will insta change to my racial armour
Totally agree and this is something I haven’t taken the time to actually think about before. I thought “hm that’s interesting” in passing but never thought in depth like you have. Very peculiar, should we start a thread specifically to discuss this or is there one already?
Also, I find armours changing to racials not only a waste of resources but it kills the immersion. I would prefer to loot some fool of a red player, nick his armour from his corpse and wear it as a trophy, which won't be possible since it will insta change to my racial armour
Totally agree and this is something I haven’t taken the time to actually think about before. I thought “hm that’s interesting” in passing but never thought in depth like you have. Very peculiar, should we start a thread specifically to discuss this or is there one already?
That wheel was "reinvented" 20+ years ago with 3rd Edition D&D.
What you mean is that MMORPGs have not caught up. It's about time they do.
"It's 'always' been that way" is not a valid excuse.
Reinvented as in WotC made an originally unplayable race, playable because everyone wanted to be Drizzt
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Nope. They made it so that Dwarves, Elves, Tieflings, Halflings, etc can have Middle Eastern, Indian, Polynesian, African, Asian, Native American (etc) skin tones, hair textures, facial features and other phenotypes.
Really had nothing to do with Drizzt.
Elves are depicted as black in The Witcher series. Not sure why elves have to be pigeon-holed just because folks grooved Tolkien's depiction (and Edmund Spencer before him). I always thought there would be a natural connection to the Dragonlance Wild Elves and the native tribes in the Americas. Drow aren't a thing in Verra, so there's no reason to restrict a broad spectrum of skin tones.
Elves are depicted as black in The Witcher series. Not sure why elves have to be pigeon-holed just because folks grooved Tolkien's depiction (and Edmund Spencer before him). I always thought there would be a natural connection to the Dragonlance Wild Elves and the native tribes in the Americas. Drow aren't a thing in Verra, so there's no reason to restrict a broad spectrum of skin tones.
Incorrect. It was added by Netflix. Writer f the show or whatever the name of role is, didn't like how most ppl in Witcher world are white even tho its slavic setting. Elves in witcher never were black.
Elves are depicted as black in The Witcher series. Not sure why elves have to be pigeon-holed just because folks grooved Tolkien's depiction (and Edmund Spencer before him). I always thought there would be a natural connection to the Dragonlance Wild Elves and the native tribes in the Americas. Drow aren't a thing in Verra, so there's no reason to restrict a broad spectrum of skin tones.
Why reinvent the wheel tho? Reinventing the wheel leads nowhere.
@Conrad - yes, the Witcher series, not the books. I didn't mention the books or the games. I don't see how allowing a player to choose darker skin tones for an elf is 'reinventing the wheel'. Could you explain?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2021
There is not just one type of wheel. Wheels are reinvented all the time.
Elf in The Witcher:
There is not just one type of wheel. Wheels are reinvented all the time.
Elf in The Witcher:
Yes, and it's not canon. Don't link something that is breaking the books canon. Which btw Netflix did far more than the games.
Like honestly, idgaf about what Netflix added with their show, it's not a valid way to prove your point. If not for the fact that Sapkowski cares more about the money than moderating other mediums which adapt his work, Netflix show would be completely different and the games would be quite different as well. In the end, even though he doesn't moderate adaptations of his work, it doesn't make them canon either way
There is not just one type of wheel. Wheels are reinvented all the time.
Elf in The Witcher:
Yes, and it's not canon. Don't link something that is breaking the books canon. Which btw Netflix did far more than the games.
Like honestly, idgaf about what Netflix added with their show, it's not a valid way to prove your point. If not for the fact that Sapkowski cares more about the money than moderating other mediums which adapt his work, Netflix show would be completely different and the games would be quite different as well. In the end, even though he doesn't moderate adaptations of his work, it doesn't make them canon either way
It's written by a white polish man. Obviously 'I perceive most things of my homeland white' happens. Once other minds get involved with something ideas change according to the participating minds. The more something is allowed to exist the more 'normal' it starts to seem because the only reason it's 'weird' to you is unfamiliarity. I have never even considered 'making my elves tan consistently in every character creator I use and play elf' for the past two decades to be 'not in canon' until.... Today? Because you all noted 'it's not canon'?
Small print leads to large risks.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
How is The Witcher not canon?
I guess the LOTR movies aren't canon, either.
