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Your thoughts on the target player base for AoC?
CROW3
Member
Watched Jahlon's take on the primary audience for AoC earlier today. The phrase 'AoC isn't for everyone' is pretty common across our discussions, so I'm curious on your thoughts on the question of 'Who is AoC made for?'
My 2 cents is that AoC is targeted toward a blend of orignal EQ/UO players, L2/Archage players, and the more hardcore WoW raiding/pvp players. A secondary target would be the casuals from FFXIV & BDO & maybe (?) the more mainstream WoW PvE / PvP guilds. I don't think it's relying on subs from WoW casuals (though I think it's possible these folks will flow in and out of the game).
What do you think? What are the implications of who you think the target player base is on core features?
My 2 cents is that AoC is targeted toward a blend of orignal EQ/UO players, L2/Archage players, and the more hardcore WoW raiding/pvp players. A secondary target would be the casuals from FFXIV & BDO & maybe (?) the more mainstream WoW PvE / PvP guilds. I don't think it's relying on subs from WoW casuals (though I think it's possible these folks will flow in and out of the game).
What do you think? What are the implications of who you think the target player base is on core features?
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These players probably exist. I don't expect that myself, and people like myself, are quite that rare. They just play different games because no one has seriously ever made a Fantasy MMO of this scale for precisely that player type.
And I mean precisely.
Simulator style MMOs tend to be space games or nonfantasy medieval style combat, with not much inbetween. Certainly nothing at the scope Ashes has. If anyone knows one, let me know. Sandbox MMOs don't give structure for all those warring guilds to actually stick to. The drama is the point, and this slowly pushes out crafters, gatherers, etc. Or they are never brought in.
Ashes is 'for precisely who they keep saying they are for'. People who want some community, some interdependence, that isn't just a themepark ride, but where you have multiple progression paths. Their biggest problem might be breaking people's expectations.
Why does a casual player or a PvE player run a dungeon? Because it's something to do, most of the time. To pass the time with friends. MMOs have lots of content, but so much of it is just 'something to do' that people get used to this.
I think Ashes' biggest hurdle will be getting people to understand and feel that they aren't helpless just because they aren't the top, or because they can be defeated or even 'can't stand up to a stronger player or big guild'. There are times when the world of Verra might be relatively at peace for months at a time due to no one feeling like having a serious conflict or shaking up the status quo.
But I think it's possible to get and even retain a lot of the so called 'casual' and 'PvE only' crowds if one can only get through the initial gankfest. I'd even outright suggest to those people 'hey wait 3 months and join then' and 'consider the top players to be the storyline NPCs at that point'. Framing is the most important thing in MMO enjoyment for a game like this.
If the economy works, people will flow in and out. If it fails, so will a bunch of other things.
The PvE side of the MMORPG'S is much, much larger than the PvP side of the MMORPG's. Taking that into consideration with the game being a PvX game, there is going to be quite a lot of players who will focus around the PvE node community side of the game and participate more in the gated PvP like sieges more than the other options for PvP.
It's not a bad thing per se, but it's definitely going to interest many players from PvE MMORPG'S like WoW and FFXIV. Sure they have PvP in them, but that is not their focus in terms of audience and design.
AoC will be more community based but it's still going to cater to the PvE side which will participate in the PvP at some point or another either directly or indirectly.
They dont really have a choice if their node get a declaration around it for a gated event. Defend it or lose it.
Many of those in the PvE side of the spectrum are more used to experiencing gated PvP like battlegrounds where they queue up or it's based around a time the event occurs.
That's where the "it's not for everyone" part comes in to the design.
There are players who get discouraged from losing, especially losing something that took a while to build, farm etc.
So it will be a game for players who like to do that. Almost a sandbox like experience perhaps.
You don't "lose a lot of stuff" in a Siege.
You have to rebuild, but there are blueprints.
I think Ashes has some good fundamental systems to guide solo-minded players into more group-minded gameplay where they aren't immediately eaten by bigger fish over and over. With their current plans, I think hardcore solo players will need some thick skin to enjoy the game, while players who enjoy working together with others will thrive.
to some of those players, spending that time etc is losing a lot.
With the mention of being able to raid the freeholds upon victory for x amount of time could be deterring as well.
the node you once was part of, is gone, youll have to start a new node, find a new node, is there room for your guild to be part of it? different tiers of nodes house different amounts of guilds etc.
