Crowd control should not be based on RNG

i just dont like the idea where you pray that your CC actually hits or not, and im not talking about balancing right now, this is about CC. Not what class has it or not, but if it should be guaranteed hit or not.

if its guaranteed = skills matter more than RNG
if its not (like it is now in alpha) = if you have bad luck you will die to the on who has better luck.

toughts?

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truelyyy

After much deliberation I agree having RnG on CC moves makes for unfullfilling combat and people won't like it. If you are going in for a CC + burst DPS combo you dont want to have to have that based on luck. If the other side actively does something to prevent it that's a different matter.

Noaani

This depends.

If it is RNG with no modifiers, I agree it is bad.

However, if there are modifiers that players have control of (specific stats that increase the chance for CC to land, and other stats to increase your chances of having them not), then it is no longer just about RNG and is now about player preparation and build - two key things that set RPG's above other games.

Khronus

RNG in any game sucks. With boss fights, it's acceptable but when it comes to pvp, you need to be able to rely on your expectations to play a balanced game. I don't even consider crit% to be rng because in the grand scheme of things, you can calculate damage enough to know wtf you're doing.

Guli

Noaani wrote: »

This depends.

If it is RNG with no modifiers, I agree it is bad.

However, if there are modifiers that players have control of (specific stats that increase the chance for CC to land, and other stats to increase your chances of having them not), then it is no longer just about RNG and is now about player preparation and build - two key things that set RPG's above other games.

im sorry but, even if you increase the % for the CC to land its still rng unless its 100%. it will be painful in pvp if you do everything perfectly but your 1 and only CC does not land.

Noaani

Guli wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

This depends.

If it is RNG with no modifiers, I agree it is bad.

However, if there are modifiers that players have control of (specific stats that increase the chance for CC to land, and other stats to increase your chances of having them not), then it is no longer just about RNG and is now about player preparation and build - two key things that set RPG's above other games.

im sorry but, even if you increase the % for the CC to land its still rng unless its 100%. it will be painful in pvp if you do everything perfectly but your 1 and only CC does not land.

Yes it will be painful.

So create a better build.

If you are playing a game where there is reason for CC not landing, and you run a build with only one CC, when it fails, you only have yourself to blame.

Guli

Noaani wrote: »

Guli wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

This depends.

If it is RNG with no modifiers, I agree it is bad.

However, if there are modifiers that players have control of (specific stats that increase the chance for CC to land, and other stats to increase your chances of having them not), then it is no longer just about RNG and is now about player preparation and build - two key things that set RPG's above other games.

im sorry but, even if you increase the % for the CC to land its still rng unless its 100%. it will be painful in pvp if you do everything perfectly but your 1 and only CC does not land.

Yes it will be painful.

So create a better build.

If you are playing a game where there is reason for CC not landing, and you run a build with only one CC, when it fails, you only have yourself to blame.

uhhh? what?

Noaani

Guli wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Guli wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

This depends.

If it is RNG with no modifiers, I agree it is bad.

However, if there are modifiers that players have control of (specific stats that increase the chance for CC to land, and other stats to increase your chances of having them not), then it is no longer just about RNG and is now about player preparation and build - two key things that set RPG's above other games.

im sorry but, even if you increase the % for the CC to land its still rng unless its 100%. it will be painful in pvp if you do everything perfectly but your 1 and only CC does not land.

Yes it will be painful.

So create a better build.

If you are playing a game where there is reason for CC not landing, and you run a build with only one CC, when it fails, you only have yourself to blame.

uhhh? what?

Which part did you not understand?

CROW3

% resist to stun on Player A naturally creates RNG when Player B attempts to stun Player A.

I'm ok with that level of RNG, because you can mitigate a core fundamental to RPGs - dice.

Guli

Noaani wrote: »

Guli wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Guli wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

This depends.

If it is RNG with no modifiers, I agree it is bad.