It's not about money... it's about fair representation of diversity.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Also, I find armours changing to racials not only a waste of resources but it kills the immersion. I would prefer to loot some fool of a red player, nick his armour from his corpse and wear it as a trophy, which won't be possible since it will insta change to my racial armour
Totally agree and this is something I haven’t taken the time to actually think about before. I thought “hm that’s interesting” in passing but never thought in depth like you have. Very peculiar, should we start a thread specifically to discuss this or is there one already?
Separate big thread
Would you mind pointing me to the right one?
I mean we make a separate one
OH, okay I can get on that if no one beats me to it later =D
There is not just one type of wheel. Wheels are reinvented all the time.
Elf in The Witcher:
Yes, and it's not canon. Don't link something that is breaking the books canon. Which btw Netflix did far more than the games.
Like honestly, idgaf about what Netflix added with their show, it's not a valid way to prove your point. If not for the fact that Sapkowski cares more about the money than moderating other mediums which adapt his work, Netflix show would be completely different and the games would be quite different as well. In the end, even though he doesn't moderate adaptations of his work, it doesn't make them canon either way
It's written by a white polish man. Obviously 'I perceive most things of my homeland white' happens. Once other minds get involved with something ideas change according to the participating minds. The more something is allowed to exist the more 'normal' it starts to seem because the only reason it's 'weird' to you is unfamiliarity. I have never even considered 'making my elves tan consistently in every character creator I use and play elf' for the past two decades to be 'not in canon' until.... Today? Because you all noted 'it's not canon'?
No. Netflix race swapped a lot of characters even tho they were not described as such. I dont give a damn about what you think honestly, but dont try to spin it into something that "supposedly" supports your point. Sapkowski explicitly said he allows the books to be put into other mediums because money. He fucked up 1 time with witcher and now he is all out with getting as much as possible. Don't use invalid points like that to support your points. Netflix is far too infamous with race swapping characters for "ticking boxes", and if you guys keep pushing the bullshit with Witcher I will just ignore your posts
There is not just one type of wheel. Wheels are reinvented all the time.
Elf in The Witcher:
Yes, and it's not canon. Don't link something that is breaking the books canon. Which btw Netflix did far more than the games.
Like honestly, idgaf about what Netflix added with their show, it's not a valid way to prove your point. If not for the fact that Sapkowski cares more about the money than moderating other mediums which adapt his work, Netflix show would be completely different and the games would be quite different as well. In the end, even though he doesn't moderate adaptations of his work, it doesn't make them canon either way
It's written by a white polish man. Obviously 'I perceive most things of my homeland white' happens. Once other minds get involved with something ideas change according to the participating minds. The more something is allowed to exist the more 'normal' it starts to seem because the only reason it's 'weird' to you is unfamiliarity. I have never even considered 'making my elves tan consistently in every character creator I use and play elf' for the past two decades to be 'not in canon' until.... Today? Because you all noted 'it's not canon'?
No. Netflix race swapped a lot of characters even tho they were not described as such. I dont give a damn about what you think honestly, but dont try to spin it into something that "supposedly" supports your point. Sapkowski explicitly said he allows the books to be put into other mediums because money. He fucked up 1 time with witcher and now he is all out with getting as much as possible. Don't use invalid points like that to support your points. Netflix is far too infamous with race swapping characters for "ticking boxes", and if you guys keep pushing the bullshit with Witcher I will just ignore your posts
Uhm..... Easy there mate. I am not using the Witcher for my argument at all. You could apply what I said to any work of art involving elves.
... if you guys keep pushing the bullshit with Witcher I will just ignore your posts
Art is art. The artist has control until he sells it.
Star Wars is a perfect example of that, and you can see Filoni and Favreau clawing back creative agency over the series instead of Kennedy. At the end of the day, 'canon' is just a box used to coral art. But it's an arbitrary box at best. Look at the randomness of the 'literary canon' - complete bs.
I love the Witcher, and I don't agree with everything that Netflix or even CDPR did, but it's not my art. That said, I'm not attached to their interpretation. Just like how I'm not attached to TSR/Forgotten Realms/WotC's perspective on black elves.
Looks like this went off the rails again with the "WE MUST FORCE THE DIVERSITY!" crowd.
ROFL. I mean, couldn't I flip that around to assert that enforcing arbitrary color restrictions on made up creatures is just as 'off the rails'? There can't be any orange trolls, red kobolds, purple quarlicans, turquoise Kenku, or pink gelatanous cubes ever because 'canon'!
Looks like this went off the rails again with the "WE MUST FORCE THE DIVERSITY!" crowd.