Sure they could be rebuilt in a few weeks or so, assuming nodes beside you don't gate your progression because they're higher level beside you and you're potentially surrounded which may prevent you from getting up to certain levels.
Becoming part of the vassals and their influence could change quite a bit especially if you were on top of the food chain for a while.
In a way, you do lose a lot of stuff in that sense. You'll still have to spend the time and what not to get back to where you once were either as a node or as a guild unless you decide to split.
Rebuilding, farming and trading is the game as it builds node progression and allows players to craft. Many players from those communities may not be in favour of that style of gameplay so yes, it's not for everyone.
Items in the warehouses etc are lost with the node.
Yes the players may not "lose" their items but they still lose a lot while the attackers whom have won get lots of certificates to cash in.
Then I believe there is gating for sieges even more, so if you win or lose (depending on attacker or defender) you cant be attacked for x amount of days or whatnot. Gives those nodes plenty of times to cash in and craft.
The game is quite heavily in PvE in regards to crafting in that sense with the nodes warring in PvP.
Completely, agree - I'm curious because I don't know if there is a discrete answer right now. Everyone's going to have their thoughts that can challenge our assumptions about player audience.
There's always that artist's perspective on gaming which goes something like "I wanted to make a game that I wanted to play for hours and hours..' My sister is a film producer and has said this about films as well - I wanted to make a movie that I want to watch. Totally valid, but when it comes to broadly monetizing the business behind the game, how do you calibrate the consumer segment that will keep the lights on and fund new content.
Who is AOC for? Everyone that is willing to put in a little effort , grow and get better. Who is it not for quitters.
Leave with these.
I agree with Eric in both of these videos.
lmao, kind of true in a way.
Is it targeted towards action or tab players? Is it targeting competitive progression raiders at all? We don't know the answers to those yet, depends on decisions they make going forward.
Archeage and Lineage 2 players definitely have a target square on their back. I think they're targeting the pvp crowd, the open world crowd, the crafting crowd, the competitive guild vs guild crowd, the world building/exploration crowd. I think it's targeting the pve crowd, there will be quests, dungeons, world bosses. We just don't know the extent to which they're targeting the more hardcore pve'rs yet.
And they're targeting the immersion crowd. This is going to be one of the most immersive mmo's ever. I feel extremely targeted.
These are great. I've never heard this guy before - thanks for linking + weighing in. I appreciate the 'freshness' of struggle and not having my hand held in an MMORPG (and not being inundated with the daily login reward BS).
Pay very very very close attention to 2:38-4:20.
This I believe is another giant problem as well. I am also older and there were a ton of games I never beat. Some took way skills I don't have. FPS games for example I am terrible at them. Playing Descent way back when. I could never find my way out. Years later playing with a friend of mine he asked me "Why you flying upside down?" I never realized I was upside down I fixed it and still couldn't get out. I didn't cry about it. I did what I could and moved on.
The point is so many people think just because they got the game they should not face any challenge and still have all the goodies.
I personally like the challenge and if I can't complete it GOOD! That means I still have room to grow.
"The worst thing a person can do is reach all their goals. That means they didn't set their sights high enough."
Something unsaid in this video, but relevant for AoC is that one of the reasons "AAA Game Studios" cater to a softening-core audience is pretty clear: quarterly earnings reports. That's the real 'dopamine hit' that drives cash shops, daily rewards, and content spoon fed to players. The wrong metrics are being used to measure value, and that has a continuous feedback into the games we see. One of the advantages to AoC is Steven's personal investment into the game, disconnecting quarterly expectations from development progress and the gameplay, such that the value we actually care about becomes the value Intrepid measures.
I watched these videos earlier, glad to see other people around here also understand these things! *fist bump*
Edit: Kind of needs it's own separate thread, but my response to that in his video.
I agree with maybe limiting the forced grouping quests, especially in the early and mid levels. I don't agree with the complete 180 on open/instanced dungeons. Complete 180, complete flipping of the numbers from 80/20 open/instanced to 80/20 instanced/open. I could write a book on why that's a bad idea, not going to type it all out here though. Core principle risk vs reward implications and far more. Even the concession I guess to pvp players of making world bosses open pvp zones affects risk vs reward. Conscientious pvp players don't want world bosses to become free for all, last man standing, gankfests. We want the risk vs reward to be present in world bosses, same as dungeons. If you want me to not be there for the world boss kill, you should flag up and try to get rid of me. And you should bear all the risks of that, you flagged up, you're open to attack from others for doing so, you killed me, you took the corruption hit. 80/20 to 20/80 is a radical change, and would radically change the game. Maybe it lures some WoW raiders who otherwise wouldn't have come. Maybe it's a better financial decision for Intrepid. But I don't think that's why were here, for a game that cheapens its core principles to attract money. I think the game can attract more than enough people to be successful without that.