However, if there are modifiers that players have control of (specific stats that increase the chance for CC to land, and other stats to increase your chances of having them not), then it is no longer just about RNG and is now about player preparation and build - two key things that set RPG's above other games.

im sorry but, even if you increase the % for the CC to land its still rng unless its 100%. it will be painful in pvp if you do everything perfectly but your 1 and only CC does not land.

Yes it will be painful.

So create a better build.

If you are playing a game where there is reason for CC not landing, and you run a build with only one CC, when it fails, you only have yourself to blame.

uhhh? what?

Which part did you not understand?

Nvm

Dygz

I guess that's what you get for wanting PvP in an RPG.
RPGs weren't designed for PvP.
And, yeah, if it's gonna come down to character skills v player twitch skills - character skills should trump.
Ashes combat will always have some RNG - because it's an RPG.
Action combat will have less RNG than Tab Target.

Guli

Dygz wrote: »

I guess that's what you get for wanting PvP in an RPG.
RPGs weren't designed for PvP.
And, yeah, if it's gonna come down to character skills v player twitch skills - character skills should trump.
Ashes combat will always have some RNG - because it's an RPG.
Action combat will have less RNG than Tab Target.

not sure what it has to do with it being an RPG, at least when you play DND you maybe get a story for why your CC missed.

truelyyy

Dygz wrote: »

I guess that's what you get for wanting PvP in an RPG.
RPGs weren't designed for PvP.
And, yeah, if it's gonna come down to character skills v player twitch skills - character skills should trump.
Ashes combat will always have some RNG - because it's an RPG.
Action combat will have less RNG than Tab Target.

That’s what you get for wanting pvp in an RPG, wtf is that supposed to mean? PvP is core to AoC design.

truelyyy

Also the argument about builds will be pretty obsolete because good pvp player will always max attack disable and defence disable so it’s down to a lot of RnG again

HumblePuffin

Don’t most mmorpgs have PvP in them? I distinctly remember murdering and getting myself murdered back in Ultima when I was 10.

I’m also not totally onboard with the percent chances especially tied to gear. Unless PvE mobs frequently are using CC this would basically be creating PvP gear. Feels a lot like resilience from WoW but with CC instead of crit/dots.

I really preferred my initial assumptions on how they would do CC where it would be primarily skill shot based. At least that way if it misses you got outplayed.

Dygz

RPGs were not designed for PvP.
MMORPGs typically had PvP in them as an after-thought.
MMORPGs are RPGs before they are PvP games... and RNG is a fundamental element of RPGs.
Gamers wanted MMORPGs to have PvP - which they weren't really designed for - and that's why there are then complaints about class nerfs and re-balancing of 1v1 PvP combat....and RNG.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

MMORPGs typically have PvP in them as an after-thought.
They are RPGs before they are PvP games... and RNG is a fundamental element of RPGs.

So, since PvP is one of the first things in Ashes, does that mean it is not an RPG?

JamesSunderland

The problem with RNG CC vs Non-RNG CC is because they require different types of balancing and how good they work in a game depends alot in the pace of the game and it's killtime, that being said RNG CC is a powerful nerf to the natural powerlevel of Hard-CCs and Hard-CC locks.

But i will have to add that its not only:
"if its guaranteed = skills matter more than RNG
if its not (like it is now in alpha) = if you have bad luck you will die to the on who has better luck."
But also:
if its guaranteed = it's predictable and your next skill is guaranteed which makes Hard CC lock a thing
(Not considering Instant CC removal or CC immunity skills)
if its not = if you have bad luck you have to improvise on the fly, maybe use another CC right after? follow-up? Disengage? Reposition? Do you try to build more CC chance or more CC resist?

Guli

JamesSunderland wrote: »

The problem with RNG CC vs Non-RNG CC is because they require different types of balancing and how good they work in a game depends alot in the pace of the game and it's killtime, that being said RNG CC is a powerful nerf to the natural powerlevel of Hard-CCs and Hard-CC locks.