ROFL. I mean, couldn't I flip that around to assert that enforcing arbitrary color restrictions on made up creatures is just as 'off the rails'? There can't be any orange trolls, red kobolds, purple quarlicans, turquoise Kenku, or pink gelatanous cubes ever because 'canon'!
What?
I stated in my previous comments that there shouldnt be a restriction on a players ability to make their characters as they want because in the end it doesn't affect the games lore and a player should be able to enjoy their character. That being said, Canon should be respected in a story telling aspect, In other words, if it is describe as such, then it is that way, and forcing diversity upon it in a retelling just for the sake of diversity is just people trying to self insert when they don't need to.
A great example is Gods of Egypt. There was no reason a single ethnically european or slavic person should have been playing a role as an extra let alone the main characters. Stuff like that shouldn't happen, but by the logic of forced Diversity, it should be just fine to have a white dude playing an egyptian god.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Wait. How do we know what the gods of Egypt actually looked like?
What is "forced diversity"?
That is truly off the rails.
I don't need to quibble about whether or not anyone was "being racist"... but Merek was advocating for systemic racism. If someone advocated for gender-locked classes, I would be talking about systemic sexism.
WTF? All I'm advocating for is the races to be genuinely unique, again, what's the point if the only thing that's different about them is their starting stats? I think races that have unique customization options keep the game fresh. If every Elf, Orc or Dwarf you bump into look identical to each other, the world gets a bit bland. I'm sure certain hairstyles or beards would be interchangeable but the core physical attributes that make up each race should stay unique.
Elves are depicted as black in The Witcher series. Not sure why elves have to be pigeon-holed just because folks grooved Tolkien's depiction (and Edmund Spencer before him). I always thought there would be a natural connection to the Dragonlance Wild Elves and the native tribes in the Americas. Drow aren't a thing in Verra, so there's no reason to restrict a broad spectrum of skin tones.
Because Netflix likes to pander, just like Blizzard, when they suddenly let Blood Elves be dark-skinned because of a loud minority. It's the same as asking for Redguards to be light-skinned because, "I don't care, I can't play THIS specific race unless they're made in my image!".
The Kaelar should be able to have a nice, healthy tan that one would see in your average Greek. However, they shouldn't be able to achieve the dark skin tone that's unique to the Vaelune. If this is too much, why don't Intrepid just merge them and create a 'culture' sub-category for character creation? Leave the Human race as one, generic 'Aela'. But, If they did that, we'd probably end up with a Baldurs Gate 3 situation.
I know we are both on the same side of this issue for different reasons.
I don't think me asking for more customization or you asking to be able to make a character that looks like you are examples of "forced diversity".
Forced diversity in Ashes would be the Devs deciding that an amount of NPCs in Ashes are going to have a skin color, and they are going to make a big deal about it every time you talk to them. They would do this, so they can try and change your mind about an ideology you may or may not have.
From what I understand, this is not something anybody is asking for.
Comments
Agreed, I love Lineage 2 to death, but this is Steven taking things from his favorite MMORPG to a fault.
Not only does it hurt immersion and is a waste of resources, like you said. It also is extremely out of touch with current MMORPG player desires.
I am not the average casual player, but I at least understand that many people in MMORPGs consider character appearance to be a huge part of their end-game. These restrictions are dated and will hold Ashes back in the long run for sure.
I would not be surprised if I have to track this post down in 2024 because people complained to the point that they fixed had to go back and fix it.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I understand that but this game doesn’t have drow. It just has elitist elves (high elves) and nature (wood) elves. So why lock them out from using a full range of natural skin tones, since there is no drow in the game to use if they want a dark skinned elf? Doesn’t hurt me either way, but logically I see no issue with having the options.
Totally agree and this is something I haven’t taken the time to actually think about before. I thought “hm that’s interesting” in passing but never thought in depth like you have. Very peculiar, should we start a thread specifically to discuss this or is there one already?
Separate big thread
Because a dark skinned elf that isn't a drow will not feel like an elf. Outside of drow, elves are never depicted as black. Reinventing the wheel never works well
What you mean is that MMORPGs have not caught up. It's about time they do.
"It's 'always' been that way" is not a valid excuse.
Would you mind pointing me to the right one?
I mean we make a separate one
Reinvented as in WotC made an originally unplayable race, playable because everyone wanted to be Drizzt
Really had nothing to do with Drizzt.
Incorrect. It was added by Netflix. Writer f the show or whatever the name of role is, didn't like how most ppl in Witcher world are white even tho its slavic setting. Elves in witcher never were black.