The fun is in the journey, not the destination.
And I like it. Stick to your vision Intrepid.
Lazy Peons video about Ashes of creation having 2.5 million views there's a big enough audience of hardcore, midcore and time but not gameplay casual players interested in the game.
I think we should start informing people that this game is not for everyone, but try something new that you may like.
And if they lash back with AoC will lose money tell them that if money was the focus, there are other ways to make it
Nevertheless, it's true. The very people who have the phrase weaponized against them have proposed changes that would make the game not for me, or not for someone else.
At the end of the day, it won't be for everyone, same for every game in the history of ever. May end up not being for me. I'm fully aware of the fact that at any point Steven could sell out, "go Hollywood", go mainstream for the $$$.
I'm also aware that he could hold to his vision and set a new standard, a new mainstream.
I agree with the first half of this, and completely disagree with the second.
Archeage is basically the game that Ashes will target players from.
Some L2 players may come along, but most L2 players played Archeage anyway - there are like 8 that didn't that are still playing MMO's.
Ashes isn't going to pull players from WoW, FFXIV or the EQ franchise. People playing those games play them for the PvE, and Ashes PvE is going to be sub-par (to be kind). People aren't going to leave a game with PvE they like for a game with PvE as it's third tier content type (world building, PvP, PvE).
While Steven pays lip service to immersion, that doesn't mean a whole lot. I've yet to see any reason to think you could get more immersed in Ashes than in any other MMO - if that's your jam.
So, to me, Ashes is targeting ex-Archeage players and basically no one else.
I disagree with the WoW, FFXIV/EQ part. They'll pull from many games as the PvX genre is going to hit a lot of boxes especially considering many streamers come from those games or are playing those games in the MMORPG demographic.
Considering it's a Node Vs Node Crafting PvX MMORPG, It is going to cater to many.
Is it going to scratch the itch for "hardcore" PvE dungeon and raid players? maybe not
some of those games communities do not just PvE.
then you got the gamers who like all the bells and whistles of mount collecting, transmogrifications, sitting in town doing nothing because at the end of the day, it's how they want to play the game.
PvE players can make a big presence in a PvX game especially if they dont mind some PvP.
then you got the players who like to craft but will have to participate in PvE or PvP in order to get materials or items so they can survive while out doing crafting things. It's not like crafters are a class in this game design, it's a profession to expand on your character with.
it's all based around a node community and developing it as a team. I think you'd be more surprised especially if Intrepid can deliver on goals.
how many will stick around? hard to determine
with no box price and a subscription, I bet many will be willing to try the game especially with streamers interested in it.
Streamers are not going to stick to Ashes, as they are literally painting a target on their back while streaming. Either they have a massive posse with them while streaming in order to do any content (which would kill the entertainment value of their streams and thus hurt their income), or they simply can't actually get any content done due to being under constant attack (which would kill the entertainment value of their streams and thus hurt their income).
A streamer in Ashes absolutely has to be PvP focused, and so the streamers from WoW simply won't make the transition.
It is absolutely not going to appeal to anyone that puts PvE first - even if they are fans of PvP. In Ashes, world building is first, PvP is second, PvE is a distant third. That right there will pull ~80% of the MMO population out of the game.
PvE players absolutely can make a big presence in MMO's - that is what the bulk of the MMO population actually do (basically all of WoW, FFXIV, both EQ's, DDO, LotRO, most of ESO vs what, BDO and Albion?).
Thing is, in order to have good PvE content, PvE content needs to kind of be the focus of the game. Why would PvE players come in numbers to a game that doesn't value PvE content?
As to people in other games with collections - they aren't likely to leave their current collections behind.
People that like sitting around town - they won't stay in Ashes when they realize that other players can (and will) just kill them.
Cloth, dyes, grinding stones, ingots, iron, leather, wood...
And resources.
I guess "a lot" is subjective.
Especially since only a portion becomes lootable.