But i will have to add that its not only:
"if its guaranteed = skills matter more than RNG
if its not (like it is now in alpha) = if you have bad luck you will die to the on who has better luck."
But also:
if its guaranteed = it's predictable and your next skill is guaranteed which makes Hard CC lock a thing
(Not considering Instant CC removal or CC immunity skills)
if its not = if you have bad luck you have to improvise on the fly, maybe use another CC right after? follow-up? Disengage? Reposition? Do you try to build more CC chance or more CC resist?

all im trying to say tbh is the game will be less frustrating the less rng there is.

Noaani

JamesSunderland wrote: »

The problem with RNG CC vs Non-RNG CC is because they require different types of balancing and how good they work in a game depends alot in the pace of the game and it's killtime, that being said RNG CC is a powerful nerf to the natural powerlevel of Hard-CCs and Hard-CC locks.

But i will have to add that its not only:
"if its guaranteed = skills matter more than RNG
if its not (like it is now in alpha) = if you have bad luck you will die to the on who has better luck."
But also:
if its guaranteed = it's predictable and your next skill is guaranteed which makes Hard CC lock a thing
(Not considering Instant CC removal or CC immunity skills)
if its not = if you have bad luck you have to improvise on the fly, maybe use another CC right after? follow-up? Disengage? Reposition? Do you try to build more CC chance or more CC resist?

I've never been a subscriber to the notion that removing RNG makes player skill matter more.

The only way this is accurate is if you consider "player skill" and "player ability to memorize one specific combination of abilities and then reproduce that" to be synonymous with each other.

As you state above, with an element of RNG in combat, players need to think, re-evaluate, calculate. Any one of these demonstrates more player skill than repeating an ability combination.

Involving an element of RNG in to the game also means players are given more options on how to create a build than without it, as I have yet to come across an RNG element in an RPG's combat system that both the attacker and defender couldn't influence.

Games with hit chance RNG allow players to increase their chance to hit, and to increase their chance to avoid. Games with crits allow players to increase their crit chance, and often the amount of additional damage a crit does. Players often also have the ability to increase their resistance to crit hits, both in terms of reducing the chance they will take one, and reducing the additional damage they do when the player does get hit by one.

The same is often the case for CC.

This added RNG doesn't reduce the need for player skill at all. What it does is it enhances the value of player skill in building their character (do I want a higher chance of my CC's landing, a higher chance of others CC's not landing on me, more CC's to cast, more CC breaks, etc). In terms of RPG's, character build is a key aspect of player skill (even if in some popular games it is expected that you just follow someone else's build).

However, that RNG, coupled with that build strategy, combine to give the player options in combat. With no RNG, the "option" is to cast their CC on the target. Not a lot of player skill in that. With RNG, they have the option of casting their CC on their target, but then need to have a backup plan in mind for if that fails.

How people can say the no RNG situation elevates player skill is beyond me.

Noaani

Guli wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

The problem with RNG CC vs Non-RNG CC is because they require different types of balancing and how good they work in a game depends alot in the pace of the game and it's killtime, that being said RNG CC is a powerful nerf to the natural powerlevel of Hard-CCs and Hard-CC locks.

But i will have to add that its not only:
"if its guaranteed = skills matter more than RNG
if its not (like it is now in alpha) = if you have bad luck you will die to the on who has better luck."
But also:
if its guaranteed = it's predictable and your next skill is guaranteed which makes Hard CC lock a thing
(Not considering Instant CC removal or CC immunity skills)
if its not = if you have bad luck you have to improvise on the fly, maybe use another CC right after? follow-up? Disengage? Reposition? Do you try to build more CC chance or more CC resist?

all im trying to say tbh is the game will be less frustrating the less rng there is.

Less frustrating I can agree with.

But - if the game gives players the means to increase the chances of there CC's landing, that gives players an avenue to deal with that frustration.

I mean, it's frustrating when I don't have good enough gear to kill a mob I want to kill. Rather than complaining about that, I go out and get better gear, then kill the mob.

If CC's not landing is often a source of frustration to you, go out and get better gear to make your CC's land, or create a better build for that than what you have.

Player frustration isn't something to be designed out of a game, it is something to give players a means to progress around.

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