Why reinvent the wheel tho? Reinventing the wheel leads nowhere.
Elf in The Witcher:
Yes, and it's not canon. Don't link something that is breaking the books canon. Which btw Netflix did far more than the games.
Like honestly, idgaf about what Netflix added with their show, it's not a valid way to prove your point. If not for the fact that Sapkowski cares more about the money than moderating other mediums which adapt his work, Netflix show would be completely different and the games would be quite different as well. In the end, even though he doesn't moderate adaptations of his work, it doesn't make them canon either way
It's written by a white polish man. Obviously 'I perceive most things of my homeland white' happens. Once other minds get involved with something ideas change according to the participating minds. The more something is allowed to exist the more 'normal' it starts to seem because the only reason it's 'weird' to you is unfamiliarity. I have never even considered 'making my elves tan consistently in every character creator I use and play elf' for the past two decades to be 'not in canon' until.... Today? Because you all noted 'it's not canon'?
I guess the LOTR movies aren't canon, either.
It's not about money... it's about fair representation of diversity.
OH, okay I can get on that if no one beats me to it later =D
No. Netflix race swapped a lot of characters even tho they were not described as such. I dont give a damn about what you think honestly, but dont try to spin it into something that "supposedly" supports your point. Sapkowski explicitly said he allows the books to be put into other mediums because money. He fucked up 1 time with witcher and now he is all out with getting as much as possible. Don't use invalid points like that to support your points. Netflix is far too infamous with race swapping characters for "ticking boxes", and if you guys keep pushing the bullshit with Witcher I will just ignore your posts
Uhm..... Easy there mate. I am not using the Witcher for my argument at all. You could apply what I said to any work of art involving elves.
Art is art. The artist has control until he sells it.
Star Wars is a perfect example of that, and you can see Filoni and Favreau clawing back creative agency over the series instead of Kennedy. At the end of the day, 'canon' is just a box used to coral art. But it's an arbitrary box at best. Look at the randomness of the 'literary canon' - complete bs.
I love the Witcher, and I don't agree with everything that Netflix or even CDPR did, but it's not my art. That said, I'm not attached to their interpretation. Just like how I'm not attached to TSR/Forgotten Realms/WotC's perspective on black elves.
ROFL. I mean, couldn't I flip that around to assert that enforcing arbitrary color restrictions on made up creatures is just as 'off the rails'? There can't be any orange trolls, red kobolds, purple quarlicans, turquoise Kenku, or pink gelatanous cubes ever because 'canon'!
What?
I stated in my previous comments that there shouldnt be a restriction on a players ability to make their characters as they want because in the end it doesn't affect the games lore and a player should be able to enjoy their character.
A great example is Gods of Egypt. There was no reason a single ethnically european or slavic person should have been playing a role as an extra let alone the main characters. Stuff like that shouldn't happen, but by the logic of forced Diversity, it should be just fine to have a white dude playing an egyptian god.
What is "forced diversity"?
That is truly off the rails.
WTF? All I'm advocating for is the races to be genuinely unique, again, what's the point if the only thing that's different about them is their starting stats? I think races that have unique customization options keep the game fresh. If every Elf, Orc or Dwarf you bump into look identical to each other, the world gets a bit bland. I'm sure certain hairstyles or beards would be interchangeable but the core physical attributes that make up each race should stay unique.
Because Netflix likes to pander, just like Blizzard, when they suddenly let Blood Elves be dark-skinned because of a loud minority. It's the same as asking for Redguards to be light-skinned because, "I don't care, I can't play THIS specific race unless they're made in my image!".
The Kaelar should be able to have a nice, healthy tan that one would see in your average Greek. However, they shouldn't be able to achieve the dark skin tone that's unique to the Vaelune. If this is too much, why don't Intrepid just merge them and create a 'culture' sub-category for character creation? Leave the Human race as one, generic 'Aela'. But, If they did that, we'd probably end up with a Baldurs Gate 3 situation.
That term has no official definition, but I think this quick video does a reasonable job of showing how most people feel about "forced diversity".
I know we are both on the same side of this issue for different reasons.
I don't think me asking for more customization or you asking to be able to make a character that looks like you are examples of "forced diversity".
Forced diversity in Ashes would be the Devs deciding that an amount of NPCs in Ashes are going to have a skin color, and they are going to make a big deal about it every time you talk to them. They would do this, so they can try and change your mind about an ideology you may or may not have.
From what I understand, this is not something anybody is asking for.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.